WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT??? I am not of Mexican decent but I do know many Mexican who do migrate here to earn an honest living, and yes they in some cases may take away American jobs but mostly those are positions most of us American citizens are either to lazy or to proud to do. Now as far as you stating that immigrants are given something that belongs to American born children of the future, that doesn't make sense either because if it really belonged to them they will obtain just that. This country is built on fairness and the belief that everyone must be treated equally. If American children of thefuture have the criteria necessary to obtain the careers they seek the only way a non-American citizen can take that away from them is if they are more deserving due to their merits. Nothing in this country or anywhere in the world is free. By signing this bill in to law Arizona and everyone who supports it aren't really protecting the future of their children but they are supporting racial profiling. You know what this reminds me of??? Your comments and the comments of the Arizona gov. remind me of the Holocaust in Germany. When Hitler thought that he was protecting the future of the "true German people" by taking in those that "looked like they were Jewish" and imprisoning them until it was their time for the gas chamber. I have faith that the U.S.A will not allow it to get to that extreme, but think about it for a moment, how does someone "look like an illegal immigrant"? The mere fact that this is the basis for arrest in Arizona is appalling. It is unethical and it is ILLEGAL because yes it is racial profiling. Think of it this way...I am sure that there are many white or Caucasian looking illegal immigrants in this country but tell me this much do you HONESTLY believe for one second that any of them will be stopped and asked for paper??? I'm not saying it wont occur but what I am saying is that the majority and not just 51% it will probably be more like about 70% of the cases will be Hispanics or Hispanic looking cultures that will be stopped and arrested for not having the proper paper work with them. This is wrong on so many different levels that it is unbelievable to me that this atrocity made it into a bill much less a law!!!

Over time many societies degrade. The definite way to keep such social conditions on an upward track is to have more law enforcement and spying. Through the Greats: whether it be Soviet Russia under Stalin, China under the Communist Party, maybe Cambodia under “Pol Pot“. More army and police. We should embrace such tactics because now instead of the rats leaving first when the ship is going down. We are assured they will be there with us hanging on the hull making certain that we sink.

I am late to this party but I hope I can still offer an new annoying idea or two.

I learned long ago that "All feelings are true." that is to say that regardless of what you "know" is fact if you want to deal effectively with someone, anyone, (politician to your spouse), you need to keep in mind that their "feeling" is also true to them. It may seem that the Right has used the value of creating a set of "feelings" over "fact" in manipulating people to act in opposition even to their own benefit but you can't approach the "wrong" feelings simply by rational argument. (I know "rational" could be said to be in the eye of the beholder, I refer to widely accepted facts, stats, arguments, even their own sides facts, and stats).

The best approach I have found to this problem is to ask, Why? Then after the first response go a level deeper, Why? Ask yourself this as to any opinion you hold. Why is some immigration good and some bad? Then Why? again. etc.

I also use my Magic Wand.

Wendy, borrow my Magic Wand and wave away all illegal immigrants. What does your state look like? What do you do about the result?

I will ask a narrative question. Wendy says, "So, let's talk about Mexicans specifically. They come from a land of riches. Instead of reforming their country they come to ours and hurt it? " I could ask her why her ancestors came here instead of reforming their country. (I assume they came legally or before there were immigration laws). Should they have been allowed in legally instead of being turned back to reform their country? No? Why?

I will attempt a few "rational arguments in a separate post.

R

Random thoughts.

One possible use of the AZ law is to harass white supporters of any issue, Movement or political party not popular with the current state government, local law enforcement or the officer in the patrol car. A red haired, pasty skinned immigration lawyer could be repeatedly pulled over because he looks like an illegal Irish immigrant. A brown eyed, black haired Democratic Party voter registration worker could be arrested while working a Republican precinct. Or maybe just one cop doing another cop a favor and pulling over an ex-girlfriend.

The only reason Hispanics lead the percentage of illegal immigrants is geography. If China was across our southern border it would be a different non-white group. http://www.dhs.gov/xlibrary/assets/statistics/publications/ill_pe_2006.pdf

Immigration (legal and...), is effected by economics, if ours is in the crapper, immigration slows, if the country of origins economy is going great immigration slows. What impact has Free trade had on this?

Both legal and illegal immigration has been fought by Unions in the past. Our messed up immigration policy DOES negatively effect income, union and non union. Magically eliminating illegals would increase Unions power (Have Right To Work supporters considered this?)

Would you get in to the US today if you were trying to leave one of the countries of your ancestors?

What would happen if we eliminated illegal immigration? Why not eliminate temporary immigration, (work Visas) or legal permanent immigration? Legal temporary or permanent immigration increases competition for jobs, at least at the start legal immigration increases social costs like uninsured persons, ESL classes, etc.

We have a nursing shortage so we allow foreign workers in to nurse us. Eliminate those Visas and the shortage would worsen but wages would be forced up drawing some former nurses back into the market and we would be forced to fund training of more nurses.

One solution pushed by Immigration Reformers is an increase in Guest Workers, shifting much of the manual labor sector from under to over the table. Are anti immigration business owners ready for that?

Would the magical elimination of immigrants help the private sector economically? How many illegal immigrants are in jobs that pay what we would consider a "living wage"? Would grape pickers, dairy workers, dish washers now make some serious money?

Immigration policy is political it has changed drastically over time because of public perceptions leading to pressure on politicians or pressure from economic institutions. The Bracero Program, "No Irish Need Apply", "Swarthy Europeans will contaminate our race.", the failure to open immigration to Jewish refugees before WWII. Would you support any of those policies today?

"Why don't they learn English?", the time it takes for acquisition of English as the primary language has shortened every couple of decades since the turn of the last century. ou can look it up. Perception has changed for many reasons including manipulation by the Right.

Every legal immigrant is seeking asylum, political, religious, economic, personal but laws decide which reason counts and who and how many people can use them. Cubans can get political asylum with some ease but not Dominicans, etc.

The strongest support for Open Immigration, (anyone can come except criminals), comes from some conservative quarters -

http://www.capitalismmagazine.com/politics/immigration/4620-Immigration-Quotas-Individual-Rights-The-Moral-and-Practical-Case-for-Open-Immigration.html

Libertarians do not have set policy -http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertarian_perspectives_on_immigration

http://www.cis.org/articles/1995/back395.html

http://www.kkeane.info/

RD

Yeah CYD it's definitely all those illegals and not I dunno say the Arizona electorate that elected a woman who's political consultancy and policy writing career has turned in better results than her crusade for "choice" and the blunder that is AIMS. But hey, I'm sure the National Center for Education Statistics doesn't have a clue either.

I don't understand why they keep saying everyone and everything is a discrimination to themselves. I am 64 years of age and since the age of 15 I have had a drivers license which has served as my identification which was to be produced at many locations for many reasons. So us AMERICANS have been carrying ID's for a longtime now and we don't preach discrimination when stopped and asked to produce such ID. Let's get real now people. There will always be people who will fight the system even when it is a right system. Hopefully the rest of the states will follow suit.

Wendy-

So, let's talk about Mexicans specifically. They come from a land of riches

This statement tells me you really don't know why illegal immigrants risk death to come across the border. I'm seeing a trend here, where some folks are trying to spread the misconception that ALL illegal immigrants are a threat to our safety and democracy etc. etc. (Think death panels). It is not true. The majority are good hard working people that have been exploited for their hard work and now are being demonized.

I remember reading excerpts from a book _Drug warriors and their Prey— a few years ago. It was the five steps to genocide: legislation, identification, marginalization, concentration, then extermination. Well now that Arizona has passed the bill. The police and politicians will have to identify the people that have to be under the long arm of the law. This is the most frightening thing I think I have seen in a long time. To make it a tad simple I shall describe Nazi Germany. First there was the legislation in 1938 that no Jews could own property. Then there was the task of identifying who was a Jew. So it was decided that anyone who had two Jewish Grandparents was a Jew. Then the night of broken windows. Concentration Camps and well extermination. On that note maybe now that Arizona has taken the first awful step they can follow that timeline and declare that anyone who has two Hispanic Grandparents is a Mexican.