Matt Finklestein and Chris Good point out another part of Mississippi Gov.Haley Barbour's interview with Human Events. Barbour had this to say about immigration:
Let me just tell you, I've had a different experience than perhaps some other governors. I don't know where we would have been in Mississippi after Katrina if it hadn't been for the Spanish speakers that came in to help rebuild, and there's no doubt in my mind that some of them weren't here legally. Some of them were, some of them weren't. But they came in, they looked for the work--if they hadn't been there, if they hadn't come and stayed for a few months or a couple of years, we would be way, way, way behind where we are now.
Every country--I don't care if it's the United States of America or Papua New Guinea, every country has gotta have a secure border. If you can't secure your border, you're not much of a country, and we've gotta secure our border. But we've gotta do so with the recognition that even in our lifetime we're gonna have a labor shortage in the United States. We don't want to be like Japan, where the aging population is supported by fewer and fewer and fewer and fewer.
So there's gotta be a way--a) we gotta secure the border, but b) we've got to work through how are we gonna make sure we've got the labor we need in the United States. H1B visas--a huge, huge thing. My idea is everybody from Stanford who's from India who gets a PhD, we oughtta stamp citizenship on his diploma, so instead of him going back to India and starting a business that employs 1,800 people, that he'll start a business that employs 1,800 people in Des Moines, Iowa, instead of India. A lot of this is just common sense, and common sense tells us we're not gonna take ten or twelve or fourteen million people and put them in jail and deport them. We're not gonna do it, and we need to quit--some of the people need to quit acting like we are, and let's talk about real solutions.
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Brilliant. Just brilliant. Promote immigration to flood the markets with those who can compete with America's own best and brightest. Drive down those high end wages. Genius. So evidently its only when immigrants are taking away fruit picking and meat processing jobs that America need get all up in arms about, huh?
Don I think this has been the real issue behind immigration all along. I think immigration is an attempt to lower wages on the middle and lower class. I think it's always been about that. But to be fair to Mr. Barbour- many Americans did not go into Mississippi to help rebuild after Katrina. Just like many did not go into Louisiana or any other part of the country. They may have if wages had been better, I don't know. Maybe us Americans are guilty, to whatever extent, of being too lazy to take care of ourselves so we have to outsource. I don't know that what he's saying is all too unreasonable overall. When we consider ourselves to not be in a recession or Great Recession we still average around 3-4% unemployment. Nobody panics until it gets up above 5% unemployment. That 3% average means we still have millions of Americans who are unemployed- and for the record these are not retirees, or students, or wounded veterans, or people in institutions, or stay at home moms or dads; these are people who would like to be employed but for whatever reason are not. It may be that people could be employed and take up the hard labour jobs and are just refusing, or it could be that there's a larger middle and lower class war going on that we're missing. At any rate, I appreciate that he's being realistic about not wanting to stop immigration. At least someone is.
I'm not arguing against immigration...exactly. I guess what I'm agitating for is more American college graduates. He is exactly right to want more immigrants into America. Our population, until the vets come home and start up another baby boom, is contracting. We need immigrants to fill jobs and pay taxes. No argument there.
O no I agree with that I mean I don't understand why you wouldn't prioritize Americans first...that's what I was trying to get at talking about those who're unemployed. Put everyone in America back to work first then worry about bringing in new immigrants, regardless of where they're coming from. Now don't confuse that for saying "we'll just ship everybody out" or anything, just saying whatever plan we come up with has to focus on Americans first, immigrants second.
Really, as I've stated elsewhere, the best way to get Americans working again is to provide tax incentives for employing Americans...not making butt loads of cash. This would strip tax breaks from companies that are highly profitable who operate factories overseas and call centers in India and reopen factories back home. Goods may cost more, but more people being paid competitve wages could afford it. More speople spending more money create more demand for goods and services which would employ more people. Christ this spiel is like an involuntary reflex for me. I'll be spouting this on my death bed!
THAT is how you create enough jobs to absorb immigrants and lower tax burden everywhere. The way we operate now is turning us into a 3rd world country with really neat toys.
Lol didn't mean to make you have a heart attack Don =). I think there are lots of tax incentives you could use to get employers to provide jobs for people and provide benefits. I think it's perfectly reasonable for the government to subsidize private business if it creates jobs- just not when it's subsidizing the David Koch's of the world.
That's what I mean- policy should be able to focus on doing both. You'd think eventually a politician would wake up and realise that, no?
For some reason this made me think of Rachel in the tank outside of Baghdad...Unggghhhhh
I'm really sorry we see eye to eye on this. Do you think we can get some grown ups to listen? I've tried contacting all manner of elected officials and public figures and so far no joy. Anyone got any ideas?
A cop friend once told me,"when a criminal starts his speel you stop listening and just lock him up!"
So you are satisfied with America becoming a 3rd world country? WAY behind France and Germany?
Here in Louisiana after Katrina, the feds took our workers..electricians (union workers) off of jobs..put Mexicans in..and did away with prevailing wage laws.
Tax breaks for each hire, help with health care...that will up employment.
Exactly. Presently we reward people and businesses for making big sums of money. That should stop. Reward them for employing Americans instead. Make the size of the benefit/ tax break contingent on the amount paid employees. Make it more profitable for companies to employ people than it is to ship jobs abroad or use automation.
But Don that would require that we reward people based on their contribution to society- and that would be socialcommugayism!
Damn those socialcommugayists!!!
Yeah, gotta keep them evil canadians out! Who is going to pick Haley's lettuce? I will bet you one hundred dollars that his maid is not Caucasian....... We need total immigration reform, that encompasses the entire spectrum of the issue. I think that people really forget that Ronald Regan had a amnesty program. You could build a million mile long, thousand foot high, fence across America, and is still not going to keep those evil (tongue in cheek enough for ya?) Canadians out... spreading their communistic hockey on us!
Does Gov Barbour realize the New Guinea is an island and its "borders" are therefore water?
Funny how he can tell that Spanish speakers are illegal. Did he actually check for citizenship??!! It actually sounds more like racial profiling or discrimination.
Just because a man is white and speaks English doesn't make him an Amercian Patriot or even an American!!!
Don't we have something like 8 of the top 10 universities in the world as well as a whole raft of other very very good schools? As part of an immigration reform program we should be exploiting that resource to attract and keep highly educated new citizens. We should also be making a better effort to recruit grad students from our native born citizens as well. Of course that would mean doing a better job of educating our inner city and rural students in a healthy public school system.
As far as I can see, the key to controlling illegal immigration is a set of much harsher laws dealing with employers. A little jail time would not be a bad thing. Isn't there an empty prison in Illinois, another empty one in Montana and I think one up in Michigan? No reason to leave those places empty when we have thousands and thousands of employers who think so little of the law and national security. If we applied the 'three strikes and you're out' law in these cases, it would fill those unused prisons right up. It would do a lot for the economies of those communities.
Oh, c'mon y'all, quit puttin' words in the Gov's mouth.
Haley may have been over-the-top revisionist stupid with his commentary the other day regarding race relations in "the new South," but here he's trying to express something a bit more subtle and a bit more touchy for mainstream Republicans to deal with. The Bush Administration wanted to center immigration legislation upon a path to citizenship for illegals, with Barbour's support and with the support of some of the other Southern Senators and Governors, until all this anti-Obama/Socialist/Party-of-NO fervor blew up. And whatever else he is, Governor Barbour is fervent about rebuilding Mississippi after Katrina...if he says he's grateful to the Latino workers who came into his state to help rebuild, he is.
Carolinaladywithafan;
You are WRONG about Haley Barbour real intent concerning Miss. As a Voter who has resided in Miss for more than 18 years I can tell you he is a liar and a hypocrite. His grandmother owned slaves for Christ's sake. He said slavery didn't mean and I quote "diddley." That is exactly how he feels too. The latino immigrants are worse off than most of the Minority's in Miss. They have NO voice and very few rights. If you lived in Miss, in most of the rural areas where minority's live, you will find that they are barely existing. So before you start agreeing that this man is speaking in favor of any minority please be aware that he is a very rich politician with designs on the Whitehouse. Coming from a ruby red state where minority's didn't get a voice until Obama ran for office. He lied about his time at Ole Miss being intergrated when the actual truth is there were 2 blacks out of 5000 students. That is hardly intergration. Most minority's never get any acknowledgement since we have 5 political representatives that are minority's in the entire state! Please talk what you Know and not what you Think.
Mississippi Mama
tooting a horn
Okay, I'll bite. The blurrr on the topic is just too enticing. I'm not sure whether to applaud Gov. Barbour, or encourage him to have a comprehensive visit with Sec. of State Hillary Clinton (which I would want to sit in on).
To the tangent:
H1B visas have handicapped many graduating foreign students in finding employment with US corporations. Employers prefer citizenship. But as with India, many countries do not allow dual citizenship. You can not just 'stamp' citizenship on a diploma without stripping their native born national rights. Excuse unlabeled world map: green=dual citizenship allowed, red=not allowed, gray=unknown?http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/2a/Dual_Citizenship.svg/800px-Dual_Citizenship.svg.png
The benefits of international student exchanges: diplomacy, cultural understanding, foreign students returning and contributing to the development and progress of their native country, promoting international policy, industrial cooperation, and international aid programs. Foreign students benefit our universities as well, not only economically, but through a more diverse student body.
Whether foreign students choose to stay and seek citizenship or return home, should be determined by their circumstances, opportunities, and individual goals. Hopefully it's the same for our students who study overseas.
Gov. Barbour, there are ways to encourage investment in America without thinking it is necessary to retain the world's best future minds educated on our soil. Though I love the idea, let's not be greedy. (That would make one heckuva board game.)
Please excuse the tangent followed by this post. You may now return to your regularly scheduled program.
I don't believe that Haley Barbour does anything or promotes anything that doesn't benefit himself in some way.
I personally think he is trying to set himself up to seem closer to the middle if he is going to make a presidential run. After all, when compared to the fringe conservative groups, he would seem down right normal.
Any time I hear an influential Republican talk common sense, I must applaud (no matter how outrageous the past remarks may be, or how feeble his analogies). It is funny that in this political climate it is rare to even hear a remark of common sense like this. Path to citizenship is the only true solution for 11+ million people, and to pretend that the 'deficit hawks' want to spend endless money deporting people is laughable.
If the Republicans actually start using some common sense (which I find to be a longshot), we might be able to address some of the problems the country is facing. In the end, it is all about posturing and playing the politics game. This just helps Mr. Barbour position himself for a leadership role in a party that is in a major flux (the year 2012 possibly?). At least he is gaining political points by being sensible, instead of controversial and insensitive.
Miss. is poor..Haley wants slave wages..so where else to get it then from illegals?
So from black slaves to brown ones.
The right thing to do would be to fund independent labor unions down south, so the locals could organize and change their conditions in their home country. It wouldn't be easy, and people would die in the process, but it is the only really workable solution. That's how it happened here.
Hey Lensman, "evil communist hockey spreading Canadian" here :-),
we come in all shapes sizes and colours but I'm sure our hockey sticks and snow skis will quickly distinguish us from other border hoppers; can't leave home without them you know :-)
Thanks for bringing some levity to the discussion.
Anyway, though it pains me to admit it, there is actually some shreds of good sense in Mr.Barbour's comment, like making sure the US has the labour force it needs,and the millions of illegal immigrants will not all be deported or locked up, here endeth the shred of good sense. From what I read and as a business owner and Economics major, it appears that there is a willing labour force just not enough jobs in the US. Mr. Barbour's belief that securing immediate work permits for Stanford graduates would ensure that they would set up shop in the US versus going back to India using Barbour's example, is wishful thinking at best. My reason for this assertion is that apart from the fact that some of the foriegn students have obligations to return to their respective countries, there is the fact that students have the incentive to go back home to do business for the same reasons that US companies have production companies in India, cheaper production costs. Added to which are some other facts like perhaps a higher standard of living based on their caste and class. Shocking as it may be to Mr. Barbour, not all foreign students WANT to become US citizens.
Perhaps Mr. Barbour could encourage his republican colleagues to stop blocking progress, let the elected party govern and wait their turn at bat rather than operating in full election alert mode ALL THE TIME. Who knows things may settle down enough to get work done and get the economy rolling along again.
So, when the "free market" would drive up wages because there are fewer workers who are desparate to wipe the spittle off Barbour's chin, he would flood the labor market with immigrant workers. Charming.
That's what I said.
The combination of the pill, education, higher income, women moving into the workforce and easily available abortions caused the birth rate to fall off the cliff in developed countries. Even the Catholic family in Italy today has less than 2 children on average.
So there is an aging population and lack of young workers. In Japan, they don't allow immigrations and even with more robots than assembly line workers, their economy has been stagnant for the last 15 years. Europe, faced with the same facts, has been forced to allow massive, mostly Muslim immigration. Basic demographis and economics have demanded this for quite a while.
These young, hardworking immigrants with their high birth rate are the only thing keeping us going now and the only way for Social Security to have enough young workers paying in to pay for the baby boomers.
You know something? They have better character in a lot of ways than we do. As we have almost made greed and selfishness into virtues, they work hard for long hours at really bad jobs to sent most of their money to help other people that they don't even see for years, out of a sense of duty and community.
Those illegal immigrants are the main workforce for things like billion dollar NYSE listed "agribusiness". Seems like getting a few companies to stop hiring 60,000 illegals makes more sense than chasing down 60,000 people at the border. The illegals are here because corporate America made a decision to take advantage of a cheaper and much more docile workforce. And they are not going to give them up.
But they will support "blaming" this very profitable situation for them on the immigrant. You know the guy who walks through the desert and almost dies so he can work hard at some really crappy job for no money. He's the guy to hate. Right.
Execellent comments Edward Bruce Williams, especially.
Corporations have the gall to take advantage of the illegal immigrant workers and blame them as well. I could be wrong but I believe that apart from paying low wages, there is a good chance that the employers do not remit the required state and federal taxes. Of course corporations also have great tax breaks so they have the best of all worlds in a country which has
The abusers continue to abuse the scared & docile by
Of course the abusers also know that they- the abusers- are privilidged and "nobody" will believe that they abuse and there is no punishment.
Ok, you all are much brighter and politically aware than I can ever be, but I'm going to open my yap anyway. What concerns me about the whole illegal immigrant thing is hearing the hateful, disparaging remarks made against Hispanic workers. "They're taking jobs from Americans." "They're living off of our tax money." "They . . ." I'm sorry, but "they" are not the problem. "They" are the victims. They are the solution for businesses whose primary interest is themselves and their bottom line.
My problem with illegal immigration is the illegal part. We are all expected to abide by society's rules, right or wrong though the rules may be. Our government has not found a way to answer the illegal part short of bursting into homes and deporting the "criminals." I don't see many of today's young people willing to do the jobs these illegals are doing. Here in the Chicago burbs, it's hard to find a kid who'll stoop to lawn mowing at $20 a pop. Don't punish those willing to do the work--but do punish the businesses willing to buy laborers so they can fill their own coffers. We allowed our country to be sold little by little when we ignored the corporate abandonment of America and its work force.
I believe in amnesty for the illegals, providing them with an opportunity to become legalized and earn their citizenship within a prescribed period of time. I also think that any employer who knowingly seeks out or entices illegals should be prosecuted and fined exorbitantly for their actions. In my mind, their actions undermine this country are are treasonous. Companies that outsource rather than supporting the America that allowed them to succeed should be taxed at the highest level possible, as should their products. Do I know how to do this? Of course not. I have trouble figuring out my grocery expenses and paying my credit card interest rates - but I would think the powers that be have the common sense Barbour cries out for and could solve the problem, if they truly wanted to do so. Aye, there's the rub.
Punishing and blaming people who enter this country to try and better their life and support their families goes against everything I was taught that America was about. "Bring me your tired, your poor . . ." allowed my parents' families to escape a politically threatening environment and come here with the hope for a good life. That's true for most American families. Somewhere our priorities have shifted. Those with the most candy, no matter how they obtained it, are elevated while the rest of us have learned to bow down. Those who destroyed the economy have been rewarded with bailouts so they can continue raping this country.
We must remove ourselves from the mentality of greed and selfishness that's developed, and return to the simplistic idea of being good to one another, welcoming those less fortunate, and creating an environment of hope. That's the American way I remember growing up with. Idealistic? Unrealistic? Hell, yeah! But someone's got to do it. Ideas, anyone? How do I start?
Where does your idealist line begin Tone2? I'm jumping in line behind YOU! I think people are a little afraid the idealist line takes too long for any expediency of individual service; kind of odd, considering it's probably the shortest.
You just made a good start by spreading intelligent thought. Good on Ya.
A lot of the "enforcement" is simply labor intimidation, creating a situation where the worker ask for little and puts up with anything.
Do you think someone who almost died crossing a desert to get a job is going to risk that job for any reason?
Workers who are willing to die for the job as part of their "application" is the situation companies have created for themselves. Big difference from the days they had to negotiate with the unions, huh?
The problem is people you pay nothing, buy nothing and our economy is now weak at the core. Demand came from people taking money out of their inflated homes and spending it and that is over now,
I agree...
We need comprehensive immigration reform so that we can keep this nation vibrant. We need living wages for all people to keep us America.
We do well when we live our ideals.
Yes, we need a middle class or we will continue to slide to being a third wold like nation with only the very very rich and the very very poor. This produces a weak nation that is corrupt and without freedom.
I agree that companies who hire illegals should be the target, not the immigrants themselves. Where the problem comes down to is enforcement. It is a slap on the wrist to be prosecuted for hiring illegals, so it just makes more business sense for someone to skirt the law and take the risk.
It is just like the problems with mining safety regulations being ignored simply because the fines are less than the profits made by violating the rules. When regulations and prosecution fail to instill fear into the businesses that are left to follow them, greed and avarice rule the day.
Tone2 I stand with you.
I would like to see some percentages of illegal and legal immigrant workers categorized by industry. I was under the assumption that large corporations generally had either unions and/or were required to recognize legal labor laws. Do we need better enforcement in this area?
The only alleged illegal immigrant hiring I am aware of in my area is small business agriculture (who would be fighting bankrupcy w/o) and subcontractors. And I believe companies are still responsible for making sure their subcontractors meet federal and state laws.
Reading up on Bill Richardson, I generally like his ideas and common sense, and admire what he has accomplished. Just thought I would share this short clip.
Bill Richardson (current Gov. New Mexico)-2008 on illegal immigration during national campaign (courtesy of 'BigThinkSociety'): http://www.associatedcontent.com/video/132008/how_to_stop_illegal_immigration.html
A few show raids here and there is the enforcement because large corporations don't follow the law, they make the law.
Foster Farms blankets Mexico with posters telling the wages at their chicken plants and locations. They run a bus service from Texas to their plants in the Southeast for illegals. Corporate America wants illegal workers and the government does what corporate America wants.
All the noise about illegals is designed to make sure America believes the illegal immigrant is the problem and not the company that recruits and hires them. Corporate controlled mass media pushes the "build more fences" view on the issue and politicians pick up the story to whip up voters. For every hard problem, today we have a demagogue politician screaming a simple fake solution.
Thank you for providing industry example.
I am in agreement. We should be the first expected to observe our existing laws, including corporations.
Hopefully, those running for congressional seats will continue to weigh in on this issue so we may see who actually has realistic solutions.
Best comment on the whole "border" issue:
Replace a 8' fence with a 12' fence and what do you get?
A 14' foot ladder.
Like the Mexican drug trade, as long as we offer billions for drugs and millions of jobs, "closing" the border is an impossible fantasy.
But politicians will use it as a issue to run on. Remember, they don't need to solve any problems, just get elected.
H1B visas and/or the threat of them are designed to keep wages down. they are supposed to be limited to employment where there are no american workers...or a shortage of workers. the employer is free to low ball wages, and when no one applies, farm it out to a broker, who gets the visas for people from a country where that wage is acceptable. that forces many to accept jobs at a lower than normal rate of pay. the problem with that is the people accepting the lower rate are not always the most qualified and it may be a step up from an even LOWER pay rate. that's fine when public safety/welfare is not involved. 1 example...trucking industry.
Unfortunately, I live in AZ - the home of Gov. Brewer and millions of retired right wing, vindictive, wealthy old farts whose thinking is parallel with the gov's. It is a sad "state" of affairs and we are already feeling the loss of business in the southern part of the state because the Hispanics won't come here to shop any more. And, pls don't buy the b.s. that we have all sorts of crime and murder at the border - most of the bad stuff is going on in the El Paso, Laredo and Brownsville areas in TX. Many of you who have written today are obviously humanitarians and I would pray that your excellent ideas might be put to use one day soon. My absolute fear is that republicans will take over (as in AZ) and we will have the meanest country in history - run by the Roves. Murdochs and Koch brothers of the world. My grandchildren are half Mexican with beautiful tan skin - and good ole Sheriff Joe could easily stop them and ask for id's. It's a scary place but maybe someday we will be governed by people with some semblance of intelligence and integrity. This mindset can't be blamed on Obama - the people who were in power before him were disseminating politics of division even before they lost congress in '04 and it was only logical that they would turn up the rhetoric during his early years in office. They are blaming him and the Dems for everything they brought to the table which, out here in AZ includes the "illegal" problem. God help us if this election goes to the tea-party.
I always thought a Tea Party was a little girl and her imaginary friends.
Now a Tea Party is a bunch of scared white people and their imaginary solutions to all our problems.
With guns.
I come from an ethnic environment that looked down on anyone of another ethnicity, color, religion, but my son is engaged to a Mexican/Brazilian and he's one of the few Irishman in their enormous circle of professional friends. My daughter, simply by virtue of her occupation in the arts, has like friends/acquaintances surrounding her. I'm proud of that and would like to take some credit for it, but in reality I simply know that my kids are not only smarter than me, they're more courageous.
This is one of those topics that will never end, and is too emotional in its nature because it affects not only money, it threatens those segregationists who fear acceptance of strangers into their world. Simply put, it's based on fear that these immigrants (legal or not) will not only marry our kids, they'll take our Stuff and limit our ability to acquire new Stuff. (Thank you, George Carlin, for your brilliance.)
So, once again, the question is --- How do I start to make a difference at my age and limited economic resources? This is a great country with great potential, but I believe it's lost its way because its leaders appear to have a different agenda than their constituents.
I've come to this forum because a celeb I admire and respect taught me about Rachel, and introduced me to the blog. He was right. But, words, however well meaning, aren't doing it. Actions speak. Help.
http://www.democrats.org/ Assuming here, sorry.
It's a start. Search for groups in your local area that need volunteers. And of course, petitions and letters to congress and shows of discontent to particular companies are always fun.
Second: Interpersonal communication goes a long way, in RL and the web. Maybe try to reach out to those you notice being falsely led. Listen first, provide constructive feedback, legitimate facts and links; but use tact.
Third: Ever try window paints on your vehicle with subtle progressive messages during a road trip? HEY...don't laugh! It beats bumper stickers!
But I know what you mean, I could use some ideas too.
Growing up in MS I feel like I've had to push back against that "ethnic environment" my entire life so I get where you are coming from. I think my generation has had it a little easier in this regard, but things still are not perfect (and probably never will be).
It's hard to stand up for what you believe in, especially when it seems to be the unpopular view. Good for you.
Talk to your friends, people who know you. Talk to your family. I am not saying go out and be preachy, just bring up something that matters instead of who was on American Idol. I have found most people are complimented you think they are someone who can consider real issues, it gets them thinking and maybe they start to bring up something besides trivia in their conversations.
Frankly, this is how Fox, etc has succeeded, getting people to feel they know something and have something to say. Problem there they are spoon fed what to think, but boy do they repeat it. They always bring up what was said on Beck last night, bring up what was said on Maddow and ask what they think about it.
Didn't mean to turn this into a self-help column, but your comments are appreciated. I believe we have to be as vocal (but, of course, more logical) than the opposition in regard to this, and several other critical issues our country is facing. It appears to me that Obama's people are just not responding to the drivel that is being blasted through the media in opposition to him and his policies. I fear for his re-election in 2012, and heaven forbid and protect us if we become a nation of tea drinkers.
The US should annex Mexico. Everyone would benefit. Mexico is outrageously corrupt. Mexicans would benefit from honest police, decent public schools, environmental protection, capital investment. All Mexico would lose is a handful of corrupt national politicians. The US has a long and proven track record of absorbing Mexico and Mexicans. We are doing so now and have been for almost 200 years. There is no other solution.
"There is no other solution" actually Libertarians say, open the border totally. Let them all in. Hand out IDs- driver licenses, visas, whatever- to keep track of these new immigrant residents. Let them get jobs legally, pay taxes, INS leave employers alone. What's the problem? Put Americans out of work? Really? What is happening is REAL money is being spent on IMAGINARY problem.
It's pretty moot as long as good jobs are being outsourced abroad. Globalization is making us all slave labor.