Two weeks from now, on Monday, October 25, we'll bring you a special hour-long documentary about the 2009 murder of abortion provider Dr. George Tiller in Wichita. The man who pulled the trigger, Scott Roeder, is now in jail for at least 50 years, but questions about the case continue. The Kansas City Star reports that a grand jury is now looking into whether Roeder acted alone or was part of a broader conspiracy.
Whether prosecutors find reason to proceed with a conspiracy case, it's clear already that Roeder's brutal act couldn't have happened -- and did not happen -- in a vacuum. Last night, District Attorney Nola Foulston of Sedgwick County, Kansas, described the circus of violent anti-abortion extremist who showed up to support Roeder:
Throughout the trial, there were groups of individuals that came in, individuals in our own community that had been arrested, prosecuted, and convicted and spent time in prison for bombing clinics. Randall Terry came in, and his entourage. A number of other individuals sat through in a section watching the trial for the entire presentation of evidence.
Even before this trial, there were letters, information, a lot of E-mails to my office, and, of course, the perennial favorite assassinator who failed, Rachelle Shannon, even got in the mix here and was very interested in writing me letters about what should happen in this case.
We'll be following the developments as we get ready to bring you ""The Assassination of Dr. Tiller." It's not over yet.
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How Rachel Maddow's News Reporting was Influential on me---- It is NOT her Opinions, but the Reporting of Facts and the Story. I cannot Say that I Cannot Wait for This Documentary--- it is Very Sad How Dr. Tiller was Stalked and Harassed for Years--- Finally Leading Up to His Murder.
At the Time, I Mainly Watched FOX, Sometimes CNN. My Dad Occasionally Watched COUNTDOWN and HARDBALL.
Watching Bill O'Reilly's Coverage of Dr. Tiller--- I Knew, Something is Just Not Right Here. It Seemed that He Was (Justifying) Dr. Tiller's Death. When I Watched THE O'REILLY FACTOR This One Night, and He Had a young Female On--- Explaining in Detail What it is Like to Have an Abortion, and She Was Describing the Expelling of the Fetus in the Toilet--- That was IT for Me!!! I Told my Dad---This is Totally True---- Let's Watch something Else for a while, until this (Dr.Tiller Thing) Passes.
That Night--- my Dad Said, You Have to Watch (Rachel Maddow)--- You Will Like her Show.----- and I SURE DID!!! Dad's Know Best, I Guess. I Have Been a Fan Ever Since!!
But as I Watched Rachel Maddow Covering (Dr. Tiller)--- in a Very Different Way that Bill O'Reilly Did---- I Knew---- She Makes Sense---- She Reported the Truth--- No, it is Not OK or Right to Murder a Doctor! This is Not the Right Thing to Do! This is (Domestic Terrorism)---- and it is!
Thank You, Rachel!!!
Diana B
greg-2499217 banned, multiple of Robertxx, also banned. Don't register multiple accounts, folks.
Thank you Tyler. Interesting to know that greg and robertxx are the same person. He's got a few dozen more sock puppet identities to create before he catches up with hatey though!
They should also look into the Eric Rudolph case. Many involved in the case thought he was receiving help along the way.
People like Randall Terry are no different than men like Osama Bin Laden. They may not plant the bombs or pull the trigger, but they seek out those unstable enough to be persuaded and teach them how.
It still amazes me that the government isn't more diligent in going after people that are breaking the law to prevent women from having a lawful medical procedure.
Maybe we should turn the tables on these protestors. Maybe it is time to start picketing outside churches where these lawbreakers and criminals attend services. Shout horrid things at them, hold up pictures of people killed and maimed, all for the glory of christianity, (the Crusades, the Spanish Inquisition, people murdered by anti-abortion activists). Let's see how they like to receive the same treatment they dish out. The only way to deal with bullies is to confront them, and use the same tactics on them. Most bullies are scared, insecure little people that can only feel good about themselves by making others feel badly about themselves.
By the way, I hope Mr. Roeder enjoys his cellmates, as he's going to have VERY close relationships with him for years to come.
I assume nothing, because when you assume, you make an a** of you in front of me.
Anti-abortion protestors assume that anyone who supports abortion rights is evil.
The right assumes that all muslims are potential terrorists.
Your loathsome posts are deservedly censored.
Greg,
I think these kinds of ideas about abortion are started in churches. People are told what to believe by priests, pastors and the like. Churches spread fear and condemnation. Some people with no or little self esteem take the cause upon themselves not because they have thought about abortion but because they feel powerful and needed when they have a something to make them feel better about their sorry little lives.
It is the responsibility of churches to lead their flocks spiritually not lead them to violence and hatred which has happened and is still happening all to often.
And as for prison, it is not about homosexuality it is about dominance and power and rape happens for that reason. Let's see how Roeder likes it!
Greg's hilarious statement that I'm against free speech still has me laughing. Abortion is legal, and though there are obviously people who disagree with it, they do not have the right to murder or harrass those that perform abortions or have the procedure done. I was pointing out to him that if this type of behavior is all right for anti-abortion types, (as apparently murdering a doctor in a church is even ok), then it should be just as acceptable to do the same against those people. Randall Terry should discover what it's like to have protestors outside his home every day, harrassing him and his family. It's free speech, right? The bullies need to be bullied back, or this one-sided attack will continue.
It is certainly not an threat to free speech to use the tactics of the sanctimonious anti-abortion protesters to remind them of the long list of atrocities committed in the name of Christianity. To describe the Crusades, the Inquisition, and the conquest of Central and South America would simply be a warm-up. Christianity and its institutions must forever bear the responsibility for that, in much the same way that the Nazis must forever bear the responsibility for the Holocaust.
Cafeteria Christians like to take a helping of loaves and fishes, then skip to the dessert table for some Mother Theresa. Meanwhile, they seek to hang the albatross of 911 around the neck of every Muslim on the planet.
I don't think anyone is assuming that Roeder will be locked up with violent convicts who will give him a lesson in power and victimization. We're just kind of hoping, because we're human beings who cannot help but feel a small sense of satisfaction when harsh justice is meted out to an evil man. I'm not proud of the fact that I want Roeder to suffer, but neither will I deny it.
Uffdaguy,
It's a good thing I'm not the "boss" because those bullies would all be put in jail. Their self righteous indignation about abortion has nothing to do with right to life, it has to do with their own personal need to control everyone else's life. I think that's what a bully is- one who feels insecure so needs to dominate others.
The responsibility to stop bullies lies with the churches in this case since they are the ones who opened this Pandora's box to begin with.
It just makes me sick that they are allowed to harrass people at clinics. I agree that there is a difference between free speech and harrassment and intimidation.
This isn't a dig at anyone personally, but I wonder if I'm the only person who's (very) uncomfortable with the alluded equating of revenge (on males) with prison rape.
Granted, it may not be the nicest thing to say, or even think, but Roeder is a big bully from a movement of bullies, and it's always good to see a bully taken down a peg or two. Maybe wishing a rape on him was not the right thing to do. I'm sure the inmates at his new prison will find interesting ways to interact with him.
To elaborate (slightly, b/c I'm having some trouble formulating my thoughts), rape continuing to be seen as a legimate "punishment" supports rape culture.
Mech,
Yes, it's uncomfortable but unfortunately prison reality. Of course it won't make Roeder a better person and I don't condone it, but it's what happens. It is not legitimate punishment which we all know, but just venting our anger and frustration over Roeder in this way is sometimes therapeutic.
I see where you are coming from, and I agree. As I said, I'm sure the inmates at his new prison will find interesting ways to interact with him. Somehow, I doubt that they will stop at humiliating him by calling him names.
Yeah Uffy, I think the concept of community accountability (i.e. appropriate punishment) is valid. I definitely want to make that clear. But it's really squicky to me to include rape in that. Especially b/c of the hierarchy of the prison-industrial complex and how prison power structures replicate the larger system's treatment of all incarcerated persons. That is, the might-makes-right goes from the top all the way down, which is the opposite of what we endorse when we fight for the rights of the marginalized. It's sticky. Our prison system is all effed up.
I blame my reaction on watching too many hours of "Lockdown" on the weekends!
Yep, and so are gangs, psychopaths, deranged killers who all end up together in that same prison. They need to separate the bad from the awful. Rape in prison is not condoned by the system it happens because the prisons are controlled by the worst of the inmates.
Maybe we need to realize that prison is not the solution for every problem. We have more people in prison here than any nation in the world, if I recall correctly. We spend billions upon billions of dollars every year in building prisons and running them, housing and feeding millions of inmates. And when they get out, what happens? Most of them return eventually, often after having committed even worse crimes than before. Are we as a nation that much worse than everyone else in the world, or are we taking the wrong approach to some kinds of activities? Yes, murderers and rapists need to be locked up, but does some guy who bought a bag of pot need to be sent there with them?
Roeder is a criminal, although he and his supporters don't believe that. They see him as a holy warrior, a brave man who had to kill an evil doctor in order to save lives. Ironically, that mindset is not at all different from members of Al Qaeda, the Taliban, Hezzbollah, Hamas, the IRA, or any other extremist organization.
Richard Esq, your comment about "cafeteria Christians" made me think of an old term applied to some of my acquaintances, that they were "Christian CEOs" (Christians on Christmas and Easter Only).
I agree that those who espouse the Christian faith should understand the long history of their faith's participation in and sponsorship of atrocities around the world.
Uffdaguy,
Well, we are straying off topic but prisons need to be segregated because the nastiest, the incorrigible, the gangs take over and brutilize everyone. It's really sad. I hope you don't think I was in prison and that's how I know! :(
That being said, lets hope the legalization of pot passes and maybe that will help a little.
Maybe the only way to take this head on is to protest at Radall Terry's house, or his church, until this gang of thugs stops. Unfortunately, that would be as low budget as the idiots that are protesting at the soldier grave sites. I would not advocate the last part, and I do not believe in using hate against hate. We need some new tactics that will get rid of these people.
I grew up about 6 blocks away from Dr. Tiller's clinic and we witnessed all those protesters flocking around it for years. Please know that not everyone from Wichita is like that. I'm so sad for Dr. Tiller's family and for all the hell those people put him through and are now putting his family through. It's just horrific.
I am always frustrated when I hear this described simply as a murder. The assassination of Dr. Tiller was unequivocally a terrorist act, calculated to "send a message" and to effect the behavior of this nation through spreading fear.
While Bin Laden's group of nut jobs leads in the grizzly body count, our own home-grown religious extremists, the reactionary Jesus-freaks, are by far the most prolific terrorists on US soil. Their jihad against woman's rights and alternative lifestyles leaves dozens of dead or injured victims every year, with thousands more terrorized and traumatized.
Until and unless we, as a society, stop pretending that some groups of religious fundamentalists and extremist are more dangerous than others, we will continue to be unable to effectively address the threat of domestic terrorism. Our nation and culture should stand for the principle that in a free society, all people must equally enjoy a robust spectrum of rights. To use fear to abrogate the rights of a subset of our population based on their gender, ethnicity, orientation, etc. is sedition. It is an effort to achieve a political outcome through force and violence, and should be treated as such.
If someone provided him with the gun, then convict them. If they helped him plan the act, convict them. If they took some positive step in advancing the crime, then convict them. If all they did was support him after he was caught, assert their right to freedom of speech and assembly by opposing abortion, or suggest that there is a moral argument for killing abortionists -- then leave them alone. They have a right to speak freely on a subject.
More importantly, it serves the interest of everyone to allow this kind of hateful rhetoric because it makes it that much easier to spot the charlatans and the religious fakes like Fred Phelps and his Westboro Bunch of Protesting Baptists. I love it that they walk around with signs proclaiming what God hates. I always thought of God as a God of love. I personally think Phelps must have been potty-trained at gunpoint to have become so badly warped with hatred. The same goes for the anti-abortion bunch. While they extol the virtues of violence and rely on scripture to say that what they do is right, they ignore the New Testament's injunction to love one another, and to hate the sin, not the sinner. They are, sadly, just another branch of the American Taliban.
I hope Rachel will continue to follow this story.
Yep, welcome to Wichita. It's actually become a lot more progressive than it used to be, even 10 years ago. But I've lived here through it all. The "Summer of Mercy" in the 90s, and all the protests outside my schools... once, when they were protesting outside East High school, I had a protester throw her body in front of my car when I was trying to drive into the school driveway. That year, we did our finals in a silent room, with the sounds of the protesters shouting outside (why outside a high school? who knows).
I also remember going to college at WSU, and they took the protests there as well. Somehow, they managed to be allowed to post huge billboard sized pictures of aborted fetuses in the middle of campus.
And of course, they protest at random street corners, and outside Planned Parenthood (even though ours doesn't perform abortions). They used to protest pretty much every day outside the Tiller clinic, but also they would take to other random places on other days...
When I say "protest," it's not what you think. These aren't your father's protesters; the peaceful, hippie 60s protests. These are mad mobs of vicious vitriolic nutjobs, sometimes literally (and I mean literally) foaming at the mouth. One year, they laid their children down in the street in front of the Tiller clinic... their own children. I don't remember if they were arrested for this, but it doesn't matter. When they are arrested, they view themselves as martyrs for the cause.
The Tiller murder was terrible, horrific.... but not surprising to anyone who lives here. When you see 28 years worth of mad mobs of anti choicers, the only thing that surprises you is that they didn't manage to kill sooner or to take a few innocent women down with him. Upon hearing the news, most of us shook our heads, a lot of us attended vigils, but I don't know anyone who was surprised.
And it won't be long before they start gunning down teenage girls approaching and leaving clinics.
ali,
Where are these people coming from, church groups, just loose mobs???
Yes, I think a large portion are church groups, and lot are people from surrounding towns. The smaller towns in Kansas are infinitely more conservative than the medium to large cities like Wichita (plus they are bored, and looking for a place to direct their anger). I wouldn't say loose mobs, though. They seemed too organized.
As I understand it, some of the leaders from the local anti choice movement actually moved to Wichita from other places, to set up shop here. I would imagine they will probably be moving on to the next city, now that we no longer have a clinic. It's nuts, man.
So glad that MSNBC is doing this story ..... someone needs to call out the likes of Beck and Limbaugh, to mention a few, who spew out hate speech like CO2!
The vast majority of people are easily influenced by media ....that is why advertising works so well...and those with wide platforms know this, thus, they have a responsibility to act and speak in an educated manner, no matter what their position. Beck's speech serves no other purposes than to incite hatred. People identify with Beck because he is a little person ....he has no education....he's had addiction problems....he has a special needs child....etc....people think of him as being one of them ........He needs to accept the responsibility that comes with his platform. When he fails to do this, he should be held accountable.
I agree with this statement completely, but personally lay much more of the blame for Dr Tiller's death at the hands of O'Reilly. How many times did he say "someone should take care of him" and even the pathetic comment about he'd "like to wrap his hands around Dr Tiller's throat" himself? This was blatantly soliciting violent action against Dr Tiller, obviously hoping that if he said it often enough, someone among his zombified horde of fans would take it upon themselves to do just that. I can't believe he can't be held liable for openly advocating violence against an individual over and over again. The vague "someone should take care of him" and "someone should do something to stop him" should still be specific enough to show O'Reilly was advocating illegal action. If Dr Tiller's actions were legal and he was determined to continue them, the only way to force him to stop would be to engage in illegal activity; I'm no lawyer but it seems logical to follow this train of thought. If O'R was going on his show every night saying someone should "take care of" Pres Obama, you want to bet the Secret Service would be paying him a visit? I think they would; if saying that about the president could be considered fomenting violence, why wouldn't it be the same for a private citizen?
Thanks, Rachel, for keeping this in the news. I've lived in Wichita the majority of my life. These right-wing wackos are scary folks.
And does this mean you'll be in Wichita?? We've got great bars that I'm sure could host a broadcast!
This is why you are awesome, Rachel. Other media outlets covered it, when the trial ended they stopped. Your hard work and dedication to get the whole story is amazing. We truly need to understand everything...not just Roeder, but all the lunatics behind the scenes. I'm glad there is an investigation looking into the big picture. Roeder pulled the trigger, but this goes way beyond Roeder. For every person like Roeder who commits these crimes, there are dozens...hundreds perhaps, who support this violence and even encourage it. People like Bill O'Reilly, though not directly, they do fuel the craziness.
Again, Rachel, thank you. I don't know where you found the time to do this because you've done so much with trips to Iraq, Afghanistan, multiple times to New Orleans. You go beyond the headlines and bring the entire story... you rock!
I'm in sync with every comment so far on this on this subject, but what can we actually do to neutralize or better yet stop these rabid zygote-lovers?
I've been taught that two wrongs don't make a right, but on rethinking this, perhaps the best way would be to use their own tactics against them, as someone upthread has suggested.
Bullies usually back down when confronted aggressively. However, we can't count on that, b/c these people seem to be the most radical, frothing at the mouth zealots since the dark ages, and no telling what they might do.
Wish I had an answer for all of this.
-- but, what can we actually do to neutralize or preferably stop these rabid zygote lovers?
Although I was taught that two wrongs don't make a right, on reflection it seems that the only way to stop them is to use their own tactics on them, as posters upthread have suggested.
I find it interesting that the Left's argument to disagreement with their position often falls into one of several categories: The Right is hateful, controlling, brainwashed by church, etc.
Can't someone just disagree with your position on logical or personal grounds?
Sure there are crazy extremists on both sides, but neither side should paint the other with a broad brush.
Many people genuinely believe that a baby growing inside a woman is a separate life that deserves a voice. All of these people are not hateful or wanting to control a woman's body.
Is this so hard to believe and accept?
(This does not in anyway condone the murder of Dr. Tiller. Simple disagreement and activism does not encourage this behavior. If that were the case, no one could oppose anything for fear of inciting violence.)
Women who are opposed to abortion should be able to exercise their right to choose carrying their pregnancy to term. I do not believe anyone is stating otherwise, RobDon. Women who do choose abortion, a legal medical procedure, also should be able to exercise their right to make that choice, without being harassed, bullied, threatened, or otherwise intimidated. Choosing abortion is a tough enough decision already for a woman, it should not be made more difficult.
RobDon, as someone who was raised Catholic, I understand that many, if not the majority, of pro-lifers, are sensible, rational people who have a deep-seated belief in the sanctity of life at all stages of development, and who would never engage in the violent extremes that have been highlighted here.
However, attempting to force your beliefs on another who may not share them through government intercession (legislation) may be justifiably viewed by many as an unacceptable form of religious belief enacted through law, and some would probaly interpret supporting legislation restricting the right to abortion (and thus, control over one's own body) as extremist even though that would not be your intent.
Dutchie, there are already laws against harassment and other forms of intimidation and if someone violates those laws they should be prosecuted.
JMLynn (and Dutchie), the left protests as well and works to pass legislation regarding personal behavior. The global warming issue is a great example (and I'm not denying or defending the merits of that argument just that both sides want the government to step in...and that's a legitimate function of government at times).
To illustrate, the Left says "A" law should be passed restricting the use of "X" because it contributes to global warming, a threat to all mankind. The Right says "B" law should be passed restricting abortion because it is a threat to the unborn child. Very similar arguments.
I'm just saying, attack the rationale behind the position not the technique (except when violating other laws like in Dutchie's example or the extreme of Dr. Tiller's murder). To say "quit trying to pass legislation that controls what I do" is not an argument.
So terrific you are doing this, Rachel, I would take you out for a beer if I were in NY.
Are old ladies pulling you aside yet to tell you this is important and that everyone on their street knew where to go?
While I agree religion seems to be used as the rational for anti rights people, it seems to me, people posting false information have purposely misinformed uneducated people. To tell people that a few cells have "feelings", to make claims of disgusting false steps involved in an abortion, to make people assume that cells are a full formed human, is pathetic. I don't know any woman who lines up and says,"Oh boy I want an abortion". But for whatever reason a person needs one, I know it is NOT MY business nor the business of those who would slaughter a real human to protect cells unformed. That is murder. Harassing females who need a breast exam or one of many other medical services just to stop one, bans medical care from those who need care and deprives the legal rights of others. What about their rights? I don't eat meat but I don't harass those who keep a cow in an enclosure never to see grass or the sun, pumping it with antibiotics, hormones and other things to harm children and those who eat meat. And I wouldn't presume killing those who tortured animals for meat was decent or justified. Why don't doctors, business people, secretaries, nurses and sick women have rights to not be threatened and harassed or slaughtered in Kansas?