Last year, Rep. Gabrielle Giffords (D) went around her Arizona district talking to constituents about health reform. Arizona State Rep. Steve Farley, also a Democrat, went with her, often sitting onstage looking out at seething audiences. Now that he's back and forth between his Tucson home and the hospital where Rep. Giffords lies gravely wounded after being shot in the head on Saturday, Rep. Farley draws a connection between the violent rhetoric and the literal violence.
"You'd go to these health-care town halls, where you get 2,000 screaming, hissing, booing, shouting-down-everybody people on the right, and you got the sense that there was this kind of primeval allure to being in a mob," Rep. Farley tells us. "It's driven by politics, and not rational politics at that."
The suspect, Jared Loughner, now stands accused of two counts of murder and three counts of attempted murder, the Arizona Republic reports. Six people were killed, and another 14 injured. Loughner, 22, shows signs of having been mentally unstable.
Rep. Farley says that it's unlikely Loughner acted out of political motivations, at least in the way that most folks understand politics. But he argues that violent political rhetoric has an effect on people like Loughner. "They're loners and they're looking for something to belong to, and those big angry mob things, they're a rush," Rep. Farley says. "It doesn't matter what we believe in -- we've got to tone it down. Because this is a democracy, and we can't govern if we don't respect each other."
The good news now, Mr. Farley reports, is that he sees signs in Tucson that people of all political stripes are pulling together and calling for peace.
(H/T Blog for Arizona)
Leave a Comment:
It is strange to me how someone being described as follows:
...would be influenced by someone as Right and conservative as Palin. Do we need to reexamine the rhetoric used on both sides as Olbermann suggested? Yes, but enough of the "you are worse than we are" bickering.
Also, as I noted earlier, if someone was really concerned with language that leads to violence, it seems they would focus on movies and music that glorify drugs, domestic abuse, and violence, where there are multiple real victims EVERYDAY! These "entertainment" products are much more likely to influence someone who was already psychologically challenged.
No, this tragic event has been hijacked by political forces that only want to score points instead of solve problems...IMHO.
This is what really needs to happen instead of people pointing fingers and trying to make this about a particular political persuasion or view.
"He was a goth-type," Ramsier said. "He was more of an outcast. I just saw him passing in the halls."
Tyler Ramsier, who attended Mountain View with Loughner in 2005, called him a "hater."
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For some reason I don't buy Miss Parker's events. They were in BAND CLASS together. What kind of political leanings can one form about another during BAND CLASS?
Not trying to call this young lady a fibber but come on! She said this on her TWITTER ACCOUNT...not in front of a reporter. And look at her word choice.
"more libertarian & definitely socially liberal."
That reads more like a sound bite than an actual benign comment. Personally, I think she will be exposed. She seems to know more about him than his own neighbors did.
She wrote:
5:32: He was a political radical & met Giffords once before in '07, asked her a question & he told me she was "stupid & unintelligent"
How does he go from radical to leftist? Radicals are right. Leftists are left.
I pulled the quote from ABC news, it seemed they had spoken with Ms. Parker and verified her claim of knowing him but it could still be incorrect. I just didn't want you to think I just pulled it off a Twitter post.
I agree with your ending statement wholeheartedly. However, I do believe that the Right contributes more to the negativity of the current political discourse than the other side, at least in terms of the severity of their remarks. It's not appropriate, regardless of the source. But you simply do not hear the same quantity of venom coming from the left. Just a couple of days ago Sarah Palin was once again accusing Obama of wanting to weaken America. She did not say that Obama's "policies" would "result" in a weakened America. She said Obama "wanted" to weaken America. Now, what does that actually mean? It means Palin is calling Obama an active TRAITOR to this nation and it's citizens. How many times has she made the same type of hyperbolic statement? And O'Reilly? And Hannity? And Coulter? And Beck? How long before some unbalanced individual acts on these remarks? Beck, O'Reilly, Palin, these people daily make unfounded accusations for effect. But sometimes the effect is more than they likely intended. Sometimes the effect is what happened yesterday in Arizona. We all need to accept responsibility for the fact that words have power, and the words we use can, in fact, have terribly real repercussions.
How can someone be both a libertarian and a social liberal? I understand that an authoritarian personality type can believe two diametrically opposing points of view, but Wow!
" . . . Mr. Farley reports, that he sees signs in Tucson that people of all political stripes are pulling together and calling for peace. . . "
Yeah, right. Just like we were all going to pull together and love one another after 9-11. All just rhetoric. At least it's not the violent, hateful rhetoric we've seen recently. For now.
She knew him from Band Class? He is 22, Band Class was 4 or 5 years ago! How many of us are the same as we were in High School?
Responding to Haddie Nuff:
Ultimately, the libertarian creed is as little government involvement as possible. That means no government regulating business, but it also means no government regulating other aspects of someone's life such as who they can marry, whether or not they can smoke pot, etc. That's how you can be socially liberal and a libertarian.
To clarify, I'm personally not a libertarian but know some who are.
radicals can be either left or right.
Jared Loughner is a lefty. Some girl who saw him in high school said so. And proves it. So there.
xyz99, I agree that liberatarians basically don't like government intrusion in their lives and want as small a government as possible. However, social liberals are pretty much opposite of that. Social liberalism believes there must be social justice and that the state (i.e. government) has a role in providing things such as unemployment, health care, and the expansion of civil rights.
Thus my confusion.
BTW, social liberalism differs from classical liberalism, we just generally don't distinguish the difference much anymore. We've come to view social liberals as just plain liberals without realizing or noting the difference.
RobDon, people tend to assume that a person is politically liberal if they dress or act in a way that's not considered conservative. I don't put too much weight on it. People don't always fit neatly into one's own version of "sides."
Politicians and pundits need to tone down the gun and war metaphors. Period. Context matters. The problem in this context is not violent rhetoric in sports, music or movies. The problem is violent rhetoric in politics.
If you feel like the central issue here is to prove violent rhetoric is not more prevalent on one side or the other so as to obfuscate responsibility, you are really, really missing the point.
We actually do have a record of which people stoked a mob mentality at townhalls. And if they mostly fall on the right, no amount of "both sides are to blame" changes that. The desire to prove that it happens on both sides equally when the record shows otherwise only proves that which side it occurs on more does matter.
Even if this gunman turned out to be a blue blooded lefty liberal homicidal hippie, it wouldn't change how these last 2 years went down. A paranoid person of that stripe could've heard the words of Palin and Angle literally as real threats and decided to act first.
When people say they're going to "take back the country" by force if necessary, that makes people feel threatened. Reasonable people write it off as rhetoric and empty threats. But the message still stands, 'If you don't let us have our way, we're going to keep screaming in your face. And if that doesn't work, we'll shoot you in the face.' Who's to say some paranoid person isn't going to take it at face value and feel justified that they're acting in defense?
(And for that matter, who's to say some Democratic voters didn't vote because they were afraid that if Republicans didn't win, all hell would break loose? Personally I feel like the violent rhetoric is intended to suppress voter turnout. Which may not cause physical harm, but it does harm our democracy.)
Sometimes it seems as though there are people who are really ready to start a civil war or bloody revolution. There doesn't seem to be any Republican leaders saying to cool it. And there does have to be BOTH Democrats and Republicans saying to cool it, because folks don't listen to people they see as the opposition. There's some people who don't listen to anything Harry Reid or President Obama has to say, let alone what Keith Olbermann has to say.
Oh yes, and someone who doesn't share all the same political views of a particular person or party can still be influenced by their tactics. This happens all the time. It's called "fighting fire with fire."
Sarah Palin has a lot of influence, and it mostly is directed towards those who arethe most impressionable ... the sick of mind, the radicals and the young and impressionable. Here is a link to a screenshot of a post on Palin's site just moments after Rep Giffords was inaccurately declared dead. People need to know what kind of minds follow these radical powerful people. I have saved this on my computer because I am sure it will soon disappear from the net.
Haddie Nuff- My bad, I thought by social liberal you just meant the opposite of a social conservative.
For all those folks calling this guy crazy then answer me this one thing.
Do crazy people invoke their constitutional rights once the law snags them? He is keeping his mouth shut. So he knows right from wrong. Plus, it was premeditated. He even tried to run away. He knew what he was doing was wrong. Some folks honestly don't know it's wrong. This guy did.
This guy is not crazy. This guy is just impressionable. He had a motive and a target of opportunity. Everyone hates the government. Therefore, Jared Loughner hates the government. <---- When he writes like that, it shows how impressionable he is. If they do it then he does it. This guy is a classic follower. And he follows those who make the biggest impression on him.
Insanity prevents people from invoking their rights? Really? Even if it did, the suspect's insanity wouldn't prevent his lawyer (and there must be one, even if only a public defender) from invoking them for him. And running away isn't not exactly proof of insanity, either. Unless you think that turning oneself in and making a full confession are proofs of insanity. Nor does it preclude premeditation.
You don't know any more about the why of this than anyone else. He may have had political motivations. He may have had motivations no rational person could understand. It may be both. We need more facts before committing to any theories.
Monk, I appreciate you (and others) being a voice of calm reason. I probably just need to back off and let you and others with lots of "clout" confront those jumping to conclusions. Sad time, sad circumstances, but hopefully good can come from such a senseless tragedy.
Sam, respectfully, people often floating in the world seem and act insane and then, when the cuffs go on, the reality of life takes hold again perforce. In short, YES, insane people invoke their rights against self incrimination all the time. The somehow come to clarity when it helps them.
Not to make a joke of this but it reminds me of the deep thoughts by Jack Handey on SNL - see below
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I remember that one fateful day when Coach too me aside. I knew what was coming. "You don't have to tell me," I said. "I'm off the team, aren't I?" "Well," said Coach, "you never were really ON the team. You made that uniform you're wearing out of rags and towels, and your helmet is a toy space helmet. You show up at practice and then either steal the ball and make us chase you to get it back, or you try to tackle people at inappropriate times." It was all true what he was saying. And yet, I thought, something is brewing inside the head of this Coach. He sees something in me, some kind of raw talent that he can mold. But that's when I felt the handcuffs go on.
There's a difference between crazy and having a character or
personality disorder. Crazies are out of touch with reality but sociopaths
are not. Many criminals are sociopaths; they are dangerous because they
have no conscience and feel no remorse. Kind of a simplification but...
I see what you mean, Bozey, but we don't know yet what this guy is. And people who later plead insanity commonly invoke their rights (often under the advice of counsel). The effect of incarceration and force can bring clarity to a disturbed person even if it is temporary. I would guess this fellow has something like schizophrenia, but who knows. Have a nice night!
good point. thanks, you too...
Sam, this guy isn't a follower - he's a loner by virtue. He is definitely hurting and has had some bad-long-lasting experiences that kept him emotionally/mentally unstable on top of what ever mental illness might have.
Generally Rob, I don't much care for what you say. But about this you are very right. Something I've learned studying the Tao Te Ching is that things move by reversals. Arizona had been called the Mecca of intolerance and bigotry by sheriff of Pima County. In truth the state has been like one great infected pustule that has just grown bigger and more inflamed...Az1070, an active and state sanctioned Neo-Nazi movement performing manuvers in the desert, the mural protests, the attack on ethnic studies in public schools, corrupt private prison industry, genuine death panels...on and on. Whether or not it was the result of a conspiracy or the act of a mad dog killer - with the attempted assassination of a US Congresswoman - that boil has ruptured. Whatever his motivation was, he has just given Sarah Palin, Sharron Angle, Jesse Kelly, Allen West, every Tea Party member who brought guns to rallies or signs saying "we came unarmed...this time" every pol or talking head who ever spoke of bullets as acceptable alternatives to ballots, who spoke in gloating apocalyptic terms of blood and the tree of liberty (a favorite of Timothy McVeigh as well as Thomas Jefferson...let's not BS ourselves)...each and every single one now gets a front row seat to exactly what they are talking about. It doesn't matter what the motivation of the shooter was, that is exactly the result we are talking about.
Anyone who is not moved by this, much less by the death of a lovely child born on 9/11...then they are so devoid of humanity that they are unfit to walk among us. Much less have their own TV or radio show or hold public office. Let there be no Kumbayah. Let us just see clearly who the real monsters are.
This promises to change the political and social landscape almost as much as 9/11 did. If not for the better, then God help us all.
I think that you are confusing crazy with stupid. They are exclusive. It strikes me that the majority of crazy people are NOT stupid. Of course that is just my opinion after attending Grad school in Clinical Psychology as well as a few years working with both.
talksy.com/83221/the-palin-website-with-a-bullseye-over-gabrielle-gifford-s-district-is-down-now
THIS is the remedy that Palin is pushing for. THIS is the result when brutes wield clubs rather than words. THIS is the result when the "oppressed" turn into oppressors. THIS is what happens when you give crude people crude tools. All that comes out is crude work!
If you're aligned with the Tea Party, disassociate yourself from this violent act and the people that perpetrate these kinds of "solutions".
So True, I have really tried hard to be respectful, but sometimes it is hard when you hear all the yelling, lying and crap going on. We are just telling the truth, and they are getting all mad at us for telling the truth. But I will keep checking my facts and telling the truth to everyone I can, because the lies have really gotten out of control. Everything that comes out of there mouths that they say the Democrats want to do actually is what they want to do. It is sickening.
no this is not a democracy
From wikipedia ( en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Representative_democracy )
"The United States relies on representative democracy, but its system of government is much more complex than that. It is not a simple representative democracy, but a constitutional republic in which majority rule is tempered."
-- Scheb, John M. (2006). An Introduction to the American Legal System. Thomson Delmar Learning. p. 6.
"I pledge allegiance to the flag, and THE REPUBLIC for which it stands...."
Enough of this false equivalency! You see this kind of behavior on the Right and not the left. You donb't see violent people on the left. Do you? Admit it and let's solve the problem. I don't want to hear another appologist make reference to both sides when something like this happens. It's Limbaugh,Beck, Hannity, Samuels and the like. Olberman tends toward hyperbolic intellectualism and you know it.
From a report on MSNBC only 4 months ago regarding the manifesto of the shooter at the Discovery Channel building:
Leslie, I am sure you mean well but you are so naive and misinformed.
Everyone knows environmentalists are all lefties. Global warming? Just a hoax!
I'm a Republican now.
This should be a wakeup call to EVERYONE that words can hurt, words DO hurt! Yes, in this country we are guaranteed freedom of speech, but every freedom carries a responsibility. We have the freedom to drive a car, but that freedom is not absolute. We are required to know the laws of the road, to stay to the right, to stop at a red light, to yield to other drivers in certain situations. We are required to pass certain tests, including an eye test so that we don't go blindly (literally) down the roadway unaware of others. Our words can be just as lethal as a car, perhaps more so in some situations. We have a right to own a gun, but we don't have the right to shoot anyone we disagree with. Let's stop focusing so much on what our RIGHTS are and more on what our RESPONSIBILITIES are. When we disagree with an office holder, lets use our words constructively. Let's make suggestions as to how to make things better rather than threaten "if ballots don't work bullets will." And let's all of us, Liberal, Conservative, Democrat, Republican, Progressive, Tea Partier, whatever, stop talking long enough to hear the other guy. We don't have to agree, but we can listen. Once we listen, then we can use reason. Glenn Beck, for all his faults, says to check out what he says. Let's DO that! Instead of name calling and repeating his "flights of fantasy", let's go to the sources. READ the Constitution, including the parts omitted by the opening of congress. Let's READ the Federalist papers, not just take for granted what someone else says they say. We all could benefit by studying the writings of our Founding Fathers instead of taking for granted that one side or the other is correct. Don't just read the parts that say what you want them to say. READ ALL of it! Look at the documents that this country is founded on...warts and all. The Founding Fathers were human beings, not gods. They disagreed with each other. Sometimes they did despicable things. Sometimes they did noble things. Before we invoke their words, we have the responsibility to know what those words actually were, not what some loud mouth on TV or the radio wants us to think so that he can boost his ratings.
Sticks and stones may break my bones, but words can really tear me apart and even kill us both!
I totally agree!
PS...libertarian doesn't mean liberal. Libertarian means small less intrusive government. Socially liberal probably meant he like to smoke weed with his goth friends. Socially liberal doesn't mean politically liberal.
There seems to be little doubt this kid (yes, at even at 22, he's mentally a kid) is imbalanced.
The point of the conversations about the vitriol that it is being spewed is that when it hits the airwaves, imbalanced individuals can perceive it to be a call to action. Those who use the metaphors of "targeting", "lock & load", "big guns", etc., need to understand that there are kooks out there in the world who hear the words but not the metaphorical meanings. Those who command the airwaves, either by their own shows or via their campaigning, need to take responsibility for what they are saying and tone it down. When they don't, they need to be held responsible for the results!
bd, I totally agree with you, but we as individuals also have to accept some of the responsibility for the toxic atmosphere in our country these days. If you read many of the comments sections of online newspapers and blogs, you have stumbled across the just plain nastiness people post.
It's very common to attack the poster, not the poster's opinion. It's also common to blame everything that's ever gone wrong since Eve ate the apple on the entire left or right, depending upon which side the poster opposes. Or the completely illogical bringing up of wrong actions by someone on the other side as an excuse for what was doine by the 'favored' side. There's total failure to accept reality or acknowledging that each side has its share of wrongdoers.
We need to stop this! It promotes hatred and bigotry (bigotry doesn't have to be strictly a racial thing), and it leads to the events that happened in Tucson yesterday. Yes, the media may get things stirred up, but we don't have to lose all sense of proportion or sanity. We do have the choice to make up our own minds and to treat others with respect or not. That's an individual choice.
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Please note; This particular blog has the most respectful and reasoned comments of any I've seen anywhere. Posters here should be congratulated for that.
This isn't the wild west, although some people act as if it were.
Libertarian and socially liberal?
A contradiction? I think so. Trying to rationalize what this person did is a fool's game. Trying to minimilize Sarah Palin's culpatility and that of the other prominent fear mongers is even worse. It's time to call it as we have seen it for almost two years.
This is how Fascists have always operated. Generate a discourse of hate, anger, and fear, and goad the sheep into braying out their fascist slogans, and wait for someone to start the assassinations. Someone, unstable, always does. But the Fascists can claim they're not associated. Thus they prey on the weak to take control of the country.
It's a shame: None dare call it Fascism.
It's never only about the person who pulls the trigger. They are rarely the only ones responsible. Palin said, "Don't retreat, reload!" She put up a map with districts in cross hairs. Glenn Beck goes on his show every night spewing all kinds of violent, inflammatory rhetoric. Limbaugh does the same thing on his show. Did they really think that they could continue to do this and nothing bad would happen? Are they really that stupid? People like Palin, Beck, and Limbaugh's audience is peppered with unstable people, just like the liberal audience. The only difference is that the conservatives use violent imagery and rhetoric which causes these unstable people to pick up guns and do drastic things.
They were asked to tone it down months ago and they refused. And now look what has happened. This is just awful.
"It's never only about the person who pulls the trigger. They are rarely the only ones responsible."
Are you joking? That makes no sense at all. Insanity needs no motivation. Sometimes nuts do nutty things because they hear voices that are not real telling them to do things. I can't speak for this situation but no one else can either. To say there must be some outside motivation behind this guy's action is to ignore an awful lot, including his own nonsensical ramblings.
No offense.
Until I hear that he has been diagnosed with schizophrenia, which is the condition you are describing, I'm going to assume he was motivated by real voices, the voices coming from FOX news and the like.
Someone is who slightly unstable or impressionable doesn't doing things without motivation. And, to my point of view, the motivators are partially responsible. Maybe not responsible to the point of prosecution, but definitely to the point of public scorn.
Ok, CoraH, we'll have to agree to disagree (partially) on that. I read the NY Times piece on him and looked at video stuff of his last night and it seems far worse than a simple impressionable kid to me, but I could be wrong. I also don't agree at all that such folks only act under motivation from outside. But I respect that you disagree.
Have a nice night!
Do we have any evidence that he even followed politics on TV? He WAS 22! We don't even know that he viewed Fox or even knew of Sarah Palin's website!
But, he did read Marx!
There are nutjobs on BOTH sides of the aisle my friends! Perhaps the democratic congress should not have rammed health care down the throats of so many Americans who did not want it! History shows that there are idots and crazies that do horrific things on both sides!
One thing that IS true, is that we are a politically divided nation. If anyone doesn't like Obama's policies, they are called racist. If they don't want gay marriage, they are called homophobic! If they don't believe in the solutions to our prison issues they are called uneducated, racists, etc. YES, RIGHT HERE ON THIS BLOG!
I would say that people on this blog are just as guilty as those they want to silence, yet they won't show self restraint themselves! What the other side says are LIES, what you guys say is the TRUTH! Funny, the other side believes the same thing!
The average American or angry t-partier isn't out there killing people and we can say the same for liberals. And there is no evidence that anything that has been said was a trigger for this nutjobs actions!
If you don't want health care, don't go to the hospital looking for a handout.
"We came unarmed...this time."
Katy, don't get worked up about it. It is just a blog.
does he follow politics?
I think he followed enough...that he talked about rules and stuff being unconstitutional. He blamed rules/laws for his experiences in college.
Motivation is a tricky thing, though. There's not enough info and I can't be sure whether he is simply mentally ill, whether he was screwed up by a toxic political environment, or whether it's some combination of the two or something completely different that I can't yet imagine.
it is tricky and asking questions to find the environment in which this situation happened is all keys into finding motivation.
especially for a person who lives across the country.
i think there is a combination of things that got him to that point. i just wish someone would have gotten him the help he needed before hand.
But, he did read Marx! Just because I said so.
I am an idiot now.
I hold out hope for fruitful interrogations. Everyone knows how unreliable torture is...but in situtations like this, or where there is a clear and present threat to national security...but what about sodium pentathol? Chemical interrogation backed by polygraph?
The only reason he would try to keep silent is if he was covering for others (i.e. conspiracy,) if he was acting on his own he would want to make sure that the POINT of what he was doing was understood. His messages that he left on Youtube bear that out. He would go out of his way to deflate an ad hominen attack upon himself as being a terrorist. He pretty much said that on youtube.
Again, all speculation. All we can do now is wait and see what facts and admissions come to light.
It's hard for me to imagine that he wasn't politically motivated in some way. After all, he showed up at a rally in front of a grocery store. It seems like he would have needed to have some knowledge of local and/or national politics to know that was even going on. I mean, from the sound of it, the rally was kind of a smaller event that would not have been widely publicized. Furthermore, his targets scream political motivation. Additionally, if he was going to shoot up a place because he was crazy, but not politically motivated, the normal first targets are work or school, statistically speaking. Instead, he chose a political figure.
And Katy, just becuase he's 22 doesn't mean he's an idiot about politics and only watches Jersey Shore on the ol' boob tube. I'm also 22, and I have a better idea of what is going on in the world than some people twice my age.
For me, this seems like a repeat of the Dr. Tiller story. Right wingers screamed and yelled that the congresswoman was a traitor to her country, a communist, and practically the mistress of Satan for supporting the health care bill. And now they're acting shocked that someone took them literally and decided to do something about it.
I'm waiting with baited breath to see if they'll use a paper or cloth towel to wipe the blood off their hands. Probably paper. Because, you know, in addition to this horrible situation not being their fault in any way, and not caused by their rhetoric in any way, global warming isn't real, either.
Well, yes, a member of Congress is gravely wounded and a federal judge is killed and it's hard not to suppose it's political. On the other hand, President Reagan was shot in order to impress Jodi Foster. No political motives there. But in this case there's still not enough hard info to justify solid conclusions.
This is true. And maybe I'm totally wrong about this and I'll have to write a retraction. But as of right now...with the small smattering of facts we have set before us, this sounds like a politically motivated assault. Again, if I'm wrong, I'm wrong. There aren't enough facts known yet for me to state emphatically that my theory is the right one.
It sounds like the source of his animus against Gifford was her unwillingness to take a non sequitor question he asked her seriously ("what does politics mean when words have no meaning?") He was also convinced that the world he experienced in his dreams was more real than waking reality. He was a couple of steps removed from the facts optional world of Fox News, so I really would not dignify it as a politically motivated assassination attempt. The end result, however, is exactly the same as if it had been.
I can't help but be cheered at the thought of just how real waking reality will be for him when he is released into the general prison population where he'll have to master the art of concious dreaming with one eye open.
Waiting for your retraction CoraH...
Are you willing to concede now.....come to find out he didn't really watch politics on TV or the internet, and didn't line up with any political party.....
Still haven't heard anything from a reliable source. Last I checked everyone was still spouting theories, much like myself. Haven't tuned into the news yet though, so who knows. I could still be wrong. I could still also be right, however.
P.S. Just because he's not offically alligned with any political party still doesn't mean that he didn't possibly listen to conservative radio hosts or attend conservative talks.
Do you think President Obama is a reliable source? In his speech last night he said it was not the reason! The shooter's close friend said he didn't watch politics, he was in his own little world, he believed in nothingness!
Come'on Cora.....your integrity is on the line here. You jumped to conclusions and there is absoloutely no supporting evidence.
I'm waiting for a psych work up. And you don't have to watch politics on the tv to hear vitriol. Rush and Beck and a host of others spew theirs through the radio, not the tv.
As for what his "close friend" said, there are all kinds of people coming out of the woodwork claiming to know the shooter and know his beliefs. When he has been interrogated and had a psych exam and they've dispatched the report and it says nothing about political motivation, then I will concede. Until then, I'm waiting.
I disagree with you, Corah, about it being politically motivated...but I hasten to add that I think that it was better than even odds that it could have been. Could you imagine the look on Sharron Angle's face if it was? In any case, ignore the petty harpy squawking about your integrity. The motivation of the act is not nearly as important as the fall-out from it and what happens next. Not even what Loughner thought he was doing matters now. There are dead to bury and the recovery of a Congresswoman to watch.
Alright, Katy. You were so desperate to hear my retraction, and since I said I would write a retraction if it turned out I was wrong, I'm abiding by my word and doing it, as much as it sticks in my craw that this will make you gleefully happy.
Ahem...
I was wrong about the 22 year old alleged gunman. I recently read a report saying that the FBI do not believe he was politically motivated.
However, that being said, I still think that this should be used as a "canary in the cave" moment. One in which we back off from extreme hyperbole and violent speaking before another violent attempt that is politically motivated occurs.
Happy now, Katy dear? Yes, I can see you are. Well, I do what I can to ensure the happiness of those around me. At least when I'm not lambasting them and calling them idiots.
I am respectfully surprised! I appreciate the retraction because it was right thing to do, so no gloating from me, at all! I am serious about that.
I agree that the fighting between the left and right could be more civil, and the media (both sides) play a role in hyping things up! But the media jumped right out, ready to blame the right, which in my opinion was very irresponsible and unfair, and it highlights their liberal bias. I would prefer news that concentrated on the facts without the unnecessary speculating. But some of these same news orgs reported the Congresswoman dead (something which her family shouldn't have had to hear) when it was not confirmed! Just BAD reporting and anxious to be first to report. Makes the news more like a gossip show!!
Again, thanks for the retraction. That was big of you to do.
You remain a joke Katy.
Well, if it makes you laugh, then I'm glad! Anything to help you bitter, hateful, negative outlook on humanity!
We will find out a little more about this whack-job come Monday afternoon. He's scheduled to be arraigned at 3 p.m. Mountain Time. That will -- I'm certain -- be followed by a press conference outside the courthouse. We wait and we pray.
So when are they going to bring charges against Sara Palin and Sharon Angle And the rest of the teabaggers if not then i gues i will have to put up pics of them with targets over their faces and tell people to start using thier second amendment solutions to solve the problem
This guy is obviously mentally unstable, but this is what happens when you encourage hate. Sharron Angle pushing for people to use their second amendment rights, and Sarah Palin putting crosshairs over districts and naming the people that needs to be taken out. She then replaced the clear crosshairs with a bloody crosshair when they did lose their seats. Sarah Palin, Sharron Angle, Michele Bachman, Glenn Beck, Shawn Hannity etc are not responsible for pulling the trigger on that gun, but they are responsible for providing the ammo and removing the safety. We can only hope both parties learn something from this and lead by example in a civil bi-partisan way from now on. I have my doubts though.
It always scares me when people think they can silence others! We don't know that this guy has even looked at Sarah Palin's website or listened to Fox! I think it is a little "out there" to suggest that someone someone uninvolved has some blame. You could just as easily say that Nancy Pelosi does for ramming health care don't the throat of Americans!
And where did you hear ramming health care down the throats of Americans. Oh wait that's what Sharron Angle said, Sarah Palin, Fox contributors like Glenn Beck. See these quotes from these people get stuck in peoples heads and they act on them such in a way as you have. Political hate has to stop in this country or we will never fix it's problems. Sarah Palin was asked numerous times to pull down that map due to fear of violence from it, and the others have been asked to tone down their hate rhetoric and they refused to do so. You are right we do not know if this is fully politically motivated, but this womans window was smashed out for voting for health care which was an attack that was. The gas lines being cut of the Rep brothers was. It needs to stop on all sides it is immature, unprofessional, and dangerous.
OSU Fan, sorry but she is absolutely right. The polls said at the time and Dem pollsters even warned in an open writing - RARE INDEED - that if they continued to force the healthcare bill through without republican support they would pay for it at the polls. Turned out to be accurate. You may well support the bill which is fine but we all know it was forced through and there really is no disputing that fact. It had to be because it didn't have anything like broad support and that didn't matter to people in the DNC, 60+ of whom are either unemployed or working as lobbyists right now.
No offense.
Katy, I don't think they are trying to shut people up so much as trying to shut them down and that, in some instances, is fine. It is all getting to be too much on both sides but blogs are meaningless babble.
I don't at all agree with drawing any link between this nut and the far right but I can see how someone could. I can't blame people for jumping the gun because of what the sheriff said yesterday and because I don't live in or follow AZ politics.
Peter, what you are calling 'forcing through' is normally called 'majority rule'. In reality there is absolutely no reason why any bill should need the support of the minority party. That would, in essence, be John C Calhoun's 'concurrent majority'. But that's really just blatant political hypocrisy. Calhoun was just looking for any reason for his political faction to always have its way; and Republicans never care about courting Democratic support when they're in the majority (at least, since the '90s).
Maybe I am jumping ahead in thinking this is completely political, but no one can say what these folks have said and implied is not dangerous rhetoric. People in those health care town meetings were acting insane, and when asked about what they didn't like they couldn't even say. They would say things like Glenn Beck says its bad. They didn't even know what they were complaining about. Beck, Palin, Hannity and the rest didn't care they just wanted to be popular and make money. You have about 50% of people that get riled up and shake their heads, 45% get involved and speak out and 5% are nuts who might act on what they say. Those 5% are the ones you have worry about. When asked to calm down the hate speech and pull down the violent map they said no and then made fun of Democrats. Well who the hell is laughing now.
As far as the health bill goes. It's not what most Democrats wanted either they wanted a public option, but they figure its a start.
I have asked many Republicans if we were to get a 2/3rds State agreement to put on the ballot to vote into law a health care waiver. This would be a waiver that those opposed to the govt health insurance would sign that binds them to a lifetime contract stating that they opt out of the plan. By signing this you would never ever be able to receive the insurance even if you lost your job and company insurance. In turn you would be exempt from the mandate stating you would never be responsible for paying a dime into it, and those that wanted it could have it and those that don't are not involved in it. SO FAR out of about 100 people I have asked NONE would agree to it. So It seems to come down to. Oh I will take the insurance I just want something to complain about and threaten people with hate and violence.
Nobody is laughing..... it is absolutely heartbreaking!
But, isn't it just continuing the hate and rhetoric when you pin this on someone like Sarah Palin. There is no evidence that he even viewed her site, liked her, or agreed with her politics!
Plus, I think someone else mentioned the violence on TV, movies, and video games. With technology improvements in graphics and video animation, those things can seem more realistic than ever before! Perhaps they are having a greater effect, especially in that age range!! Not that I have any evidence he played those either, but everything is speculation at this point.
I clarified I may have been jumping ahead in assuming this was politically motivated, but there is absolutely no denying the hate that has been spread across this country by political leaders and wanna be's. It is dangerous and if it had nothing to do with this incident I can only pray it never does. Now is the time to stand up admit being irresponsible and move forward in a grown up manner. I think its time politicians starting running on what they can do to make this a better country not trying to point out what others did wrong, and causing complete chaos. I am referring to all political parties.
Katy264- Let's see, first we had 9/11 thrust upon us, then a war, the Patriot Act, a torture scandal, another war and a near-complete meltdown of the financial system. All that must have gone down real easy for you. Then the country -- by a super-majority -- goes and elects a black man who wants to give ALL Americans a way to obtain affordable health care, and the "ramming" begins: "Death panels," "baby killer," "liar," "Kenyan," "take back OUR country," "second amendment solutions," "bankrupt Social Security," "racist," "socialist," a relatively tiny ACORN grown into an oak tree, two people calling themselves"New Black Panthers" exulted to a "terrorist" organization, a falsely accused administrator, rabid Islamophobia, skyrocketing incidents of threats and attacks on elected representatives, the party of "Hell No" poor-people-don't-count-unless-you-give-a-perk-to-the-rich, and now this.
Yeah, sounds like something is stuck in your craw, and it AIN'T health care. More like sour grapes.
OSU Fan, I like the idea about the opting out forever and would support such an idea but I don't think it would fly because in order to make it work everyone has to contribute even if they never set foot in a doctor's office.
Hi MMonk! I agree with you 100% about the republicans ignoring the democrats from 2000-2006 and I knew then that it would lead to problems but the democrats didn't want majority rule then and did what they could to stop things when they didn't want them AND they thought the country was on their side - that is a pretty big difference, the public being on your side. They also did what they could to stop judges from being confirmed for some time as is happening again. I knew it was going to get ugly when the dems came into power but I didn't guess it would get as ugly as it would.
I would love to see us become a truly majority-rule country but I don't think most would. I would also like to see referendums (real ones) on things like healthcare so we can truly see who supports what and we don't have to devolve into what we have now. I mean, I know and respect people who support the healthcare bill but how can you - not you personally - act like supporting a bill that everyone says changes entitlements, taxes, restrictions, regulations and which the party in support hasn't even read (and didn't write it!!) and states so explicitly on numerous occasions? No one is ever going to be able to defend that and most just ignore it but we all saw it – everyone and not just on Foxnews. John Conyers, who voted for it, said he had no intention of reading it - ever! Nancy Pelosi said that she hadn't read it and later said that we have to pass it to see what is in it and when asked to clarify that remark she wouldn’t (because she couldn’t). No one in anything but a deep-in-the-left district ran on the bill as an accomplishment but, rather, in their opposition to it. The middle-of-the-road districts where reps voted for the bill, like the poor congresswoman, were swept away almost to a man. The guys who voted against it generally did just fine and now own the field. It wasn’t passed in the way the rules would normally require, like those rules or not, and for such a massive piece of legislation everyone knew it was going to mean trouble or should have known.
What I mean to say is that the bill did not have support and the people then in the majority knew it and had been put on notice about the consequences of it by their own people beforehand - published publicly - and they didn't care what the majority of people thought. Like it or not, the majority of people were on the side of the republicans (not to say the party but the specific position) and everyone knew it. Is that why the republicans won? I can't say for sure but one can't say with a straight face that the healthcare bill saved a single democrat's job.
So, when you ignore what the majority of people want even when they are at meeting yelling at you what do you get? Circumspice!
Now we have a bill that no one likes, including the left, and that will not be funded anytime soon because of majority rule and which may be completely undermined by the courts (and I state for the record that I support both the denial of funding and the court challenges to the mandate as you already know) and we will be left with a mess and no one ever again will consider trying to pass what should have been passed in the first place - something that had broad public support and which the republicans would have had no choice but to go along with (no denials of coverage for pre-existing illness, catastrophic coverage, etc.) because of public support.
Sorry to go on long, MMonk, but I’m stuck in JFK waiting for a flight.
Have a nice day and don’t take anything I’m saying to be disrespectful, not intended to be.
America's underlying shame
by Leslie Frostig Miller on Sunday, January 9, 2011 at 3:39pm
I have heard several accounts now about how disturbed this young man was. There is a long history of some obvious mental illness. To me the underlying shame in all of this is that he apparently had no access to help. Woulda, coulda, shoulda doesn't really help here, but what if he had been given the help he so desperately needed? What if we cared about mental illness the same way we care about heart attacks? What if we were a society that cared about all of its citizens? Could we have checked him into a hospital until we found out what his chemical imbalance was? Might that have saved a few lives and an untold amount of pain? What if?
Political Strife
The ideology of the Tea Party, Fox News and Glenn Beck are parallel; they all are against democratic political views, current government policies and socialism. These ideologies have created political strife, xenophobia and extremist monsters. The Tea Party, Fox News and Glenn Beck must tone it down. Also I will like to say that the word Obamacare is racist.
I'm can't speak to Beck because I never watch it, but otherwise you are completely wrong.
So, if you are against socialism, you are responsible for all the monsters in the world! I thought the left was an educated bunch!
I have to say I think you are right, except that "Obamacare" isn't racist. It's just ignorant. (Remember "Hillarycare"?)
I must say that there are some on the left who go just a bit far, too. I had been a huge fan of Olbermann, but he really went off the track for a while (still short of moving people to violent action, though). I think he's toning it back some nowadays, but he's just not the same as he once was: liberal but very fair. Rachel, on the other hand, ROCKS!
Katy, connect the dots for us...what does "Obamacare" have to do with this shooting?
So, if you are against socialism, you are responsible for all the monsters in the world!
Don't ask me what socialism is, I don't have a clue.
I am such an idiot.
I don't know about being an idiot, but you are DEFINITELY not a comedian!
DQ, I don't think I used the term "Obamacare", did I?
I did bring up healthcare reform as an example of issues that have divided the nation (obviously) and as an issue that, if you disagree with the the new law, usually gets a response from the left that you are racist, hate the poor, ignorant, etc. I can promise you those are the responses to me, right here on archived blogs.
And, I admit that I have been just as sarcastic in response!
At the end of the day, none of it is productive! It doesn't help us value each others opinions, doesn't help us see things from the other's perspective, doesn't create a bridge! Just divides.
The left is just as guilty as the right. For every Beck, there is an Obermann. I would prefer much more objective news that really seeks out answers, reports the news, provides comparisons without slanted adjectives, just plain old investigative news that attempts to find the truth! What we have now is entertainment, as you said about me before DQ, just a carwreck that you can't turn away from, but should!
Yep. Ignorant.
Like the FEMA concentration camps. Like how everyone needs to take to the streets and TAKE THEIR COUNTRY BACK. Like how Obama is a racist radical communist nazi Kenyan who hates white people. Good old fashioned journalism like that. Like how health care reform enshrines death panels (not to mention honest to God death panels going down in Arizona.) Gotcha. Sure.
Ok, you mean like, in the words of Obama....
“If Latinos sit out the election instead of saying, ‘We’re gonna punish our enemies and we’re gonna reward our friends who stand with us on issues that are important to us,’ if they don’t see that kind of upsurge in voting in this election, then I think it’s gonna be harder and that’s why I think it’s so important that people focus on voting on November 2.”
I didn't know that Obama was a journalist for Fox News.
And are you REALLY claiming that Loughner was some kind of VICTIM, that the assassination attempt and murder of a 9 yr old girl, among others, was a protest against TAXES and HEALTH CARE REFORM?
As usual, I have no idea what you are talking about DQ. I am suggesting that this guy may have been mentally disturbed! I am saying that there is evidence that people are execising their free speech on both sides of the aisles and it isn't always pretty, and if you don't like the rhetoric, you can't, without being hypocritical, point you finger at the other guy!
Of course I am not suggesting that health care reform had anything to do with this. What are you talking about? The rhetoric apparently had nothing to do with this either. The guy was a registered independent who didn't vote this last election! Just a nut job, mad at the police and school! But for those that seek to silence the right and use this incident for political gain, are the sickest of all.
It simply floors me that ANYONE on the left would be for censorship. That seems so against the basic principals of any liberal.
-- Joan Baez
-Baez was a little before my time-but I really started researching her a few years ago after a tv special.
The youth of today have no role models like her and others of that era--who do they have...Snooki, the Kardashians...????
My goodness, isn't that frightening? Glad to see that I am not the only one who worries about that.
:-)
You are so right...as scary as that is!
In all fairness, there are younger artists/musicians etc who are active in social justice arenas - they just don't get mainstream coverage.
Flobots - White Flag Warrior ft. Tim McIlrath
Flobots - Rise
There is nothing incongruous with being both libertarian (wanting limited government intrusion) and being socially liberal (wanting the government to stay out of issues that only concern individuals - drugs, sexuality, reproductive rights, etc. In fact, it's the so-called libertarians like Ron Paul (who many cite as inspiration for the Tea party movement) who are socially conservative that sound more like hypocrites.
As to Loughner, his theories on YouTube make me think he was suffering from Schizophrenia. Ironically, Giffords vote for PACA/HCR ensured that Loughner and other 20-somethings could have more affordable access to healthcare by staying on their parents' plans (Loughner was still living with his parents, but I haven't seen any reporting as to whether they had health insurance or not).
What I can't figure out, is how someone who was kicked out of community college with a specific direction to not return until he had been certified by a physician as to his mental stability was able to still go out and buy a firearm and an extended clip which allowed him to shoot TWENTY people - at least one FOUR TIMES - prior to reloading.
Reminds me of another college shooter-same situation.
I really hate it when people use the word "loner" in this context. Loners isolate themselves by choic. Their worst nightmare is other people and they are not motivated by others' reactions to their actions. The type of person who did this is a misfit, not a loner - their very action screams for attention and the reaction of other people, which is the opposite of what any true loner wants.
I say he was a loner by virtue...he had a hard time in being a follower and he wasn't a leader.
Editorial: The Garland Area Democratic Voice, Garland, Texas Publication Date 1/12/11 by Rachel Baker Ford, Editor
The events in Arizona today have more than saddened me. I am angry. Angry with the, to use the words of the Sheriff of Pima Co. words, vitriolic rhetoric. There is a long known fact one cannot [legally] yell, "FIRE!" in a theater. One cannot [legally] incite to riot. Yet, it has been perfectly acceptable by many to, "target individuals." "Put them in the cross hairs!" To, "Kill the ...bill ...opposition," and so forth. Words can kill, as my Mother would say.
Today in Tucson, Arizona, this was proven once again. A child and 5 adults were gunned down. 15 others were seriously injured on a grocery store sidewalk.
In 1987-88, I worked with the Peace Conference: Global Peace: From Vision to Reality, chaired by Vivian Castleberry, well-known Dallas Peace Activist. One of the first areas where we received training was in personal freedom, especially in recognizing and removing violent language from our personal vocabulary. I confess, this is an ongoing process for me. Perfection certainly evades me. However, small changes do make a difference. I never, "hit" a key on the computer; I "press" a key. Subtle, yes; profound, certainly. How many times have I not promoted, "hitting," in these 23 years? And this is just one word.
Keith Olbermann, during his show tonight (1/8/11), apologized for his use of vitriolic rhetoric and admonished his audience, expecially those of us in the media to apologize as well and to stop participating in the hate. I apologize where I have participated in the vitriolic rhetoric, hate-filled, violent language. I ask each of you to participate in this journey.
"Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness...for ourselves and our posterity." Only when we are all free, will any of us have freedom. Sew the blessings of our liberty one word at a time. Rachel Baker Ford, Editor
The Garland Area Democratic Voice - News and Information for Garland Democrats published monthly by the Garland Area Democratic Club, Garland, TX.
We offer our thoughts and prayers to Rep. Gifford, to all the families of the victims and to the people of Tucson and Arizona.
And the Jersey Shore was the highest rated show ever for its network.
Run the old clips of Hitler's speeches, Rush, Beck and any Democrat of your choosing.
What?
Rachel
I'm not sure I like using this public forum to bring this to your attention, but I am not sure how else to reach the one person that might understand.
I am particularly disturbed by certain conservatives to quickly characterize Jared Loughner as an isolated deranged individual and to take no responsibility for his actions.
When my wife and I heard this story we looked an each other and we both had the same thought - this could be our grandson. He is a wonderful individual who I can only describe in this forum as someone who is not completely in control of his own mind.
Our daughter has been holding her breath recently hoping that he could hold it together at least until after the new year when he would have access to some mental health benefits as a result of the age 26 provision of health care reform.
But he has some outbursts that are frightening in the level of rage that this child expresses and some of it is expressed at people that are the favored targets of right wing hate people. He doesn't get this from his family.
I'm not even sure he pays enough attention to TV, radio or the Internet. It is simply "out there" and he somehow latches on to it.
If the right wingers are going to hide behind "deranged" then they should also support health care benefits, especially mental health benefits, for everyone.
If the right wingers are going to hide behind "deranged" than they should support denying guns to such people.
They should do what right wingers claim everyone else should do - take responsibility.
This is exactly what I mean. Maybe the kid is outraged, because he is going to be paying our debt for the rest of his life. Because he will be taxed out the arse for all the spending! Maybe he is outraged because he doesn't have anyone to talk to about HIS beliefs, because the whole family believes differently! Maybe he feels concerned about his future!
Hopefully he will find someone to talk to about his anger!
But what do people who are conservative and exercise their freedom of speech, have to do with your grandson's problem? If you really believe that, would you also believe that nutjobs on the left are the responsibility of liberals?
Maybe you are experiencing in your own household what the nation is experiencing, two sides that don't value the other's opinion!
"outraged, because he is going to be paying our debt for the rest of his life. Because he will be taxed out the arse for all the spending"
Katy, when you repeat these tired phrases, you show your reliance on right-wing rhetoric to make invalid points seem more convincing. Any excuse is a good excuse when you're looking for excuses. But, that lame bunk isn't even close to adequate reasoning for taking 6 lives and wounding 16 people. That you would drag in out in this tragic instance is deplorable.
That is why I reiterate...are you claiming that this killer was some kind of VICTIM? That this act of attempted assassination was a TAX PROTEST? REALLY?
Read Dandme28's post! His/her granson really doesn't get it from TV, the internet, or radio, but somehow the right wing rhetoric is to blame. This statement seems a little "out there" to me.
I wasn't talking about the crazy shooter! DQ I don't know why you insist on putting words into my mouth! Either you don't read my posts properly or you just like to stir up trouble. Given your past, it is probably the latter.
?!Excuse me!?
Just what part of your last statement:
jives with this part of your first posting:
You can't even make sense long enough to hold a credible logic line before you lamb blast someone - which seems to be your point.
Don Q and StickyMeans make excellent points. You are portraying him as a victim, and your arguments in trying to make invalid points are...beyond the pale.
I would add, what kind of compassionate or caring human being would assault these heartfelt concerned and caring grandparents with your incoherent attack, ending with:
Who the h*ll are you to insert your hurtful and false assessment that these people maybe haven't seen their grandson in the proper light as to be able to help him as you obviously feel you can do...
If anyone here is using this platform to lash out at others, it is you Katy - look in the mirror - and maybe get a heart.