2/6 Update below! Thanks to chemgirl in the comments for some new links. This is veering toward bunk.
Commenter Tomm JOnzz points out that one detail left out of Rachel's Friday report on the Green Bay Packers is that the G on the Packers' helmets stands for "greatness" and not the commonly assumed "Green Bay." He cites the video on this page in which former football player Tiki Barber informs members of the Green Bay team of this bit of trivia to their near unanimous surprise.
Though Mr. Barber seems confident of his research, and football fans across the Internet (or at least across the google) seem to be taking him at his word, I was skeptical. I don't have the same passion for football as some of my colleagues but I couldn't resist a quick fact check. Having done some digging I still have a tiny bit of doubt, but I have at least ruled out "because Tiki said so" as the primary source of this information.
The Packers' web site was disappointingly missing this detail. The team historian, Lee Remmel, does address the question of the G helmet several times, but mostly to settle questions about its date of origin -particularly compared to other teams that sport a G.
In one answer he even goes into detail about the font style:
The Packers began sporting the 'G' on their helmets in 1961.
...
For the record, the 'G,' reportedly designed by the late G.E. "Dad" Braisher, longtime Packers equipment manager, is known in the trade as a "stretched G," according to Bryan Nehring, Packers assistant equipment manager. Officially and technically, the specific font is described as "Futura Bold Stretched."
All very interesting, but no mention of "greatness." I would call Mr. Remmel directly but I figure this is not such a good weekend to bother him.
The best online source for the "greatness" factoid that I could find is the Packerpedia, which contains the sentence I find most copied in researching the answer:
To most people's minds, the "G" stands for "Green Bay". However, when the logo was designed and adopted, it was determined the "G" would stand for "Greatness".
Sadly, no citation - nor any greater specificity than "it was determined." What is reassuring, however, is that looking at the history of the "Logos and uniforms of the Green Bay Packers" Packerpedia page, it appears that the helmet G detail has been part of their record since August 15, 2010, which also appears to be the beginning of that page, and is at least a signficant amount of time before Tiki said so.
Less formally, there are message boards that mention that G is for greatness farther back than that. So even a skeptic who wants to argue that "greatness" was not the original meaning of the G has to at least admit that the greatness association is established team lore.
What makes me skeptical still is the detail mentioned in Packerpedia that in 1959, the same year as the G was created, the team had an alternate logo that was an interlocking "GB." So they had two new logos, one that was a GB and one that was a G and surely the GB stood for Green Bay but the other only stood for greatness?
I'm going with "not bunk" on this one because I don't have enough evidence to overrule the call on the play, but we can keep the matter open for review in case you have something further to present.
UPDATE 2/6: Chemgirl in the comments on this post shares a great link to a sports uniform blog which in turn directs us to a Packers-specific uniform blog - the blog of the Green Bay Packers Uniform Database - which takes up the question of the G's meaning:
"It's not true."
He cites the lack of supporting evidence anywhere. It's one thing for me, who knows nothing about Packers uniforms, to find no evidence and therefore not be able to rule one way or other. But when a guy who's so devoted to the subject that he has a blog and a database hasn't heard of this and can't find any corroborating evidence, that carries significantly more weight.
I'll still be interested if Lee Remmel weigs in, but I'm moving my bet to "bunk."
Incidentally, the database's timeline makes no mention of the interlocking GB described in the Packerpedia, so I'm casting that back into the pool of debatability.
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As a side note, the blogger, Chance Michaels', remarks on Wikipedia are my sentiments exactly:
This is my problem with Wikipedia. It's a great clearing house for references; read up on a subject and follow the sources, but don't believe anything that isn't supported.
I've found that Wikipedia is a great starting point for research because of the references and citations, but you can't trust its actual content. (On the Tiki question, last I looked it was marked with the telltale "citation needed.")
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If this is true, Will, then the stretched C on the Chicago Bears' helmets must stand for "Crap offensive line and QB who can't make a decision quick enough to save his life jumbled together with blown possessions that ultimately lead to getting spanked by your arch rivals on your own turf."
Yeah, that's definitely what the C stands for. But, then again, I'm a chic, so what do I know? And Vanessa, honey, you've got some deep issues. Have the boss lady fix you a drink. Cheers!
As a Packer fan it was even sweeter getting to the big show by defeating the Bears.
Next year, buddy. Next year.
Lee Remmel's an awesome guy. I remember him being on the news many times, and the guy is like a walking Packers encyclopedia. I bet he'd be MORE than happy to give more information about the "G" and if anybody would know anything, it's him. I'm just hoping for a lot of "Greatness" tomorrow!
This is why the Rachel Maddow Show is the best political commentary on television. (1) What matters are the facts. (2) If the facts lead somewhere different than where they wanted to go, they go with the facts anyway. (3) They do their research, verifying "facts" as reported by others. (4) They do this in service of understanding not only the arcane rules of Senate filibusters, but also the origin of sports logos.
What a cool story. Hope it turns out to be true. I just love bizarre trivia.
And the Cleveland Browns got their name because they look like s€¿t on the field
The Detroit Lions because they are lying when they say their going to win.
everyone knows the steelers are theives
Don't get me started on the raiders and panties
Steelers are thieves! LOLOLOL!! :)
If anyone will know about Green Bay's helmet G, it would be sports uni guru Paul Lukas (www.uniwatchblog.com; @UniWatch). Here's his column on the Super Bowl:
Sorry Chemgirl, I forgot to turn on the links permissions for this post.
Here is the Super Bowl link you were trying to share:
http://www.uniwatchblog.com/2011/02/06/a-super-bowl-45-years-in-the-making/
And it contains a link that is probably the most authoritative opinion on the G question so far: http://packersuniforms.blogspot.com/2011/02/g-stands-for.html
Thanks!
Thanks, Will! I wondered why the links I tried to post wouldn't appear. Lukas' most recent espn.com UniWatch column doesn't address the G, either, but it's a good read of all things aesthetic on this year's Super Bowl:
http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=lukas/110203_uni_watch_super_bowl
geez. sorry, Lukas, but it's not the biggest event on the planet, not even today, not even this week.
it might be the biggest event in the US, certainly, but i think the rest of the planet is going to be paying attention to Egypt today, something that actually has consequences in peoples' lives beyond those involved.
and the biggest event on the planet is the other football championship, the World Cup.
Did anyone else think it strange - or even notice - during Rachel's Super Bowl report on Friday, she talked about PIT only having their logo on one side of their helmet (the right side) and then the TRMS graphic behind her for the rest of the segment - GB and PIT helmets - showed the PIT helmet with the logo on the left (i.e., wrong) side??
See 0:25 and 0:57:
i chalked it up to artistic license.
otherwise, the Steelers could essentially only be presented in a 'head-to-head'/helmet-to-helmet graphic on the left which probably isn't kosher depending on the game, such as which is (considered) the home team and which is the away team, probably like in the court system the plantiff is always listed first. like Will, however, i really don't have the passion for football (or Big Sports buisness, which is why i only hope GB wins, rather than actual rooting) to say for sure. i did find the typography tidbit interesting, tho: Futura Bold Stretched. :P
i've got conflicting information on that home-away arrangement.
it's indisputable that Packers are the designated home team, and what images i have found related to this years game also depict Packers on the left, Steelers on the right, but i've got this Yahoo Answers page (probably less reliable than Wikipedia) on which everybody states that the home team is listed second - on the right or bottom.
I'm NOT generally interested in sports trivia AT ALL; I come to this discussion PURELY from a sociological perspective... but people: OF COURSE the G is for "Greatness!"
And OF COURSE it REALLY stands for Green Bay!
Who, when designing a logo or cheering for a team, or doing ANYTHING, doesn't come up with other words that fit the initials of their team, their name, their company, etc, to represent how they feel about [whatever it is they're replacing initials for]..??
Can you imagine the logo designer putting the G (for Green Bay) on the helmet, and then NOT saying in both fun and seriousness "Hey, man, the G stands for 'Greatness!'...??" Or if the designer wasn't a Packers fan, he might have said it stood for "Goof-offs" or "Girlie-men."
Bunk isn't even the word for what this is... it falls under "DUH" for me. "Greatness is both obviously NOT what the G stands for, AND almost certainly part of what the designer was thinking.
Come on now, everybody! Sheesh.
i also assumed that it was for "Green Bay" (with the odd exclusion of the "B"), but during the Barber video when one of the players said it was for Green Bay and was then informed it's for Greatness, i was expecting one to say - half seriously/half jokingly - 'that's what i said; Green Bay is Greatness, same thing' or along those lines. :)
Back to Egypt: Why doesn't Rachel interview Juan Cole on her show? I don't know anyone else who knows so much about the Middle East and Islamic culture(s) as him, and he has insights no one else is writing in the U.S. press: http://www.juancole.com/2011/02/egypt-i-ask-myself-why.html
Juan Cole is a Ph.D, professor, long-time blogger, and book author - all on the topics of middle east politics and religion.
Hey, speaking of helmets, what team does the dolphin on the Miami Dolphins helmet play for? It's wearing a helmet, but not a Miami Dolphins helmet.
Here's sports uniform guru Paul Lukas on the Dolphins' helmets ... and all other animal-mascotted professional teams' helmets/hats/uniforms, too. (column is 6 yrs old but still a good read)
http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=lukas/050113
All of us from Kansas know the "N" on the University of Nebraska helmet stands for "nolledge" (Knowledge). I guess it's better when you speak it, than when you write it!
i chuckle...mostly because your nic is "Iowa.." and yet you state "all of us from Kansas.."...but the rest is funny too :)
I like Green Bay. The backup QB is from my home town and went to my boys HS. So I've got to root for them. It doesn't hurt that they are a NFC team also. Go Packers.
Though I admit for the record that I am not much of a sports fan, I do like the story or the idea behind it. Maybe it stands for "Greatness", maybe it stands for "Green Bay" or maybe it stands for "Galoot".
But, let's just wait until the end of the game tonight before we decide what the "G" actually stands for.
Seems Fox hijacked the superbowl. I'm surprised they didn't have a Civil War re-enactment right there on the field.
PS...the G stands for "Gonna take a early flight home from Texas once the Steelers win their 7th superbowl"
It has to be true, it was a trivia question on Wisconsin Public Radio, WHLA on Friday.
Q: "What does the G stand for on their helmets?"
A: "Greatness!"
heh; sorry to have triggered your quasi-OCD, journalistic instinct, sending you down how many rabbit holes on the intertubes, Will.
like you, i don’t have the passion for football or Big Sport that others do and so, also not being in the news, if it didn’t wasn’t actually for ‘greatness,’ i wouldn’t really care any more than a sports fan knowing that the world-devouring Galactus comics character (who has sometimes been drawn with an identical stretched G on ‘his’ armor, tho i haven’t been able to find an example online) isn’t really a giant humanoid (with a stretched G) but a force of nature which is seen by various intelligent beings as something they can associate with or comprehend.
i am glad you picked it up tho; it's triggered my own get-to-the-bottom-of-things curiousity. i also rather naturally assumed the G was for Green Bay, tho oddly missing a B, so i’m not sure exactly which way to lean myself: bunk or not-bunk.
it makes sense to me that it would stand for Green Bay, but then it would make more sense if they’d gone with the interlocking GB which is ubiquitous for teams with two-word names. since the G was designed at the same time as that GB, it would also follow that it’s for Green Bay.
as for PackersUniforms blog, first, is it just a blog, or is it official? second, it doesn’t mention the GB-interlock, so it’s not the end-all and be-all of Packers or Packers uniform info. third, it asserts unequivocally that ‘it’s not true’ and says that there’s no support or source for it, but which is a two-way street: there’s no source or support that says it’s not and that it is for Green Bay, George, gouda, or some other thing, or at least it's not provided, so he hasn’t firmly debunked it. as the blogger is certainly a die-hard Packers fan, i have to wonder if the blogger just doesn’t want it to stand for greatness, which does seem, after all, rather silly.
so the strongest case i find for it to be bunk is that it was presented along with a GB logo, surely standing for Green Bay. however, given what Ms. Maddow and TRMS has just informed us of the team’s rather unique history and standing, maybe it’s not so far-fetched, so the strongest case for it being not-bunk is Green Bay is just a little weird. :P
and like in comics, there's the possibility of a retcon, in that some coach or other person associated with the university was giving a pep talk and threw in, 'you know what that 'G' stands for? it stand for Greatness!'
here, tho, is another bit of trivia, about the Super Bowl, which to the best of my meager abilities, i have determined to be true – Super Bowl was named for mundane Wham-O toy, and the owners hated it.
There is your answer! It stands for "Great"! Congratulations to the GB fans! Now back to Puppy Bowl VII.
i had a feeling you picked the winner :)
Just goes to show you that private enterprise isn't all it's cracked up to be. Cheeseheads RULE! Get over it Pittsburgh!
well the Packers won the Super Bowl on Feb. 6th, Reagan's birthday, so obviously the G stands for "Gipper."
Mr. Femia:
Yes, this is a technical problem with the site, not a comment on this thread, but I am not a member of Twitter, I do not want to join Twitter, and I do not think I should have to join Twitter to report a technical problem.
I cannot access "new comments" on threads I am tracking in the app at the bottom. The app itself refuses to acknowledge that I am logged in even though the main page says I am.
What is the problem?
you don't have to be a member of twitter to report problems.
my guess is that newsvine is being overloaded, and thus having a hard time accessing. i notice when i hit new comments on the tool bar at the bottom, it takes awhile to collect the data.
Just now, I logged in again, and the app says I have 30 unread new comments. However, down below, it says:
"
Tired of trying to remember where you left comments?
Log in to your account using the tab on the left and all of your conversations will show up here. When people respond to your comments, you'll be the first to know!"
Hi Edgar, sorry it took me so long to respond. What browser are you using? I find that Chrome doesn't handle the toolbar very well. I never use IE but when I have to deal with the blog I do because it seems to handle the tools the best.
Rachel,
I have to say this…there is one of your commentaries that has lifted me up. I’ve practically forced my colleagues and friends to sit through the video of this particular cut. Partially, because I want people to see it and partially because I want to continually indulge myself. Indulge? Yes. For all the political strife and world unrest, this particular segment of your show brought me a great deal of satisfaction. I have and will continue to force any unsuspecting bystander to watch it, if only for my own satisfaction. The sole reason is that it makes me happy. Which segment? The one on the Green Bay Packers. It was a moment that showed me that there is more in this world than greed, conflict, ideological differences, political infighting, etc.
Thank you, Rachel. I’ve bookmarked that segment and when I feel that the world around me is disintegrating, I plan to play it. Which probably means several times a day.
Sofie