It includes teachers....So It is just as bad.

It's actually very different from simply "asking for wage concessions." They're not trying to do this as part of a new labor agreement; they're trying to unilaterally abolish the unions' right to bargain in the first place. If they want the unions to make concessions (of any sort) to help with the budget shortfall, there's a place to do that... the bargaining table.

This is very different from asking for wage compensation.

Unionization and the right to strike are profoundly important for more than just money.

Who would you complain to if management did something stupid and you got poisoned at work?

Government workers often have no access to worker protection, like OSHA resources, so union representation is the only way to obtain any form of labor protection. Government workers, like teachers, often have to deal with stalking. Only someone that has worked in the field would have any clue about how to deal with that kind of thing.

You can't just fire a government employee when they don't show up to work. Who knows? They might be tied up.

Government workers have no protection from OSHA? In which country....

Katy, that would be in the US. OSHA does not cover state and local government employees. These employees may be covered by state protections in the 27 states that have state programs covering their public employees, but not by federal OSHA.

http://www.osha.gov/dcsp/osp/faq.html#oshaprogram

mightbealiberal: Once again she is proving that objective reality means nothing to her.

How about all the legislators, higher paid employees, AND THE GOVERNOR, giving up their pay while the State is in an economic bind? Why is it that it is always the lowly State worker who must give up on wages, pensions, etc? Much more money could be saved if the higher-ups let go of their tax payers wages, because I would bet many of them are already business owners and moneybags and could well afford to give up something. THAT WOULD BE A CHANGE, WOULD IT NOT????????

Edgar - Actually, I would not be surprised if there were others who might not realize that OSHA, like many other programs, does not protect (or only partially protects) government employees. Public employees in many ways are the forgotten stepchildren when it comes to many of the employment protections we in the private sector enjoy.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=gBWNk_ehZQ4

@Laura...just found a video!

And we LOVE our teachers!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You have me in tears! My mother and sister are teachers and I know how little they make and how much the support of their students would mean to them. It has been wonderful to watch Wisconsin rise up against this assault on hard-working and very real Americans - you're showing the rest of us what needs to be done and how to do it right.

As a Wisconsin native, it's this sort of thing that makes me proud to be one. The resolve, dedication and support for teachers and all workers in Wisconsin is very inspiring. Like the state motto says: FORWARD (not backward!).

My mom is a teacher in the Madison school district and I was fortunate enough to have spent every year of my elementary through high school education within the walls of MMSD schools and I couldn't be happier with the education I was given. While I was at West High School, around 9/11, we marched for Books Not Bombs so I couldn't be more proud that the students are still fighting the good fight and banded together with other local high schools, opponents on the fields and courts but, allies in the fight for an excellent education.

Gotta love Mad City - the Berkeley of the Midwest. Glad to see the progressive spirit is alive and well in one of my very favorite places on earth.

I work for the Railroad and am a member of the United Transportation Union. I would like to convey to the teachers, police, the firefighters and all of our Wisconsin brothers and sisters that we stand behind you 110%

This provides hope for the future. Thank you.

I am a member of UAW(retired) and I too stand with you. Unions stand for much more than wages, given the chance most unions willing work with managment in times of economic problems.

I see the ghost of Ronnie Raygun is still kicking around.

Uffdaguy: Don't you mean still kicking us around?

@Katy - you sure like to point the finger a lot. You know what they say about throwing rocks in glass houses...

First rule of the bully: always pick on the littlest kid.

What I find most remarkable isn't so much that this governor is targeting state workers and public-worker unions--they're a favorite scapegoat of right-wing pols--but his rhetoric about calling out the National Guard. He seems weirdly hot about the possibility of a violent confrontation. I'm strongly reminded of the various sorts of apocalypse porn consumed by the religious right in this country (virtual S&M for the sexually repressed). Is he, maybe, getting off on fantasizing about political violence (so he can be studly about putting it down, also violently)?

meddlingmonk: Those on the right in general seem to have an unnatural attachment to "punishing" non-rightists simply for not being right-wingers. Remember Limbaugh's "Don't kill all the liberals" line?

Monk, write the papers. We are in total agreement. Total, complete agreement.

Fortunately, in America, if he tries to use violent force against these peacefully protesting people like it sounds as if he's threatening to do, he will be tossed in the gaol so quickly it will make his tiny little head spin. Assuming that the citizens don't get to him first, tar and feather him, and then promptly run him out of the state. I mean, Wisconsin used to belong to the Old West. It could happen...

I think we can safely say that he can kiss all chances of a second term goodbye. Although, who knows. Brewer got elected again down in AZ despite everything, so I guess anything is possible.

You could be right that if he treats peaceful union members like Iran treats peaceful protesters that the people of Wisconsin may object, at least at the ballot box. On the other hand, sometimes people really love strong (meaning brutal) leaders. I would prefer it if this governor were only engaging in the political equivalent to wanking and nobody actually gets hurt.

CoraH: Don't be sure that he will suffer any meaningful consequences if he gets brutal. I think you underestimate the number of people who would love to see him do that and the number of people who would just wring their hands and whimper "But...but..but that isn't very civil."

Reports say that if the bill passes, recall petition drives are ready to go for Walker and every legislator that votes for it. By law, they have to wait until November to conduct the recall, but from what we have seen in the last 2 days, it could very well succeed. I also found it interesting that there was never really a need for this crisis. A report from WI government recently showed that had Walker not made tax cuts to the rich and corporations as soon as he came into office, there would be no deficit, and hence, no crisis. It has been completely manufactured. Surprise, surprise, a repub who lies and manipulates!

@Uffdaguy - do you have a link to that report? I would love to read that!

It was on The Ed Show on Wednesday night. I don't know if he has a link to that, (heck, I haven't even checked to see if he has a site). I do know that it was mentioned again today on Morning Joe, but the repub they were talking about wanted to talk more about the long-term deficit rather than the fact that the legislature and governor are meeting now ONLY to deal with the $130 million shortfall in the current budget. In other words, this "crisis" is nothing more than a pretense to do some union busting.

That's terrific, organized labor needs to stick together.

It was amazing to see the firefighters walking along with the other public servants...it was even more amazing when we realized some of them were our former students!

Seriously, Nathan - stop making me cry!

Nathan, any chance you can take a bunch of pictures of what you're seeing? I bet it's incredible witnessing what you're able to.

I will be going back at around 530-6, so I will try to do that

Even though Walker exempted police and firefighters from his bill, the firefighters are marching with us, and the police union has issued statements opposing the bill. Talking to the ones on duty at the rallies, it's not just an empty statement, either.

Thank you for sharing this insight. These are the kind of things that we need to know, as it is tough to get local insight like that when you are out of the media market.

http://www.freep.com/article/20110215/NEWS06/110215061/Gov-Rick-Snyder-plans-tax-pensions

THAT's what I want to know!!!

If this passes in Wisconsin you can bet every republican run state will follow suit, there are a bunch of them. I wonder if the people that voted for this change are having buyers remorse.

I imagine that many of the people who voted for GOP candidates last year are people who buy into the whole 'Public workers are the new Jews' thing (meaning, scapegoating public workers as the source of all our economic woes). Of course, there are also probably many who don't. Question is, which are more numerous?

We can file recall papers 60 days before Walker's first year in office is complete. During those 60 days, we need to collect roughly 550,000 signatures, plus enough to cover legal challenges.

Once this is done, the recall election can be set. I'm not sure how candidates file for that election, but I sure hope Russ Feingold will give it strong consideration.

If this passes in Wisconsin you can bet every republican run state will follow suit, there are a bunch of them. I wonder if the people that voted for this change are having buyers remorse.

Since the GOP now controls both houses in Indiana the same thing is happenig, Mitch Daniels has ruined this state in five short years!

I would be more than happy to help collect signatures when the time comes.

I'll join you, Minan!

How could you possibly say that? You must be a relative of the governor.

I'm proud of the citizens, NOT the governor, I apologize if I meant the other way around.

Just would like to throw something down, in the interest of tossing a Founding Father's reference back in the face of the crowd who so love to use them (usually incorrectly):

George Washington, first President of the United States, refused compensation for the office. Congress made him take compensation, but he didn't want to. Of course, he didn't want the job either, but did it because they essentially begged him to. On his way out, he cautioned America against political parties because they would tear apart the US. Bit of a prophet, George was.

I'm with you on this Roley--these governors who are so hot to cut state worker salaries should be first in line to take cuts as well.

What he said about the National Guard is being taken out of context. He only mentioned it as a worst case scenario, not acting like a thug (which is the way it is being spun). Not defending the guy, I am just a truth pursuer.

Why mention such a 'worst case scenario' in the first place? Why bother to put them on alert with no indication of unrest whatsoever? His intentions are quite clear and not taken out of context at all - he was hoping to bust the unions with no push-back, and he hoped to quell any picketing and walk-outs and marches with threats of National Guard intervention. These are age-old tactics.

The context, Bolbis, is the history of the state-supported violence against unions in our country. He meant it, alright, and he can't weasel out of it by pleading 'negative spin'.

That probably sounded more aggressive than I intended - I've been in a union during a nasty battle to keep basic benefits for hard-working, under-paid nurses and I'm a tad sensitive on the tactics that union-busters use. Sorry!

There is a tragedy in our state that occurred against rolling mill workers. The Wisconsin National Guard was brought out to bust the protest and 7 people were killed at what had been a peaceful protest until then. You cannot threaten the National Guard against unions in our state without bringing that tragedy into the discussion. It cannot and should never be used as a "what if" scenario.

Well, exactly...why would he speculate about a worst-case scenario? When was the last time there was any serious labor-related violence in this country actually instigated by labor? As I've sort of been saying above, I think the governor is publicly fantasizing about what he would like to see happen. Video of the National Guard crushing all those evil union nasties would look soooo good in presidential campaign ads, wouldn't they?

You obviously have no idea what it takes to be a teacher or what we sacrifice already...I have never heard anyone say that teachers don't do or want to do their "fair share". After all, we are responsible for preparing our kids for the work world, for preparing them for post-secondary education, for preparing them to be educated citizens, for making our society more competitive globally, for trying to close achievement gaps we see in students of color and students in poverty, for occasionally feeding them, for counseling them, for donating our time for extra-curricular activities, clubs, chaperoning dances, writing college recommendations, and just being there for kids. And we love doing it! And all of this in addition to our own family and personal obligations, the second jobs we often have to work, the coursework we are required to take, and the grading and prep we do outside of school. Imagine what your school house would look like if you couldn't attract the exceptional teachers Wisconsin has had. This bill that is being proposed would ensure that promising educators will go elsewhere and ensure that the schoolhouse you speak of will actually come to fruition. This is less about money and benefits, or sacrificing, but more about taking away the right to bargain and discuss the terms and conditions of employment at the table, in good faith, with the employer

Well, just to be clear there are some really good and dedicated teachers out there, but to hear the liberals talk, we are the most uneducated country in the world! So which is it?

I am all for paying good teachers well, but the problem with unions is that we don't have a way of separating out the good from the bad! Plus, at a time when the entire country is suffering, seems to me the unions could be less ruthless! But no.....

Plus many American workers don't have protection from a union. We go to work, try to do an exceptional job, and work our way up the chain through our proven performance.

I look at the players union (NFL), those guys are making megabucks and still want more! Most people in the rest of the world don't have pensions anymore, we are all at the mercy of social security (and we know where that is going). Did we not work as hard as you? Is our job less important than yours?

Teachers are entrusted with the lives of our children and I am all for making their jobs attractive, so that good ones stay, but at some point the bad apples are spoiling the whole bunch!

Actually Katy, if you bothered paying attention to the stories before spouting off about them, you would know that it's the NFL owners that are wanting more, and the players are saying 'enough'.

Unions are made up of people... hard-working people. Yes there is some corruption here and there to be sure, but no worse than the corruption in the halls of Congress and in the executive boardrooms. And unions fight for more than wages. They protect their workers from abuses, as you yourself just acknowledged. There are some bad apples, yes, but they are most certainly not 'spoiling the whole bunch'. So stop demonizing all unions, they're not all the same.

Arthur...: I realized years ago that ideologues like her genuinely do not want working people to receive a living wage.

This whole situation is another example of what the right considers to be sacrifice. When times are tough, they say we need to cut social services, cut social security, medicare, medicaid, education, destroy unions. We have to "sacrifice" after all. But when the same call to "sacrifice" goes out to the rich, in the form of higher taxes on their luxuries, on the elimination of corporate welfare, suddenly that is "socialist", "communist", "anti-American". You see, sacrifice is a word only for the middle and lower class. Don't you DARE ask the rich and the corporations for even the tiniest sacrifice. They remind me of the generals in a WWI battle, ordering their troops to make suicidal charges across no mans land, demanding the sacrifice of their blood, while the generals sit in a commandeered chateau sampling the finest French wines.

To further elaborate on what Walker said about the National Guard, here is the exact text from what he said (good old Politifact did the hard work on this one).

"In state government, we have had, before I’ve taken office, plans for contingencies no matter what the circumstances. We have updated those," Walker said. "I got a full briefing from all the major, level-one state agencies as well as the
the National Guard yesterday (Feb. 10). We are fully prepared and equipped to handle whatever may occur. So we have every confidence we can move forward on that.

"But again, you plan for the worst, you expect the best. And I expect from the good men and women who work for state and local government that they’re going to continue to do the good, professional job they do each and every day."

Not as bad as everyone is making it out to be. Once again, I don't agree with him, but we should focus on the substance of what he is trying to do rather than distract ourselves with spinning something that he said.

I don't know about it not being that bad. Yes, he's not promising to bathe in the blood of his enemies if he doesn't get his way; but he is doing everything he can to create the impression of immanent violence while trying to keep people from noticing that he's the only one raising the specter of violence is he himself.

I agree, it really is as bad as we have been saying. He is making a veiled threat against the teachers in specific, and the protestors in general. There was absolutely no need to ever bring up the National Guard in this situation other than as an attempt to intimidate the opposition. If this goes on, we'll see if Walker has the stones to call out the National Guard to break up the protests, because no matter how much he spins it, it will definitely end his political career, probably with a recall in November. And if he does call them out, how willing will the troops be to act against fellow Wisconsin citizens? I see this as an implied threat, but if Walker has even a couple functioning brain cells, he has to be regretting he ever tried to play macho man on this issue, and fervently hoping no one calls his bluff, because he will ultimately end up the big loser, (excuse me, end up as an even bigger loser than he already is).

I would like to think that the Wisconsin National Guard would not fire on or otherwise inflict violence on the protesters. But in the background of my thoughts are the words 'Kent State' on a continuous loop. And the really sick thing is, if things did end up like that then there would be people and a big chunk of the media universe who would be quick to lionize Walker and vilify the victims. My preferred outcome, actually, is that the AWOL Democratic legislators are hauled back passively resisting. The imagery of their deliberately limp bodies being dragged into the chamber by state police would politically murder Walker just as efficiently and nobody would get hurt or killed.

You cannot "outsource" teachers, nurses or child-care workers. Otherwise he probably would.

How does the state that elected Russ Feingold also elect Walker?!? Senator Feingold is the BEST!

The same way that the state that elects Barbara Boxer, etc. elects Arnold and Reagan.

Minnesota's got Al Franken and Michelle Bachman.

First off, Thank you for standing with us! True, concessions must be made, can and will. Walker refused to sit at the table with any union leader before introduction of the bill. Protest is not for the greed of money or benefit but the basic and given right we possess as humans. Article 23.4, established by the UN so many years ago in the Declaration of Human Rights.

This bill starts out with a declaration to de-unionize, plus it goes so much deeper. With hidden items like the transfer of power from the legislative to executive branch in changing the state medicare laws... where then is the public oversight? I look Forward December 31st and 540,000 signatures, unless impeachment be found suited, before. Good luck to US ALL and One!

MetalPhil

That's the problem voters all over the country weren't thinking. They were reacting and voting in a state of anger. Voting in anger is lkie driving in anger. Not a good idea.

PM, I believe every state publishes a Comprehensive Annual Financial Report (CAFR) - equivalent to a company's financial statements - which you can find online (though some are harder to find than others).

Here's a couple of links to Wisconsin financial info:

http://www.doa.state.wi.us/debf/pdf_files/bib.pdf

http://www.wisconsin.gov/state/core/gov_financial_disclosure.html

The Wisconsin CAFR link seems to be broken. But based on what I read in the budget summary, Wisconsin state revenues are from individual & corporate income taxes, sales taxes, various other taxes, fees, and lottery ticket sales, along with grants and other funds from the federal government.

Thanks, Mightbe!

Ah, my accounting degree comes in handy now and then.