Anti-abortion activists showed up Tuesday night at the home of Dr. Mila Means, a family practitioner who'd like to offer abortion services in Wichita, Kansas. Dr. Means would be the first open provider in Wichita since the last one, Dr. George Tiller, was murdered in 2009. She had talked to us on the show the night before.
As we reported Wednesday, the protesters turned up at Dr. Means' house without much attempt to deliver their message to anyone but her. "She is killing babies right now in Ks. City, and plans to kill in Wichita," protest leader Rob Rotola e-mailed us later. "We will notify her neighbors and all who do business with her."
Theirs is a clear attempt to intimidate any would-be abortion providers away. Pro-choice supporters have also worried about intimidation elsewhere this week, in South Dakota, where a bill would have expanded "justifiable homicide" to include the defense of an "unborn child."
The sponsor of that South Dakota bill said he was talking about violent assaults, not legal abortions. But pro-choice groups saw in it the potential for violence against abortion doctors, and so did the anti-abortion side. The bill has now been shelved, perhaps until its language can be made more clear.
Whatever its literal meaning, the bill carried a clear message for Operation Rescue's Troy Newman, which hounded Dr. Tiller in the months before his murder and whose website for a time included Dr. Means' home address in its comments. The New York Times reports that Newman "said he was 'shocked' when he read the bill, which he worried could encourage violence. 'The pro-life movement, by definition, is in favor of protecting human life from the moment of conception to natural death, and we reject all forms of violence,' he said."
The Times also talked to Dave Leach, who testified as a character witness on behalf of the man who killed Dr. Tiller. From the NYT:
[Dave Leach] praised the bill, saying it could end abortions in South Dakota by scaring away doctors or by establishing grounds for someone to kill those who stay.
"There may be something I'm overlooking, but from all appearances, this bill would certainly justify an individual taking the life of an abortionist in order to save human lives," he said.
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Wow. Anti-choice is becoming better at secretly organizing their terror thugs. Was the secrecy meant to protect any journalists from harm who may have otherwise shown up?
I wonder how many body guards our constitution is gonna need...
Why don't these anti abortion terrorists just put on a KKK hood and gown and call it what it is. This type of intimidation (and murder) was the same that the KKK used to "intimidate" the black population 50 years ago. Don't we have laws to protect doctors from doing what is legal in this country? It appears that this is not being reported on enough, and the law is not stopping this from occuring as well, and by doing so is giving these groups power to do as they please. We don't arrest terrorists? Troy Newman should be arrested as a terrorist, as well as the terrorists that showed up at the doctors' house. We arrest stalkers! Just because they are citizens doesn't mean they aren't terrorists, and they should be arrested as such! (including South Dakota!) This doctor has a right to practice what is legal in this country without fear of terrorists stalking her and invading her practice, her home, family and her privacy. Abortion was legalized. This is the United States of America, isn't it?
I live about 50 miles away from Wichita, the anti-abortion nuts abound there. I am pretty sure they do don KKK bedsheets on the weekends.
"Why don't these anti abortion terrorists just put on a KKK hood and gown and call it what it is.
Why do that when they can wear a surgical mask and wield a scalpel? That would seem to be the appropriate garb wouldn't it?
Because not all doctors perform abortions, but if you see people running around wearing sheets they probably aren't ghosts.
And lest ye forget, abortion is a legal voluntary procedure in this country and no amount of righteous indignation will change that.
Rachel, I wish when you speak the word abortion on your show, or whenever, you would always use the phrase, "SAFE AND LEGAL ABORTION", instead of just the word - abortion. After all, abortion has always existed in the domain of women and always will, but it is the safe and legal abortion rights that we are fighting to keep these days.
Thank you so much for your wise words.
"Safer" is an argument for "legal". In that sense, "SAFE AND LEGAL ABORTION" is more of a campaign slogan than the name of a procedure. Which is why she'll never make a habit of saying it.
I know you mean well, but in my opinion she's too smart to squander her significant influence that way. Rachel reports, readers do the fighting.
Jcomment: I think "legal" is an argument for "safer" and should be just the facts ma'am not a slogan...just sayin'
Domestic terrorist is "the unlawful use of force or violence, committed by a group(s) of two or more individuals, against persons or property to intimidate or coerce a government, the civilian population, or any segment thereof, in furtherance of political or social objectives."
That is what these people are doing.
Amen. And if some legal force was applied to these groups because of their domestic terrorism I wager you would see less people - like the young lady in the photo - out on these picket lines.
THANK FREAKING YOU! They are terrorists- if you believe abortion is wrong that is one thing, but what you are doing by attacking abortion clinics IS TERRORISM. GO HANG OUT WITH OSAMA BIN LADEN IF YOU CAN'T RESPECT US LAW ANY MORE THAN HE CAN. YOU ARE NO DIFFERENT THAN HE IS. NOT HAPPY WITH ME SAYING THAT? THEN CHANGE YOUR BEHAVIOR!
Oh please. Since when is calling a thing what it is "intimidation". Now one is getting hurt, all they're doing is exercising their free speech rights. Besides, I find it beyond ironic that anyone on the "choice" side (what a spin that term is...) would be afraid of old ladies carrying placards, when we've lost approx 45 million innocent souls over the past 38 years.
Can we agree to do everything we can to reduce abortion? Which none are truely "safe", however legal they might be at the moment?
MUOhio, I don't know about you, but if a group of people (not just old ladies with placards) showed up and stood outside my home, calling me murderer that takes blood money, I'd be pretty terrified. Just because they aren't using fists or weapons (yet) doesn't mean that there is no harm. They know what they are doing. They are not attempting to prove a point, or change hearts and minds. They are trying to scare the doctor into not setting up her clinic in Wichita. Their behaviour is absolutely disgusting and if Ms. Means were any other citizen in Wichita their actions would be considered deplorable, not to mention criminal.
Harassing doctors doesn't reduce the abortion rate. Women who need abortions will find a way to obtain them, regardless of how many placards anti-choicers wave around. Abortion is absolutely safe, especially in comparison to pregnancy and childbirth. Granted, no medical procedure is 100% risk-free, but abortion is extremely safe as far as medical procedures go.
Nonsense! MUOhio is perfectly correct: "Calling something what it is does is not intimidation." Those pro-life protesters have every right to try to persuade abortionist Means to choose another line of work. Perhaps what Means claims to be fear is her apprehension that, if she honestly admitted what she is doing, she'd be overwhelmed by guilt for having killed so many babies over her years of practice.
So you believe it's the woman's fault, not the man's?
Ms. Means is not a killer, and has not killed any babies. She is an abortion provider, and she terminates pregnancies. Showing up at her home and calling her a murderer is not "calling what it is", it is threatening Ms. Means in her personal space for doing something that is perfectly safe, legal, and necessary. Again, I don't know about you, but if a group of people showed up at my home with nasty signs and comments, I wouldn't listen to a damn word they had to say. I would be on the phone to the police, as far away from them as possible. They aren't there to persuade Ms. Means to stop providing abortions. They are there to scare her, and to make sure that she is so ostracized by the community that she won't want to stay there. It's disgusting.
MU Ohio is porbably one of those terrorists and shows the spiritual ignorance of the whole movement. Souls belong to God and what belongs to Him is never lost. The only thing lost are the clay vessels that would ahve carried those souls this time. God can always choose to allow them to come into a clay vessel where they are wanted, needed and will be cared for and loved as He would like all of His souls to be. But then, that involves choice doesn't it? And Hell knows the right wing doesn't want anyone to have a choice about anything. Someone make choose differently than they would.
Sorry for the spelling errors. They make me so angry. They are lined up nicely; someone should use a second amendment solution on them.
I wonder if any of the above who are so convinced of the harmless expression of free speech this tactic is would like to provide us with their occupations and then their addresses. If it's harmless y'all shouldn't mind me and my really angry friends camping out in your front yard and screaming over your backyard fence. I'm sure your neighbors would find snaking through the fuming crowds on the way to their own driveways to be completely safe. Your pretty free to give away someone else's right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness, why not put your money where your mouths are and give us your addresses? I believe your opinions are ugly, misogynistic and unamerican. I also think they are immoral and against God's will. Can me and my really angry friends take over your neighborhood to make sure you know?
Shebow: I wish you could!
... I'm pretty much in love with your comment right now, Shebow. You said everything that I wanted to say, but couldn't find the words.
I'm going to guess that Cheryl Sellenger and her husband in Wichita and Troy Newman, his wife, Mellissa, and their five children would all welcome us on their beautiful ranch in rural Kansas. ;^))
And while I can pontificate about the turn about is fair play kind of justice I mentioned above, if I think about it, not only could I never do such a thing to another human being, I can't even find it a truly good idea. For me, it's not only the question of who thinks terrorizing families and neighborhoods is a good way to win hearts and minds, but who (shudder) are the people who are won over by this kind of tactic.
Thank you Cathie for the prefect reminder!!
She can't use that phrase because abortion is not always safe. Women do die from it. As with any surgery, there are risks.
Abortion is actually among the safest of outpatient surgery procedures. Women are far less likely to die from a legal abortion than from pregnancy or childbirth.
Shari...just imagine, if you can for a moment, how "safe" the procedure would be if it were illegal and performed in a back alley or over a garage somewhere? How safe the procedures are will become a far greater issue if the law were to change back.
Today the procedure is not a risky one...I hope for that status to remain the same because that procedure will continue as long as women are able to become pregnant.
Yes some women will die from abortion that is legal...the percentage is far less than those whom die from illegal abortions. What is your point???
What are you talking about, Mickey? There have been no illegal abortions since Roe v Wade? Every attempt to make some (such as "late term") abortions illegal has lost in the Supreme Court. And there's so much wiggle room in the legal conditions supposedly forbidding some abortions, it's almost impossible for any abortion to be prosecuted as illegal.
There haven't? Now you're showing your ignorance. You're not only saying you don't know why they were illegalized before hand, you don't know why they stay illegal. Hmm good to know. MM or Covah wanna take this? I got to go back to work? Love ya guys!
If I'm the "MM" referred to above, then this is a little out of my field. But if I had to comment (even though I don't really) I would have to suppose that in abortions as in anything there is an underworld counterpart to the nice and legal surface. For example, while there are plenty of lawful auto-repair businesses, there are also those who use parts from stolen cars; and this is happening in a business where there is no terrorist campaign and allied political movement directed against it. Nevertheless, any business or customer willing to cut corners encourages illicit manifestations in an otherwise legal enterprise. And if what is legal is under attack and getting harder and harder to obtain, then the shady manifestation of it is logically going to become a bigger deal.
Like I said, this is not exactly my subject, but I think the above is more or less what Mickey was getting at.
also, if we widen our lens to look at countries where abortion is still largely illegal - women still get them, but they are often performed in unsterile conditions, which makes them unsafe. and, as rachel's coverage of what's going on in KS illustrates, just b/c abortion is legal here, doesn't mean it is accessible, especially later-term abortions. women often have to travel well outside their home towns as there are so few doctors who will perform them, and that can make the cost unaffordable, which can lead women to places like kermit gosnells. more restrictions on abortion only means that they WILL become more dangerous again.
As I had said elsewhere... restricting or eliminating safe legal abortions does nothing to make the demand for it go away. Not even terorizing or murdering the doctors that perform them. All you are doing is creating a market for dangerous illegal abortions that are as likely not to kill or sterilize the women who resort to using them.
If these people are so anti-abortion does that mean that they are pro-adoption? If so, how many kids do they have? Why are they not forming lines to adopt unwanted babies?
They put all their effort and money into protecting the unborn. After a birth is achieved they don't give a damn about the welfare of the child.
It is estimated that about 2000 children die each year from abuse and neglect. Do these supposed 'pro-lifers' do anything to support these lives.
That's just far to logical for these people. It seems the WWJD fad has faded. Its now WWHD (what would Hamas do?)
Here in Oklahoma, we are very anti-abortion state...as well as anti-public education and anti-union...we are among the top five states for child abuse and child deaths at the hands of their caretakers. We also are big on defunding the Dept of Human Services. Couple that with the fact that we have highest number of women in prison in the nation, we have among the highest number of children in the care of the state.
Yea, let's ask each and every one of those protesters..."How many of your children are adopted? " If the answer is anything less than "all of them" they are fakes. Only those who would practice adoption rather than procreate on their own, should be even thinking about challenging a woman's right to choose.
If you have the means to bring a child into the world, you have the means to adopt - wait, what's that? OH! You wanted a white, non-addicted, healthy child? Sorry, YOU DON'T GET TO CHOOSE!
we're slowly becoming our own terrorist state - against one another. And the sad thing is it's being encouraged and sold as "nationalism" from BS politicians & networks.
Amen, Ashley
All this in the face of a swelling human population.
What "swelling human population?" The birth rate in the US are slightly BELOW what would be needed to maintain a constant population, and the US rate is higher than in most of the countries of Europe. Check world population projections on the internet for more complete info.
Why not men's balls Pro-Life?? Men need to be vasectomized before unwanted pregnancies will ever stop in our society. I am pro-vasectomy. Who is with me? If you are pro-vasectomy please share as much to this post. Thank you
Why not make male contraception implants mandatory unless they are getting married and can pass a mental health/personality test? Men are alot more likely to be promiscuious anyhow. There are always twenty year olds knocking up 14 year olds. Fix that and whole swaths of social services will no longer be needed, saving the tax-payer's dime.
And if you are worried about Americans not reproducing at a high enough rate pro, then at least have the cajones to discuss your real fear. It is WHITE people not reproducing fast enough...therein lies the racist fear at the heart of the pro-life argument. The fact is that rather than being the Nazi-era vermin caricature, immigrants from our southern border are our nation's saviors. Today's illegal immigrant is tomorrow's tax payer who will provide what little hope there is of retirement for us. Just my own opinion, but the browning of America can't happen quick enough. The only real danger is that wealth and power remain ever more concentrated into fewer and fewer white hands...turning America into aparthied South Africa. That's worth taking up arms to prevent.
While I can admire anyone who has the passion to stand up and speak out for what they believe in and take action. I also look at those who take to violence to achieve their goals with great disdain.
You are terrorist and should be treated as such! You are religious extremest who seek to destroy others who think differently than you. You are the same who look down their noses of the tension in the Middle East and you call them savages. You need to take a look in the mirror.
Rather than establish an out reach for women who are left to feel they need an abortion you'd rather plot murder. I guess REALLY trying to do something is just to hard to do. It seems you'd rather take the easy way.
I suppose it is easier and certainly cheaper to stand on the curb with a sign than to perhaps reach out to women in crisis and tell them YOU will adopt their child if they will not abort it? Nah...being a terrorist is much easier and much more cost efficient for you.
Other than your lacking in pyrotechnics and explosives...I am sure you are making other groups who support terror proud.
If a woman makes the choice that the distress of abortion would be worse to her than the lifelong grief of giving a child away, then she should have the right to do that, of course, but adoption should not be thrown around so glibly. It certainly should not be either socially or legally forced upon a woman. She should not be forced to bear a child, with all the responsibilities and duties which will last for the rest of her life.
Thank you for this comment. Having been raped, persuaded by my ultra-christian parents to keep the child (they said that they would like to adopt it if I didn't want to raise it), and chose to give the child up for adoption I would like to say to anyone who thinks adoption is an easy choice that it really isn't.
Giving birth, destroying your body, and knowing that you are responsible for bringing a life into the world is not a laughing matter. It can be emotionally devistating and I would encourage all individuals who encourage adoption over abortion to think twice before they do so. Adoption is often more emotionally devistating than abortion.
two very selfish posts.
".....Adoption is often more emotionally devistating than abortion....."
and
"....dealing with the responsibilities and duties which will last for the rest of her life".
and the alternative,......is a dead baby, can't get much worse for the baby.
Wow. This is what the comments section has degenerated into? Slut/victim-shaming? I give up.
Talk to us when you are a kid carrying a baby and have had to face that choice guy.
It's not a baby until it can live outside the womb. Until then it's a fetus that's entirely dependant upon the mother's body for support. It's a part of her until it can live on it's own. Ergo, it's under the mother's absolute control and it isn't my place or yours to tell them what to do with their bodies.
Funny that pro-lifers want every single fertilized egg to be carried to full term, but don't want to take responsibility pay for pre-natal care, adoption or much anything else after the fetus becomes a baby.
Pro-life for fetuses only! The rest of you scum are on your own. :/
Yeah, and now they want to reduce WIC payments and kick people off Welfare and of course there is NO DAYCARE FOR YOU!
Oh yeah, let's not forget that they want to make it really, really expensive to buy health insurance as well...so, good luck with the hospital bills.
Good thing they represent us and not the lobbyists.
I am always amazed at females attempting to take away the rights of thier sisters, it could very well be thier rights the next time. As the old saying goes "divide and conquer". Women have fought long and hard for the rights we"ve gained thru long years of fighting and could easily be taken away thru legislation with these types(terrorist) in charge. I have always thought if you don't approve no one is forcing you, no one should force others to abide by thier values, I believe this is more about control than morals or values.
"........there are risks".
Especially to the unborn child or fetus.
Abortion is the only surgery that purposely kills.
I don't understand how a society can have laws that protect unborn children from violent crimes, but can still allow abortion.
I understand that sometimes abortion has to be available, but our society has devalued life so much, that abortion is nothing more then a method of contraceptive more many women.
We are becoming os desensitized to death and violence. How many recall when Dr. Jack Korvorcian (sp?) performed his first killing/euthanasia. The country was outraged...now in some states, it is legal. We as a society are on a slippery slope...and we are picking up speed, and at the bottom of the hill is a huge brick wall.
Being an individual who is terminally ill, I am glad that many have decided that dying with dignity is a right people should posess. I know there will be no medical miracles for me... and am OK with that. I think we should all respect individual rights to do what each choses to with one's own body... I don't think euthanasia or abortion is murder. But then again that is simply my opinon.
Mermaid,
I respect your opinion, and please except my sympathies in regards to your illness.
I wil just say that I am more excepting of Euthanasia "rights", as the decision to end a life is decided by the the persons who's life is to end. A unborn baby is does not have that luxury. That is my opinion. :-)
How can you say abortion is not murder, but if a unborn baby is killed in a act of violence, it is (at least in the eyes of the law)? I don't understand how you, or others can differentiate the two.
I guess we are just on opposite sides.
Take care and may your last days be as peaceful as possible....and may you find comfort, and happiness on the other side, what ever that other side may be, as i have no clue. I do hope there is a better place.
Society should value pregnancy. That is why I call on all men who have sex outside of a union in which they want to sire children to have vasectomies. It is only when men decide to take responsibility for their sperm that babies will stop being born. Men should make sure that spermicide is available to the woman or that the woman has some sort of protection. Men should also make sure that they are vasectomized in order to have the MOST POSSIBLE INSURANCE of avoiding pregnancy. Any man who comes inside of a woman who did not have a vasectomy should be stuck with the child, since it is his fault for creating the child.
the doc should go to a fish store, fill a garbage bag w chum (its free), let it rot in the sun for a day, then spread it along the sidewalk. nobody could stomach the stench. BTW - i successfully used rotting chum to run-off drug dealers from in front of a rental property. works like a (stinking) charm.
Rotten shrimp and squid smell even worse. :-)
Sad to say, but I cannot figure out how I feel about this particular subject. I used to be Pro-Life and then I used to be Pro-Choice; now I don't know what I am. I was involved in an automobile accident back in 1986 in which I was 6 months pregnant; I lost my little girl as a direct result of a drunk driver. The Sate of Kansas persued Vehicular Homicide charges against the drunk driver on behalf of my daughter, Krista Marie. However, in Kansas, a "fetus" (although proven to be viable) is not considered a "Person" or "Human Being" unless the fetus has taken at least one breath outside of the mothers womb. You can read the court findings at: (I am formerly Patricia Brixius).
When I read in your article above, "Theirs is a clear attempt to intimidate any would-be abortion providers away. It's the kind of thing that pro-choice supporters have worried about elsewhere this week, in South Dakota, where a bill would have expanded "justifiable homicide" to include the defense of an "unborn child.", it bothered me a great deal because a part of me understands the rage that is created in a person when someone violates your life and you loose a child over it. However, you would think that I; especally after losing a child, would be pro-life, which I am for myself, but I could never make that decision for someone else.
I think that what Dr. Means in doing as far as providing (or wanting to provide) abortion services here in Kansas (sadly yes I live in Kansas), then she should be allowed to do so, without harassment or intimidation, but as it goes with any State, there is freedom of speech and the right to gather peacefully in the USA. Unfortunately she is going to have opposition and face the same problems at her office that Dr. Tiller faced. I think killing an abortion doctor (in defense of the unborn child) is insanity at it's finest; it's kind of stupid to be Pro-life and then turn around and kill someone because they perform abortions.
On the other hand, when a person is violated and forced to have that unborn child taken away from them, I do believe the unborn child should be protected; which obviously in my case did not happen. A person has a right to assume when they are pregnant (and want to keep their child), that they will go full term; to have someone terminate that? To me is deserving of Capital Punishment.
I still get mad when I think of Pro-life and Pro-choice demonstrators in Wichita, because quite frankly they are part of the reason the Judge would not allow for that drunk driver to be charged with vehicular homicide (my case was a huge ordeal here).
Rachel, you want to know what is really sad about all of this? Is that I am a Christian. Most Christians are pro-life, which like I said I am as well, myself, my family, my household! If Christians would wake up and realize 'we' as Christians cannot force our belief system onto others that are not a part of 'our family'; and that our rules/laws or standards do NOT apply to those who are not a follower of Christ, and we have no busibness trying to force someone to live by 'our' laws. The Bible is very clear that we are to follow the laws of the land; and why pro-life people (who are mostly Christians) cannot seem to understand that is beyond me.
But then, who am I? I'm one person and one small voice drowned out by the hipocracy and lunicy that seems to run wild in this state
Anyway, thanks for reading my ramblings. I look forward to your show being broadcast from Wichita. I would love to come see you in person but I don't know if you are going to be broadcasting from a public forum or not. Good luck and thanks for making me think about this and trying to protect the rights of others.
Patti E.
I am so sorry for the loss of your little girl, Patti E. I cannot imagine what you must have gone through and still must be feeling. My heart hurts for you.
Although I have not had the misfortune of experiencing what you have, I too am conflicted on this very thing. If someone had done something to my son in utero, I would want that person brought to justice for the crime against my son. When it's YOUR baby, it's not a fetus.
On the other side, I am pro-choice. I would never make the choice to terminate a healthy pregnancy, but the resources, family, and friends available to me to support me in this decision may not be available to someone else. I can't force what I believe onto someone else or their situation.
I think like most great issues, there isn't a cut and dry answer. My wish is that we don't eliminate access to safe and legal abortions for those who need them, but eliminate the NEED for them. Raise our children with respect for others so they don't abuse or rape. Find cures for diseases so a father doesn't have to chose between preserving the life of his wife and protecting that of his child. The list could go on and on.
Just wanted to let you know that you're not the only one who thinks the lunatics have taken over the asylum.
You both make valid points, if you choose to go to term that is your choice, should one choose to terminate, that too is thier choice. All people make choices on what is best for thier circumstances and should be allowed to do just that without interference from others. To bad the lunatics don't think like rational people.
Legalize the murder of medical doctors? Is this America any more?
It's not be America for a very long time.
Wow, that's great that TRMS is headed to Wichita. Never understood how people believe that just because Barack Obama's father was born in Western Kenya, therefore he was born in Kenya yet his mother was born in Wichita and nobody believe Barack Obama was born in Kansas.
If you are looking around for the birthplace of the President's mother, it's the old St. Francis Hospital in Wichita. Wichita Public Library has a birth notice for her from 1942 in the Wichita Beacon. The President's maternal grandfather, Stanley Armour Dunham, was born in a house in 200 block of N. Charles St. I forget the exact address, but newscaster Susan Peters of KAKE-TV did a very extensive reporting on the President's roots in Southcentral Kansas.
Actually if you are looking for somewhere to film, try 1201 W. Douglas Ave in Wichita. Not only is it an open space currently looking for renters, way back when it was a Gem Pharmacy which was run by Jacob William Dunham and his wife, Mary Ann (Kearney) Dunham. They are the great-great grandparents of the President and we laid to rest in Wichita Park Cemetery. Their son, Ralph Waldo Emerson Dunham, is the president's great-grandfather and his remains are at Resthaven Cemetery.
Granted this is about women's rights and not a trip down the family tree of Barack Obama, but still interesting. If you were doing this story about women's right in Alego, Kenya, sure you'd stop by the sites connected to the President's father, so why not his White American mother?
When does this become conspiracy to commit murder? These people including the lawmakers should be arrested and charged with any number of things and the federal government should do it. This is a federal law and it is being broken. How dare these crazy people be allowed to intimidate anyone. I think the RICO act applies. They are a mob of people conspiring to break federal laws, including murder.
I'm puzzled by the "Anti-choice movement targets another doctor" video. As I understand it, three abortionists have been killed in Kansas in more than twenty years, and, during that time, those three killed a few thousand babies -- and possibly a few women patients who went to those abortionist to have their babies killed. It's a shame that the interviewed abortionist feels threatened if she continues killing babies. However, if that fear stops her from killing even more babies, I'm glad she's afraid.
If property owners also decide it's unprofitable to rent facilities to abortionists, that's wonderful too. It's perfectly reasonable to boycott ANY business which facilitates abortion. The fact that an activity is legal doesn't obligate anybody or any business to provide the means to carry out that activity.
Since Roe v Wade effectively legalized abortion throughout the US, something like 40 MILLION babies have been murdered and perhaps a dozen abortionists. The killing seems pretty one-sided to me.
In her interview of Abortionist Mila Means, Maddow asks Means about her difficulties "practicing medicine" because of her being targeted. Other than killing babies, what medical activities does Means perform? Means didn't cite a single other medical activity, even one as insignificant as providing an aspirin to a patient with a headache.
I'm also puzzled about why Means objects to having the address of her "clinic" published. If the women wanting Means to kill their babies don't know where Means office is, what are they supposed to do? Drive around the area until they see a sign "Babies murdered here"? She should be grateful for the free advertising.
You "choice" fans might also want to consider this: "A West Philadelphia, PA, abortion doctor, his wife and eight other suspects are now under arrest following a grand jury investigation. Dr. Kermit Gosnell, 69, faces eight counts of murder in the deaths of a woman following a botched abortion at his office, along with the deaths of seven other babies who, prosecutors allege, were born alive following illegal late-term abortions and then were killed by severing their spinal cords with a pair of scissors."
i don't understand your point, the rest of us is talking about SAFE AND LEGAL ABORTION and you bring up someone killing babies in an awful way and performing illegal abortions?
Pro...here is something you clearly don't get. The more that safe and legal abortion is placed outside of the reach of woman that need it, the more more Gosnells they create. It doesn't matter whether or not YOU think it is wrong and it doesn't matter how many abortion providers are threatened or killed...the demand for abortion remains. And if it isn't filled by safe and legal abortion providers, then it will be filled by dangerous and criminal abortion providers. Pick your evil.
Pro-life: Dr. Kermit Gosnell would be a criminal if he is convicted and not a doctor of choice for any procedure. If true it's sad women went to him. No "choice fans" as you put it, should consider criminals when seeking help.
I'm not getting into the whole "when life begins" deal with you. You have the right to choose how you feel...it's just most here won't agree with you and the debate will probably not yield enlightening of the masses.
So Pro: Where do you stand on the Death Penalty?
@Pro...Death --- The fastest and easiest way to decrease the amount of abortions has always been and always will be to have all males over the age of 18 receive a vasectomy. This bypasses the fetus issue that Anti-Choice groups bring up as their reasoning. Unless Anti-Choice groups now consider sperm being alive. Vasectomies are simple procedures and can be reversed. If males are worried about having children in the future, then their sperm can be frozen and doled out at the time the male wants to have children.
/end sarcasm
Pro, this has nothing to do with a "tally". You think it's okay that Tiller was killed, and that other providers are harassed, their families are targeted, their neighbors are hounded? All providers know what they do is controversial... if you have a problem with abortion, that's your right, but to put people in harm's way because you don't like it is NOT the way to voice an opinion. You do not know every circumstance in which an abortion was done. I personally would never get one, but it's not my place to tell another woman what she must decide in what could be a very difficult situation. Women will get abortions, no matter what the law says. What happened in Philly is horrific and will happen more often if abortions are made more difficult for women to have access to.
Cas: I think you are on to something. Actually- the human race could survive with fewer males than females and the gene pool would be just fine. Keep a few good ones with the gene traits necessary for strength and smarts and get rid of the addictive genes. Use these sperm as the procreative sperm and reproduce on an as needed basis to keep the population in check and the economy flowing. A good balance of older and younger people...and only births that were wanted...hmmm.
Pro you want legal abortion abolished and millions more born into a world that can not sustain itself even with the population we now have and getting worse. When water and food become sarce as it is is many countries, will you be the first to buy and hoard supplies? For those who have no food or water and need your help with life giving supplies, will you share or shoot?
If life doesn't begin with conception (which is the standard biological definition), precisely when does it begin? I expect most mothers wouldn't agree that their affection for their baby begins at birth. Many might consider their baby alive and a real person from the time of its quickening, the moment during pregnancy when the baby is first felt to move. As quickening occurs between 16 and 20 weeks of gestation, would Abortionist Means refrain from killing a baby after quickening? Or would she, as Planned Parenthood has been repeatedly shown to do, fiddle with the dates and even lie to their pregnant customers to circumvent the legal restrictions.
If you'd seriously check on the consequences of abortion to the mother, you'd find that SAFE abortions aren't all that easy to provide. As pregnancy followed by birth is a natural process, you'd discover that interfering with that process involves risks to the participants. A hundred-odd years ago, mothers commonly died in childbirth. Such deaths are now uncommon, but they still happen. Presently, far more mothers die attempting to prevent childbirth than die from allowing their child to be born.
See the play "Our Town" by Thornton Wilder for a moving dramatization of how common death in childbirth or early life used to be.
uggh...Pro...you are a man aren't you?
Maggie: I'm sure he's male, but that's as far as it goes for him!
Pro-life-Anti-Death: simple but accurate summary of first comment (#18): "If terrorism can achieve my goals, then I'm all in favor of it... yay!"
Pro-life-Anti-Death: simple but accurate correction of second comment (#18.9): "A far higher percentage of pregnant women a hundred-odd years ago died in childbirth than the percentage of pregnant women who now die attempting to prevent childbirth."
As for "Dr." Gosnell's house of horrors here in my hometown, several of the other commenters in this thread were right on target. Don Quixokie, as usual, put it quite well: "The more that safe and legal abortion is placed outside of the reach of woman (sic) that need it, the more more Gosnells they create." The women (and their fetuses/babies) who were victimized there were all poor, they were poorly served by the health-care insurance industry, and were thus unable to pursue better quality services that were available elsewhere.
Furthermore, it's worth noting that inspections of reproductive-health providers in Pennsyltucky (as I often find myself referring to our Commonwealth) were ended nearly two decades ago, by the ostensibly pro-choice Rape-Public-CON Governor, Tom Ridge, who later brought all of us those nifty color-coded "terror alerts" (interestingly, other types of medical clinics in PA were and are still subject to inspection and regulation). The inspections of reproductive-health clinics were only recently reinstated by our Democratic now former Governor, Ed Rendell...
There are more fact and research based numbers here: http://www.alanguttmacher.org/pubs/ib_0599.html
Check out the legality and safety section especially. This The Rachel Maddow Show Blog, Pro. You're gonna have to do better than backing up your arguments by citing movies over 50 years old or plays over 70 years old.
So why aren't you advocating that men be responsible for their sperm? Men have more control over where they ejaculate than women. Why aren't you bitching about the hundreds of thousands of men who force women into sex against their will? Why aren't you bitching about the culture that makes women feel like they have to have sex all the time (out of and within wedlock) even if they know they cannot sire a child (or another child)? Why do you encourage men who cannot afford another child to have sex, but then get mad at women who don't reject sex? Why don't you have consistency in your beliefs????
I think one thing needs to be really clear in this debate: abortion is NOT about killing babies. Abortion providers do not "murder" babies/children/whatever term evokes the most emotion that can be used for political gain. Abortion is about terminating unwanted or non-viable pregnancies. Abortion providers assist women in ending their unwanted/non-viable pregnancies. This distinction is very important to make, because when we allow people like Pro-Life Anti-Death to frame a discussion about abortion as "killing babies", we allow him to cover up the truth about what abortion really does. it secures women's bodily autonomy. It allows women to control the number of children they have so that they can ensure the children they do have are healthy and well cared for. It allows doctors and other health care providers the ability to preserve their patient's health without worrying if it might cost them their job. It allows women who aren't ready to parent or never want to parent the freedom to live the lives they choose, the way they choose. Abortion is a necessary form of reproductive health care, and we shouldn't stand by as people distort and demonize it.
I don't disagree Girl; my intent is to point out that, even by a supposedly "pro-lifers" logic, they still don't care about life/what's best for the child.
And I agree with your points as well, I just felt that it needed to be said that pro-choicers shouldn't accept how anti-choicers characterize abortion. It is important that we don't tolerate the line that abortion is "killing babies", not only because it's not true, but because no one likes the idea of killing babies and when people think that's what abortion is about, they don't support abortion rights. And you're right that for the most part anti-abortion activism isn't about what's best for families and children, it's about enforcing gender roles and imposing religious dogma.
here here
And if you want to get really cute with the whole "when does life begin" question, Adam did not live until God breathed life into him ergo, a baby who breathes lives, one that does not never did. Abortion after a baby has taken its first breath is murder. Even fifty years after the first breath.
I'm with you Linda. Many of the so-called "Pro-Life" groups should be labeled terrorist organizations. You have the right to free speech in this country, but not the right to intimidate, threaten or harm those with whom you disagree.
Will Christian extremists be the next terrorists to beware? They're getting awfully bold and violent for followers of the lamb of God.
In a perfect world we would have almost NO NEED for abortion of any kind, and I do hope we are able to one day move in that direction. But so long as rape and incest exist, women should have the option to terminate any pregnancy, safely and legally. I wish there were a higher moral standard in America so that people weren't so consumed with sex that they often disregard easy solutions. Of course, Christianity itself —through continuing to shove abstinence-only sex education down children's throats— is part of the problem.
So let's take on these terrorists and fight for the rights of women everywhere. If they are truly on the side of what is right, they should embrace a push toward a solution that addresses the inherent problems rather than simply claiming to fight "for life," when they clearly do not cherish life itself, so much as their control over others' lives.
Oui:It is unfortunate that these people seem to run under the cover of "Christianity".
They are no more "Christian" than there is a man in the moon! They are radical and would rather be part of the problem than be part of the solution. Maybe someone needs to start taking down names of these folks and start filing for child support when the Dr. is unable to perform the termination as requested.
If children were taught properly AT HOME about sex and that it is a natural occurrence and a wonderful thing rather than some dirty thing to be treated as a taboo subject that piques their interest to explore, as you so correctly point out - we wouldn't need the number of terminations - especially teen terminations we have today. ( I chose the word termination instead of abortion because we abort a program, we terminate a pregnancy)
I would actually posit that the country has already been experiencing anti-choice terrorism for at least 2-3 decades now. There are many people who have a strong opinion that abortion is an immoral act, these aren't the terrorists. But the Randall Terry's of the world do embolden the most violent in these groups to commit acts of terrorism. The history of this movement is, indeed, littered with vandalism, bombings, and murders. Ostensibly, they say it is to save the unborn. I really think it's more about controlling women's choices. If it was about the babies these same people wouldn't be electing the kind of politicians who think eliminating WIC and the other 90% of Planned Parenthood's services that offer health care to low income women is a good way to balance budgets. They'd be screaming from the rooftops to make sure every baby born in this country had access to good, quality care. This is not the case. They're more interested in judging adversely the mothers who need these services and, again, electing people who will make sure they are eliminated.
Shebow: You are absolutely right. As far as I am concerned, anyone who declares that "abortion is murder" is, ipso facto, agitating for anti-choice terrorism.
outside if you are a pro-life or pro-choice, outside of any political or moral argument. These people kill a person! this is murder and they call them self pro life!! going to someone's house and intimidate! that's what criminals do!
I'm a pro- life and pro choice person (if that makes sense) I believe a child should be able to be born and have a decent and safe life until he have the ability to make his own choices, to have an education, to be loved. unfortunately that's not the case, specially with unwanted births. everybody talks about the mothers, what about the children that are born and given away, to whom!!! they are born, yes but who loves them, who protects them.... our adoption system doesn't work.
Also I found really annoying that this call pro-life persons think that any women that get an abortion is just stupid and not able to make her own decisions and therefor they are stepping in and telling them what to do. most of these women are making an inform and intelligent decision of having an abortion, they evaluate their position and thinks that is better for that life to be terminated than be born. maybe we should be looking in why these women think that. what are the reasons some women don't want to bring children to this world anymore. maybe the intimidations, the crimes or because maybe that child one day decides to become a doctor in kansas and perform abortions, maybe....
we should be focusing in making this world better place for all the life that already reside in it!!
I don't know why you believe "pro-life persons think that any woman that gets an abortion is just stupid and not able to make her own decisions." I fully accept that many pregnant women who want an abortion understand what they are doing. (However, SOME pregnant women who seek an abortion have had this "choice" forced upon them or encouraged by their husbands or boyfriends or parents. It's obviously difficult to get good counts on exactly who was the primary decider for an abortion, but the estimate of 30% for persons other than the pregnant woman seems in the right ballpark.)
I no more believe women seeking an abortion are stupid than I think men or women deciding to rob a bank or kill a rich relative to inherit property are stupid. I want abortion illegal because it's WRONG, just as wrong as robbing a bank or killing a rich relative. That's why we have laws making certain conduct illegal.
And, by the way, when abortion was illegal, it was almost exclusively the abortionists who were prosecuted and punished. There were hardly any cases in which the pregnant woman was prosecuted.
According you...
It's legal...get over it...*liberal use of delete here*
"hardly any cases in which the pregnant woman was prosecuted..."
sarcasm: Well, that's a relief! /sarcasm
And how many cases were there in which the pregnant woman was left sterile, or even dead because, in their desperation, they sought the procedure from unsafe "illegal" providers (much as desperately poor women in my hometown turned to that butcher Gosnell, much to their own great regret)?
Quit trying to "shrink" the government to fit in womens' uteruses!
Women who get pregnant and then are killed= not murder
Men who impregnant a woman than bitch about the fetus=saints
If a women that is carrying life inside her, that conceive that life, that is nurturing that life, that feel it's growing inside her, that know that on day that life can grow and transform into another human being, that knows that life is her CHOICE, that she's the one enabling it to survive, that she is RESPONSIBLE for. And that women makes a decision, the decision that that life need to be terminated. that under what ever her cir@!$%#ances are, she will be better with out it.
I as a women, i want that choice IT IS MY CHOICE! the choice that no man can ever understand. that no man can't ever feel and no man can make for me.
If your point is that a lot of women don't make that choice for themselves, maybe you should be advocating to educated women in their choice...
Well, you are right, PCAD, the women who received abortions weren't punished legally to my knowledge either. The ones who died and were no longer under the jurisdiction of the courts got off scot free. But fret not. The women who survived, frequently unable to conceive again, could count on plenty of shame and degradation to be heaped upon them by their families and communities while the men who impregnated them moved on with their lives relatively unscathed. Ah, the good old days.
If you're interested in how abortionists were considered before Roe v Wade, rent the 1951 Billy Wilder movie "Detective Story." Detective James McLeod (Kirk Douglas) arrests and roughs up abortionist Karl Schneider (George Macready). The abortionist's lawyer complains McLeod has targeted the abortionist because McLeod's wife (Eleanor Parker) had had an abortion from Schneider before McLeod had met her. McLeod breaks down completely when his wife confirms the lawyer's story, of which he, McLeod, had been unaware. He just hated abortionists on principle. The movie, its director, and a number of cast members received significant awards for their performances.
Seriously. Seriously? Are you related to Ronnie Ray-gun? Do you understand the difference between fiction and reality (I ask rhetorically, since, obviously, you do not)? That was not a documentary. Hollywood movies are not real life! A real woman, e.g., who is pregnant by rape, incest, or whatever, isn't dealing with movie props, and no film director is going to yell "cut!" and magically end her distress.
Pretz: I read this and could not respond...it was just too much for me.
Actually the main argument FOR Roe vs. Wade was that if you didn't legalize abortion you'd be sanctioning the murder of more citizens than if you outlawed it. Please remember www.loc.com. You can always review this crap online. When people lie don't get mad- do your research. EVERY US SUPREME COURT DECISION AND EVERY BILL PROPOSED BY THE HOUSE OR SENATE IS AVAILABLE- ALSO EVERY BILL PASSED BY THE HOUSE AND SENATE IS AVAILABLE. Educate yourselves America!!! www.supremecourt.gov
Pretzelogic...: I know his type all to well. When reality conflicts with their ideology, they will always reject reality in favor of their ideology.
Pro: You really DO live in a fantasy world unto your own. Don't you? When all you can use for arguments are Hollywood movies, rather than actual true life situations. Retreating into OLD movies and wishing we were back in the good 'ol days ain't gonna make it so. Our society has moved on and you can either join the flow moving forward, get run over by those who are or fade away.
Del City OKLA - The mother whose 3 children died Jan 4 2011 in a motor home fire had left them there, locked inside, while she was under the influence of methamphetamine, police allege. She and her husband have been charged with 3 counts of criminal negligence in the deaths of the children. Her own mother wishes she had taken the toddlers away knowing they would still be alive today if she had. Surprize of surprizes, the 25 y/o is pregnant again!!!
On one hand we have "abort" and on the other we have "live to the ripe ol' age of 3 then burn to a crisp because your parents are too stoned to care"......I know which weighs heavier on my conscience; what about you?
There is no such thing as "pro-Life". These people are Anti-Choice and Anti-Woman. The type of laws they and the Republicans are attempting to pass in the House are no less draconian than those we witness in the Middle East. The only difference is that they are operating under the guise of "Christianity". There is a reason this country and the document that guides this country seeks to maintain a separation of Church and State. This is what happens when that line gets blurred. A woman or for that matter any sane adult individual, and I define adult here as, if you can get pregnant, you can make the choice, should have the right to determine what happens to their own body.
When these anti-choice protesters fill out the legal documents, as the woman walks in the clinic, that say they will be financially responsible for the child until that child reaches the point of being self-sufficient, then maybe I would go along with them - but NEVER in the case of rape or incest.
1. I'm not "operating under the guise of Christianity.'" I'm an atheist who believes that laws protecting individuals -- ALL individuals -- are valuable to and for those individuals.
2. Nobody has "the right to determine what happens to his or her own body." You only have a right to choose what someone else does to your body, but what results from that activity depends upon many factors, not the least of which is random chance, beyond your knowledge or control.
3. Anti-choice protesters need not assume financial responsibility for anybody. They and pro-choice protesters should all be free to protest. At least that's how I understand the speech components of the 1st Amendment.
4. "Maybe I would go along with them - but NEVER in the case of rape or incest." We know Planned Parenthood has repeatedly covered up incest cases and performed or recommended abortions regardless of the pregnant woman's actual wishes.
5. How does one know a rape occurred? If the woman makes no report before she knows she's pregnant, I believe most DAs would be reluctant to charge the rapist she identifies, assuming she identifies someone. And if her statement of having been raped is sufficient to justify / permit an abortion, I expect almost every woman wanting an abortion would claim to have been raped.
DNFT people
But Mickey...it's so. hard. not. to.
Jender: People need to flag him...everything he says has no value and is inflammatory.
My blue eyes are turning @!$%#in' brown...*empties troll food bag onto the floor*
*coughhorse@!$%#cough*
Oh no, I know. You two are so beautiful for tackling this guy...I wish I was half the woman you all were....I just...stupidity is stupidity is stupidity and at first I wanted to try to change it but as people like Katy have taught me stupidity is intentional and there is nothing you can do. If you choose to fight it I admire you, I really, really do, I just don't want you to think that's all you can do. All ya'lls talents have other purposes than telling a dumbass why he's a dumbass. I'd rather have you use them to teach (in the ways you both do) than bother with these dumbshi...you get the points.
{{{Mickey}}} - you rock :)
and you always add something really well thought out and insightful or just gorram delightfully snarky to the conversation; every time you post.
;-) What can I say? I'm very charismatic ;-)
s
Rachel:
I've been following this expose on your show. Please go further and ask why the Department of Justice isn't prosecuting these groups for Domestic Terrorism.
It's time that legal remedies are used for what is clearly incitement to violence.