Nope. I left SC 31 years ago, and they still succeed in embarrassing me now and then while they've never done one thing to make me proud. I was excited a few years back when they promised to susceed from the USA and form their own theocratic country but that was one of their lies as usual.

Sadly, we'll probably always be embarrassed by these people. I was born in Florida, but south of the line delineating between Southerners and Floridians; this makes me a "Florida Yankee", I'm told. <shrug>

At any rate, I just can't quite come to terms with the problems they have in understanding that they lost the war...a century and a half ago. Let. It. Go. We're all "one nation, indivisible", now.

NextMSNBCstar - It's very often embarrassing to be an American...

I used to teach at Clemson, but I never felt like I really became a resident of South Carolina. It just never welcomed me the way Arkansas did (all those writers and hippies and hillbillies up in the Ozarks were just too hilarious and fun!).

Piedmont poop! You could just feel the authoritarian mind-set among so many of my students. (But with refreshing pockets of exceptions, like my wonderful neighbor and the goofy and irreverent hole-in-the-wall bar she ran)

Katy...I have had that thought a few times. It happens when traveling abroad too.

A lot of hippies up in those mountains...the music is great there Chris.

IF there is no "GrandFathering", then we are all children of illegal immigrants. I'm a product of undocumented immigrants...(slaves). There are millions of undocumented immigrants here....and they are not all Mexican. I'm from South Carolina and this simply transfered hatred. Mexicans are the "new blacks" of the South and have been for a while. Bullying minorities is business as usual. Blacks join in on the bullying because it a way of fitting in and blending in for the sake of...."Glad It Aint't Me No-more". This is unfortunatley a Human response. I'm sure someday there will be Mexican-Americans thumbing their noses at Arab immigrants or who-ever is the next "new black". I imagine we will continue to Transfer The Hate. We could look at the money end of this story. let's say we gather up enough Pixie Dust to remove all undocumented immigrants. Financially, entire communities would be devestated. Revenue droughts would destroy businesses large and small. Removal is not the answer.

Becasue it measn the employee, or eprsn providing some services, now have to be experts in identifying bad papers. It also has the effect that employees will not want to hire brown people at all, just to be safe. At its BEST, E-Verify has a 97% success rate. While that initially sounds good, that means 3 out of every 100 legal workers won't be able to get work, and will be visited by a law enforcement agency.

Checking papers is all about control through intimidation. This is why we made fun of the soviets and the Nazis when they did it. It was considering a disgusting plague on basic human freedoms.

Then there is the 'small' issue that this is completely against why America was founded, and flyies directly in the face of a free country.

What's controversial is that all they have to do is suspect you're an immigrant during a simple traffic stop to pull this "papers, please" crap. So be careful if you have brown skin and a lead foot...

Any law that causes skin color to become built into the scrutiny process that government officials follow is a problem.

If the majority of illegal immigrants have dark skins (probably true) this law institutes rascism. Any one with dark skin gets a second look, by police, employers and taxi drivers.

OK, we don't like asking for identification.....how do we solve the problem? What can we agree would be fair to all tax payers, legal immigrants, and non-legal? We know what we don't like and can bash it all day for giggles, tell me what works.

So when they say "papers, please" and you're not an illegal immigrant, what then? Do you oppose showing ID to buy beer? What about when the police officer ask to see your driver's license when you were speeding? Why is that not stupid too?

Do you oppose any enforcement of immigration restrictions? If not, then just say so. But if so, how do you begin any enforcement without first becoming suspicious and then following through with some sort of check?

But everyone is asked to show ID for those things. Not just brown people. The problem is that laws like this will cause fully legal American citizens to be scrutinized in a way that the rest of us aren't, because of their skin color.

Greg-3642778,

I was a poverty lawyer for many years, most of my legal career. I loved it. When I was transferred to the migrant agricultural worker section because I speak Spanish fluently, I was thrilled.

What I want you to do, is go to the nearest citrus grove, tomato farm, lettuce farm, etc. You get the idea. I want you to work alongside the undocumented workers all day long. It is my educated prediction that you won't last until 10 AM. You will be so sunburned (your yuppie sunblock will have sweat off) you are already peeling, you will not believe your back is not permanently broken and you will swear that you will be deformed for life.

Ernest Hemingway's portrayal in The Grapes of Wrath was only a cleaned up version of the life migrant agricultural workers lead. And over 90% of them are Hispanic. And of that 90%, 60% are undocumented.

So the next time you want to talk about undocumented workers taking US jobs, please, don't talk with your mouth full. It's uncouth.

@Geek: Really, 3 out of 100 won't be able to find work? I suppose when a mistake is found they have no opportunity to clear things up. Do credit bureaus work that way too?

I suppose you want the US to the the only nation in the world with no immigration laws. That is effectively what you're saying.

Grapes of Wrath was written by John Steinbeck. ;^)

@InRepair: Not true. Generally 60 year old men do not need to show ID to buy beer. 21 year olds, who can legally buy beer face extra scrutiny. The store clerk first suspects someone might be under 21, then asks for ID (or papers if we're desire to mock rather than discuss).

How do you suggest enforcing immigration laws? Do we ever let suspicion lead to extra questioning, or must we enforce policy while being completely blind to our personal suspicions.

HAHAHA! And what's a poverty lawyer anyway?

@ Pinpernel, I don't think you know what you're talking about. Most Hispanics wear long sleeves and hats to keep themselves from getting darker when working in the sun. You obviously have never seen them work.

I'm not sure what point you're trying to make but I'm not sure you could make it any longer than he could doing that kind of work.

The silver lining here is that the law will be enforced only until it becomes too cumbersome and/or expensive for the business community.

Watch what happens to compliance once contractors have to charge more because they can't hire illegal immigrants. Once harvests aren't done and produce spoils, or when farmers can't pay ridiculously low wages to hire workers. Once 1) the profits for motels, restaurants, and other tourist businesses go down because they have to pay more for legal residents to do grind work, or 2) they're shorthanded because they can't find anybody to do those jobs at a wage they're willing to pay.

We'll see just how "supportive" the people of SC are when it comes to those laws. Or how hypocritical they are.

....the US has immigration laws NC. We actually have some of the most restrictive immigration laws of all industrialized nations in the world. The only people who have more restrictive immigration laws than us are countries like South Korea...and they are a DMZ. I don't know exactly where you're going at w/ that comment? Historically speaking the US has always lead in scrutinizing against immigrants after our initial founding. We don't allow very many legal immigrants to come into this country per year. In fact one of the trade offs that will likely have to happen if we were to nationally reform our immigration laws would be to allow more legal workers to come into the country in exchange for tougher enforcement against illegal workers.

The only complaint I see here is that people do not want Hispanics to be profiled against based on their race (which is unconstitutional). Whether or not this will happen w/ the law depends on how it's implemented by law enforcement w/in the state....

I cannot say whether US immigration laws are tougher than other nations. But what I'm talking about is the fact that if law enforcement does not enforce immigration laws, regardless of how restrictive, then effectively we have no immigration laws.

There has been a wide range of complaints on this site about the SC legislation. Some oppose only profiling, but others have opposed virtually any attempt to enforce immigration laws, including such things as job providers checking legal status (see Geek0id's post). If this is only about profiling and not about other enforcement, perhaps you could join me in rebutting the sentiment expressed by those such as Geek0id and other's throughout the board that are attacking the legislation for other reasons.

@mpguy: That seems like an ideal outcome for liberals. Today in Myrtle Beach they may pay $10 per hour for workers doing landscaping, filling these positions with illegal works. If there are not enough illegal workers, they'll have to offer more money to lure US citizens in SC to do the work. Perhaps they'll be paying $20 or $25 per hour. This seems ideal. Poor people in SC suddenly have new job opportunities that pay enough to make ends meet. The wealthy and upper middle class guests that visit Myrtle Beach have to pay a little more to stay there. And the wealthy business owners have to make slightly less profit. That sounds like it would spread the wealth better within the country.

Perhaps there are wealthy businesses that won't like this, but who cares. They will naturally oppose it, but they won't be truthful about why they're opposing it. Probably they'll say things like "we don't want profiling" and "we're all a nation of immigrants", but really they want cheap labor. Of course a certain percentage of Americans will be gullible enough to buy their rhetoric and actually be too blind to realize it's big businesses behind the push for cheap labor. Some will be so gullible to actually think big businesses are the ones opposing cheap labor by trying to drive out illegals.

I am not opposed to the E-Verify system. I personally believe businesses like immigration because they want to force labor wages down. Illegal immigrants are also abused by the system and have no legal recourse to defend themselves. I do think, however, our nation is going to have to dramatically change our restrictive immigration laws in order to accommodate the flow of immigration we currently have. Our immigration laws really haven't been updated to deal w/ large masses coming into the US by means other than boat. Until you can come up w/ a system that's easier than our current one I don't think enforcement really matters. I also don't think it's realistic to pretend we can deport everyone who is here illegally. Some sort of citizenship amnesty should be offered that isn't the current 16 yr amnesty.

We Will Never See The Dream Act....it would mean Death to the Republican Party. Those kids will grow up and most likely vote Democrat. There...ladies and gentleman is why the republicans will never allow any kind of immigration act to come to life. Illegal Status works well for the Repubs. (Their Permanent Whipping Boy, Rallying Cry, Scapegoat for all that is wrong in America.) It aint gonna Happen! So your answer ERIC2804575.... are many plans to document immigrants that already exist....but The Republicans can not , nor will they allow that many potential Democratic voters. We will never see that day,

I always thought the idea of service for citizenship or education for citizenship was good. You could even make a requirement that for every year spent in school the citizen must spend that time in the US before he/she will be issued a passport to leave the country. Seems fair to me. Service, ftr, wouldn't have to necessarily be military service either. There are tons and tons of jobs you could have someone do for the public for a contracted amount of time (like w/ the military) in which, after that time was paid, the person was granted citizenship. That seems like a win-win.

MM, if you keep posting great idea that make sense, you are never gonna get elected to a political office. Any plan that would be successful....is UNACCEPTABLE! the plan is to never, ever, ever, ever, ever ever have a plan. We keep treating the symptoms.....and never look to the cause.

Sadly my dreams of becoming a Senator or Governor may be cut short by this very reality. In my mind solutions come from the bottom up and the real "wasteful, big government spending" comes from inefficacy. Band-aids are great when you have a boo-boo, but terrible when you have an open, gaping, bleeding wound.

Here's a thought.....When we were in school, we were given assignments to complete within a designated time and return for grade. Why is our system for politicians any different?...They are presented with issues to be resolved and in return they receive a paycheck. The way I see it, they are the "deadbeats", receiving a payday with out performance. How much longer do we say it's ok to elect and pay politicians for doing nothing. I'll argue loudly and wave my hands wildy in the air and pretend to passionate aobut the needs of those I am paid to represent for $170k...... "NOW HIRING PERFORMANCED BASED POLITICIANS" should be printed on applications for all running for public office. (it's time we say... enough.)

If the illegal immigrants leave, the business owners will be forced to offer more money and/or offer better benefits to lure the same number of workers.

Tell me, exactly how will anyone force us to do a job we don't want to do? If you're not willing to work construction for $7.50 an hour when illegal immigrants are doing it, how are you going to be more motivated to do it when the illegal immigrants aren't doing it? Do you care that much about a greedy builder building a house for someone you don't know that you're willing to take a job just because no one else will?

Really. I really want to know. How will they force you to take a job you don't want? Perhaps they could take away you're other options, but I cannot fathom how taking away other workers would force you into anything.

You'd be surprised at what lack of opportunity will force a person into.

Do you really not comprehend? Of course I'd work on the farm if that was my only opportunity. Let me ask again. How does sending some farm workers back to Mexico reduce my opportunities? You've asserted that those wanting to enforce immigration are trying to force us into harder jobs for less pay. How is that going to happen? Really. Really. What is the sequence of events that would make someone leave a better job, and take a pay cut because some business is having trouble finding illegal labor?

I suggest you go to the nearest farm that hires migrant workers. Tell them you'll take a pay cut to work for them if they'll fire one migrant worker. As absurd as that sounds, that seems to be what you think the rest of us are going to do.

NCGuy, you're not getting it. Most of these people would rather take government aid than work that hard for that salary. You have personal pride and a sense of responsibility. Others don't.

@eap1: Although I didn't mention that, I have not failed to consider it. I hope I'm not sounding hostile, but the same question still applies. If someone is taking government aid and suddenly some illegal workers are sent home, how would that force them to stop taking government aid?

It wouldn't. I'm just talking about the entitlement mentality that is running rampant, especially in my generation. I think secretly a lot of people want those illegals here to do those job so that they don't have to if their benefits ever go away.

This is a silly little game that we're playing pretending that there's really any concern about these illegals aside from the fact that they're a potentially huge voting block that both sides are trying to court.

I think a consideration of the laws of supply and demand as applied to labor would potentially lead someone to be in favor of stricter immigration enforcement aside from any voting block concerns. Personally, I think the result would be a more equal distribution of wealth for those of us left in the US.

If I'm out of work and out of benefits, a job opening picking apples carries only opportunity. It doesn't carry any obligation nor burden. I don't have to take the job, and the result would be that I'm no worse off than if the job were already filled and hence not available.

I agree, and in a perfect world you'd be right.

Kalana, I agree with you. However, you should know that some of us didn't have a choice about our ancestors immigrating to this country.

I'm with Kalana...I am 1/8th Cherokee...plus some .....I've always thought that the anti-immigrant policies are Hypocritical. Our ancestors stole the whole country.

1/8? REALLY?

Get off your high horse. Cherokee regularly took land from other tribes. In fact, there fighting among other tribes was a great boon to the people expanding America.

And saying all of us are illegal is pretty damn stupid.

Yes, and many people forget that the "brown" people they are so worried about are native people in their ancestral land.

They didn't cross the borders, the borders crossed them.

How easily people forget.

As I am part Cherokee myself I see your point. But Brother, when our ancestors crossed the landbridge, were they the first?

I guess the first people should have put up a fence until the water closed the bridge.

I wonder if they were republicans?

I guess the American Indians can educate us all about what happens when you don't control immigration.

Hay I am native American, I was born on this land, so was my dad, his dad, his dad and his dad. I bet the first people on the American continent were Cave Men. So if I am an illegal immigrant then so are you Kalana. I bet the Cave men are yelling at both of us Get off my land.

you have it exactly right Raymond. cultural evolution is inevitable but it has never stopped folks from trying to prevent change.

are you kidding you know how many more cops they are going to need. Ha ha ha

the oposite will happen... jobs will be lost, crops will rot in the fields and on trees.

food shortages will increase higher prices and the list of loss goes on and on. No one is gonna go work the fields for 5 dollars a day. this is the republicans standard whipping boy distraction. We dont have a plan for jobs and we are not gonna raise taxes on the top 5%, we are not gonna take corporate welfare away, we are not gonna stop speculators from jacking up gas prices etc.......so let's use immigration and abortions as a distraction and suck up all the legislative time for getting anything else done. By 2012 we can say...wow that damn Obama didnt do a damn thing in 4 years.

The constitution, 14th amendment, thank god.

I worked in law enforcement many years ago. Whenever illegals were discovered and INS was notiified they would not respond unless there were several persons to take into custody. Has someone found a bucket of money to support INS? Who will pay for the transportation and housing of these "illegals"? How is this helping the economy? What is the point other than to target a specific ethnicity group? Today it is Illegals" tomorrow those with red hair or "funny accents"....This is white extreme wing nuts on the rampage. Of course with big business out sourcing all our jobs we may become the illegals of the future going outside our country to feed our families!

Wow....great insight. i totally agree. this reminds me of the kid who is told to share his toys with others....and to avoid having to share....he breaks everyone of his toys and leaves them scattered all over the yard. What Political Party fits this description?

This is basically business as usual. Let's start with Native Americans. From the begining of recorded history of this Country, we have documented the harassment of those deemed different than the original Colonist. ....(Irish immigrant, Scottish immigrants, Asian immigrants, Polish immigrants and the list goes on and on, were all targeted and dealt harsh hands). We have come a long way in our treatment of those who appear to be different than origianl Colonist. The problem is, we dont learn from past inhumanities. Fast forward to present day and you have the "NEW BLACKS". (MEXICANS)......who's next? The same citizens who were in the above groups and abused and treated harshly.....are now the abusers....yeah I'm talking about you.

There was much Obama promised and hoped to accomplish after taking office. However Obama along with rest of the nation did not expect the free fall of the country when he was elected. Considering what slapped him and us in the face in late 08 and 09 I feel the job he has done is worth appreciation. There is more we would like done but it takes the agreement of congress to pass those laws, not the president. The republicans have fought the good fight to keep the nation on the downhill path until they can get thier party in power, should they gain power it will not be for the good of the majority of americans or those wishing for citizenship.

Tamlea - I agree with every word!

And you and I can pick up the 5-6 figure price tag of deporting him instead of letting him be a functioning member of society paying taxes, brilliant!

Or as a counter argument, you make them citizens so that they start paying taxes and raise revenues instead of spending them on deportation. Obviously, they would need to pay back taxes, learn English, and pass a citizenship test - but why are we so opposed to legalizing those who are already here functioning in our society? How does it help the immigration problem by rounding up people and shipping them back home when we can't keep them from sneaking back in?

They do pay taxes. If they have a fake SSN and they're on a company payroll, then they pay income and Social Security taxes. If they buy something they pay a sales tax. If they own property, they pay a property tax. How can they get around paying taxes? By claiming that they're here illegally? Do they fill out special forms?

@Eileen - not all undocumented workers have a fake SSN. A lot of them work "under the table", which means they don't pay payroll taxes. Yes, they pay sales taxes - but I was not referring to those (as there are actually some states that don't have sales taxes, so not every undocumented worker pays taxes). In hindsight, I should have stated "...they start paying payroll taxes" instead of just "...they start paying taxes".

It's the mega-corporate types who successfully avoid paying taxes.