I agree 100%. I don't need anyone standing in front of me telling me how to love God or live my life. God knows me better than I do,,, whats in my heart. I trust myself to live and walk my on Path.

i've head that before - who wrote that?

Me...

Way back in 1994...

I have posted online before, on the Able Minds Forum

I'm NoBody sprcial...

heh....

That is an excellent poem. I would like very much to be able to quote it with proper attribution.

It's a great poem but it's message misses Prof. Harris-Perry's point. She said faith is an act of intellectual humility. I think we can agree that politicians could use a big dose of that. The point is we don't always know all the answers no matter how much soul-searching mirror in mind gazing we do. Sometimes results in no way match data. I'm sure 160 years ago many predicted there'd be no such thing as a sizable African American community let alone the multitude of contributions made by said group to American society and culture. However, here we are in some of us are thriving others hanging on but we're here nonetheless, 40 million strong.

But it's not. This is no slight against MHP, but she was wrong. It's not Intellectual Humility. Agnosticism comes closer to that, though if anything I'd say that Agnosticism would be Intellectual Objectivity as it just acknowledges that the supernatural is beyond our ability to analyze by definition.

Faith is more like an Intellectual shrug of the shoulders. I appreciate where she was coming from, telling a story about personal faith and it's role in politics. Especially regarding our history.

But,....it's a little creepy.

Let me explain. There is a huge amount of gray area along the lines of what constitutes culture and what constitutes religion. You see this most pronounced with Arabs/Palestinians/Middle-Easterners and Islam and Jews and Judaism, but there's also recently been a build-up of it with regards to Blacks, and it's creepy.

The basic idea is the same throughout, that you could be born into a religion, and that to be true to your cultural identity you also have to be a follower/believer.

Another side effect is the cheap practice of insisting that any attacks against a system of belief is an act of Racism, as the term Islamophobia is being misused in Europe.

Don't get me wrong, I'll fight for your freedom to practice your religion, but when I'm critical of the religion it's not a personal attack against you, and it's not an act of racism, you are not your religion.

When I've seen this pressure in the Black community it has always, always used the Civil Rights Era and the Emancipation of Blacks from Slavery as examples, and that's just ridiculous. "The Good Lord" didn't free us, a great big bloody Civil War did. And MLK Jr. was inspired by Gandhi, what might that mean for spirituality. And Malcolm X was killed by members of the Nation of Islam for god's sake!

It's not just wrong to think that we have to honor our ancestors by believing what they did. It's creepy. Especially when many of the Blacks received their knowledge about God from very people they were suffering under. Especially when many white people justified slavery through the use of the pro-slavery verses in the bible, and dusted off the old "We're leading the savages to the lord" excuse they used with the Native Americans.

Manifest Destiny anyone?

So, I understand how some people could come to see faith as some sort of cultural inheritance, a shield that we once used in times of oppression that we pass down from father to son.

But that doesn't make it less creepy.

Absurdism is an atheist philosophy defined basically as the human need to understand the universe while the nature of the universe is beyond human comprehension. The vastness of the universe is humbling, and it's also humbling to believe that there isn't anything out there that cares about the affairs of human beings.

Not all atheists believe the nature of the universe can be broken down into a mathematical equation. But it doesn't mean we should stop trying to understand it.

It's when people think they've got it all figured out that they become arrogant...which could be with or without faith.

It's when people think they've got it all figured out that they become arrogant...which could be with or without faith.

So very well said.

Here's an interesting thought from John Gribben on the nature of the universe:

Are We Living in a Designer Universe?

The creators of the world were closer to men than to gods, argues John Gribbin.

telegraph.co.uk/science/space/7972538/Are-we-living-in-a-designer-universe html

This idea provides the best resolution yet to the puzzle Albert Einstein used to raise, that "the most incomprehensible thing about the Universe is that it is comprehensible". The universe is comprehensible to the human mind because it was designed, at least to some extent, by intelligent beings with minds similar to our own.

The great British astronomer Fred Hoyle suggested that the laws of physics were so uniquely conducive to human existence that the universe must be "a put-up job". I believe he was right: the universe was indeed set up to provide a home for life, even if it evolved through a process of natural selection, with no need for outside interference. It isn't that man was created in God's image – rather that our universe was created, more or less, in the image of its designers.

Anyone ever read Lord of Light by Roger Zelazny? Just saying. Great book.

Agree, DonQ. One of Zelazny's best. And he's written a few.

Randy,

Permission is happily given.

I've posted my sonnets online before, without expectation of attribution or compensation. I'm flattered that you like them enough to ask.

I view them like little literary messages in a bottle. If anyone likes them, great! If they want to pass them on, even better! If they change anyone's life for the better..

The profit for me is the good karma they vreate for me. I believe the karma collects in my account, whether I'm informed about it or not...

David, have you been published? If not, you should be. I think you are terrific.

Thank you so much for sharing with us your wisdom and talent. I look forward to more lovely thoughts and words from you.

Eleventh line. Hurm.

Otherwise, pretty good.

Joybar,

See post 1.14. Nope, never published, but if you're interested, I've put most of the ones I've written on the Newsvine. You are welcome to enjoy them...

Peanut,

"Forgive yourself and others without hesitation." Hmm...

Do you have trouble forgiving yourself for something you've done in the past? Well, that would be IN the past, and what is done, is done. Beating up on yourself about it would just generate guilt, a negative emotion, and that's bad karma. You woukd be programming yourself to fail...

Do you blame others? It's not what others do that affects you; It's how you FEEL about what others do, that affects you. Anger, resentment, frustration are normal reactions to actions of others, but all of these are self-destructive negative emotions, and bad karma. Sure, you can try to force others to do what you think is right, but imposing your will on others not only takes away their chance to make their choices and possibly gain giood karma, it's little more than karmic slavery, and that's VERY bad karma. Try gentle persuasion instead; It's not only better for you, but you have a better chance of actually changing their minds to your way of thinking...

Kind of like this...

Really harsh, Katy264, and really unfair. I've read through many of your previous posts, and you seem to greatly dislike this blog site and many of the people who reside here. That's your right, of course, but one would think that if it's so beneath you, you'd want to avoid us.

She never argues against faith. At all. She does equate reason with cynicism as if reason can't imagine something better. It's really disengenous of her not to talk about gawd that's clearly her argument. What a load of crap.

I don't really think there's a problem with that. While I don't hate all of Christianity, (the Jesus bits aren't bad, and Christmas is fantastic,) I do admit that I hate several parts of it. But I don't hate Christians.

I suppose it's the Atheist variant of the Christian idea of "Love the sinner, hate the sin." I don't hate people just because I think their religion isn't true.

MHP did a good job. I hope she's on tap for the next time Rachel needs a substitute.

I don't hate Christianity, it's Christianism I have a problem with.

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1191826,00.html

So let me suggest that we take back the word Christian while giving the religious right a new adjective: Christianist. Christianity, in this view, is simply a faith. Christianism is an ideology, politics, an ism. The distinction between Christian and Christianist echoes the distinction we make between Muslim and Islamist. Muslims are those who follow Islam. Islamists are those who want to wield Islam as a political force and conflate state and mosque. Not all Islamists are violent. Only a tiny few are terrorists. And I should underline that the term Christianist is in no way designed to label people on the religious right as favoring any violence at all. I mean merely by the term Christianist the view that religious faith is so important that it must also have a precise political agenda. It is the belief that religion dictates politics and that politics should dictate the laws for everyone, Christian and non-Christian alike.

That's what I dissent from, and I dissent from it as a Christian. I dissent from the political pollution of sincere, personal faith. I dissent most strongly from the attempt to argue that one party represents God and that the other doesn't. I dissent from having my faith co-opted and wielded by people whose politics I do not share and whose intolerance I abhor. The word Christian belongs to no political party. It's time the quiet majority of believers took it back.

Katey, it is clear from this post and others that you have posted that you do not understand the situation that was presented ...An athiest or agnostic does not hate religion of any kind ... but views religion as a pasifier for those that do not or will not think for themselves ... 2000 years ago the latin philosopher Seneca wrote: "Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful

Just remember that when in doubt or in trouble a politican will invoke "god"

Kathy264 - I am not sure how you make the leap that if you are an Atheist you HATE Christianity. Do you not understand what an Atheist is? And I agree with the other people who have reacted to your post. Although, I would say that it was a little more than harsh.. it was ignorant and even childish. And even more important added nothing to the discussion. Now that, your comments, are something worth hitting the cutting room floor.

I'm adding my two cents here because I think it needs to be driven home that atheists don't hate Christians. If you want to insult a group of people, at least get your facts straight--maybe do some research. (Although, being a person of faith, I imagine doing research and gathering facts isn't something you're used to doing.) What I do hate is misogyny, oppression, hypocrisy, ignorance, discrimination, and lazy thinking, but I don't hate Christians just because they're Christians. I wonder if it's common for Christians to have this misconception about atheists because it's what they need to tell themselves so they can feel righteous in hating yet another community of people who don't think what they think or believe what they believe. How is it that atheists manage to display a greater sense of compassion than most believers seem to do? It's a shame.

I can honestly say that I've never met an atheist that HATES Christians but, many atheists find that the "Christian attitude" is a bit extreme and very judgmental. Also when you bring Christianity into politics, you get these Conservatives actually pushing their religious views on the rest of the world. While I, myself am not an atheist I refuse to align myself with an organized religion for two reasons. One, is because I'd rather have my own religious views than have some person stand before me and tell me what to believe in and, two organized religion is one of the most detrimental things to human beings there is. I offer my view, of course because this faith in these organized religions has led to many uncalled for violent acts such as the crusades, the Salem witch trails, the holocaust, in a way 9/11, this post-9/11 hatred, and most recently these bombings in Aslo. While faith itself gives us hope and gets us through the hard times, these organized religions twist and warp this hope into intolerance and hatred for those who don't see their way.

Peace.

It LIVES!!!

I belive in God with all my heart! But I do not go to church for a reason, just one guy- you are right, Bright1 you you are also right. organized religion cause more harm than good. I have gone to many derffernt churchs trying to find one I could call home. The minster almost always has to finsh a sermon wit some kind of slam against other christin faths and all faths that are not christin. I DO NOT BELIVE THAT GOD LOVES ONE PERSON OR GROUP OR RELIGION OVER ANOTHER!!! OUR FOUNDING FATHERS DID THE THINGS THEY DID FOR A REASON, THEY LIVED UNDER RELIGIOUS TERNNY< THEY SEEN FRIST HAND WHAT HAPPENS WHEN ONE CHURCH TAKES CONTROL OF THE GOV> AND COUNTRY! WE WERE FOUNDED ON FREEDOM NOT CHRISTANTY!!

Katy, you are ignorant about atheists.

I once was a charismatic Christian but lost my faith and found I didn't need it. But atheists don't hate god or those that believe...we just don't get there to start!

If I were still a person of faith, I would pray for you because you clearly have hate in your heart. But instead I know you get the world you want. One full of darkness, ignorance and hate. Peace be unto you...because you are going to need it, hon.

Katy, you fall into a trap seen very frequently here: use of absolute words.

A minor change would have made all the difference. Instead of:

"Additionally, even the Atheists cannot separate themselves from the hatred they have for Christianity."

...you should have said:

"Additionally, many Atheists cannot separate themselves from the hatred they have for Christianity."

Your version could never stand up to scrutiny, the alternate could. I am an atheist, and I do not hate Christianity. I think it, like all organized religions, is silly and used to control masses of people, but despite the many things within it that are worthy of hatred, it's not a binary all-or-nothing.

And like I said, this kind of usage is very common here. How many times do you see things like "all conservatives eat puppies" and "all liberals care more and will spend every bit of everyone else's money to prove it" in political discourse? Religion is hardly different.

Not all cons are awful. Not all libs are awful. Not all atheists are awful. Not all xians are awful.

If there is one rule every commenter here should follow, it's: read before you post and be sure you can back up your words.

Oh, Katy264, you really stepped in it! Here's how it breaks down:

A = Without

Theism = God

Atheism = without god

We don't hate god. We don't acknowledge god. There is no god. You made it up. We also don't acknowledge satan. We are not devil-worshippers. Satan is a christian construct. So are heaven and hell. If I don't buy god, I don't get to buy the other stuff either.

Got it? Atheism means I don't believe in god, not that I hate god.

Do you understand the concept better now?

Regarding the faith segment that was rightfully cut from last night's program, it's the same argument other religious people have given me before: "What gives you hope?" As if I need a fairytale to reassure me.

The sun on my daughter's face gives me hope. The kitten frisking around my feet gives me hope. There are all kinds of things that give me hope that don't depend on magical thinking. I don't need something outside of myself to tell me everything will be okay. Either it will, or it won't.

If you subscribe to magical thinking, consider this: God sees every sparrow fall.

But does god do anything to stop it? NO. The sparrow falls. How hopeful is that?

All that says to me is that god is indifferent to mortal concerns.

And Vox Populous: Christmas is awesome, but it was the christians co-opting the pagans. Christ was born when the lambs were gamboling in the field, which means March, or later. Jerusalem is on the same meridian as Los Angeles, and the weather is remarkably similar. The pagans were happily celebrating the shortest day of the year and refused to give it up. So the christians said, fine, you keep your holiday, and we'll crap it up with our dogma. Now join us! And the weaker-minded of them did.

"The christian resolution to find the world ugly and bad has made the world ugly and bad." -Nietzsche

To be quite honest, the most hateful behavior I have seen and experienced comes from people who label themselves as Christians. They have often proved to be vicious, gossipy, vengeful, judgmental, discriminatory, and absolutist in their thinking.

I should also interject and say that I have occasionally encountered Christians who I believe come closer to being Christian (ie, as much like Christ as a human can be). They strive to love others and not to judge but to understand. A few of these individuals have offered prayers for me even if it is clear they do not agree with me on substantive social issues.

Unfortunately, I find that the first version of "Christian" is more common than the second. Katy, you also made a judgement about atheists that sounds wholly unlike the many I know. These tend not to be haters-- they tend to be people who understand the world not through a religious text but rather through their own perception of what they think will make the world a better place-- usually one along the lines of secular humanism rather than competitive ideology that you suggest.

Grow up. If you are so insecure in your own faith that you have to attack others (or their lack of it), you apparently need to do a little more spiritual work.

Normally I do not respond to hateful, vile comments, but you personally insulted me.

To stay in your tone, only morons would let faith guide them on political or other issues, besides faith. It is true our morals are influenced by our upbringing, which in most cases is in a christian environment, be it schools or home. But for the non morons, who is most people on this site, we DO know how to keep faith where it belongs, and be guided by rationale and science. An example, to spell it out for you, we might not ever have an abortion, for whatever reason, that does not keep us from making it available to others.

As many people before me said, Atheists do NOT hate any religion.

How can you say I hate christianity? You don't know me. I do consider myself an agnostic, leaning towards atheism. That does not stop me from respecting other people for what they are, be they Christians, Muslim or whatever. Their faith is their concern, not mine.

While we are at the subject of hate, more people have died in the name of God, any denomination, than any other issue. Does that mean, that religious people in general are more hateful? No Atheist ever called their legions to arms. No atheist ever started a war in the name of atheism. think about that.

So you call this video stupid because she does not agree with your believes?

MHP was talking about the faith you execise when you pray in your closet. Not the kind you get rewarded for shouting it on a street corner. Not the kind that political "Christians" want to shove down the throats of all and sundry, but the kind that is your own business, your own relationship with God, and no-one elses.

Otherwise everything that is said to be done in the name of God is fair including the terrorism of Breivik, Jim Jones, David Koresh; the bombing of Planned Parenthood, abortion clinics, and mosques in America; not to mention the picketing of funerals, the outcry against gay marriage, and the horrific acts of every psychopath who ever was directed by a voice in his head that he was just sure was that of God.

Citations, please, of calling people who disagree with her nazis.

You could be a Neo-nazi. White supremist...I'm pretty damn sure you are.

She was talking about the faith that allowed the slaves to become free. To over-turn Jim Crow, to have lynching out-lawed.

As opposed to the faith touted by Rick Perry and Michele Bachmann and Rick Santorum. The dog-whistles and scapegoats utilized by every conservative politician who want to hide behind the cross as well as the flag.

mountebank, citations, please of DonQ's hatred of everyone, including black people and asians. And do you mean to demean DonQ by referring to him as "her" and "she"? Are you a mysoginist?

Citations, please, of DonQ's hatred of everyone, including black people and asians. The burden of proof is on you.

You have made the assertion. The burden of proof is on you.

Maybe I'm late on this exchange, but Montebank seems to have been first in saying that "Donkey" (is that DonQuixokie?) is a "rage-filled stooge who hates everyone, including black people and asians." I scrolled back farther but didn't find direct commentary about black people or asians, so I have to say I think that you probably need a citation. You provided one above, but that quote has nothing to do with blacks or Asians, so I'd like to see something more specifically on point.

Plus, Don is a common title for men (and seems a play on Don Quixote, from excellent Spanish literature by Cervantes).

Children, children, children.... play nicely, please...

I consider myself an agnostic, but not because I don't believe in God. I just believe that nobody has an exclusive claim to the Truth.

I’ve never understood how God could expect His creatures to pick the one true religion by faith—it strikes me as a sloppy way to run a universe.
-Jubal Harshaw, Stranger in a Strange Land

History does not record anywhere a religion that has any rational basis. Religion is a crutch for people not strong enough to stand up to the unknown without help.
-Lazarus Long, Time Enough for Love

It is a truism that almost any sect, cult, or religion will legislate its creed into law if it acquires the political power to do so, and will follow it by suppressing opposition, subverting all education to seize early the minds of the young, and by killing, locking up, or driving underground all heretics.
-Lazarus Long, Time Enough for Love

The most preposterous notion that H. sapiens has ever dreamed up is that the Lord God of Creation, Shaper and Ruler of all the Universes, wants the saccharine adoration of His creatures, can be swayed by their prayers, and becomes petulant if He does not receive this flattery. Yet this absurd fantasy, without a shred of evidence to bolster it, pays all the expenses of the oldest, largest, and least productive industry in all history.
-Lazarus Long, Time Enough for Love

(All quotes above courtesy of Robert A. Heinlein)

Also, it might be help to distinguish between PREJUDICE and simply TO JUDGE. Many of us may precede to pre-judge (PREJUDICE) individuals based on notions of ignorance or religious views, extreme or non-extreme, etc. BUT I and many other individuals, am/are making the distinction evident that I myself/we are JUDGING Christians, and as mentioned before, Christianists-- that is on their radical behavior through condoning of the imposition of ideology and, further, direct participation. To suggest that Christianity has no history of racial, sexist, SES, or religious imposition or discrimination is to assert infallibility. Do we wish to go back to the 16th Century where in fact these views were culturally and socially acceptable in public and private domains? Additionally, we should ask whether these Tea Party fanatics are merely more than the breeders of PREJUDICE, stemming from psychological & ideological foreclosure? Many of us have reached a psychological moratorium where in which we have discovered FAITH in what it should be-- JUDGING not based on reason, but instilling the notion of intellectual and ideological humility -- making conclusions based on FACT, where sometimes even this is not possible.

I have been posting here for years. My views are well known and I gladly name myself a Hateful Bastard.

You on the otherhand, are exactly what you call yourself:

moun·te·bank/ˈmountiˌbaNGk/Noun

1. A person who deceives others, esp. in order to trick them out of their money; a charlatan.
2. A person who sold patent medicines in public places. More »
Dictionary.com - Answers.com - Merriam-Webster - The Free Dictionary

You have no business in the company of your betters.

mountebank is derailing.

Regulars know who is who. Don, bagel and hoosier are all different people. Don is definitely a he. I know this because we've had rather lengthy conversations on this board. There is a community here, people who have gotten to know each other.

Don and I have disagreed on religion, and he's never called me a nazi nor have I ever felt hated.

Notice no denial on being called a white supremist. I said he could well be one of J.T. Ready's militia ballet dance group. His thesis is that Asians were done poorly by MHP because she didn't slather public adoration on them when she told of blacks and hispanics have 1/20th the wealth of whites [thread: Can't Have Property if You Are Property.] Whereas, he said, single parenthood was to blame for the poverty of blacks and, implicitly, moral inferiority.

I called him on it, he defended Asians, did not say one word about how I said he characterized blacks - ergo, I called it right. I asked him if he was from Storm Front or J.T. Ready's Neo-nazi crew. His panties are righteously twisted because I mentioned Nazi, thereby invoking Godwin's Law...but not one word has he said about NOT being a white supremist. As posted earlier, Japan were close allies of Germany before World War 2, therefore Asians would never have counted as Mud People. Mountebank is a wanna be anarchist as well as racist. I'm sure J.T. Ready would love him. The pieces all fit, but now Mr. Anger is Energy is a victim. Comments? Questions? Full post transcipts can be found in the thread: Can't Have Property if You Are Property, as well as this one.

For an Anonymous Internet Poster of Indeterminate Gender, Don sure has gotten under your skin. It's almost amusing.

Almost.

:: clicks "Ignore This Author" ::

Don Quixokie

You know, that's the thing. The anarchist wing is already filled with the Tea Party and their representatives and they are busy as beavers dismantling civilization. That is the problem in fact. Too many wankers with wrecking bars and not enough people who know or care how to build anything. Nice screed on social injustice. It almost sounds sincere.

On the subject of swallowing camels to choke on gnats...

Just what did the statistics on Asian families have to do with wealth inequality re blacks, hispanics and whites? Oh wait I remember. You threw that out as the "Model Minority" canard which you used to underline the fact that blacks are morally inferior and get what they deserve. You attacked MHP in just those terms as well.

mountebank

Well, the Annie E. Casey Foundation gives the ratio of children living in single parent black families as a staggering 67%. Possibly I overstated it slightly.

It would be great if you would acknowledge the obvious, in babbling about slavery to explain the household wealth discrepancy and NOT EVEN touching on this obvious glaring discrepancy in white vs. black families, Perry failed massively in her analysis. Weak. She retreated in a cowardly manner from an OBVIOUS point that I'm sure she was aware of, because she was too blinkered or afraid to go there. End of story.

#33.2 - Thu Jul 28, 2011 7:06 PM CDT

Charming. Most charming. especially considering the following.

http://www.thenation.com/blog/162446/violence-and-economic-mobility-jim-crow-south

Despite your "let's all take up arms against the Man" rant, everything else you have said puts you squarely in the camp of the Tea Partiers and white supremists. What are you, a mole? A spy? You here from Storm Front? JT Ready's Neo-nazi outfift? Grow the eff up. At the rate things are going you are about to have more fun than you can handle. And personally, I hope you get eaten.

#25.3 - Fri Jul 29, 2011 10:06 PM CDT

You won't shame me. I stand by what I say even when I'm wrong. In this case, I don't think I am. And let me disabuse you of some notions. I'm 40. My parents were hippies. My great grandfather was Mexican. Both my present and my ex-wife are black, I have an aunt who is a filipina. I went to a Magnet Middle School where I was one of three white kids in my entire grade. I tested in the 97th percentile nationally and several of the black kids in my class tested about as high and nearly all had better grades. I've been to college though I have no degree, broke the grading curve in an American History class taught by a professor who had a Ph.D in Economics. I've also been to prison where the rumor on the yard was that I was in for 2nd * Murder and I decided there may be worse things than being misunderstood.
I stayed in prison longer than I had to for the opportunity to go to college on my dime, but was kicked out of both when my financial aid fell through.

Now, who the hell are you?

To make things clear, I was talking about Donkey the rage-filled stooge who hates everyone, including black people and asians.

Project much? What I was hearing from you was that it was moral inferiority that was root of the hardship faced by black families. I pointed it out to you, but instead of correcting that assumption, you doubled down on defending Asians...which had not a single goddamn thing to do with what she was talking about.

My positions on race and social justice are matters of LONG record here. I don't know what audience you think you are playing for, but I doubt you are impressing the old timers here in any way you'd be proud of. Stop while you are ahead.

Amen to that. I am far from impressed and much more progressive than this young blogger could ever hope to be!

Don Q. may be many things I'm unaware of (aren't we all kind of like that, really?). However, having read most all of his posts over the past year of so, I'm quite certain he's neither a Nazi, nor a hater of Blacks and Asians. Just my two cents....

That's Neo-Nazi. And if that's the worst you've ever been called then you really don't get out much do you? Being called a White Supremacist doen't hurt nearly as bad does it? You never rebutted that blacks and hispanics are morally inferior and too damn late if you do now. Saying that I have no sympathy for single black parents still assumes that it is moral inferiority that is the cause of their unwedded state. As should be clear by I know, I KNOW how complicated the history is and all the forces at work to destroy the black family now. Saying "well Asians do so much better and THEY are minorities - why can't blacks be more like Asians." That is beyond weak. That is precisely the false equivalence a white supremacist or Neo-Nazi would use. And just so we are clear, a Neo-Nazi is just another flavor of white supremacist. You all suck equally.

They probably decided—and quite correctly, it looks—that for other than TRMS loyal viewers, one would have to have a Master's degree to understand the segment. Or actual faith.

Carolinalady! Where's your fan??

mountebank

"Back to you. Citations, please that you and Donkey are not nazis or misogynists and that you are not jerks for slanderously accusing me of same and that believers and non-believers can "come together".

------------------------------

Just trying to "keep up".

Someone is not familiar with the Newsvine Code of Honor.

You know what, despicable donkey bitch worm, you flat out suck. I don't care how many years you've been posting here.

Moderator! Code of Honor Violation.

Who said I was angry? I know where most of the people I've interacted with stand and I love them for it, and most of them tolerate me well enough.

Ok, angry jerk, I do not think that black, hispanic, asian or any other people are inferior to whites...

You never rebutted that blacks and hispanics are morally inferior and too damn late if you do now.

You hoisted yourself on your own petard, I just held it for you. Hey, anger is energy right? You tryin' to jump start your car or something?

Word to the wise. We don't need rebels. What we need are adults. And what we don't need are people saying "well Asians do so much better and THEY are minorities - why can't blacks be more like Asians?"

Umm, Tyler, this one's for you.

When someone calls me a Nazi, I mostly just think they are being childish and lack a strong argument. Mountebank is having a full blown temper tantrum and really needs a time out.

It's an overused analogy, and thus not very effective. That's all. What you have done, Montebank, is you have derailed a thread because you were personally offended. It's really quite juvenile. As is voting up your own posts.

Didn't Godwin's Law end this fight dozens of posts ago?

and No, don't try and draw me into responding,

You know me, I'll only post jokes.

Oh, but Montebank, I was called a Nazi by you. But you know, I'm rubber, you're glue. Whatever you say bounces off me and sticks to you.

mountebank

"You could be a Neo-nazi. White supremist...I'm pretty damn sure you are."

See above blinkered fascist.

Are you illiterate, or just a stupid Nazi?

I am publically calling keep in time a NAZI, as Donkey Dork did me.

How does it feel, Nazi?

----------------------------

It doesn't ruffle me in the slightest, Mountebank, because I know nothing could be further from the truth. And my purpose of posting really wasn't to antagonize you further, though that would have been - in fact, was - ridiculously easy to do. No, I just thought a little clarification was called for at that particular time. Have to admit, though, that hasn't been at all easy with this particular thread.

Speaking of clarification, perhaps I should point out that as a Black citizen of these United States, I've seen and heard the absolute worst that you can imagine, directed at me, over the years. And yes, everyone here can see you're not the only one to possess an impressive arsenal of slanderous, hurtful adjectives and names to hurl at your perceived enemies. Whether you believe it or not, I don't feel that I am one of them.

"Forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us."

"He who exalts himself shall be humbled and he who humbles himself shall be exalted."

"If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. And if someone wants to sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well. If someone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles."

"But I say unto you which hear, Love your enemies, do good to them which hate you, bless them that curse you, and pray for them which despitefully use you."

Yes, I can certainly see how that would and did hurt you, mountebank. GrrlRomeo's advice above seems valid and right to the point, though. We're all human here, and granted, it just ain't easy. Nothing really worth having in this world ever seems to be. Peace, however, is worth the effort, and I wish nothing less for us all.

There are plenty of fascists and racists hiding behind American flags. My grandfather fought in world war 2 as well. For that I'm very proud of him. But he was also a racist son of a bitch and because of which I cut him out of my life from the time I married my first wife until he was on his death bed.

Impugn your patriotism? The Tea Party douche bags who are destroying our nation all claim to be patriots. They celebrated 2nd Amendment Day on the 15th anniversary of the murrah Federal Build bombing. Speaking of which...

You a veteran? Put your life on the line for the nation the way your father did? So did Timothy McVeigh. When he was arrested he was wearing a shirt that said:

I even tried to find common ground by bringing up Kerouac, he just referred to me as "New Jack" and said that he wanted to shiv me in the yard.

I even tried to find common ground by bringing up Kerouac, he just referred to me as "New Jack" and said that he wanted to shiv me in the yard.

What the hell are you smoking? Lead paint chips? I don't go in much for metaphor or hyperbole. But if you do, don't expect to be taken seriously. And don't expect to be taken seriously by me. Physically threatening me personally? Are you trying to be funny? And apologize to you?

I repeat what I said earlier. I hope you get eaten. If your father was in World War 2 then you should be old enough to know better unless either he had you REAL late in life or you are too simple to help yourself. In which case...my condolences. I'll send you a fruit basket.

I will say that if christians actually adhered to the teachings of Christ we would be way better off.

Probably. But the person who said this (mountebank) can't show any kind of forgiveness, grace or mercy. And that's what's wrong. People know what would be better, what would make a better world, but they cannot seem to bring themselves to do it. They can tell others what's right, but cannot themselves do what it takes. That's the problem with ego, eh?

Be the change you want to see.

Don's at it again! But, par for the course!

Just a bitter unemployed ex-con, who can't climb his way out of a hole (but was the smartest kid in school and in his cell block). Has all the answers but everyone no one in his real life cares to listen. Uses name calling to get some response to his posts, since most of it is just hate-spewing, race baiting, or delusional rants.

Just proof of what too much paint sniffing gets you!

To some who were confident of their own righteousness and looked down on everybody else, Jesus told this parable: “Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. The Pharisee stood up and prayed about himself: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other men—robbers, evildoers, adulterers—or even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.’

“But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, ‘God, have mercy on me, a sinner.’

“I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted.

Like I said, it's not Christianity I have a problem with. It's people who declare themselves Christian and don't even understand what Jesus taught.

What I have a problem with is Atheists who quote scriptures. The don't believe in God but want to quote the bible!!!

Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as you are.

There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. For God does not show favoritism.

All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.)

What is a religion if you don't practice it? Nothing. Pointless.

If you actually believed in God and believed in the Bible, then you must believe God will judge you for what you say. Samaritans were scorned, and yet Jesus said the Samaritan is your neighbor.

Atheists are also your neighbor.

mountebank is banned for a day however, I see Katy is back with the same hate filled spew she always has and always gets away with here.

Katy, you are ignorant about atheists.

Two words more than you needed Bexa.

That's really disturbing...she gets away with it again!!!

Montebank, you're not supposed to create multiple accounts. Especially for circumventing a suspension.

MODERATOR!!!

Permanent ban for this one...lol what a ______________. Fill it in.

Newsvine is a privately owned entity. And privately owned entities can create their own rules of conduct in striving towards a particular goal. And Newsvine's goal is an atmosphere of civil discussion.

I love that this POS quoted Katy, they belong together...

Neither of them adhere to the CoH...one is obvious...the other...like a snake in the grass that skirts the edge.

This is a re reg of a re reg...I'd bet...and will go on and on after being banned.

That will be back *looks at watch*

Sudden Flamewar Combo-Breaker.

Random Trivia Interlude

Honey is the only food that does not spoil. Honey found in the tombs of Egyptian pharaohs has been tasted by archaeologists and found edible.

The king of hearts is the only king without a moustache on a standard playing card.

The hummingbird is the only bird that can fly backwards.

This one actually should seek psychiatric help.

Something is rotten in Maddowblog. I smell a re re reg.

MODERATOR!

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Sally

He registered on another account.

Sterling behavior from someone who's FATHER fought on D-Day. Katy, you really know how to pick your friends.

Thanks Vox! Here's a riddle for you:

"As I sit on my ass, on the ass of my ass, the following paradox strikes me: Half of my ass is in front of my ass, while the whole of my ass is behind me!"

What am I doing?

Riding a donkey.

Yay!

I know, it wasn't hard, but I got to say ass a lot!

Riding a Donkey facing backwards...which just has to be a political metaphor for something ;)

A farmer's donkey dies. He's is using a post-holer to get the donkey's grave started. While he is about this, his minister walks by.

"Making a post hole for a fence are you?"

The farmer says "rightly speaking, I don't think that's what they would have called it in the bible."

DON'T give the correct answer. You will just get in trouble.

Okay, can I just laugh really hard instead?

Don't hurt yourself!

Mountebank-Mountebank Superstar-Fighting Fascism just broke the land/speed record for getting banned. I salute you sir, never a finer performance of sheer douchebaggery have I ever seen!

I wouldn't say that was ALWAYS true. Making such a claim is almost as arrogant.

I believe in a Divine Power. I also believe that every one of us has a spark of that Divine Power within; the problems arise when one of us hears that spark and mistakes it for the Voice of God. In ancient days, that man was considered a prophet; nowadays, he'd be labeled a schizophrenic...

I don't think schizophrenic is quite the proper word, since premonitions come from psychic experiences. There is something going on with these psychic experiences and people who have these are too aware of the limits and circumstances that arise. Which leads to this revelations in the bible, people keep trying to interpret these scriptures and saying what will happen. Well I can say with great accuracy they will be wrong, since if someone is going to do such evil in this world would they do it exactly the way someone said it to be, NOT.

if we all have the divine power from within and can hear from that divine power, isn't it the voice of divine?

alpha and omega...positive and negative....summer and winter...day and night...all encompass divine...which is god..

Actually, Carrie-Anne it is, just as over 50 some people tried to stop 911 from happening. But some were told that we would not be able to stop it, because the powers to be are corrupt, power craving, arrogant, hypocrites, greedy, and deceivers. And that was when Bush, Chenney, the Republicans, and certain rich people took control and even 10 years later, we are seeing the worsening corruption they have been doing. Actually, the divine power than is very correct, because some people experienced it through the light. So as far as justice for those victims of 911, well the numbers of the victims keeps going up and we will be lucky we ever get true justice about it all. Also, here is another question, if God didn't care about homosexuals and condemns homosexuals, then why would God have homosexuals that are out there that tried to stop 911.

divine is through the light as well as through the dark.

Doubt is chasitity of the mind.

Roger Zelazny, Lord of Light.

Vox, I'm an agnostic, yet when the chips are down and I'm terrified or anxious about the health or well-being of someone in my family - I petition St.Jude, God, Jesus, and all the benevolent Lords of the Universe for help.

I just know my words are "out there" in the Universe and that gives me some succor to tide me over during the dark days.

I also believe that when I ask for help from the Unknown, I'm actually opening up myself to myself, reaching some part of my own mind for a solution to the problem. And very frequently, an answer comes. Perhaps that is God speaking to me, or that Divine Wisdom is buried somewhere within myself that is answering.

As an agnostic, I just do not know.

agreed, joybar...

But you could also argue that this faith in people is being used for profit by these big companies like Goldman Sachs and these banks. Adjustable rate loans are a form of people putting their faith in other people and it ending up screwing a lot of people out of homes and a lot of money

While I agree that we need faith in other people, I think we need these people to show us that they deserve our faith

Corporations aren't people. They're made up of people, but the way they're organized, no one is really accountable for what the organization does.

And anyway, I didn't say people should have blind faith.

I find that any time the word "faith" is used we get into some very messy semantics. Rational arguments can be made that the "faith" in a religious context is a very different element than the "faith" in an intangible concept like justice. Though generally speaking the word means to have belief in something with no proof. That's why we intertwine religion with other abstract ideas unnecessarily. Maybe we need a new word for faith specifically referring to the subcategory of religion. Any ideas?

Precisely, Jazz. Faith, virtue, hope, love, humility—and their polarities, with every shade in-between—are inherent in humanity and irrespective of religious tradition or institution. I would not want to separate the spirit from the body anymore than I would 'faith' from politics. Though we may not all agree that we have a spirit and soul animating the tangible physical body, I do believe most subscribe to or at least idealize a set of 'spiritual'—or shall we say, 'incorporeal'—values universal to all as the bedrock of conduct in any arena of life.

Can we not substitute 'spirit' for 'religion' as the unknown that informs our lives, which we can have 'faith' in to fuel our vision for a better world?

Even better, let's 'smart up' America and use lingo from quantum physics. The Obaminator can handle that, I'm sure. Can the GOP?

If the GOP wants to keep faith in the domain of religion, inseparable from politics, then they must also lay claim to hate and bigotry, as well. And looking at current affairs, that's not too far off the mark... Anders Breivik is yours. TAKE THAT TO HEART. ER, FAITH.

Yes GrrrlRomeo...you describe my "religion" as well. My god is humanity in it's purest form. Thank you.

Carol Ann: Hear Hear! I completely agree. I think she would make so much better a host, in the MSNBC line up than lets say ... err ... Al Sharpton. By the way - can anyone remember the name of the other young woman who used to fill in for Rachel int he earlier days of her hosting on MSNBC. As I recall, Rachel and her used to work together on Air America but that's about all I think I do remember. So does anyone know who I am talking about?

Anna Marie Cox!

Ana Marie Cox only filled in once. Maybe you're thinking of Alison Stewart.

Alison Stewart hosted NPR's Bryant Park Project but I do not recall that she was associated with Air America. Alison guest-hosted TRMS a number of times. Ana Marie Cox did work at Air America but as Grrrl said, was not a frequent TRMS guest host. So I guess you are on your own, @Pissywoman.

It was indeed Alison Stewart, wife of Bill Wolff, exec producer of TRMS, and they have one of the cutest little boys I've ever seen.

Other hosts have been Ana Marie Cox, Bill Wolff and Howard Dean. Her most frequent guest host is Chris Hayes, Washington editor of The Nation.

As much as I would love for Melissa Harris-Perry to guest host frequently, she won't be available between mid-August and the end of May. School starts and she'll be doing her professor duties at Tulane University in New Orleans.

The one who was forced to touch Howard Stern's butt while at MTV news and former co-host of World News Now with Anderson Cooper. Who is this Bill Wolff you speak of? I'm kidding of course. I've just always liked Alison Stewart. I freely admit that I watched MTV's 1992 election coverage more than any other network. Alison Stewart and Tabitha Soren rocked it.

I am quite mysteried you missed the whole point. Melissa did not say faith in the magical, a deity if you will. She said faith in the vision of something bigger that us, our immediate circumstances, is possible. I would caution that faith is a double edge sword and can also be wielded in immoral and unethical possibilities. Keeping them all positive, toil and faith are key ingredients for our progress.

If I didn't have 'faith', I would've f*cked this very unreal world a long, long time ago. Many famous scientists, politicians, inventors, philosophers, visionaries, etc. are inspired by the unseen, more 'real' than the world before our eyes. Though they may not always admit it.

Mike, I disagree that MHP's segment re: faith and politics isn't a relevant topic. Have you been paying attention to the espousal's of Bachmann, Beck, and the like? Their faith is all over their politics.

What I heard from MHP, and what I appreciated, is an attempt to reclaim faith and the way some of us view faith in relation to all aspects of our lives. She expresses another way to view the connection between faith and politics, one that isn't so dogmatic, vitriolic, or polarizing.

She talked about faith in something bigger than ourselves being a source of hope, especially in circumstances where these's very little hope. This may not be a source of hope for everyone, but as she acknowledged, she looked into the relevance of faith after studying Black culture in the US and found faith to be a non-quantifiable reality for the Black slaves who suffered much.

To MHP, I say "Amen!" and thank you for helping to reclaim a different view of faith.

Melissa did not say faith in the magical, a deity if you will. She said faith in the vision of something bigger that us, our immediate circumstances, is possible. I would caution that faith is a double edge sword and can also be wielded in immoral and unethical possibilities. Keeping them all positive, toil and faith are key ingredients for our progress.

Funny, but I agree with you and MHP...

I knew it had to happen. Once that silly Christmas movie with Tim Allen came out, people would start to forget how to spell "Santa Claus". (no -e) Hint: the movie title is a pun, based on a homonym. a Claus is Santa; a Clause is a legal requirement un a contract. The Santa Clause in the movie isn't the character played by Tim Allen; it's the hidden legal clause on the ID card Scott Calvin finds that forces him to become Santa...

Actually, the name Santa Claus was itself started as a mis-spelling, of the Christian Saint Nikolas, reputedly an old man who enjoyed giving gifts to children of the town he lived in to emulate the Wise Men of the Christmas story.

Of course, nowadays, he'd be locked up as a pedophile...

... not to mention, indoctrinating children in a Socialist agenda, breaking and entering, and I'm sure there's some FAA regulations about filing flight plans and illegal fuel emissions (all that reindeer crap...)

sooo true, david!

Here, here! I agree. Melissa, you are to date by far the best guest host Rachel has ever had.

You mesmerize me as much as Rachel does, but in your own way with your own quite different intellectual and debate skills.

I hope you can guest host for Rachel more often, but I know you have an extremely full plate. Maybe they can set you up to host from New Orleans once in awhile???

Thanks for a great week!

I also think your segment on faith was fascinating, appropriate, and I'm sorry it was cut from the broadcast. I'm glad you recorded it for us.

I really enjoyed your perspective and thoughts. They were refreshing. Other than Al Sharpton, I believe you are the only other minister to anchor on MSNBC.

If Christ came back today and took a good look at christianity, he would be shocked and ashamed by how his teachings have been perverted.

Still I have to wonder about the ego of anyone who encourages followers, for whatever reason.

If Christ came back, the "Christians would be climbing over eachother to knock the nails back in again and would double tap him in the head when he rises on the 3rd day for being such a filthy commie socialist and enemy of capitalism. All of which are the reasons I would stand by his side.

"With or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil—that takes religion." -- Steven Weinberg

Btw, I'd include Communism and Fascism under the category of religions.

insincere

mountebank - Why are you trolling people who are participating in decent, intelligent conversation? You obviously have nothing of import to introduce, only challenges aimed at distruption.

bb - I agree, believer or non-believer can come together with a common interest and a faith that joint effort can overcome an obstacle. That is how America was built and the only way it will survive.

I thought the MHP segment was great.

I invite any investigation as to whether or not I have multiple accounts. You, sir, do not know me and do not know us as a community. But we are knowing you far better than we care to.

Hear, hear. I stand with DQ!!

Before she died of Alzheimer's, my mother would ask me to take her to church on Sundays. I was glad to do so. However, when she asked me to sing the hymns with her so she could follow along - she was very hard of hearing - I couldn't do it. To my mind, singing hymns of praise to someone I didn't believe in would be rank hypocrisy, and I just couldb't force myself to be that dishonest...

Ask the moderators. Do your own damn homework for a change.

@mountebank, I wish you'd stop this nonsense. You're skewing my data on tolerance and defensiveness, and the majority of input (especially from undetermined personal beliefs) are leaning me towards faith in humanity.

I feel I can say,"You're being a jerk." with retained objectivity.

Tell me monte, would YOU want someone in your house who is acting the way you are?

Directed to mountebank - Where are the site moderators when we really need them? I have never seen so much trolling allowed by one person on this site. It is reprehensible behavior by someone who is adult enough to be allowed at the keyboard of a computer.

*ahem*

flag that user, kelly.

One of many I would think. Strange to come out so strong in a few days after being silent since Dec of '10. My guess would be there is more than just this account.

mountebank has no respect for anyone and hopefully will be banned forever upon return.

Thanks Sally.

If you think it's bad here, Sally, you should see some of mountebank's other posts in this section. #justsayin

And Katy only gets a slap on the wrist for,

Just a bitter unemployed ex-con, who can't climb his way out of a hole

and

Just proof of what too much paint sniffing gets you!

What message does this send us? We can sort of get away with insulting people as long as we don't say they are crappy? I think it's worse than "@!$%# you" and you get a week for that.

*disappointed....

It took me getting banned several times to work my way up to half a month. You also notice that you never see hatey around anymore. The moderators patience isn't endless. Thank God.

hate was banned forever...and he deserved it. I just don't get that this obvious troll doesn't get what she deserves.

Well if it isn't Katy the resident Pharisee who knows less about the New Testament than I do about country music, yet deems herself a spiritual authority. Trust she would be first in line to drink up whatever burnt almond Flavoraid Rick Perry wants to pass off as the blood of Jesus.

Good one Don...where's that puke bucket? I dunno how she gets away with it...but she does...we are missing something here I think.

My mother always quoted the Golden Rule (Do unto others as you would have others do unto you) ever since I was old enough to understand words.

To me, that one sentence is really the only true Religion.

BTW, I didn't notice that MHP had a lisp. Am I the only one who didn't? I have always enjoyed her when Rachel had her as a guest, and she was great as this weeks Hostess.

With all due respect, I got something totally different than you did from this segment. I do not recall references of the need to believe in the bible and it's crazy ideas. I got that faith = belief in the good in others. The belief = hope and hope can = a movement. This is what I got from this segment in the most simplistic terms. I respect everything that was said by Mrs. Harris-Perry and I do not believe in a god.

Ohhhhhh, yeah :)

Have you watched the first few episodes of the Ed show when it started? Anyone needing to speak from a teleprompter and script will frequently stumble in enunciation, cadence, and delivery until they get the hang of it. Even Dylan Ratigan you can tell speaks too fast for the scrolling teleprompter and must frequently pause or slow down his recitation in order to wait for the teleprompter to catch up.

As for the lisp? Who cares, get over it. If it's that much of a distraction read the transcripts - the messages are the same.

anyone with a lisp grabs my attention in wanting to go through all the lessons of speech therapy - since i did about 6 grades of it. when nervous or rushed too far, i hammer, stutter and my twisty tongue say all sorts of new words you'll never find in any dictionary, with a lisp or course.

by the way, melissa is very intelligent - i love when we can see a angle, such as a 'black' one, or a 'gay' one, because it brings people into a new angle that they would never get a chance to see.

@Grumblecakes, sometimes we have to see past imperfections to observe fully. Your focus on Professor Harris-Perry's lisp and occasional misreading of the teleprompter may have prevented you from truly appreciating her message. For that, I am truly sorry.

Her delivery is measured and imbues the medium with a calm that I like, but find to be rare on cable television. I suspect her delivery has been honed in innumerable classroom lectures at the University of Chicago and at Princeton. I would count the Tulane students lucky who will be in her fall classes this year.

Who cares about her grasp of the technical skills needed to read a telemprompter...She has the intellect and study to present a topic in a full and rich historical context - to parse something for ease of understanding to an audience. I find it amusing/insulting that you see her bringing up the slavery example as a "black" angle. What is wrong with that angle? It was a perfect example of her point on faith. We all come from different, storied backgrounds and experiences. We all tap into our own stories and experiences to communicate. Why should slavery be exempt from the dialogue due to it being a "black" issue. It was reality and part of history and Mrs. Harris-Perry knows enough of the topic to inject it into a conversation to make a more global point. To reduce it to a "black" angle is disingenuous at best and quite insulting at worst.

Its not much of surprise at all. She had studied it extensively, taught it extensively. It was problably her strongest strength so it was the basis on which she referenced everything else. No shame in that. Slavery as an instutition still deeply impacts our society especially the African American community. After the slaves were freed, they were never welcomed with open arms and instantly assimilated. The statistics and the plights of black families give lie to so many things we want to believe about America. But when it is pointed out, far too many - like monte - say "Well Asians are a minority, if Asians can do good, why can't blacks?" All it comes down to is the fact that until we do right as a nation by blacks, by immigrants, by Muslims, by the poor, the under-served, we won't do right as a nation. Nor should we. Really, what WOULD Jesus do?

You forgot Christians!

Blacks in the US are the only group that I know of that has a whole industry built around ensuring that they stay victims! Leaders of the NAACP aren't exactly hurting for cash, are they? There is a whole money machine alive and well in the US that only thrives if black people feel like victims. It is truly disgusting. Can anyone say democratic party??

Okay, not going to get all angry and do a point for point breakdown on how wrong that is. Just going to say that as far as stupidity goes that's an achievement.

If we're going to throw out crazy racial conspiracy theories out there, I could accuse the Republican party of being an industry built solely around making white anglo-saxon protestant males, the most privileged class of people on earth, feel like they are victims, like they are threatened.

Hence the right wing nuts like Glenn Beck throwing out conspiracy theories about New Black Panthers, The Homosexual Agenda and A War on Christmas.

I'll be surprised again if they let her get away with this. I do not see a connection per usual.

Right Katy. The moral inferiority of blacks. The one thing you and monte are in absolute agreement on. The thing that prompted me to ask him if he was a member of a white supremacist group or maybe J.T. Ready's Neo-Nazi dance troupe. That is why he so busy bawling about what a victim he his now.

Well Don, as it turns out Katy is not a true Christian. She stated that none of us will know if there is a God until we die....oh ye of little faith...

I called no one morally inferior, those were your words! I feel like they are being enslaved again by certain people who profit from their suffering. We just don't agree on who the real slave masters are!

do you really think the democrats want blacks to stay a victim?

democrats have voted on so many agendas trying to ensure they get every opportunity to reach their dreams - with good reason being that plenty of folks still overlook ability as soon as they see something that isn't quite white - be it name or looks.

i really think people need to look outside of their boxed in party affiliation. corporate power is doing most of that bidding in wanting that suppression - along with racist.....

racists exist within any party - but corporate power are the ones who do the most profit in keeping people as victims.

It's the rape whistle argument. The makers of rape whistles started out wanting to prevent rape, but now they don't want to decrease rape at all because if the rape rate declines they'll see a subsequent drop in whistle sales.

Wait, no, that's not a logical argument, that was a joke from a stand-up routine.

Katy264

You forgot Christians!

Blacks in the US are the only group that I know of that has a whole industry built around ensuring that they stay victims! Leaders of the NAACP aren't exactly hurting for cash, are they? There is a whole money machine alive and well in the US that only thrives if black people feel like victims. It is truly disgusting. Can anyone say democratic party??

------------------------

I really have tried, but I just can't hold it in any longer. Katy264, your posts make it clear you know absolutely NOTHING of Black people or their current situation, and apparently you've conveniently forgotten that the ENTIRE United States once had a vested interest in "ensuring that they stay victims".

I have to say, your posts very often exude a hatefulness that is extremely disturbing each and every time you click "post comment", and I'm truly baffled as to why you're even here. I'm asking you to please tell us, in all seriousness - what about your own life is so horrible that you simply MUST always look down on, or talk down to, someone else? I get the feeling you enjoy being mean. Am I wrong about that?

I called no one morally inferior, those were your words! I feel like they are being enslaved again by certain people who profit from their suffering. We just don't agree on who the real slave masters are!

Like the prison industrial complex. Like right wing politicians who use black folks to scare voters into supporting them. Like the politicians who use use the dog whistle of reverse discrimination to tap into the energy of the Angry White Male vote. Like talking heads like Limbaugh and politicians like Reagan (did) use the myth of the welfare queen as a bogey man to support the gutting of the social safety net. Guess what, ain't ain't just blacks who are needing public assistance or unemployment insurance. Or public education.

And you've been on record as saying that blacks don't value education so public education needs to be abolished. Over four white kids go to public schools for every black child. But don't let that get in the way of recycling a Reagan talking point. I also don't need to reiterate my own experiences going to a very predominantly black middle school. I.e. several of the kids tested about as high as I did and nearly all had better grades. No, that would be INCONVENIENT to acknowledge that wouldn't it?

So you are saying that the slavemasters of the blacks are the ones who say that it is wrong for black folks to go hungry? For black kids to be uneducated? Really?

"Well why don't they find work like real REAL Americans?"

Why don't they bring jobs back from overseas and reopen the factories that the blacks left the farms they were sharecropping in to go work at? Why aren't the unions there to provide them with health care and security and a pension when they are too old to work? They did for the generation that fought in WW2, and yes - blacks benefited from the economic expansion after WW2 and had pensions.

I think she only posts here when she's off her meds.

Katy264, your posts make it clear you know absolutely NOTHING...

keepintime, you really could have stopped there...:)

I hope Katy is enjoying her time off...

I believe you are confused between faith and religious believe. See definition of faith below:

1. confidence or trust in a person or thing.

2. belief that is not based on proof.

If you have given up faith, you have then given up hope because hope is to desire without any expectation of fulfillment (faith).

When she speaks of "faith," she specifically refers to religious belief, if not any specific belief, thus Diane's use of the word is appropriate. MHP herself is trying to conflate these two senses of the word "faith" in order to make an apologist point.

@Justin, I don't buy your comment one bit. Dr. Harris-Perry is a Unitarian Minister, among her plethora of other intellectual pursuits.

Most traditional Christians I know think Unitarians are not only going to hell, we'll be driving the bus. We believe in faith as hope of something bigger than ourselves. To some that is God, to others it is something else; maybe the Giant Spaghetti Monster or gravity, for example. The universe itself proves there is something bigger than each of us.

A friend of mine told her mother she was a lesbian at 18, and it was no big deal. When she told her mother she was converting from Catholic to Unitarian, she was almost disowned.

MHP is one of the least likely people to conflate religious faith with ordinary faith and hope. Her point was not apologist either.

Agree.

ahhhh, ok....i was told by my son's very religious grandparents, and father, that i should try a unitarian church. ha! no f'en wonder!

oh that made my night :)