FBI defines rape: “The penetration, no matter how slight, of the vagina or anus with any body part or object, or oral penetration by a sex organ of another person, without the consent of the victim.”

Most of the time when women want to have an abortion it is because consensual intercourse has taken place. Both acts are right to choose. The second is murder. If a woman has intercourse from free will then she should be able to survive a simple ultrasound which is painless and performed by a woman. So are you also going to condemn the sonographer as a rapist? Instead of jumping on a soap box to protect womans rights, try thinking logically to the woman in a crisis pregnancy, why is there so few jumping up to protect human life? I'm a bit galled by the "outrage" being focused at the wrong people. Keep in mind that some women use abortion as birth control. All women are not raped or molested that want abortions. 90% of women that want abortions wanted the sexual interlude but not the products of conception that go along with both choices.

Where's that 90% figure coming from? Do you currently work at a hospital or rape crisis center? Do you work at a women's clinic? Have you ever had a "bad" experience at the hospital or at a doctor's office?

My sense from your reply is that you might not have the experience needed nor the actual facts to back up your statement.

Forcing women to have any procedure in a vulnerable place and during a difficult time in their lives is wrong.

I respect that you feel abortion is wrong. It would seem that respecting life should be extended to all life. All. Life.

This makes your arguments sound hypocritical.

Now I am a hypocritical rapist. I hope you are not judged as harshly as you have judged me when your time on earth (that your mother chose to give you) is complete.

I have posted my credentials and experience for you in another segment on this page. If you know how to scroll then please take the time and look for this post. I consider myself an authority on ultrasounds and women. What are your credentials and experience to have the opinion that you have?

try thinking logically

Doctor, heal thyself.

way to take the time to type a paragraph telling someone to scroll down the page instead of just answering a question.
So, if your mythical "facts" are true and based in some reality, what about the 10% of women that are raped, and are forced to do this? Their lives aren't as sacred cause they're in the minority, and it would inconvenience your belief system?

Very Wise!

No, All.Life, you're just an a$$hole. First of all, abortion is self defense, not murder. Second, no one, at all, uses abortion as birth control. That's a lie. When it's your uterus, then you get to decide. Until then, STFU!

I'm a woman who has had to experience an abortion out of medical necessity. And I can tell you from personal experience that even 2 forms of birth control used simultaneously are not 100% effective. Maybe your personal experience is different if you happen to know a number of serial abortion-seekers, but I can also tell you that this is not a procedure that any woman I know would use as casual birth control after having one. A pill or a diaphragm or a condom are MUCH easier - physically, mentally and emotionally. Better yet, ask an ob/gyn who knows about women having abortions how many of them repeat the procedure. The myth of the poor welfare queen/trailer trash who casually uses abortion because she's too lazy for birth control is just that: a myth perpetuated by people like Bob McDonnell.

All life is precious: Agreed. Please understand the use of "you" as a generic term for those who are so avidly for this law.

All life is precious and so, if you are determined to force your will on a woman (for your reasons) without regard to her decision (for her reasons that you don't know), how are you honoring life? You are not honoring her life. You are not honoring her right to tend to her own body and be responsible for her own decisions. You are forcing her to go through a pregnancy that for whatever her considered reasons are, is untenable. If you force that woman (against her will) to continue that pregnancy, are you also willing to provide support for that child to it's maturity?

If you are going to force this woman to carry this child to term, are you also going to enact a law that the father must provide for her healthy baby program and continued survival until the child reaches maturity? Are you also going to force this man that impregnated a woman (with or without her concent) to go through a vasectomy to ensure our society of not discriminating against a woman for an act that required two people to perform? When this law is non-discriminatory towards women only, it may be passable, but it will be strictly disgusting for a sectarian government to force any human being to house a child that she cannot afford within her body for 9 months that she cannot support, cannot survive, or cannot love (due to rape or incest). They do this kind of law in Communist China!! Since when did the United States of America emulate Communistic practice?

If you do feel that "All life is precious" then as a human being who reveres life, it would be incumbent on you to also protect the lives of the men and women we send overseas to give their lives for our country. As a compassionate person you should be more than willing to pay for their funerals, their health care and their ability to come home to a job that pays a living wage. As such you should be more than willing to pay the taxes necessary to help that person and stand up and fight as strongly for that persons life as you do for this discriminatory law.

If you do feel that "All life is precious" then as a human being who reveres life, it would be incumbent on you to also protect the livlihood and survival of the poor, the disabled, the elderly and the unemployed to survive until the good Lord calls them home. This of course means that as you cannot individually provide for all those people yourself, you should in your compassion for life be more than willing to not only provide them with necessary medical care, food, clothing and the pursuit of happiness by calling on our government to ensure the needs of those people, but also to stand up and advocate for them as strongly as you as you are fighting to intrude on a womans right to make decisions for her own life and body.

If you do feel that "all life is precious" then it should be incumbent upon you in all your compassion for life to fight to end the death sentences in our country. It is too easy in this country to convict an innocent person of a crime they didn't commit, for us to rely on our justice system to determine the life or death of a living human being. If you truly feel "all life is precious" you should be leading the fight to do away with the government killing people at its discretion.

If you truly feel that "all life is precious" how can you excuse your fellow protestors from bombing buildings that may have people in them, murdering doctors that are performing legal procedures, and threatening people who provide necessary services to women in distress? Why aren't you holding such violence up for shame and ridicule? Or doesn't your "all life is precious" go that far?

Since you feel that "all life is precious" why aren't you out there demanding the corporations of this country to protect our earth and end their contamination of our air, our water, our land and our safety? Why aren't you leading the fight for the environmental protections our earth needs from humanity?

See, telling the world that the reason you are for forcing a woman to have a baby she cannot carry for her reasons, is because you feel that "All life is precious" carries a lot more committment that these people are willing to make. If you cannot live up to that committment to life, then your "reason" for supporting this law is because you

1) hate women and want to reduce them to a second class citizen status and/or

2) you want these women to be punished for having sex with a man (who you excuse totally from the results of his actions) and/or

3) you are so hell bent on having power over others that you cannot keep your nose in your own business,

which really takes your excuse that all life is precious simply a nice sounding excuse for your real reasons.

Think it over.

Grandma you are a blessing. The only time they really value life if it is in fetal form.

Grama, you are much nicer than I am. Alllife can think whatever he wants, I could care less. It is NOT his business. Most pregnancies don't make it to birth because of spontaneous miscarriages anyway, and I for one don't believe abortion is murder. Why don't all you anti-women/choice people go out and live the values you want to force on everybody else? We do notice what you say, and how hypocritical it is to want to control the most intimate decisions a woman can make, then go on and not give a crap when kids are born into poverty, etc and all you do is whine about money. Butt out and mind YOUR OWN business.

Same here lib.

If All.Life is correct (and I doubt he is), then God must be the most prolific abortionist in all of creation. Isn't a miscarriage also called a 'spontaneous abortion'? A doctor is supposed to know this sort of thing, right?

'spontaneous abortion'

Yes, also 'missed abortion'. At least that is what the Doc called it when I had a miscarriage.

You are absolutely right. This is RAPE and it needs to be called that. I cash;'t imagine how a woman would feel to have this forced upon her. This is so wrong!

You are absolutely right. This is RAPE and it needs to be called that. I can just imagine how a woman would feel to have this procedure forced upon her. I also cannot believe that women voted for this.

Agreed. It's rape and making light with "commemorative" rapists' tools is too nasty to be believed.

FANSWATS! Bad on you Virginia and TRMS!!

FWIW, I see it as extremely dark humor, not making light of the situation, as it were.

I agree. Any penetration of a woman's body again her will is rape. And I have had a vaginal ultrasound for medical reasons. It is not pleasant. It hurt.

Irony: the virgin state being "raped" by its Republican, male-dominated state legislature. Where I was raised, the definition of rape was all about vaginal penetration without a woman or girl's consent. THAT is what Virginia's new law making human life begin at conception does. Requiring any person seeking an abortion to undergo a legally required, vaginal ultrasound before an abortion may be performed, in ALL cases, even "rape or incest" induced pregnancies. The kicker is "whether she consents or not." This law grants privileges to a fetal life form not given to the woman wherein the life form exists. THAT IS JUST CRAZY! Men, who do fear this power of women to give birth or deny it, are making this law to suit only themselves. The truly sad part is the total lack of communication that would have a man and woman intimate enough to conceive a life, but unable to come to terms with whether that life should proceed. "SHE, the devil incarnate, should not be able to legally kill my baby," say such men.

A few years ago, in Rumania, a government-approved program for increasing population not only outlawed abortion, it encouraged military men to impregnate as many women as they could. The rape victims were literally physically forced to give birth; most abandoned their progeny at the "clinic" or hospital where born. These idiotic woman-abominating laws should never happen in this nation. The true rapists are those who voted for this or plan to vote for similar laws in other states.

(I'm not sure how a fetus votes, or how anyone besides the mother has any custody, but that's another issue.)

Ironically the female repugnican who put forth this version of STATE SANCTIONED RAPE actually had the nerve to say that "women were already submitting to an invasive procedure (the abortion) so they shouldn't mind the trans-vaginal ultrasound at all".

While pertinent the forced information really isn't the point. The biggest problem with this law is that it is STATE SANCTIONED RAPE. This law forces a woman to submit to vaginal penetration by a foreign object against her will in order to receive the LEGAL ABORTION she is seeking.

He plays basketball not baseball.

Just a mis-type. Most folks would have realized that, as the Knicks is not a baseball team.... as far as I am aware.

Words used which would have indicated that it was a mis- type....

Knicks,

Arena,

NBA

and maybe....Harvard.

Lin was wearing a Harvard pullover, T, whatev.

Peace....

I don't understand it, either. For some reason everyone was happy to get up in arms over the Komen Foundation/Planned Parenthood insult but they don't even seem to want to touch this. This perversion of justice being carried out in the State of Virginia against women seeking legal procedures is nothing less than STATE SANCTIONED RAPE and needs to be attacked as such. If women everywhere aren't as outraged as I am by this - and I happen to live in Virginia! - then we have much bigger problems than I previously thought!

Not the first state to inroduce or implement this law. Hmnn Good with sports though.

Uuuuuugh!! That's much worse than a rectal exam for the prostate if a guy wants Viagra.

Please get that as an amendment.

This is only fair if men are required to have a rectal and utethra probe in order to get a prescription for viagra. In addition, they should be prescribed a prescription for condoms, with a warning label that says "not responsible for breakage" AND a federal law should be passed that fines any man that impregnates a woman for the estimated dollar amount of raising a child from birth to adulthood, they don't have to stick around to raise it, but they sure do have to pay to play. Bet the incidence of vasectomy would go way up...REALLY?, AS AMERICANS ARE WE THIS STUPID? IF these people are elected then we deserve this idiocy.

Funny enough, an amendment to this legislation was actually proposed to force men seeking Viagra or similar prescriptions to undergo prostate exams and heart health screenings in order to protect their health in the same way this insane STATE SANCTIONED RAPE was passed off. Wouldn't you know it was struck down...

No woman would have to have a medical abortion without a vaginal ultrasound. That would be malpractice. Google

If it were bending over they were talking about those Virginia boys would be howling. Since this requires one lay down and take it, hell they think they're entitled. The question really is will they fight back or remain prone!

We in Virginia will bend over and grab our ankles. We always do. We eleceted Bob McDonnell in spite of his college thesis, which has been a blueprint for his Governor's term. We kicked out and killed the Democrat party, Even the Democrats who still have office, Like Warner are rabid republicans.

They call Illinois the most corrupt political system in the USA -but that's only because what is illegal in politics in Illinois has all been made legal in Virginia.

Unlimited donations, contracts to supportersthat mirror donations, our politicians are however "honest" -once they sell their services, they stay bought, right to the bitter end, Because the Newspapers here and most media outlets are owned and operated by the supporters of laws like the one under discussion here.

Shame no one from the Government ever checks the electronic voting machines during the process, because it seems, despite a lot of folks saying one thing on places like this, go out and vote for the people who put such laws in place. Or do they? Just sayin'.

We Virginians will bend over, grab our ankles and smile. We always do.

We elected Bob McDonnell despite his college thesis which has been his blueprint. Of course he promised he was a change man -(snicker)

We destroyed the Democrat party in Virginia, and those Democrats. like Warner are Rabidly republican.

We elect politicians who in Illinois would be incarcerated, but have no fear of jail here because what is illegal in Illinois is perfectly legal here.

No Newspaper will oppose a GOP request because they are all owned and operated by GOP supporters.

We have used eletronic voting since the Bush era, and everyone knows they never need checking, never need a paper trail.

We elect them. Or do we?

What? 2012? Time to pull 'em down, and bend over again? Already? SirYES SIR!

By definition it is forced penetration or RAPE.

with authority i can say that an vaginal ultra sound is less invasive than a normal pelvic exam.

My recollection of the definition of "invasive" as it applies to medical procedures is that procedures requiring entry into the body are termed "invasive". I really don't understand how one can call the introduction of a probe into the vagina "less invasive" than any other procedure where items--speculum, doctor's fingers, light source, specimen scrapers, any other instrument that reaches as far as the cervix, for example--are inserted into the vagina. I do not mean to undermine your authority, but perhaps you can help us understand the difference.

If by "less invasive" you mean "less uncomfortable" then that is a matter of opinion and open to interpretation. I've had both and can say with my own personal authority governing my own personal opinion, that a vaginal ultrasound was very uncomfortable, lasted longer (in my case) than a normal pelvic exam, probed and penetrated my vagina with stronger pressure than a normal pelvic exam. The navigation of the vaginal probe and the ease with which the sonographer guides it is dependent upon the experience of the sonographer and the intended purpose of the exam. The length of the exam and the direction in which the probe is manipulated depends on the anatomy that they are trying to see. In my case, there were questionable lesions on and around my ovaries and they were having difficulty obtaining images of diagnostic quality. Maybe the procedure is different for the purpose of pregnancy. Maybe they don't need to insert the probe quite as deep. I do not know how necessary the vaginal US is for pregnancy and do not know how uncomfortable it may be for pregnant women and will not speculate. It would be nice if the necessity for a procedure was left to discussion between a patient and her doctor and the comfort level left to the interpretation of the patient. Why can't the government afford doctors and patients that common courtesy.

Umm... all that aside, they're still legislating unnecessary medical procedures against women only. That's more than one kind of violation going on, there.

I meant to add, Charmin, before the time ran out, that each woman's experience is unique to her. You've likely had to endure many procedures in your attempts at IVF. I do not understand what that is like and will not impose my interpretation of what that might be like on you. I will not even try to put myself in your place because I do not know what it is like to be you, to experience what you have experienced emotionally, physically and mentally. I will not try to interpret what you have had to endure during your experience with these procedures. We should afford each other the same courtesy and expect the same from our government. That's all.

The difference between your IVF/transvaginal ultrasound experience & what this law requires, is the patient's permission. You freely gave permission for this invasive procedure because it was medically necessary. A woman seeking an abortion will be forced (not permitted to say no) to have this procedure, which is NOT medically necessary for an abortion. Legally, Doctors can't do anything to a patient without the patient's consent, but this law is changing that. If it withstands legal challenges, it will open up the barn door for legislators to come between doctors and patients for potentially any procedure. It is a dangerous law that has absolutely no regard or respect for women. In the right wing mindset, a woman seeking an abortion is a murderer, a felon, who has given up their rights. But wait....abortion is legal in the US. In my mindset and according to US laws, forcing any object into a woman's vagina without her permission, escpecially when she has said no, is rape. Rape - not by the ultrasound tech who is forced to do it, but by the legislators who voted in this medieval law. I hope a woman will sue the VA governor for rape. What's next? Forced virginity tests before marriage?

Just wondering the effect of this requirement upon a woman bearing her rapist's child.

The people who voted for this are evil, stupid and have no imagination.

Please put that in it's proper perspective.

It's not just State Rape.

It's STATE RAPE!!

We need to scream about this from the highest hills we can find. The State of Virginia should not and will not be allowed to RAPE its women either legally or physically!

Didn't you read the bible? The lady who checked Mary had her fingers burned off or something then went praising the lord for her fingerless hand or something. I think it's a Catholic thing more than an actual bible thing.

Drew - That certainly doesn't show up in my Bibles and I have 5 of them, including the St. Joseph Catholic Bible. Wow!!!!!

It's in one of the gnostic gospels. I think Thomas or something.

Nope, not in the Gospel of Thomas. The only thing in Thomas are the sayings of Jesus. There are very few vignettes and none of them touch on His birth. It could be in one of the other actually gnostic documents, but most of those are really off the wall.

Satire alert.

Even with your so called credentials you are missing the point.

Nobody, has the right to FORCE this kind of testing or any other kind of testing on a woman.

You used the term 'when offered', therein lies the difference none of the women you tested were FORCED , they had the test willingly.

Surely you know the difference between consensual ultrasound and NON-consensual, All Life. And surely you understand that the woman's life, and right to privacy, is precious too.

Your "opinion" really doesn't matter. And how do you propose forcing a woman to view the ultrasound?

You are claiming that women are not making an informed, "educated" choice if they are choosing abortion without actually seeing the developing fetus. That is hogwash. Any woman choosing abortion has a good idea of what is happening. Most women don't make the choice lightly. It is infantilizing women to claim that they need this procedure to "know" what it is they are doing.

I've had this ultrasound procedure done, for medical reasons. It is incredibly invasive and uncomfortable. I can't imagine being forced to have this procedure against one's will, whether the technician was kind/gentle or not.

Choice & consent is what the issue is about. I have no problems with a woman who consents to this procedure, but she has a right to say no. It is not your job to judge why a woman is seeking an abortion - it is a legal procedure. Do you not see the horrible irony that the same legislators also want to outlaw contraception? A move that would increase the number of unwanted pregnancies.. This ultrasound procedure, when forced on women, is purely for trying to guilt the woman into not getting an abortion. And who is forced to pay for this procedure? What if the woman can't afford it? Is the cost a burden to the taxpayers?

I am a sonographer for women in crisis' pregnancy.

So you are not a medical professional.

In my opinion over 90%

So you have no actual data.

The procedure will allow the visualization of fingers, toes, movement and essentially life

So you believe in the homunculous instead of observed human biology.

If a woman chooses abortion don't you think she should make an educated decision instead of an easy one?

So you believe women are too stupid to understand they have something growing in them.

I have seen a woman with 10-15 pregnancies and only 3-4 living with the rest aborted.

So you believe a woman "irresponsible" enough to get pregnant 10-15 times would be a good mother to 10-15 children.

The other fact is that the abortion will stay with a womans psychology thought process for the rest of her life.

So you believe in fantasy rather than actual studies on "post abortion syndrome."

I would like for a least a small bit of love and comfort given to all women in crisis.

Then maybe you should give women some credit for making rational decisions instead of portraying them as stupid cows who need a non-consensual invasive procedure to "understand" what the pregnancy test already told them.

Please see 1.10 above.

So...as a sonographer, you stand to make a ton of money if this legislation becomes the law of the land. Your business will boom, your practice will expand exponentially and your profession will have at the very least, no shortage of work. You can dismount your high horse now.

No matter what you or I would like to see, we cannot let our government get between a person and their doctor. This legislation is insulting and damaging to our republic.

Alllife.... you state the woman had several abortions and only 4-5 living... Couldn't those abortions be due to miscarriages - the layman's term for (spontaneous) abortions?

To other Viners.... Ever time some polititians come up with some test, examinations or other I always say ... follow the money.

So which one of these polititians or their donors have a business or businesses that will make money (profit) form performing these unwarranted and un-necessary testing/exams as now required by Virginia Law?

Talk about g-raping for profit....LOL

New word.....Grapitalists LOL

I doubt you are a technician. Your response looks like a list of dog whistles. This lie about lifestyle is most insulting. Women can handle their own risks. The majority face a miscarriage or some other risk to their health and their future! I rarely see a balanced discussion from these phony moralizers. Just a bunch of lies to control women.

I am a sonographer for women in crisis' pregnancy.

So you are not a medical professional.

Um, sorry, MechTrek, but sonographers are medical professionals. Take it from an Xray tech cousin of US techs. Whether or not people agree with All.Life. is one thing, but if this person really is a sonographer, then she (assuming) has been through rigorous training and certification.

That said....

The procedure will allow the visualization of fingers, toes, movement and essentially life to be seen by the eye and felt by the heart.

A diagnostic exam should be equated with medical necessity. Last I heard, the presence of fingers and toes was not diagnostic for "life". I know development is monitored by these milestones that are expected at certain stages of gestation, but visualizing fingers and toes is a weak argument for declaring a transvaginal US "medically necessary." This is cosmetic at best.

Let's call this law what it is, All.Life--a sadistic attack on women's rights.

It is diagnostic when checking for trisomy 21, body limb wall. demise, age of demise, webbing, Ectrodactyly (claw like hands), Club foot, valgus and missing or deformed limbs.

The firestarters really want to wail on someone and you have found your scape goat. I am a certified Diagnostic Medical Sonographer. I am a female 48yo disabled gulf war veteran. I have experience as follows, 7 years of high risk OB/Gyn, 13 years as a Radiographic Technologist, 4 years as a Specialist in the US Army and during that time was raped both digitally and physically by my superiors. I ask you to please tell me of the woman, 20 years after an abortion, said "that abortion was the best choice I have made in my life". I would like to hear her opinion. I choose not to judge other peoples choices but reflect on my own. The reason I blogged is that I felt unfairly accused of being a rapist. Some may choose to name call, patronize or bolster themselves at others expense. I want the choice of all women to be educated. I work at 2 very prominent pregnancy crisis centers. Most women I encounter are uneducated about the proceedure and just want their lifestyle to remain the same as they are college kids, wives with husbands in Iraq, prostitutes, drug abusers and teens that are brought by their parents who insist they abort. The real torture is a mammogram. Which is not a medical necessity but I bet Susan Kohmen would have like to been "offered" one sooner.

Reference to 20.6 answer: no I do not believe she would be or is a good mother at all but I have seen a list with over 150,000 mothers and fathers waiting to adopt any child anywhere at any time that have been waiting for years. I think they would be better parents. But you are right it is her choice. Her choice. Hers not yours, not mine, not the fathers, not the grandparents it is her choice to get pregnant 15 times and abort 15 times if that is what she chooses. But know this, she will get an ultrasound by choice, if her choice is abortion.

It is diagnostic when checking for trisomy 21, body limb wall. demise, age of demise, webbing, Ectrodactyly (claw like hands), Club foot, valgus and missing or deformed limbs.

But is it a necessary, diagnostic procedure for life? Can a diagnosis of a vital pregnancy be made without the use of a transvaginal ultrasound? Is a traditional US diagnostic? And by diagnostic, I do not mean "better." I mean, does it meet the minimum standard of care and does it meet its intended purpose. These lawmakers chose transvaginal US because they knew it would strike a cord with women and get people fired up. I don't know if you remember reading about the case a few months back where there was an in-courtroom US performed on a woman as testimony for personhood. The US tech was having trouble getting a good image and made the offhand comment about how she wished she had a vaginal probe on hand. Boy, the guys in the courtroom sure got a good chuckle out of that.

Just out of curiosity, what is the most common advice to women if these conditions are suspected? I'm not trying to be argumentative, I truly am curious. Unfortunately, I do not think I will ever be able to look forward to my first prenatal ultrasound.

As fellow diagnostic imaging professional (8 yrs in trauma/surgical xray, w00t--since went full-bore science, but maintain my license), I must say that I do not think the opposition thinks that sonographers are the rapists. They are making the point that the government is committing this abominable act against women's rights. If anyone calls you a rapist, they are wrong to do so. (I haven't read all comments here).

As for mammograms--they do save lives, they are not being forced upon women against their will, and they are not being used as a scare tactic in a political game of gender war.

Regarding being raped by your superiors, I truly am so sorry that happened to you. I can see how you would object to the use of the term "rape" in this context. You have a point.

You go girl/guy...that's right go get more coffee. I want a skinny vanilla latte please. I'll pay ya later. JK I liked what you said and agree whole heartedly.

I think that number is very telling. Those women are not supported in their pregnancies, emotionally, economically or practically. That is why they are at a crisis pregnancy center. I find it highly hypocritical that in respecting the life of a fetus, the state of Virginia is disrespecting the intelligence, judgment and morality of a grown woman.

To be clear Alllife, I was not judging you. I was judging your facts. Sonographers cannot assume any more than ER nurses (which I am) can. I stated that I respect your opinion, but not the facts. Try to understand the point of "un- consensual". That is very important here in this discussion.

I get you and thanks. I became defensive of my job and want people to really understand that the TV exam is not as horrible most think. I personally take great care with my patients.

In fact Ms. Jennifer Waters in my state a woman does not have to been grown to get an abortion or let her parents know about the pregnancy. In my state unless the child is under 12 or under she is protected by privacy. The only other cases are that if the "woman" is under the age of 18 (fully grown) then the situation is reported to the police as statuatory rape. All in vain if the family thinks it was okay for their daughter to have sex and THEN they dont have to know about the abortion.....

Even if it means raising a bouncy baby syphilis or gonorrhea. Well if it were Auto Immune Deficiency it wouldn't live until grown......

If you are calling me "pro life" people then what do I call you for your opinion? Nothing. The gay (male) population is rising high on the lists for adoption. I must also correct you, I blink all day, I believe it is a necessity for the eyes not to dry out. Skin color? Not sure what that has to do with anything but I guess you needed the race card thrown out because you were listing.....not saying much....just listing.