I find it highly ironic that the GOP ilk believe that women need soooo much information prior to getting an abortion in a licensed medical office, yet have no problem letting certain "crisis prevention centers" blatantly lie about the abortion services that they don't provide and disseminate false and discredited information about the health effects/risks of abortions...

I don't even know why the GOP even bothers using the "information" rationalization when they clearly just want to say to these women: "You should have kept legs closed. Now go find Jesus!!!"

Ms. Vogel states that "She calls her decision "a matter of conscience." - really, if your conscious bothers you that much, then don't have an abortion; and keep your government hands out of my uterus!!

Whole thing is a farce. Rightfully people got upset over the vaginal probe, and she flip flopped over the flak. Now to try to save face she's still supporting a ridiculous belly-scan ultrasound version, which is an enormous waste of time and money.

Why people elect these fools is beyond me.

"...wasn't the whole problem that lead to the vaginal probe the fact that a belly-scan ultrasound won't produce image results for the majority of women seeking abortions (which happens between 1-12 weeks)?"

Could some nice media person PLEASE put these fools on the spot with exactly that question? I mean, if the whole thing wasn't disgusting enough... they reach through the looking glass and grab this nonsense WHY, precisely? Maybe someone could ask them what it is about getting elected to public office that entitles them to practice gynecology? If they haven't had actual competent medical input on this, why not? And if they have, why go for this stupid, expensive, petulant little bit of show?

@The Mouzer,

True.

There are no signs of intelligent life among Virginia Republicans.

Ultrasound won't reveal anything until AFTER 12 weeks. Not before. MRI and CAT reveal fine detail. Not ultrasound. The fetus is smaller than your fingernail and sonar images are grainy.

The only thing ultrasound would show before 12 weeks is where the embryo emplaned. Useful for dangerous conditions that will require emergency surgery before 12 weeks. Like if the embryo emplaned outside the womb or if the placenta is blocking the cervix - both fatal without medical intervention. Otherwise worthless.

• Ultrasound scan cost -> $100 to $200; no fetal harm at low power settings
• CAT scan cost -> $1,000 to $2,000; harmful radiation that will harm fetus
• MRI scan cost -> $1,000 to $2,000; unknown risk to unborn

Right that's kind've my point. The whole reason why they said they had to do the invasive vaginal probe was in order to get reliable imagery of the fetus. This imagery, of course, is medically unnecessary and is only being mandated under the assumption that the woman somehow lacks information as to what she's doing and needs to be forcibly informed about what it is she's doing. Somehow a woman going through the act of an abortion is not informative enough.

I think there may be a few things going on with the whole "information" crapola. One, of course, that is a simple lie. It's not about information at all. It's just about bullying women into not going through with an abortion. It also speaks to a patriarchal belief/wish that women are incapable of properly thinking things through and need daddy, or the daddy state, to stop them from being such foolish girls and give them a stern lecture to set them straight. But, also, it is also possible that the "information" excuse is meant to appeal to Justice Kennedy in an eventual attempt to get Roe v. Wade overturned, should one of these extreme laws be litigated up to the Supreme Court.

It has come to my attention that a very simular law was passed in Texas. Nobody noticed at the time. Doctors are "raping" their patients now because of it.

This, therefore is NOT an isolated case. Seems like a conserted plan.

Makes it harder to believe that nobody knew that is was going to be intrusive, more likely they thought the women in question "deserved" it. How sick is that?

The following states have laws mandating that every woman who seeks an abortion must have an ultrasound prior to the abortion: Alabama, Arizona, Florida, Kansas, Louisiana, Mississippi, Texas.

North Carolina and Oklahoma have passed similar laws, but those have been blocked by Federal judges pending court challenges.

The Texas law was also blocked, but the US Court of Appeals for the 5th Circuit overturned the temporary ban.

I am wondering about the safety of vaginal ultra-sounds. While I am sure that utmost care would be taken by the doctors not to rip or tear the vaginal walls, accidents happen. And there is the real possibility that bacteria or a virus could be transferred to a woman if the sterilzation procedures are not followed. Nurses do get busy and may forget if the probe has been sterilized or replaced. There is also a rare possibility that a virus (HPV) or the AIDS virus could mutate enough to withstand sterilization. Even if such an occurance is rare: 1 in 1 million, say, it is still 1. I know that if I needed an abortion and had to submit to a vaginal ultrasound and got an STD from it, I would be suing every single lawmaker that passed the bill. On the plus side, if the ultra sound were to catch polyps or tumors, would the state pay for their removal? After all, if the lawmakers are so hip on showing a woman her fetus, would they not want the baby to have a healthy "passageway" at birth? It may behoove lawmakers that are against these bills to propose amendments that if anything is seen to be wrong with the fetus, the state will need to pay all expenses pertaining to its birth and care and 2) if the ultra sound reveals tumors or polyps anywhere in the bearer's reproductive system, the state will be required to pay full medical costs for the surgical removal. I think with a little creativity, women could get the state to pay for just about every procedure a woman needs to keep a fetus - whether intended and wanted or unintended and unwanted.

@ Jontara- This assumes they actually care about whether or not the fetus lives. We already know that if we outlaw abortions the death toll of women seeking backdoor abortions will jump to around 14% if we look at the comparative rates of other countries. Sometimes it even goes higher. If they wanted women to live they'd focus on getting the legal abortion rate to go down and the only proven way we know how to do this is via sex education and contraception access. But since that is derided as bad they have to find some way of banning abortion that doesn't outright do it since that would be unconstitutional. The way they've found it to make the act of having an abortion so uncomfortable that women have to seek other means. I do not think you'd get them agreeing to take care of women's bodies in order to keep the fetus alive because they would simply argue 'well she shouldn't have gotten pregnant if she knew she could have polyps or some other problem.' It'd all be written off as 'her fault' since the whole entire problem from the get-go wasn't about saving the fetus. This is why they have no problem w/ the schism between what's necessary to reduce the rate of abortion and what they legally attempt to pass.

@Mina Milovanovic- ....and your point is? Sorry I don't/didn't follow

@Mouzer - I was expanding on Steve Fitt's post. I was aware of the Texas law, but had no idea that there were also laws in all of those other states as well. I agree with Steve that this has to be a concerted effort and, in my opinion, seems like the kind of thing ALEC might be behind.

@Mina- ah...this is why thread responses are so confusing. Can't tell if you're responding to me or another poster on the thread heh >.<

I have been scratching my head over the same issue. I'm all for the freedom to choose a Party...But watching GOP Women sit and have men dictate how they will live and allow civil rights to be taken away, blows my mind. To watch Black men back a party that says your Community is a burden on society and needs to get off Welfare....To watch Hispanics join a party that would rather have a Grand Round-up and ship millions of kids born here, to Mexico and Central America.....I'm Stoop-a-fied!!!

Dear Vamp. How many GOP women could not afford to get their daughter a private, for cash abortion? How many Black and Hispanic GOP legislators still live in the old neighborhood? I am afraid that destitute people are looking for a role model and some hope that someone would understand their plight. Those of us on this blog are rich enough in time and money to get good information. Who is in their neighborhoods bringing them information> Their priests? The local media?

Me too. I asked a Lesbian friend of mine why, when she said "I'm a Republican". Her answer was my Grandmother told me to register Republican. Tradition and habit based on what?

There is the fear of losing something that is not realistic, but ideology. She then talked about documents/tests at DMV written in Spanish and other languages. I told them I wanted to know the cost printing/administering of tests and documents in other languages. Blank stares.

Then her partner, who is basically apolitical with Republican parents said she experienced a feeling of unfairness over losing out on a job to a bilingual person.

I told them I am a realist, things ARE changing. Businesses all wish to reach out to other languages and the Republican "pro business" policies might be encouraging the printing of other languages at the State offices. Smart employers know it is better to reach out to potential customers that speak other languages. If someone sees the trend toward being bilingual is an asset in employment skills, why discourage learning those languages and insist on English only?

I said, we live in California, a Spanish name with Spanish major cities. People spoke Spanish here before English speakers arrived here, along with the native languages. History. People do not register that fact.

In 3rd grade I met a friend from Indonesia, who only spoke Dutch. They spoke Dutch in the home. We became good friends. I just don't see the problem. If someone wants to excel in America they could learn English (the kids did and do). However, people do live here that do not speak English.

I do not think any of that reached through the wall or changed their minds about it. There is a resistance to change, especially if they- the entitled ones - must accept change.

I especially cannot understand how LGBT can avert their eyes from how the Republican Party insists on putting them into the closet and refuse the acceptance of their being part of America. Same with all the other "minorities" that keep being "marginalized" at best and demonized too often.

To me, Republicans are making no bones about it, they would dictate to people what is right and that is to keep everyone else in "their places", as tradition works so well to fight against change and encourage stagnation/withering/poisoning with the status quo and send them to where they "belong". To vote Republican now means you must accept all that with the tax cutting you so strongly believe will "help the economy". I know some Republican people say they don't like these things, but look at what they do.

Rant over.

Sandy

Think what the Republicans are saying is we need your vote but we dont need you! or want you!

Gay people just can't be put into boxes, just like blacks, just like hispanics....all of us are different and some of us value certain things over certain other things. Some gays may feel that marriage equality is less important than protecting abortion or gun rights. Some gays may feel that marriage equality is less important than lower taxes. Some gays may not care about marriage equality because they don't personally desire to get married. The list goes on and on.

In this particular instance it sounds like they (your friends) resemble a lot of groans many Californians have about immigrants. Namely that they- the immigrant- speak a different language that the Californian worker doesn't want to learn how to speak. But this is especially cruel because Republicans turn around and claim that people who are out of work right now- in our current market- are obviously lacking in personal responsibility. Like I said in a post a while back it's funny how accountability in the eyes of one man is a burden in the eyes of another man. To your friend 'accountability' means that, that immigrant just doesn't come to the US. In yours and my eyes 'accountability' means that she gets a copy of RosettaStone or joins some local CC classes and starts to learn Spanish.

A friend of mine is a lawyer and political staffer, smart guy. He is also gay. We agree on some things, others not so much. He recently said, "I'd be a Republican if they didn't hate me so much."

I think that's it Mouzer, there is really no box or label, but there seems to be so much evidence that Republicans work against someone because of who they are. It's very hard for me to overlook, but they can somehow.

There may be some grand purpose they champion. But too many times, there is a loss of equality/or individual rights that doesn't mix with the way I read it, is the role of government. The laws must not codify religious doctrine nor legitimize discrimination, or that some people are less than equal, when they are what some view as their wife or child is their "property".

I am in agreement with you that some folks see gay marriage or discrimination as secondary to their other ideas about taxes and abortion. Guns is another one that comes to mind.

My friend has said, but we still have love. That is true

I do not want too much government intrusion, either. But I do see purposes for a government that protects people equally. There used to be a claim of gays wanted "special rights", but now from where I sit some religious folks are trying to impose their doctrine on and continue to discriminate against me.

I could not really get a clear answer about why she is a Repubican, though.

I know a lot of men who are gay and hardcore conservative, Republicans. They are Republicans because they are Bible thumpers, gun lovers, and all about lower taxes and 'less government' (even though they have obstinately strong opinions about abortion and choice, of course). Those men vote Republican even though the Republican Party tries to erase their personal rights. Why? Because everything about them is Republican in nature except for the fact that they are gay. It reminds me of an episode of American Dad! in which Stan Smith (the main character) meets a man who shares pretty much every single view as Stan except he's an atheist whereas Stan is a hardcore theist. It's a comedy so obviously the rest of the show is about Stan trying to convert his atheist friend and what not, but that's sort've what I think about when we run into these conversations. You'd think an atheist would hate the Republican Party because the Republican Party openly hates on atheists. Yet he did not because he believes in everything else about the Republican Party except that small clause about religion. I guess in his mind he just ignored that factor or assumed it was just politics.

It also, I think, comes down to whether or not you're willing to give the benefit of the doubt to one party versus another. The next time you find yourself on a right-wing blog or the next time a right-wing blogger posts on here, notice how that person is always willing to give the benefit of the doubt to their party or political ideology representative. They don't hesitate for a second to attack a Democrat or a liberal or a progressive, but if you're a conservative and you misstep or if you're a Republican and you misstep it's OK. Why? Because they are always willing to give the benefit of the doubt to the Republican. It might very well be that people, like Stan's atheist friend, believe that the Republican Party doesn't really care about God- it's all just for show! And once in power they'll do all the other things that they've claimed to do which, if that's your political desire, will be a good thing.

I'm with you...but let's look at the main Republican Lie. Smaller Governent?..when has the GOP taken any measures to reduce the size of government? ...Lower Taxes?... sure for the rich. Better Education?...cut education funding to the bone, but want tax dollars to pay for private schools for their kids. Economic growth for the middle class?....by doing away with our minimum wage... Lower Deficit and balance the budget...by giving tax dollars to Corporations and Loopholes that allow them to pay nothing into the coffers from which they suck out Billions...? They scream small government and no pork....A man should be judged by his Actions...not his rhetoric!!!!...so should a "Party" The GOP would allow Banks to steal your pension...corporations to pay you less than poverty wages..."Yea, Free market!!!...more like Black Market!!

I don't disagree VP, but I think this comes back to what the narrator was talking about in The Power of Nightmares. The problem is that people eventually begin to believe in the rhetoric. Don't believe me? Dare yourself to venture out of the comfort zone of this universe and travel over to websites like RedState.com or Humanevents.com or Townhall.com. I actually have a membership to Townhall. They literally and unapologetically believe that Republicans are the only party of smaller government, more efficient government, and deficit/debt reduction. The fact that every Republican controlled congress and every Republican POTUS and every combination between in modern history has raised the debt and deficit seems to escape them. They literally believe that if you vote for Republicans the debt goes down. In fact I have a feeling this is part of why the Tea Party suddenly and magically became outraged about debt under PBO. Why? Because when debt is incurred under a Republican they literally turn on a blinder...whereas debt under a Democrat is actually seen. How else do you explain this BS line about Obama adding 5 trillion to the national debt? I think it's literally that people want to believe in the things being said and want to ignore the actions being taken. Liberals on the other hand- for all of our faults- have a tendency to refuse to turn a blind eye. Democrats fall in love, Republicans fall in line. I think that has more power than people realize.

That's what I do not understand, Vampire. But Mickey says the truth. They follow the leader after hearing the buzz words and rhetoric they want to hear, it makes them believe untrue things. I never have and never will vote for a Republican, even if they were a Black Lesbian or Meghan McCain, who I feel has compassion. Still, once in power, truly believe they are authorized to tell people what they can do in their personal lives. They say "this is not right, that's not OK". You are dividing people, while they pound away at the wedge. Legislating morality is what they do, no matter how they spin it to get elected. They somehow convince people that cutting Education for debt is a brilliant idea. They convince people that once Obama is gone and a Republican get in, they will cut taxes and wipe out the debt if they just elect Republicans. I look at the results and Republicans look at any move toward or reaction to change as a death sentence for America. I just do not get it.

Right On Mouzer and Sandy.....Do we live in a society that fears Peace? are we only comfortable if we are fighting someone, anyone, even each other?...it reminds me of how people are amazed when they see a cat and dog playing....Enemies are assumed and made up like fantasies!!...I think we should be Amazed at why people Hate each other and Not Be Amazed that they Don't Hate each other!!!

I think that you are actually explaining the true intent behind these bills - make it so onerous, shameful, painful, and harrowing for a women to get an abortion and she won't, so their logic goes. Never mind that women who do have abortions probably would say that it is all of those things already. Some of these legislators have actually claimed that abortion is a matter of lifestyle convenience. These people aren't living in the real world. They want to add to that anguish by pushing these restrictions.

It sadism pure and simple with the Reps.

lol! Bingo!

The GOP care about you until you are born, then you're on your own - they call it "LIBERTY"!

The GOP does too care about children. There has been an aggressive mass marketing of psychotropic drugs for school children without adequate testing. The fast tracked rush to market amounts to mass-drug-testing on normal children often with deleterious effects including child deaths. The following link describes what is driving this profitable drug industry trend. Could the foaming-at-the-mouth opposition to abortion and the renewed call for curbing birth control be about expanding the market for such prescription drug sales? Perish the thought! Check out this documentary.

http://www.brasschecktv.com/videos/health-and-medical/making-a-killingthe-untold-story-of-psychotropic-drugging.html

Yes! I've complained about this before, but basically it boils down to this: the GOP wants people to associate secular w/ atheism which people (according to polls at least) associate w/ something bad. Atheists are more hated than Arabs, Muslims, and gays as a respective group. Which means when someone like Gingrich goes out and says 'they want to turn us into a secular society' what he's trying to say is that Democrats/liberals want us to be an atheist society. Even though this is not what secularism means this is what gets repeated over and over. And, yet again *sigh*, our media doesn't call these guys out on such statements. Someone in the press seriously needs to go 'but you do realize secular doesn't mean atheist it means non-committed, right?' Until that happens you're going to hear the line repeated over and over again.

Facts didn't stop these people from turning "liberal" into the equivalent of a dirty word. The way some of them pronounce it, you'd swear it has four syllables and the first two are about Mom.

Goodwir, a secular state is the intent of the founding father. When you make law based on religion, because of their desire to allow everyone to follow their own belief system, any laws based on a religion risks infringing on another.

A secular law system keeps us all free to choose how to believe, its a gift! And they are using this for their own political agendas.

@The Mouzer, @Goodwir,

Republicans would like to do away with separation between church and state so that they can lock up all the gays and foreigners.

Kind of like German Nazis did during WW II.

My bad for going there.

So, depending on which way I lean, I get a choice between crematoriums or the guillotine?

We're not in Kans-as anymore Toto....It just smells like an ass....

Florida tried to pass one not that long ago, back in the relatively good ol' days when Charlie Crist was governor. It would've been the same damned thing. I was tearing my hair out; no one else seemed to care. I was shocked that Crist vetoed it.

If it was accurate medically needed information, doctors in texas wouldn't be screaming their heads off about raping their patients.

Then they lied and said they did not realize how invasive it was. I was going to be crude and say their 3" manhood was not an adequate yardstick to measure what was invasive, but I am too much of a gentleman.

Its liberals you don't have to be :)

I think insanity is in the drinking pool of the republican party right now. time for them to all go.

I have sent some nasty grams letting republicans know they lost my vote.

Wall street is backing Obama suddenly though, guess they don't want to go down with the sinking ship called the republican party.

To mandate a doctor to do this, I am not sure as a nurse I could, its assault and battery.

Breaking news, to add to my previous post.

Virginia Gov. Robert McDonnell was quoted Friday as saying, "I believe the bill will pass," he said. "Virginia will have a strong women's right-to-know bill, to provide the information necessary to make a fully informed decision."

"Right-to-know." You gotta love it. This is a perfect example of a twisted, misleading Frank-Luntzism. How about "forced-to-look?" Women already have a right to know. All they have to do is ask.

BTW, meanwhile, where are the doctors, you know, the ones who have sworn an oath?