First up from the God Machine this week is arguably the most closely watched commencement address from a presidential candidate since George W. Bush stopped by Bob Jones University 12 years ago. Today, of course, is the day Mitt Romney speaks at Liberty University, a right-wing school founded by the late radical televangelist Jerry Falwell.
The timing could be better for the Republican. When the campaign announced that Romney would speak at the Virginia college, it didn't know the remarks would come amidst a larger discussion of marriage rights, the anti-gay measures in the former governor's platform, and a decades-old incident in which Romney allegedly assaulted a high-school student believed to be gay.
Delivering a commencement address at Falwell's school is itself a strange decision -- at this phase of the campaign, shouldn't Romney stop pandering to extremists and start Etch A Sketching towards the American mainstream? -- but for the speech to come now makes it all the more significant.
There's no shortage of compelling angles to this story. Note, for example, "The Liberty Way" -- the university's all-encompassing code of conduct -- which dictates much of students' lives, even off campus. Dancing and R-rated movies are prohibited, for example, and the punishment for student abortions is the same as dabbling in witchcraft. (Perhaps "Liberty" was not the best choice of names for the school.)
Falwell U. also, incidentally, offers a course that identifies Mormons as belonging to a "cult" that must be defeated.
Given all of this, will Romney use his speech today to put some distance between himself and the religious right's radicalism or will he pander to the evangelical audience with culture-war red meat? Chances are, we'll see neither -- advance excerpts suggest the GOP presidential hopeful will stick to more generic themes, such as the value of family, and hope his mere presence is enough to solidify the support Romney will need from the right in November.
But for the larger mainstream, the commencement address suggests Romney's post-primary shift away from his party's more extreme elements still isn't happening. What's more, despite all the talk about his focus on the economy, the Republican's anti-gay agenda is reinforced, not just with his push for a constitutional amendment, but with his decision to visit a school that considers itself a "hard liner institution against the homosexual menace."
Also from the God Machine this week:
* The U.S. Conference on Catholic Bishops went into more detail this week when criticizing Republican budget cuts the Roman Catholic leaders believe are needlessly punitive towards the poor (thanks to C.S. for the tip).
* When President Obama endorsed marriage equality this week, he announced a position that his church, the United Church of Christ, has supported for quite a while.
* The Vatican crackdown on the Leadership Conference of Women Religious, an umbrella organization representing 57,000 American nuns, was reportedly "spurred on by American Catholic officials worried the nuns aren't vocal enough on conservative social issues."
* The religious right's pseudo historian, David Barton, has a new book. It's filled with claims that don't stand up well to scrutiny.
* And in Arizona, a private religious school was set to play in a baseball state championship, but forfeited because their rival's team was co-ed (thanks to R.P. for the tip).
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Just last week Romney dissed a reporter in Colorado because she tried to get his response to "social issues". He chastised her for not asking questions about bigger issues like the "economy" and "jobs". Do you REALLY think Romney is going to talk about the "economy" at Liberty University?
http://denver.cbslocal.com/2012/05/10/romney-loses-cool-when-questioned-about-marijuana-gay-marriage/
Go to 2 minutes if you don't want to watch the whole thing!
Someone should compare that clip of that Colorado interview and the Liberty University speech - I'm betting you will see MORE Romney hypocrisy!!
Actually, someone should have had the report about Romney's "bullying" on and then they should have shown that Colorado clip. Romney hasn't learned a thing since high school!!
I wonder how he keeps getting away with talking to women in that manner. They say you can tell a lot about a man by the way he treats his mother. Does he treat his mother in this way? We should ask her. Anne cannot bear(show strength) witness against her husband.
Angel, I'm new to blogs, so I clicked on the "check" by mistake. I want to understand your post. Are you saying that he has been specifically talking to women in a demeaning way, or you don't think he should speak to women, in general, in the manner in which he spoke to this reporter?
I think the social issues are just what the republicans want to talk about. It happens every 4 years and it's going on now just like it always does. I would love the discussion to be about the economy, health care, immigration and Afghanistan.
This oughta be interesting, I hope it's on TV. I could use a good laugh today. This man is scrambling, you can hear it in his voice, it may even be too painful to watch but, I will watch it anyway. It may not be televised due to it's gentlemans' agreement secrecy. There sure are a lot of secrets in D.C.land.
sorry, angel. watching multiple-choice mitt scramble will never be painful as far as i'm concerned.
I read on one of the comment pages where someone called Romney a "Pander Bear".What an apt name for the man of plastic. Whatever he thinks the crowd wants to hear at the time he says.Of course he can say just about anything he wants because he has so many positions on any policy.He does'nt care about America,he cares about Romney & family. Why wont he show his tax returns from previous years? It's because they will show damning evidence of his tax dodging offshore accounts.It's hard to imagine how anyone would vote for a tax dodging pathilogical liar such as he.
And pander he did!
http://www.businessinsider.com/heres-the-full-text-of-mitt-romneys-liberty-university-commencement-address-2012-5
Oh, he'll pander! He won't miss a chance to pander!
Before we get lost on the Romney story -- which should be fun -- we should take a look at that last story, the basketball one. Because it is a little weirder than it seems. (Steve is a great reporter, but even he has time limitations, it's always good to check a state-based story with local blogs who get the details that the follow-ups reveal. In this case, start with Democratic Diva, one of the better Arizona blogs.)
I haven't checked on other cpoverage to see how many people picked up on this one fact -- confirmed in the original ESPN story -- but people paying attention to the various religious controversies in the Catholic Church -- not the sexual ones -- or, for that matter those who remember the controversy over The Passion of The Christ and Mel Gibson's form of Catholicism may recognize "The Society of St. Pius X." This was the group of ultra-conservatives, run by Archbishop LeFebrve, that split with 'mainstream Catholicism' over the Latin Mass and Vatican II.
As came out during the Gibson story these are not just 'Traditionalists.' Democratic Diva only exaggerates slightly - if at all -- when she describes them as "Nazi Sympathizing Weirdos." (In fact, they may be the last remnant of the type of Frech Anti-Semitic Catholicism that anyone who has read about the Dreyfus Affair has met.) They wish for a return to the 'glorious days' of Vichy and Marshall Petain, and are Holocaust Deniers. (I never put two links in a comment, but you might go to the SPLC site -- if you don't have it bookmarked, shame on you -- and look them up.)
It is not surprising that this group would state -- according to the ESPN story -- "
This is a group that is very 'traditional' if the tradition includes misogyny and sexual repression. I know that is an easy argument to make against many Catholic groups -- and usually is slightly unfair. In this case, well, if you were shocked at a Presidential Candidate arguing against birth control pills and devices, so is the Society, which has an article on its website arguing that even the 'rhythm method' is sinful and against proper Catholic morality.
Until a fairly recent time I could at least state that the 'mainstream' Catholic Church condemned them as heretical, but that became dubious in 2008, when Pope Ratzinger began to walk this back, and just last month he began the process of issuing a statement that will allow them back into the fold. (Google it, and check out the article from the extremely right-wing Catholic On-Line site.)
thanks for all the additional info on this...i'll just note that the story steve links to includes this paragraph:
"Media reports described Our Lady of Sorrows as being run by traditionalist, conservative priests who do not agree with Roman Catholic Church reforms enacted by the Vatican II Council in the 1960s and who broke from the Church in the 1980s."
Jim ... It was a baseball championship game, not a basketball game. If it had been basketball, I might have been able to understand it. There's a certain amount of close contact in basketball, and the risk of physical injury from that contact is much greater.
Baseball's a different story. The kids from the religious school aren't generally going to be in close proximity where there might be some awkward moment. As a second baseman, she's in a little more danger, but a good 2B knows how to get out of the way on the DP pivot, for example. And they don't shower with the other team. It seems that, if Mesa Prep was OK with having a girl on their team, why should the religious school object?
Just another example of disrespect towards women. It's the same mentality that makes it OK to pay women 77% of what men get for equal work.
In the Bible, priests are not looked upon favorably at all. The positions they have, have made their egos quite large. I could almost bet that Popes of long ago actually believed themselves to be Gods or prophets anyway.I have argued with a few priests before. Some have a hard time finding where they got their information when doing their sermon. There are way too many secrets within the walls of the Vatican. Some dating as far back as the begining of mankind. Alot of them around Hitlers' time I do suspect.
An excellent book about of Popes:
Absolute Monarchs: A History of the Papacy
http://www.amazon.com/Absolute-Monarchs-A-History-Papacy/dp/1400067154
Another which I will "thankfully" complete this weekend
Constantine's Sword written by James Carroll
This is about the History of the Catholic Church and it's Bible regarding the persecutions of Jews.
A great read for a Catholic....
Both contain tons of documented references "so it's all there" and these authors put the pieces together.
sorry I am to delete a duplicate
One further point on the last story. In the regular season the coach pulled Paige Sulzbach and refrained from playing her 'out of respect' for the other school's belief, but he felt he couldn't do this for the state Championship.
That is awesome! What that tells me is this team has a ringer who is critical for the success of the team, and it's a GIRL! Just reminds me of the scene in Sandlot where the kid says: "She plays ball like a GIRL!" I love it.
Er, I mean "You play ball like a girl." My bad.
What? A stalwart republicon pandering? L-O-L!! Of course he will, he can't get (s)elected if he doesn't.
All this guy will say is IF the republicon machine takes over, women and middle class workers, and especially the disabled and disadvantaged, will suffer a great deal. The republicon machine has never cared one bit for the little people [which comprises most of America].
Ladies and gentlemen, America IS the people, not the rich who are running the American congress now, we are, the People of America. Without us, there would be no America. Plus, as sad as it sounds, IF the republicon machine takes over, America may well become another fascist country. All one need do is, look at what is happening in Virginia, Michigan, and several of the other states as to what they are doing to immigration and women's rights.
God is not weeping, because of same sex marriage could happen, since we are all God’s children. God would be weeping though at the despair and plight that people are put in, including LGBT people. It can be told right out that there is LGBT people who have had some profound spiritual and religious occurrences that so much proves that God does care so much for all his children, including LGBT people. If God didn’t care about LGBT people or as all people as sinners, why would God have LGBT people have these profound experiences, when it is God who has accepted on how these people are? After all who would know best, it sure isn’t any of us, except from those very profound spiritual experiences we know God does accept, care about and love LGBT people.
I quite agree Deb. As one of the LGBT community I have had some very profound experiences with the Divine and one solid foundation I know as fact: God Loves all - even the ones who are indulging in hatred and violence because they are not ready to learn to love themselves. Because of my own eperience I understood at a very early age the phrase uttered by Jesus before he died "Forgive them Father, for they know not what they do." We still have a lot of Spiritual Educating and Evolution to do here on Earth and it is progressing, albeit slowly. Namaste~
The various and conflicting last words of Jesus
What scholars seem these days to agree is the oldest Gospel, Mark, has a rather different take on the last words of Jesus, "My God, why hast thou forsaken me?"
That's not very convenient, though, for Christians. The last one I mentioned this near became quite angry.
God's don't care for people, people care for people. God is male, enough said about god.. How many omniscient males do you know by the way??
A true God would show us the way to a better, more humane life, not weep helplessly...
You had to find that out for yourself, Dorothy.
Gary,
I haven't dug into the Bible to verify but my recollection is that Jesus said both "My God, why have you forsaken me?" AND "Forgive them Father, for they know not what they do."
The former when He momentarily forgot why He was there in the first place (easily done considering the pain He was in) and the second when He remembered.
I just came across a video, Shane and Tom It Could Happen to You. If this link doesn't work, try google. It's a true story and hopefully will open minds and hearts.
http://blogs.phillymag.com/gphilly/2012/05/09/shane-tom-happen/
Iowaserf,
Unfortunately for us, that's the deal He made with us. We have free will.
He knows what we need but we have to ask. We seldom honestly and humbly ask. And so He often cries.
Trollop there is no proof what God really is, especially in the case if God is a male.
Your god isn't god of everyone. With that, you can't think it is whatever you want since it's entirely your god.
I assume these kids choose Liberty to get a religious education, in an attempt to do the right thing by their God, but the adults that run Liberty see to it their charges get a social indoctrination that will affect these kids for an entire lifetime.
I received a liberal education, wherein I was exposed to mind-opening points of view, cultures, and thought. Religious/conservative education seems to appoint itself the task of cementing young minds into one particular religious/political point of view that will keep them conservative, aka Republican, intent on helping keep a certain religion front and center in society, while denying an open-minded examination of the very [sickened] planet these kids will operate in as adults.
That Liberty says Mormonism is a cult would be laughable if not so detrimental to entire class after class of religiously/politically track-trained kids.
I have an aquaintance that sent his son to Liberty University and he is quite "pleased" at the education the son got there. But when you try to get the kid to think about something or express his OWN opinion, he can't do it - he just parrots what someone else has said. It is actually VERY SAD to see a 22 year old who can't express his own opinion on marriage or women or even the economy!!!
But the kid looks good, has his ideology down perfectly, and is socially competent so "daddy" and all of his evangelical buddies will make sure the kid goes far!
Now to Romney and the mythical 'pivot to the center.' This is not and can't happen, and because it can't and won't, this is just another reason why we should begin to realize that the Presidential election is all but over. (I'll state now -- and have bet 500 books against 5 from my wish list on this -- that Romney won't get 100 Electoral Votes, that he'll lose all of the swing states except for KY and TN.) Instead of watching the twitches of the polls and checking our underwear every time there is a slight uptick against the slow decline, we should change our focus and -- unlike the Disaster of 2010 -- make sure that Obama has as large a Congressional majority as is possible behind him.
We should be talking about Shelley Berkeley, Dr. Richard Carmona, Elizabeth Warren, Joe Donnelly (okay, BlueDoggish, but we in the blgosphere swallowed hard and were responsible for electing a Jim Webb) and other candidates on a district level. We should be securing Bill Nelson's reelection -- which is looking very likely -- and supporting Claire McCaskill and Jon Teeter. We even have to accept Joe Manchin, knowing the only vote we can hope for from him is the vital organizational one.
But that implies I am right about the 'pivot to the center.' Let's take another comment to discuss this.
Yes, It is within the States that the battle lines have been drawn by the GOP. Witness Wisconsin, Ohio, Michigan, and Indiana. There are other states, but these seem to be the spear point of the attack by the Kochs, ALEC, and the rest of these folks. I agree that we have to give BO our support by electing a better group of politicos, who are wanting to fight for us. Blue Dogs have killed us and deserve to be grouped with the rest of the right wing. The corruption has "trickled down" to the county, and town level. I guess the trickle down theory really does happen. I, for one, was lulled into a false sense of security by the Republicans, even tho I have never voted for one. After many years of trying to live the American Dream, I have learned some valuable lessons, one, the American Dream is a lie, put forth by corporatists, long ago. I just wish I was smart enough to beat them on their terms, as it is now, I will probable die in the up coming street fighting.
You have a lot of faith and I hope you are right. I don't really think that Romney can be elected...so it makes it even more important to vote for the congress and get it back to a democratic one....in both meanings of the word.
To change the subject slightly, on the TRMS earlier this week, she hosted Rev. Dr. C Weldon Gaddy. He is impressive as was his quote about the religious right. "I like to associate prayer and the truth". This is the standard that everyone who claims to believe in the Bible should hold dear. I know it is a lot to ask in these partisan times but it will remain my personal expectation.
in other twig news
la parish breaks from presbyterians; saying church isn't pro-gay enough
(Reuters) - As throngs of religious conservatives break from the U.S. Presbyterian Church over the ordination of gay ministers, a small gay-led California parish is staging a schism of its own, saying the church has done too little to accept homosexuality.
The West Hollywood Presbyterian Church in Los Angeles plans to formally join the ranks of the more liberal United Church of Christ on Saturday.
"I can't wait" said the Rev. Dan Smith, a gay pastor who has led the progressive congregation with about 57 members since the 1980s. "It's like being released from an abusive relationship," he told Reuters. "We're ready to be set free."
Clearing a last hurdle for the defection, a regional governing body called the Presbytery of the Pacific voted on Tuesday to let the 99-year-old parish keep property belonging to the parent church when it makes the move. Officials from the parent church could not immediately be reached for comment.
West Hollywood is the first progressive congregation to leave the fold under a so-called "gracious-dismissal" policy church elders devised to avoid contentious lawsuits over congregations seeking to leave the denomination.
http://news.yahoo.com/gay-led-los-angeles-parish-breaks-presbyterian-church-205654324.html
My money is on Romney pandering to the religious extremists while in the company of religious extremists.
He has no clear stance, obviously. He can only check his GPS to see where he is, then recite whatever that place would like to hear.
and in this weeks catholic sex scandal news
VATICAN CITY (AP) — The Vatican is investigating seven priests from the troubled Legion of Christ religious order for alleged sexual abuse of minors and another two for other alleged crimes, The Associated Press has learned.
The investigations mark the first known Vatican action against Legion priests for alleged sexual assault following the scandal of the Legion's founder, who was long held up as a model by the Vatican despite credible accusations — later proven — that he raped and molested his seminarians.
The Legion, which is now under Vatican receivership, has insisted that the crimes of its late founder, the Rev. Marciel Maciel, were his alone.
But the Vatican investigation of other Legion priests indicates that the same culture of secrecy that Maciel created within the order to cover his crimes enabled other priests to abuse children — just as abusive clergy of other religious orders and dioceses have done around the world.
In a statement Friday to the AP, the Legion confirmed it had referred seven cases of alleged abuse to the Vatican office that investigates sex crimes. All but one involves alleged abuse dating from decades ago; one case involves recent events.
The ultra-conservative Legion of Christ movement expanded hugely under late Pope John Paul II and is now present in 22 countries, particularly in Latin America.
http://news.yahoo.com/ap-exclusive-vatican-eyes-legion-priests-abuse-073340556.html
I think the Catholics take Jesus's injunction to love our children just a bit too literally.
Romney is simply not going to be able to afford to 'pivot to the center,' even were he to be inclined to do so. A candidate can only 'pivot' if three things are true. He must
None of this is possible for Willard. He simply doesn't have his base secure yet, and won't ever have it. There will always be a (much larger than expected by the punditry) group of ultra right wing Christians who can't vote for a Mormon. There are still so many right-wingers (many until recently inspired by Limbaugh or Fischer) who remember his previous 'liberal' positions and will be watching for any form of 'backsliding.' And, on the other wing, there will be a great number of "Traditional Republicans' (meaning those who vote, automatically and unthinkingly, for the Republican 'because they always have' -- not those who 'worship tradition'), particularly women Republicans who are actually thinking about their vote this time because of the "Republican War on Women."
Finally, Romney has to realize that, given his already expressed extremist positions, he can not attract centrists by shuttling between the center-right and the extreme right. For example, on immigration, aftr hanging with Kurt Kobach and accepting/seeking support from the likes o Sheriff Joe, he can't just retreat to a support of the Rubio (fake) Dream Act and win back Hispanics and their supporters. (He knows how Gingrich, Santorum, even Perry used his *ahem* less than perfect consistency against him, and he's already seen Obama's much more devastating attacks.) The only chance he'd have to geta decent share of the Hispanic vote -- partiwcularly the non-Cuban, non-Florida Hispanic vote would be to come out -- at least -- for the real Dream Act, oppose the attacks on Hispanic Studies, etc. And there goes his anti-Hispanic support -- and a chunk of other conservatives who don't give a ... about immigration but realize yet again they can't trust the Joe Isuzu of Politics.
It's like that eveywhere -- and I haven't even dealt with Romney's personality. Everyone has some incident in their past where they were the victim of the 'arrogance of the Rich.' Maybe a Boss's son got a job they deserved, or they were bullied by the Preppies in HS, or they were fired just to save money. Or even just they remember the time they'd spent fifteen minutes looking for a parking spot that was suddenly grabbed by a guy in a Beemer. In their memory, as Obma hits away at this unlovable trait in Romney -- and as he continues to show it -- their antagonist will, in their memory, more and more resemble Our Willard.
(And one final note While our cats are the most important members of our family -- as my wife and I would both insist -- we aren't really fanatical 'animal people.' -- We are animal people but try not to be fanatical about anything. But we know some and know them well, my mother and our closest family friend among others. Many of them would, other wise, be Rpublicans, but for the ones I've known, the 'dog on the roof of the car' story will overrule any 'merely political' reasons for voting and while theymight not vote for Obama, they won't be able to vote for Romney.)
So let's get back to concentrating on Congress and the Senate, where our support can matter and is needed, and leave the Dispatching of the Not-So-Noble Prince Willard to Obama.
PRUP, really enjoyed your post. May I add to the work of concentrating on Congress, keeping in mind how important the Supreme Court will be in the next four years.
It seems to me that Willard is the perfect Republican Candidate ala Grover Norquist. While he has nothing else going for him, he does have enough working digits to sign whatever they put in front of hime. I wonder how impressed the rest of our world will be with such a qualification for the highest position in our country.
It is not only disgusting, it is a screaming shame on the party I once thought had some moral principles.
It's not ok even if you are a Republican.
Mormonism, the Scientology of the 19th Century?
Discuss.
Dead on. Both founded by a con artist and completely fictional.
Oh, TC! Why limit to just those two religions?
I'd like to be able to say that about most religions with certitude... but most others date far enough back that we can't conclusively prove it. There's a strong hunch, yes, but proof is important to assertions... unless you're religious, of course.
I think religion is more like a control issue, everybody wants to be #1 or #2. I see it all the time while I'm driving. No, No, I want to be number 3 in line not number 4. Or it could be an easy way to make a few bucks and drive around in luxury and drink crappy tap water from your golden faucets. You should be a part of a church that gives to charities and actually helps people. I receive my sermons from the Bible directly. It's also a good place to show off that pretty dress or that fancy tie.
Into the loins den.. Sillys unite! Jebus comes in many extraordinarily boring flavors! I wonder if they have a gay student Mitt can lead a mob against? Probably not, har-har.
Who said "Religion is the opiate of the masses"? Oh, yea, it was that evil socialist Karl Marx. Well, he was right!! Doesn't take a genius to figure out why Karl Marx's ideas came out when they did even if they were too idealistic!!
It is interesting that just before nations fail, the corrupt leaders try to pump religion into the people - cause or effect?
Maybe to some not always sometimes maybe not, Then again no. According to Ian Anderson "God is not the kind you have to wind up on Sunday" Church actually means 2 or more people discussing spiritual matters, so in essence we are at church right now. God blessed me , so God bless you if you want you don't have to it's up to you. He is pretty creative you have to admit and he gave us wonderful stories and comedic relief. There is a vast amount of humorous entertainment out there even within the seriousness of our representatives, The Occupy Movement. TOM for short. I wander if Tom Hanks supports the movement I know Wilson does.
"Given all of this, will Romney use his speech today to put some distance between himself and the religious right's radicalism or will he pander to the evangelical audience with culture-war red meat?"
Boy, I wish all questions were this easy. He'll pander, of course. It's the only thing he knows how to do.
Did he wear the cowboy jeans or the business suit perhaps he should try wearing a white collar like a priest that could prove entertaining. Maybe a pinnochio nose and a flowery hat and come riding in on a camel. Wow, that's an image that is going to stick with me throughout the day. And poor Ann she is left holding the bag or his sunglasses. She definately has convinced me that he is funny, very funny.
I love the story about the private religious school forfeiting because they were playing a baseball team that included a girl. What? Were they afraid they were going to lose and be embarrassed? Were their pitchers' egos going to be damaged because they couldn't get her out?
Or could it be that the Catholic coach was so afraid that his fragile boys would suddenly be having "impure thoughts" and couldn't concentrate on the game?
It's hard when you're trying to level the playing field.No wonder they keep playing the same game over and over again they need more diverse players. That'll be a game that I would watch. The definition of insanity is doing something over and over again expecting different results. Let's change it up. Sitting on the sidelines is boring they should recruit some people from the stands to help especially when they need a new pitcher. We have Shirley at the plate now what's this she's using a tree branch instead of a bat "Wow" Oops, she's out on a limb.
Well, there is definitely the view of teaching religion and under the cult link, there are many students rationalizing that Mormonism is the incorrect theology, but supportive of economic plan (?) of Romney. Willing to overlook the cult in order to push the laws that further indoctrinate Christianity into laws. The pre-law major student in the article cites the Biblical justification as making "disciples of all the nations".
It seems the task is to go about bringing us all into Christianity. While the law is brought into line with doing that.
The point being, these students seem to be OK with what they are taught is a cult, as long as it furthers their own goals to push the laws.
That is my interpretation of it, not my advocating it.
Oh, Sandy baby, The key is following the teachings of the Worlds' greatest teachers. Jesus is but 1 which I hold very dear and near to my heart. There are others open your mind your heart will follow.
Angel, I appreciate you very much. My mind and heart were opened long ago. I have my beliefs and try hard to follow the examples Jesus showed to interact, the very difficult way.
Mitt Gumbey
Why should anyone care what he says? A perfectly tuned weather vane, as his republican colleague said.
Who is Mitt Romney? "The answer is blowing in the Wind"
How many lies must one man present
Before you call him president?
Yes, ’n’ how many policies must a white man repent
Before the Oval office he is sent?
Yes, ’n’ how many jobs must a vulture firm gut
Before they’re forever banned?
The answer, my friend, is blowin’ in the wind
The answer is blowin’ in the wind
How many years can a campaign exist
Before it’s totally sold?
Yes, ’n’ how many times can a voter turn his head
Pretending he just doesn’t hear?
Before he can hear the lie?
The answer, my friend, is blowin’ in the wind
The answer is blowin’ in the wind
Sincere apologies to Bob Dylan
Finally - someone Googled Gumby and looked at the Wikipedia picture!
Trying to figure if you could work in a description of Bain's "troubled" businesses having too many assets and too little debt - but I can't make it rhyme. Perhaps if you did one to 16 Tons - "too many assets and too little debt" - never mind.
The Nehemiah Schudder 2012 Presidential bumper stickers are available online - seriously.
I prefer to call him Pinnochio, he is still made of wood.
Gays can't marry because marriage is between one man and one woman...at a time.
Thanks for stomping on gay rights when divorced people trade partners, have babies out of wedlock, cheat on their spouse on Wed and go to church on Sunday, while religious leaders have sex with kids. Why are gays being singled out in a world that doesn't really care about being true to religion?
It is sad, but we live in a nation of hypocrisy! The more "religious" people are, the less they actually practice the tenets of their religion.
We are also a nation of bullies, whether we like it or not. People in this country are always going after each other for something. If it is not skin color, it's gender identity. If it is not the country your ancestors were born in, then it is obesity (never mind that they put growth hormone in all of our meat to make the animals fat - what do you think it does to you?). Once everyone is as skinny as Kate Moss, then it will be something else.
Unless your were born to a billionaire family and look exactly like a GQ or Elle model, then someone somewhere is going to try to stomp on you!
I actually agree with Romney's words on this one. Culture is important! Just not the culture he espouses!!
mr. obama spoke at notre dame commencement a few years back. a major source of his campaign funds,come from the planned parent hood,and health insurance companies that pay doctors to perform them. the catholic churches stance on abortion has never been ambiguos. perhaps mr. obama should have passed on the speaking engagement. since he favors choice. it certainy is the business of mr. obama. to take money from whom ever he wants. while mr. romney is being criticized for speaking at liberty. is it not the same? the watered down abortion rights advocates. choice todo with what u want with ur body. genetic perfection,(no crosses to bare in life),and rape,and incest.(certainly a crime). howevr the vast majority of abortions are performed on young black women. if he is comfortabe with what seems to be genocide on his race,or at the very least birth control. under the guise of benevolency that is his business. u lefty's are cut from the same phony cloth,as the right. what a bunch of phony's. social issues. it is about the economy. ur guy hasn't a prayer with the working class adult voter.
@Ditchdigger, by your own words, why should Pres. Obama have passed on speaking at Notre Dame since he indeed is pro-choice? Choice means just that - choice. The choice for women to make reproductive health decisions according to their own conscience and needs - if someone chooses to not terminate a pregnancy because she is a practicing Catholic, that is her choice - and someone who is pro-choice honors that choice. No conflict.
Oh so much right wingery to debunk. First and foremost no the majority of abortions are performed on single women who are below the liveable wage who already have 1 child. This favors blacks because we have a society that purposely disenfranchises blacks. If you really cared about stopping abortion you'd care about addressing the income inequality issue. Additionally abortion is not genocide. Genocide is when a group forcibly acts upon another group to eradicate that group on the basis on identity- race being one form that this has manifested in history (religion and sexual orientation have been others). Someone choosing to have an abortion is not being forced into that situation by some exterior group. Someone choosing to have an abortion is not being acted on by an outside group against her will. To suppose that it is genocide completely devalues and insults the term genocide. Secondly birth control reduces the number of abortions. Additionally every country in the world that has open access to abortions has a LOWER abortion count than nations that restrict or outright ban abortions. So your proposition that someone being pro-choice necessitates that they want abortions for everyone is a. laughable and b. ignorant of the fact that by restricting access to things like abortion and contraception you increase the need for these services, not decrease the need. Lastly I'm not even sure PP has donated to PBO's campaign, but if they have you are absolutely incorrect in stating that they represent "a major source of funding." This year alone they have spent around $120,000 in major lobbying expenditures in their entirety. What that means is that everyone they lobbyed gets that total amount. That would make PP among one of PBO's smallest donors. Le sighs.
Lastly- you complain about abortion in your post and then state that you'd like people to focus on the economy. Obviously you don't want to focus on the economy or you wouldn't have dedicated your post to focusing on something other than the economy. I should also add that PBO has never came out and said that he hates the Catholic Church or that he doesn't support Catholicism. Mitt Romney, on the other hand, has came out and said that he doesn't support gay marriage and is attending a church that has openly called for gays to be jailed and/or executed and/or sterilized. How in the hell you could compare these two is just beyond me.
One more thing- PBO did not bring up the social issues. Neither did the left. So I am not at all sure why you're yelling at the left about social issues. The left never brought this up. It has been the Republican Party in their desperate attempt to avoid passing actual policies and the Republican primary that brought up the social issues. I don't mean this as a red herring argument, but it just seems strange to me that since the media has to cover what the candidates talk about and since this then includes talking about social issues (since this is what the candidates are talking about) then this means social issues are going to get covered. If you want to stop the coverage then you need to be directing your complaints to the Republican Party since they are the ones who keep bringing the issue up.
I'm also not sure how you conclude that Obama doesn't have a prayer w/ working class adult voters. First off what voters aren't adult? Secondly PBO has done far more for working class individuals than President Bush and Romney's campaign has basically came out and states that Romney will be a repeat of POTUS Bush. If you're OK w/ that fine, but then I think you need to rephrase your terminology use. I think you're confused.
ditchdigger: Here comes the Faux headlines! No rhyme, no reason(ing).
Obama spoke at Notre Dame as a way of reaching out to Catholics, to prove how he isn't a radical left-winger. If you really believe he's a secular leftist, then speaking to Catholic conservatives would be reaching across the aisle.
Romney spoke at Liberty to gain some right-wing credibility.
This is an example of how different Obama and Romney are.
Last evening I watched an interesting 2hr presentation about hell on H2 channel. Especially of note to me was the change from the hell of teeth gnashing and weeping to pitchforks and fire. Since the church was not as powerful as it desired and people could not sit home and watch Law and Order reruns, the church made hell a spectacle that people would come to hear about like we'd go to a comedy club. As the dark ages descended hell was presented so horribly that despite how miserable your life was now, it would be worse if you did not abide by the church teachings. Dante and Milton gave pictorals and poetry to make it more real. If Stephen King lived back then we might have had 'gunslingers' rather than demons. The church had a good marketing department and later conveniently their own thought police to further their agenda. When I was a kid I was a little afraid of hell (more afraid of my dad) but I was allowed to be a church drop out in my early teens. I am far too old to be afraid of fables. If the people knew how to read during the power grab of the church back then perhaps we would not see it rear its ugly head today. Of course those who choose to never question their sheephards, pose a significant problem on the state level so please vote.
Oh hey did ya'll catch this story. Remember how there was that group teaching American military personnel that Islam is evil and should be eradicated? Turns out that group had another contract w/ the military and did the same thing all over again.
http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/05/12/11675222-al-jazeera-second-anti-islam-military-curriculum-surfaces?lite
I hadn't, thanks.
Leon Panetta, is that your idea?
I suppose we could ask the Muslims in our country about moderate Islam and see if that were true. If that is true, would we be wrong to say all Christians are anti-gay? I thought it would be wrong to say that, since I know Christians that support me 100%, plus that guy on Glee seems to be able to handle the lesbians and gays in his school. (Sorry I like, but don't watch Glee much, so I don't know his name).
It has to do w/ religion, Sandy. Haven't you ever talked to these extremely right wing people? Perhaps you shouldn't- it might save your sanity to not ;-). But if you ever feel interested in doing so read up on Christian Zionism and venture into the land of Jerry Falwell and others. It will absolutely terrify and astonish you. And the sad thing is these people vehemently believe this crazy crap and not only that they are becoming progressively more mainstream.
They believe that there is going to be an end all times war between Christians and Jews against Muslims. And because of this good Christian and Jewish warriors must prepare themselves for the Islamic caliphate which will take over the world (a caliphate being the attempt to conquer the world and convert everyone to Islam and Islamic rule). When 9/11 happened you do not realize how many millions of Americans believed that this was a sign from God that the end of the world was about to happen and they saw this as a good thing. A thing that they want to see more of. For me personally it never ceases to amaze me how those supposedly in favor of life are so goshdarn preoccupied w/ death. The apocalyptic war to be will be fought w/ Israel and will be fought here on American soil. This is why you have those fake militia guys who like to dress up and pretend to be in the army crawling around in the woods. This is why people like former POTUS George W. Bush aren't afraid to talk about a crusade against the Middle East. This is why the further right wing you go the more and more you will hear people advocate for the annihilation of Muslims. This is also why PBO has had to deal w/ so many people associating him w/ Islam. The idea is to associate PBO w/ the anti-Christ thereby signaling to all these crazy right wing Christians that the end is here and they need to be arming themselves to prepare for the End of Days war. This is also why gun sales and ammo sales have gone through the roof since PBO became POTUS. Interestingly enough black people- and this is what the right wing never likes to talk about- are supposed to be killed by this apocalyptic war. Only straight white Christians and Jews will be allowed to continue existing up until the end. And then at the very end all the Jews will be killed and then the straight white Christians will rule the earth. And yes before you ask this is also the main tenet of Neo-Nazism and Aryan Supremacy in the US.
The US military- when we're talking about it's individuals- is by and large not a racist, sexist, fascist, or Christian organization. But the US military is these things when it comes to the organism itself. The organism thrives off neo-conservativism and neo-conservatism is a fake ideology based in these crazy fringe right wing interpretations of Biblical scripture.
You really need to watch the documentary The Power of Nightmares
Oh yeah, I have talked to some of them, and I have a rough time keeping composure. The fact that I have read the Bible and have dealt with my own demons and after a time, I read the whole thing and allowed my self to be a person here and now, not trying to win brownie points to get into heaven. I think as I read, that is what the whole thing is really about. How does something apply to the reader's life. Less concerned for trying to connect the dots with the end times to today's events.
That is why I am fairly disconnected from those that keep trying to say the Bible is for condemning everyone else around. No, there is much to contradict it.
Yes, I have heard of the Jews must die and the wars must be fought, etc. I just have to question the zealotry of all this racism and bigotry. I also saw that movie depicting the now deposed leader Ted Haggard (gay) that was training the children to be warriors for Jesus and Bush- Jesus Camp.
They are convinced they are learning correctly, but I have to do my best not to insult them and in discussions, get them to consider this, or that. I view it as insulting to say your beliefs are wrong, mine are correct and you are going to hell.
I will check it out when I am in the right frame of mind, like I did with Schindler's List.
There is not an official religion of the U.S., although I am aware a growing number insist upon it, but that is odd to call it Liberty, when you say here is "the" religion, stick to this alone.
Nods you are correct. I try to find the words to accurately describe the phenomenon- I've been using neo-calivinism which I know you and I have talked about before- but for me that's my way of attempting to not generalize all Christians, but just those who have this weird world view about the end of times. I do not want to say that all Christians are this way or all Christians are that way since people are complicated and you can't just box people into one little convenient package and then slap a label on it.
W/ that said the point I was trying to get at is that the whole end-of-the-world-Christian-warrior phenomenon is present w/in the US military at the policy level. Now I'm not necessarily saying that this is something your average individual personnel believes, but there is a strong strong neo-conservative element w/in the US military that just doesn't seem to go away. They want to be at constant war or at least constant war until whatever the goal is they have in mind is reached (the goal is not just win this war or that war...they have it in their mind that we must take out Iran, North Korea, Russia, and China...to what ends I do not know or understand). These people- it seems to me at least- have been stuck in the Cold War and they absolutely refuse to come out of the Cold War era. I think when 9/11 happened it woke something up in this segment of the culture. I've been saying that I think these people suffered from some weird form of socially induced PTSD from growing up fearing the nuclear bomb. I think that when 9/11 happened this engrained fear morphed itself to combine w/ the religious phenomenon of the End of Days and now you have this radical element that vehemently wants to start a global war on Islam as a means of a. preserving the Cold War mentality and achieving whatever the ultimate neo-conservative end is while simultaneously b. fulfilling prophecy. One has to wonder how a person can call something "prophecy" when you are the person making the supposed miracle happen.
Anyways it would seem to me that this is where these people come from. Let's continue teaching that Islam is bad and as more and more Americans come under the fold of this radical view on Christianity perhaps that will launch a global war effort that will bring about Jesus and the resurrection.
Or at least that's how the goal seems to be from my view. I've been wrong before, of course ;-)
But you are correct this is a conversation for a certain mind set and one can only stomach so much. I leave you (hopefully) w/ something more entertaining to think about, my dear friend:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8g4d-rnhuSg&feature=g-all-lik
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DZGINaRUEkU&feature=relmfu
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=akek6cFRZfY&feature=relmfu
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ykVGlzLRZA8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JGORt9E9Eag
If you're looking for a term to describe them, borrow from Andrew Sullivan - "Christianist" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianism). It's an apt word that marks their relation to, but separation from, real Christians who try to live good, moral lives.
Beautiful Mouzer. Isn't it interesting? Science can coincide with religious beliefs.
12 particles of matter, 12 comes up often in biblical writings http://www.biblestudy.org/bibleref/meaning-of-numbers-in-bible/12.html
4 elements of nature also found in biblical writings.
http://www.biblestudy.org/bibleref/meaning-of-numbers-in-bible/4.html
I had an epiphany in a class teaching electronics much like the video. It explains why energy and nature would be such powerful forces, revealing and showing a connection with "I am" in people.
Thank you, grumpy! I deeply appreciate the term as it does aptly separate those who are only seeking power and dominion as opposed to living a life of caring, compassion and concern for our brothers and sisters of all races, creeds, color, sexual orientation and beliefs.
Sandy,
You have GOT to be KIDDING me!! Because some nuts play numerology games with the numbers in the bible, that somehow is "science coinciding with religious beliefs"??? When the hell did numerology become a science?
Science and religion are incompatible and always will be. Science seeks the truth in defined and repeatable ways (i.e., proofs). Religion requires that you "believe" without proof.
Scientists and researchers I know who are religious either "compartmentalize" their minds or they end up spouting nutty stuff and lose their credibility!
oncearepublican,
You don't have to relate to that. I'm not talking about numerology. I am trying to show a thread of commonality between science, specifically the video, Mouzer shared to which I replied that said 12 particles of matter and 4 elements of nature. You and anyone else are free to ignore my attempt to make a connection.
I guess I am talking about my spirituality. I should have known to keep some things to myself.
I suppose there's no such thing as a scientist that believes in God?
There is absolutely nothing wrong w/ having faith or expressing your belief in god. And no you can be a scientist and also believe in god. God is such a fundamentally complicated subject that I think it's silly for those against the idea or for the idea to pretend like they can quantify the existence of god(s). I am an atheist because I don't believe that there is compelling evidence for the existence of god(s). But I am also realistic in my understanding that even if god is real, god would exist in such a way as to render my puny human brain incapable of understanding such a concept or being or whatever else it/she/he/they may be. I don't think there's necessarily something wrong w/ believing in god. My qualm isn't spiritual in basis, mine is religious. Which is to say spirituality (i.e. the belief in a god or gods) is fundamentally different than religion (a set of rules and moral guidelines that have to be adhered to often times to the detriment of society, although not necessarily so). I get upset when fundamental religions persecute people simply because said religion has declared itself the arbitrary decider of what is right and wrong. This is not to say that religions can't be sources of morality, but rather that I reject the notion that one organization can just tell someone else what to do (especially when it comes to the law).
Additionally I'd like to encourage people who are atheists like myself to remember that faith is a deeply personal issue. Faith is, by definition, irrational and illogical. It's the belief in something despite fact. You are certainly welcome to think that this is silly or to not understand. Hell you're even welcome to mock it. But remember that people who have faith, have faith because that belief is fundamental to their personhood. Faith represents something elemental in a person: similar to sexuality, gender identity, societal identity, and so on. It's completely wrong for anyone to forget this fundamental reality about the subject. This is not to say that you cannot try to show people a different way of thinking w/ regards to religion and spirituality. But it is to say you must respect where people are coming from (especially if you want to have any effect).
Additionally may I suggest the works of Carl Jung? My interpretation of what sandy was saying is that she's discussing the odd correlations between social beliefs, religious beliefs, and science throughout human history and humanity in general. It is a strange thing that so many common themes exist w/in religion and science. This is not to say that religion is necessarily in and of itself correct (so I am rejecting the notion of divine inspiration here), but it is, rather, to talk about how us humans have an oddly connected understanding to the world that I think often times goes beyond our own understanding. Pondering over this or being in awe of this is not necessarily wrong.
On a completely unrelated and non-confrontational note:
I hope you all are enjoying your Mother's Day weekend (assuming you celebrate such a holiday or that such a holiday has relevancy to you). =)
Mouzzer,
I agree with you that faith is a deeply personal issue. But it cannot exist in the same realm as true science. I do know many scientists that are religious but they have to compartmentalize their religion from their science. They accept on a personal level that they believe in their religion for reasons that have nothing to do with proof. On another level, they INSIST on proof of scientific theories. Their work life has NOTHING to do with their personal beliefs.
It is not against scientific principles to wonder at the unknown. It is against scientific principles to "believe" in a scientific theory without the reproducible proof to back it up. For example, there has been a lot of work trying to prove cold fusion, but reputable physicist is willing to accept that cold fusion exists because whatever tests they've done that hint at cold fusion aren't reproducible. You just can't "believe" it exists if you are a scientist.
My point is that many religious people attempt to say religion is "scientific" because of "creationism" or odd snippets they read in the bible when NONE of this can be reproduced or verified in any way. Pseudoscience is not SCIENCE and if you are religious, you really NEED to know the difference. Pseudoscience is a very destructive thing - it makes people stupid and generally harms true scientific pursuits. Way to much of what is purported as "science" these day is garbage, yet we are passing laws on it as though it were verifiable.
There is nothing wrong in believing in a God if you need that. I often wonder myself if there was a "directing force" that guided life. The soul is a hard thing to describe by scientific principles only, however, if there were a God, I think that he would have made himself known in a reproducible way to ALL of us. So far, I just don't see the proof.
Much smarter people than me from Blaise Pascal to Kierkegaard, to Nietzche to many others have tried to unite science with religion and have failed miserably - you cannot compare something you just "believe" to something you can prove. But what I DON'T like to see is someone attempting to say science and religion meet because there are "four elements" or because someone has been studying the numbers in the bible. That is just an example of the nonsense and pseudoscience that promotes religion over science. It just doesn't work that way but there has been a REAL PUSH by major religions to push this nonsense into the mainstream. Therefore, I rebute every chance I get!
Carl Jung is just too much into the "fuzzy wuzzies" for me - especially that occult stuff!
Sandy,
I would never question your spirituality or your belief in God. I'm sorry I came off so harsh. Many religions over the years have been trying to tell us that religion and science are the same or that somehow they are compatible, and they use "fake" science to try to prove this. If it isn't reproducible so that I can see the exact same thing you see, then it is "believe" not science.
Frankly the bible isn't proof of anything. You can't take the words in the bible and verify them by any other means. It is just some people trying to tell their story as they saw it. If you want to believe that they were guided by God, that is your right. But I wonder why he stopped "guiding" after about the 3rd century? I think if a God existed, he would have made himself known in a way that I and many like me could verify. So far he hasn't done that.
I wasn't verifying anything with the Bible, but trying to show there is a human commonality. Just as Mouzer explained. I also think:
I also agree with:
I should clarify something, I have read the Bible, but I do not think of it as written by God, but men. I am aware some people think otherwise.
It seems Mouzer is able to communicate my meaning better than I could. I tend to make observations and allow others to think themselves, reject or whatever. My interpretation of these things are mine, and I share them. I am usually prepared for rebuke and disagreement. I know what I say is sometimes viewed as nonsense, but I tend to attempt to engage and give out my current thoughts.
I respect both Mouzer, oncearepublican and anyone else for their right to be agnostic or atheist.