As a growing number of Democrats raise the "sabotage question" -- the charge that Republicans might be deliberately hurting the American economy to advance an election agenda -- Mitt Romney argued at a campaign event in Texas that it was actually President Obama who chose to slow the recovery.
In this case, Romney is citing a book from Noam Scheiber, "The Escape Artists," on how Obama and his economic team confronted the Great Recession in 2009 and 2010.
As Romney sees it, "there was discussion about the fact that Obamacare would slow down the economic recovery in this country." He added that the administration "knew" the health care reform package would hurt the economy, "but they concluded that we would all forget how long the recovery took once it had happened, so they decided to go ahead."
We know precisely why Romney makes claims like these. With Democrats arguing that Republicans are perhaps holding back the economy on purpose, Romney suddenly sees value in arguing, in effect, "No, no, it's Obama who slowed the recovery on purpose." The public isn't sure who to believe, and before long, the "sabotage" picture becomes muddled, with each side leveling similar claims. The accuracy (or lack thereof) gets lost.
But we also know that Romney's lying.
Asked about the claims, Schieber himself explained this morning, "That is false, in a variety of ways. I don't believe that it's substantively true."
Jon Chait added that Romney is "just making stuff up."
First, and most importantly, at no point did anybody in the Obama administration ever believe that passing the Affordable Care Act would "slow down the recovery." Nothing close to that is ever described. Romney presents the book as revealing that Obama believed health care reform, through its big gummint regulations, would harm the recovery, but cackling that he wanted to pass it out of some belief that Americans wouldn't notice mass economic suffering. This bears no relationship to anything the book says.
In the book, Noam Scheiber asked Larry Summers if he believed that the decision to pass health care reform cost Obama the chance to pass a second stimulus, and thus came at the cost of a faster recovery. Summers answered that he did not think the health care law prevented a second stimulus, but that even if that were the case, he would have supported it anyway.
Not only is it false for Romney to say Obama "knowingly slowed down our recovery," it's not even true that Obama knowingly passed up a chance to accelerate the recovery. The notion that anybody in the administration believed that the health care law would actually slow down the recovery is complete fiction. It does not appear in the book anywhere and it's pretty obviously untrue.
So, once again, we have yet another example of Romney telling blatant lie. And the question, once again, is whether he'll be called out for his mendacity, and whether voters and/or the media will care.
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This man has no one shred of decency or shame. He will LIE about anything and the MEDIA will follow him right over the cliff by claiming 'equivilency'. And THEN they will wonder where DEMOCRACY is going in our society. I am disgusted.
Do YOUR JOB MSM!!!!
It's YOUR JOB to research what is true and what is not true. There is nothing about what Romney is saying that you can prove to be true, ANYWHERE. Find it or call him out on HIS LIE!!!
@TheRealQuestionEverything. The MSM, wholly owned subsidiaries of the Corporations, is doing their job: twisting and spinning the truth to satisfy their masters. When is Rachel going to call the CEO of NBC/Comcast/GE onto her program to question them about their willingness to avoid asking the hard questions of the candidates who support their power and wealth? They are the ones who set the tone of the questioning. The "newscasters" probably don't even know they are being gamed. They know how far they can go, and they seldom cross the line. When they do, as Chris Hayes did re: heroes, they quickly walk back their comments. The MSM will not do anything that challenges their power and security. I doubt Rachel of Chris Hayes have the power to call out their bosses. I won't call them cowards because I know they are doing the best they can to point out the lies. Once again, it is up to us, the people, the make our voices heard by writing letters, commenting on blogs and telling our friends to pay attention.
the real reason they won't call out their bosses is because they are just lap dogs.
this article against Mitt has no standing just like Mitt's claim has no standing. Mitt references some obscure book to back his claim and Maddow references some blogger (Jon Chait) that makes a claim that could only be backed by some one in President Obama's cabinet. Both sides of this piece are horse crap.
I don't think Obama intentionally slowed the economic recovery, More like he put his signature legislation,his place in history BEFORE the American people.
It's going to be a busy Friday for Mr. Benen.
2 Questions:
He really doesn't care who he steps on to obtain power...
I was thinking that, too… so, he's saying stimulus would work and should be done to spur economy?
I am not clear on Senate procedures, but they were able to do something before, bypassing the filibuster. Perhaps the budget has to be involved. What if having more jobs would increase revenue to help the budget deficit? I call on them to do that, if it possible. People with jobs has to happen. Those slithering snakes in the GOP need to be bombarded with questions, like "why are you not passing Obama's jobs bill, when the country cries out for jobs? ".
GOP really thinks "We the People" are too stupid to understand economics and politics. They weren't counting on people like Rachael, Ed, and Lawrence to tutor us.
Snark.
Paul Krugman and other economists have stated that we need short-term stimulus followed by long-term deficit reduction.
One fairly strong argument against stimulus spending is that it has not in the past been followed by deficit reduction.
In the past, when there was a recession, there was stimulus spending - an accepted and proven strategy. We were pretty good at doing that. But making the cuts later to reduce the deficit is HARD and you could argue that we failed.
The 2009 ARRA was enacted at a time when our economy was falling off a cliff - so there was no time to structure balancing it with long-term deficit reduction. (It was an emergency!) {We also did not know we had to get out of an 8 foot hole - thought we needed a 4 foot ladder for a 4 foot hole}
You could make the argument that the Affordable Health Care Act was essentially an effort to put in place measures that could ultimately control the single greatest costs that will, if we do nothing, explode not only the Federal deficit but the entire economy. That is why - to me at least - doing the hard work to get the ACA made total sense.
As E.J.Dionne says in his book - "Our Divided Political Heart" - we used to have arguments and debates between good ideas and good ideas.
[This book is IMHO a MUST READ!!!]
There are probably lots of legitimate criticism and counter proposals that Romney and the Republicans could contribute to the debate.
What I find REALLY REALLY PATHETIC is the amount of out-right lying that we get from them. WHEN THEY DON'T HAVE TO!! There are other plausible solutions!! (that I might not agree with)
One last point:
No one running a business can solve the problems they face if they are not willing to understand and accept the facts and root causes. A CEO doesn't get the job - or keep the job - if they operate in FANTASY LAND.
Totally agree and I will definitely put that on my reading list. E.J. Dione is really, really smart and he is really, really sensible.
Maphi...Consider our debt and stimulus spending after WWII. Recovery depends on both sides of the isle wanting the economy to thrive but now we have one side only wanting one group (1%) to thrive by giving them huge tax breaks and paying for them by cutting our social safety net for the 99% and outsourcing off shore goods and services for slave wages and no regulations for pollution which could be done here but would reduce the profiteering of the 1%.
All solutions for economic recovery are being blocked by our current GOP...tea party corporatists. They are doing everything they can to make sure there is no recovery. Imagine if the over 240 pieces of legislation passed by the House under Pelosi had not been filibustered in the senate because they all passed by majority vote of 51 but then blocked by republican filibuster.
Just letting the Bush tax cuts expire by itself would bring down our debt to near zero in 10yrs. The only reason Obama extended them was he was blackmailed by repubs to get an extension of unemployment benefits for another year (which was an economic stimulus for the economy while allowed so many desperate people to survive the huge job losses caused by Bush).
We did it before and we can do it again if we get republicans out of government. Democrats have always bailed out the country after republicans trashed it.
Can this possibly work? I would hope that most voters have at least seen enough cop shows to know you have to consider the motive for the crime. Why would the minority party want to slow down the economy? That's easy enough to answer. Why would a sitting President want to slow down the economy? Beats me. Does it have something to do with all that anti-colonial rage he developed while smoking pot in high school?
Maybe it's a Kenyan thing.
This is probably the most astonishing thing about Romney's lying: he is so ludicrously bad at it. I suppose that's a consequence of his privileged life. He's never been called out on any lie he has told, and has never suffered in any way for being caught lying, so there was never any reason for him to refine his lying technique.
It's like his lie about the alleged inspector-general report about political corruption related to Solyndra. It lacks even the barest minimum of truthiness, but he gets away with it because too many people are too intellectually lazy to ask the obvious questions: what is the inspector-general's name, what is the title of the report, when was it released, and where is it available?
Or, in the case of this lie about Obama deliberately slowing down economic recovery: how does that benefit a president running for re-election?
Too few people question Romney, even in their own minds, and so he gets away with sloppy lies. So, shame on Romney for being a liar (and terrible liar at that), but more shame on the American people who are unable to recognize badly-executed lies when they see them.
This kind of silliness is what you get when you take someone with no consistent political values, no basic rationale for a candidacy other than feeding an ego, no policy focus, and no real strategy beyond winning the current news cycle.
Romney's statements aren't just lies. They make little sense--even as political tactics.
But that's what happens when someone's wandering around the political landscape. Doubling back on himself. Making disjointed statements, often just for effect. He's like a child seeking attention.
Yes, Mitt. Obama is going to sabotage his own re-election chances by prolonging a recovery. And, of course, the do-nothing Republican House and the intransigent Senate Repubs have nothing to do with it. The American public certainly isn't brilliant, but only the most mentally challenged will agree with that logic.
Just something I posted with CNNs' page regarding Rices' decision to endorse Romney... Not having to do with Romney being a liar..
However, I would refer to the CBSs' interview with Newt Gingrich and his support of Mitt even though Gingrichs' perception of Romney being an all out liar. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cCYAiJ36e9c (Bob Schieffer goes in)..
Does it seems so out of character that someone like Condolezza Rice would support or endorse Mitt Romney-especially after the Bush Administration/ Dick Chaney debacle? Really, Condolezza, you are willing, able, and capable of supporting any Joe for our President of the United States office? It appears to be something in it for her. Honestly, I am not a big Condolezza Rice fan though I respected her stance in spite of my disapproval of actions... I now feel she's just extremely ordinary- not to be confused with extraordinary. Her posturing at this time unashamedly appears phony and bought out... How can Condelezza explain her endorsement of Mitt Romney or what she particularly approves of by him and we "the people" and "media" cannot entirely? Heck, has he mentioned why he would be good for our country? Bains Capital? Is that it? When are we really going to get to know this candidate and his projections for our United States? I feel like we US citizens are being setup for another hoodwink? Media giants, including CNN are unable to bring home just how unqualified Mitt Romney is for the overall representation of our country. It is sad that Condelezza can be bought. It is even sadder that media is willing to withhold or produce pertinent (interview) details about a man that can very well effectively send our democracy into ruins... I do project that Mitt will surely destroy the future of America. The Supreme Courts may feel that it has protected the innocent from donating without prejudice or scrutiny; however, it has really made it overwhelming easy for the guilty to solicit without charge or conscience.
Thanks
If the CBOs projections hold for next year as they did so amazingly well for this year, who ever wins this election will be hailed "the hero"!
Have you seen the CBOs actual forecast for what unemployment would look like by 2012 - they nailed it!
The budget data is incredibly accurate ... this is actually quite impressive and the next few years look pretty rosy. This link is to the CBO database (an Excel file) using all data, from 1950 until 2008, with all budgetary concerns taken into account (what a fantastic job this is) and then projected forward...
http://www.facebook.com/l.php?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.cbo.gov%2Fsites%2Fdefault%2Ffiles%2Fcbofiles%2Fftpdocs%2F108xx%2Fdoc10871%2Fyear-by-yearforecast.xls&h=rAQHyl-_MAQFD2HzjKLGkfLkI2Qj63IuO6jq7R_3AtIt5eA&enc=AZM4fnd_0r2COKWRXn3g8wWcFViNuEqQcBs_zUfg0hTgv4WkwfejSBCXD4TbyOJ8Ex4sPKQpZ2RijcdmaDt6pgU3
Benen, can you make a chart on this? We need new charts to prove he is lying again.
PLEASE BRING ON THE DEBATES!!! The sooner they start, the sooner Obama will be able to call out Mitt on all his lies. And they will need many, many debates for Obama to call out all of them and hammer on the biggest ones.
Lord knows the MSM isn't going to do it. So bring on those debates NOW!
You're assuming that the debates will be set up to allow Obama to do that.
Well, they did get away with " Death Panels" didn't they? Sowhat do you expect? Why surprised? If you don't wallop a bully, they are re-enforced in their behavior and continue doing it. Same with liars.
The thing that really infuriates me is the ridiculous double standard that the MSM applies to the campaigns.
Would Obama be able to get away the the kinds of things that Romney does on a daily basis?
More importantly, look at the how high the Romeny campaign has reached with the candidate lying on a regular basis.
Think back to 2008, would Barack Hussein Obama have been able to become POTUS if he had run the campaign that Romney is running in 2012?
(The lying, the flip flops, the out of touch moments, the inability to connect with the average American voter)
NO WAY. Today, Obama would be known as "the Illinois Senator with the funny name".
But, look how far Romney has reached.
I believe it's because of:
1) The MSM, especially the beltway media, shows more deference to Republicans and conservatives. Even the media outlets that are not conservative leaning, go out of their way to prove that they don't have a liberal bias. False equivalency is what they use to prove their unbiased bona fides. If one person is lying and the other person is not, the liar would love for you to say "both sides are the same". It let's the lair off the hook., and it muddies the water. It seems that the Republicans have figured this out, and they are exploiting it.
2)) Romney's wealth and stature. How many times in his life do you think Mitt Romney received preferential treatment? He was never disciplined for his high school haircutting shenanigans, even, as other kids were disciplined for lessor things. Regardless of the motivation of the incident, Romney was able to get away with an assault.
He is getting the same preferential treatment now from the media. It's totally unfair.
I keep a lot of video clips from the 2008 campaign and the repeated phrase from pundits was:"this is referendum on Barack Obama" They said the American people "didn't know Obama".
Turn on the tube in 2012 and it's the same thing: "this is referendum on Barack Obama"
Why is it always a referendum on the minority? Why does the minority have to keep repeatedly proving himself worthy to the American people? The rich business man presents himself as a rich business man and that's enough? Really?
If that's not a double standard, I don't know what is.
It's REALLY infuriating.
My only question to you is, when you recover from your drunken stupor, will you even remember what you wrote?
Say what: Rollo isn't the idiot here. You are.
And the so-called "liberal" mainstream media is giving this guy nearly a complete pass on everything he says. With a very few exceptions, journalism is dead.
Thanks to Rachel and Lawrence (and a few others) at least SOME of the truth is getting out.
http://thelastword.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/06/07/12106634-mitt-romney-and-his-push-for-2008-stimulus
If nothing else, the show in Wisconsin has made apparent that voters will pay attention to whatever lies they hear, if the lies are repeated often enough and loudly enough. The war of political words includes the substance of the words, the framing of the message, the clarity of the message both on its face and in emotional impact, volume, number of repetitions and locations of the repetitions.
The question is whether the truth can be presented with as much volume, clarity, consistency and emotional impact as the GOP lies. Sadly, truth is often fuzzier than a lie. Isn't that odd? You'd think that truth would shine like a beacon. But, as political events are making plain, lies are easier to get out there in convenient, quotable and repeatable message bites. Lies are just easier, especially if the audience is lazy. Especially if the audience wants to believe the lie. Truths take more words, more thought, more energy.
I would suggest making the truth simpler. Some suggestions (feel free to add--or hone and polish):
- "The GOP would rather destroy the country than see the Democrats succeed at any point."
- "Show me a Republican who wants things to get better now, and I'll show you a person on the outs with the GOP."
- "Romney has no plans to help the middle class. He doesn't care about you."
- "Romney has no real plans to create jobs."
- "Mitt Romney is only interested in the rich getting richer. Everyone else is on their own in his world. "
-"No business expands without demand. Demand for products and services is what creates jobs. What would Romney do to make sure that the middle class is willing and able to spend? Nothing."
-"A robust middle class supports business, not the other way around. Get a clue, GOP."
- "The Dems have better plans to get the country on track, and if the GOP would either get on board or get out of the way, things would be getting better even faster. "
- "Who do you want to run the country? People who will do everything they can to make sure you can get your piece of the pie, and who will keep you protected as you work for it? Or people who want the whole pie?"
Don't use a word with 3 or more syllables when there is a simpler, clearer word. E.g. - not "mendacity" but "lies," "damned lies," and "more damned lies." Get the message across.
And never respond to GOP propaganda in the form of a question , because then they run with it and take you into endless talking points , this is one reason the media is so ineffective with the gop
If you make a direct statement about their falsehood and just debunk it quickly , they get stumped , they will still gop off into senarios that have nothing to do with the subject , but at least you destroy their credibility on the subject at hand
Watch romney on the VERY FEW real interviews he does , he will pop off 3 more lies in kwik fire action when he gets busted , any weak minded journalist will be left just sitting there slack jawed , and gop voters worship these traits
- "Mitt Romney is only interested in the rich getting richer. Everyone else is on their own in his world. "
… on their own without any life raft besides welfare, which is also on the agenda to go down. Even the crass statement about "not worried about the very poor, they have a safety net". Their wages being cut because of anti labor war being waged by businesses supported by republican "agents", bought and paid.
Working people are getting back stabbed by republicans, why do they vote for them?
Cutting wages is really stupid too, because we can then buy their stuff, AND pay their share of taxes they wish to avoid.
There's too much disdain among Dems for bumper sticker/soundbite issue messages...we need snappy, concise, truth stated, as you say in three or fewer syllable words that show, not tell ad nauseum our principles. Shorter sentences are essential.
A little long, but one of the best I've seen was in the St.Louis Dispatch: "To think that Romney, (a beneficiary of and advocate for the same economic policies that brought on the great recession and record inequality,) can fix the economy is to think that O.J. Simpson can find the real killers." Take out the part in parenthesis and you'd have that kind of message. On the whole, it's too wordy even tho it makes the metaphor richer.
I want billboards put up across the country that list five different things this President has done for the nation, the people, the children, the aged, the sick. Make it like the old Burma Shave messages you used to see on the highways. It might give Clear Channel money, but it would be a lot cheaper than just buying tv ads in swing states. It also brings back the 50 state strategy which is important to re-taking the House, keeping the Senate, and electing this Democrat as President.
George Lakoff needs to be hired to frame these messages to counter the Frank Luntz/Karl Rove influence and attack ads.
Sure, we all know the republicans are liars and the democrats are incapable of such behaviors. I really believe that Barrack Obama never knew his pastor of 20 years was a shrieking racist lunatic. I do, really.
Say what, you don't believe anything that fox news doesn't tell you. Be gone, troll.
I'm putting that one immediately on ignore. He's not even really trying. Here's a tip, "Say What": if I can't be bothered to kick you up the backside so hard that you can suck on my toes without bending down, then you're just don't doing your job right.
While WE all know that Romney lies, flip-flops on the issues, has no integrity or character, I am more than just a bit upset by the lame-stream media who chooses not to print the truth or challenge Rawmoney on his lies, and at the democrats who seem to not have a spine and call out the liars uniformly! What ever happened to journalists that were objective and truthful?
Lying as my Mother said makes you untrustworthy - isn't that a "family value"? Obviously Mittens never learned that lesson! Democrats on the other hand know that the GOP talking points are effective on the sheeple - and at what point do they start counter-acting with the T-R-U-T-H and staying on message? WE have a stagnating economy NOT because of this President - but due to an intransigent and obstructionist Congress that only appear willing to regulate womens wombs and futher deregulate & give tax breaks for their Wall Street money-men! It's treason against the American people and should be called out for what it is!!
the man is a sociopath
I was really outraged till Robert DuBois brought up the death panel thing, it is like we are becoming numb to our dysfunctional free press and this democracy thing , the truth has been burned at the stake , by smiling people making billions on tv
The difference here would be this is the presidential race , but will that matter? HOW CAN THE MSM NOT ADDRESS THIS? Mr Benen and I'm sure Rachel can dissect this in 3 minutes , but it escapes the staff and the million $ journalists? They are to busy complaining about the TSA searching them to much
What is wrong with Mitt and the GOP? Don't they know that media has advanced and we are no longer communicating by pigeon's.
The “Etch-a-sketch” image of Mitt Romney is beginning to form for all of us to see with the almost weekly revelations of the man’s character.
First there was the incident of scaring the “bejesus” (and more) out of the family dog, Shamus, on a family trip from Massachusetts to Montreal.
Then, we all learned about the “hazing” incident involving a student, at the prep-school Romney attended, who’s hair was “different” from the norm.
Next, it has been revealed the creepy behavior that, Romney possessed, while at Stanford University, a Michigan State Police Officer’s uniform, which he use to impersonate a police officer while driving his American Motor’s Rambler around the community, with a roof mounted red light and siren.
And now we learn of Romney’s “pro-draft” activities during the height of the national furor over the Vietnam War and then obtaining four deferments to avoid military service. And now to proclaim that he “longed to actually be in Vietnam”.
For only those with "rose colored glasses", cannot the real image of the character of Mitt Willard Romney not be "perfectly clear".
If it comes out of Romneys mouth it is either pure BS or a Flat Out Lie!
Bishop Romney is a perpetual liar. Time for the Democrats to make a BIG DEAL out of it.
...and this is news? From what I have seen in various media, Romney's "make stuff up" tactic is simply fourth in his overall strategy, following Distortion, Exaggeration and Lies. I once thought the country could hardly do worse than ol' G W. Now, I'm not so certain.
Maphi...Consider our debt and stimulus spending after WWII. Recovery depends on both sides of the isle wanting the economy to thrive but now we have one side only wanting one group (1%) to thrive by giving them huge tax breaks and paying for them by cutting our social safety net for the 99% and outsourcing off shore goods and services for slave wages and no regulations for pollution which could be done here but would reduce the profiteering of the 1%.
All solutions for economic recovery are being blocked by our current GOP...tea party corporatists. They are doing everything they can to make sure there is no recovery. Imagine if the over 240 pieces of legislation passed by the House under Pelosi had not been filibustered in the senate because they all passed by majority vote of 51 but then blocked by republican filibuster.
Just letting the Bush tax cuts expire by itself would bring down our debt to near zero in 10yrs. The only reason Obama extended them was he was blackmailed by repubs to get an extension of unemployment benefits for another year (which was an economic stimulus for the economy while allowed so many desperate people to survive the huge job losses caused by Bush).
We did it before and we can do it again if we get republicans out of government. Democrats have always bailed out the country after republicans trashed it.
My fear is the uninformed will tend to believe the lie when the self interested media organizations will re-enforce his lies on a 24 hour news cycle.
Here's what I don't understand. Romney can make stuff up and not have to face any charges and yet a soldier who I just read about that may have made a few things up to get disability might end up getting 30 years!
Please tell me how Romney gets away scot free with lies that will affect us all if he did get elected? If anyone has to be 100% truthful it should be a person that is running for the highest position in this country.... If they are not they should be arrested and charged with lying with a minimum of 30 years....Wonder how that would change the political landscape....
Amen. And why in the hell would we lock up someone for 30 years who risked his life for our freedom, because he wasn't honest on his disability application? I mean, what do you save the taxpayers by locking him up instead of paying his disability claim? It probably costs more to incarcerate him than pay the disability!!!
Meanwhile, Romney can lie his ass off, get elected, and get paid $400K a year, plus (currently) a $191K/yr pension afterwards. All after being too big a chicken to serve his country in wartime.
I totally agree with you KJ. When the soldiers are in harms way the republicans back them (sort of) but when they come back and are messed up let's ignore them or throw them in jail because the had the nerve to ask for a little compensation.
If you want an answer to that, it's because what Romney says is not under oath nor is it a statement (or a lot of statements) subscribed to under penalty of law.
But when a person applies for public benefits or testifies in court or files a criminal complaint or applies for many government jobs or files a tax form or does nearly anything in connection with governmental activities, he signs a statement in some form that what he has claimed to be true is in fact true, with a clear warning that he could face criminal charges if he has lied.
I'd like to see Romney's face if he had to swear to tell the truth at debates, under penalty of law. Just as if running for an important office were at least as serious as testifying in small claims court.
Plus, what with the commercialization of GOP politics, why do not false advertising and fraud come into play? Are not GOP candidates attractively packaged with misleading ads and programmed to further commercial interests? Just thinking....
The only way we progressives will win in 2012...
Will be by repeatedly reminding everyone that Romney is still the GOP
That ALL GOP Policies that put this country $16 TRILLION in debt are to blame.
We have to stop the myth that Obama added $5 T since he took office.
Everything Obama has done was to fix the GOP screw ups and does not constitute to be Obama spending.
It is ALL GOP spending if it has to do with fixing their screw ups.
Obama could have done better things than to spend all his time fixing the GOP's failed polices.
We also need to remind everyone that the INTEREST on the GOP debt is not to be ignored.
Every blog that I go to, I challenge the Republicans to name the Democratic polices that added TRILLIONS to the debt.
Guess what, none of them can name any.
We should always start with that approach to shut them up quickly.
It works for me every time, they can only mention the stimulus which was obviously used to fix the GOP's screw ups.
Challenge them, and you will ALWAYS win.
They have nothing and we have an arsenal of failed GOP policies to throw at them.
Have fun!!!
BO 2012
Mitt is a liar