Andrew Sullivan makes the case today that one of the major American political parties is "unhinged."
Or, rather, it is living in an alternative reality. 63 percent of Republicans in a new poll believe that Saddam Hussein had WMDs when we invaded in 2003, despite even George W. Bush's acknowledgment that he didn't. 64 percent also believe that Barack Obama was born in a foreign country, even though we have the long-form birth certificate from Hawaii. This alternate reality is sustained by a 24 hour propaganda network, and hermetically sealed off from any external intervention.
We are reaching a democratic crisis of some sorts. One major political party refuses to accept empirical truths. It has become a hall of ideological mirrors.
Andrew's not exaggerating. His item references this Dan Froomkin piece, published today, on a YouGov poll conducted last month. To help drive home the point, I put together a chart based the YouGov results on the WMD question.
Remember, the poll was completed last month -- as in, May 2012, not May 2003.
About a year ago, I wrote that the scope of the nation's challenges is enormous, but the larger problem is that we lack a discourse equipped to even begin serious conversations about how to address those problems: "[A]ny policy discussion has to progress from a shared foundation of reality, and at this point, the right isn't even prepared to accept the basics."
I still believe that.
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So at what point is the media going to start putting pressure on themselves to quit accepting the BS?
You get various reporters who knows they are going to interview someone. The decide what questions they are going to ask. Then the interviewee comes out with some blatant lie and the reporter just lets it slide.
Is this simply part of the equal time nonsense?
Journalism used to mean something in this country. Where are the John Andersons, Mike Roykos, etc. of the world?
It is probably too late for journalism to mean anything again in the US. It is too infested by corporate wh0res and moral cowards.
We just call them stenographers now. Colbert was right.
Its a Faux Faux Faux Faux world. Reality dare not speak it's name.
Well now since the main stream media already told us there were no WMDs and since they have shown the long form birth certificate I must assume that you are refering to right wing media. To expect FOX or Rush or any right winged propagandist to correct their own lies seems a little foolish. This is war and truth,justice and the American way of life are mere collateral damage.
These are the same people who think that creationism is a theory rather than a mere belief and the Earth is ten thousand years old. These are the gun nuts who want to carry guns to prtect themselves from the government and other evil things like a skittles totting kid.
The rub is that these kooks not only exist but they exist in numbers that astound. So buy your cotraceptives while you still can, buy mylar by the yard, vote every chance you can before you lose the right and by all means-point and accuse while sipping your water tainted with mercury from clean coal ash.Frack 'em and crack 'em.
Paul,
Actually referring to everyone but the right wing media. I expect them to twist the truth.
When was the last time that one of the Sunday morning news shows told someone that they were misrepresenting something, or in a nice way saying that the person was lying?
I feel that we've gotten to the point where an interviewee could pull out a gun, shoot the host, and then say that he didn't do it and the host wouldn't call them on it.
When half of the country no longer believes empirical evidence, we are doomed. Propaganda is alive and well, and people care more about a sound bite than facts. And people wonder why there is such a hyper-partisan divide...
I was never a supporter of the invasion of Iraq, but WMD was formerly call Chemical-Biological-Nuclear. We know that Iraq used chemical weapons on Iran. Bush pushed the Nuclear part of CBN to frighten us into war.
The thing that annoys me the most about this type of report is people default to thinking only nuclear when someone says WMD
I agree with you..
Why do you believe this distinction to be relevant? Of course we know that Iraq gassed Iranians. Factually true, but completely beside the point. WMDs are a whole other thing, and we were sold on going to war based on Iraq having the ability to strike at the US itself, if I remember that whole tubes on trucks presentation that Powell gave to the UN correctly, and I believe that I do. There were cases in the 80s of Iraq using Mustard gas and Tabun on Iranians, but only in air to surface rockets, artillery and bombs dropped from aircraft. And then there was evidence that Sadaam gassed his own people in the 80s and 90s. There however has never been any evidence that Iraq possessed the capability to deploy Weapons of Mass Destruction, or even the chemical weapons it was never confirmed to have engineered independently, on targets at a great distance. There were no ICBMs, which are also mistaken to be exclusively nuclear.
It may be time to admit that the story that was clearly sold to the public was a sham, based on faulty intelligence. This is an instance where admitting the mistake a long time ago would have been less damaging to those on the right than pretending that they didn't understand and then being forced to admit it later.
While Iraq did use chemical weapons against Iran in the 1980's war, they destroyed their stockpiles after the 1991 Gulf War, and ended their nuclear and chemical weapons programs. By 1996, they had abandoned efforts to create biological weapons.
This is the finding of the Iraq Survey Group, formed by the Bush administration. Based on their conclusion, the search for WMD was terminated in 2005.
http://factcheck.org/2008/02/no-wmds-in-iraq/
Maybe because the war escalated to those levels mainly because of the possibility of nuclear weapons that could eventually reach American soil. Or maybe because once you talk about weapons of "mass destruction" your brain, yes even the ones of those Rush Limbaugh's listeners, tells you that in order to destroy large things or group of people you kinda need nuclear weapons. The other two kind of weapons are not a threat from the Middle East to the shores of the American Continent.
Bill Karwin -
THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU for reminding those who clearly needed reminding... of long-established fact!
The irrelevant reference to Iraq's use in previous times of those since-destroyed chemical weapons has been a long-standing and deliberate effort of the right to obfuscate this issue and attempt to convince the "low-information" citizens amongst us that the justifications offered for our Iraq War (that appalling waste of life and treasure) were correct. "Don't listen to those nasty libruls when they complain that no WMDs were found, we know that Iraq had them, don't we? (After all, we sold them the WMDs in the 80's)!"
The mountebanks of the right typically use claims of concerns for morality to cover for their own moral depredations. Disgusting as ever.
To be clear, I sense that madstork isn't one of those deliberately trying to make the false claim. Rather, my guess would be that he/she and Meenakshi Sharmavia would be among the many succesfully confused by the right-wing propaganda. I also think JCV means well, but has been distracted into trying to draw an unnecessary distinction between CBW and nuclear weapons - they're all WMDs. Your post, Bill, brought a salutary clarity to this discussion. Well done!
:-)
Does Fox News still claim that there were WMD? (you watch it - I'm not going to). How about wing-nut radio (maybe more listeners than Fox TV)? If not there are important questions about the role of media versus what goes on in people's heads.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weapon_of_mass_destruction
"In 2006 Fox News reported the claims of two Republican lawmakers that WMDs had been found in Iraq, based upon unclassified portions of a report by the National Ground Intelligence Center. Quoting from the report Senator Rick Santorum said..."
I think we can agree on the credibility of a professional make-stuff-up-er like Rick Santorum.
The media has the job of informing America. The media chooses to blame the government for the lack of awareness of national issues in America but then again the media tends to blame everybody...but the media. .
You can only blame the media for so much before you have to start blaming the ignorance and stupidity of the people who follow the media....yes?
You betcha.
But the definition of "the media" has changed dramatically over the past decade. We no longer have 3 networks airing a :30-minute news broadcast once a day, we now have a half-dozen running 24/7.
We don't have a half-dozen big-city newspapers, we have a half-million blogs and news aggregators who can pick and choose what to display to draw the most clicks.
I think we need to come up with a more modern (and accurate) term for how people are getting their information. Or just be more selective and specific in discussing it, to differentiate between the various sources.
Sort of, Producer. But it is still the Big Media, that drives everything, eh, for the most part. The major news stories are broken by Big Media, and the most talked about pundits come from Big Media. From there is ripples out into the ether in waves, and gets transformed. But the source matters.
I found it instructive and elucidating to see Chuck Todd in an interview ask the President why the President wasn't successfully getting his message out. Yep, that was interesting. I actually wanted the President to tell Chuck Todd that the media wasn't doing it's job. The President couldn't do that however, because he is beholding to the media for representation of his "message" that isn't getting out. "Media" is in the catbird seat. Everybody knows folks in the media occupy the catbird seat, whatever that means. Nobody messes with the major media because nobody wants a catbird on their tail ... cause' a catbird is just bound to be conflicted.
I've been aware of this for quite some time. All you have to do is read wingnut comments over at the WP. (Head vice required.) But hell, all you really had to realize is that supply-side economics has been completely refuted by empirical evidence and yet, 50% of Americans are supporting the most extreme supply-sider to date, the Lyin' Sack of Mitt.
It's pretty clear that most people commenting -- media, reporters, bloggers, ... -- simply don't realize the extent of the alternate universe out there. They need to get out more.
Like I said, check out the WP comments, go to a sports forum which has a political page, etc. All the evidence is there. We're in deep, deep shhit, folks.
The Republican Ministry of "Truth" has done a (intentional) number on the reality their mesmerized masses perceive. It ain't pretty.
Those on the right care little or nothing for objective reality. All that matters to them is Ideological Soundness/Theological Correctness.
Even more maddening is that they will, with a straight and earnest face, accuse you of exactly the same. Exasperation is the only response because no evidence, no reasoning will convince the faithful of the wrongness of what is between their ears. It's getting to the point where, like in 1984, you can't really claim that 2 + 2 = 4. Because on some days it might 2 + 2 = 5, or 2 + 2 = 3; it just depends on what you need it to be when you ask what is 2 + 2.
Actually, sometimes 1+1=6!!
One marriage partner plus one marriage (the same one) partner, gifting the world with 4 children. A set (family) of six
All depends on what the numbers map.
Totally shameless plug - but Chris Hayes' new book Twilight of the Elites includes a very illuminating look at how groups working from their own sets of "facts" are contributing to a breakdown of trust, that is in turn one of the main causes of our political stalemate.
Studies show that as the GOP has moved further right in its beliefs, the Dem Party has stayed pretty centrist. GOP is now operating with inaccurate data and doubling down on demonstrably false statements and beliefs, and the Dems are stuck because the GOP just (figuratively) sticks their fingers in their ears and goes LA-LA-LA-LA I'M NOT LISTENING (to the facts).
@Producer: Yes, any experience with the head-in-sand (or head-up-as$) people will quickly convince even the most stubbornly optimistic of humanity's potential that it is a lost cause to engage them. I've given their "facts" and worldview several names: FoxThink, wingthink, ..., you get the picture. It's not necessarily Fox-specific but meant to characterize the entire right wing alternate reality. It is so bad that you can be blistering them in a economic discussion when, out of the blue, they deny figures from the Bureau of Labor Statistics or the Federal Reserve or the OMB or CBO. As long as it doesn't support their faith-based ideology they feel entirely justified in cavalierly dismissing it using as justification stuff like "you can't rely on figures gathered by the government." Yes, this country is THERE.
I don't really need Hayes' book to tell me about it, but I was interested in his book for other reasons.
And , as DisgustedWithItAll says on here , our political Representatives not standing up to the conservatives BS is exasperating the situation , when dem leadership , including obama , roll over for people who make bat $hit crazy claims , it legitimizes these people , then the press will listen to them , then it is in the vernacular ....We all know it feeds on each other back and forth..But if we had dems standing up to these false claims , and the people who make them , putting up an actual fight , the press and voters would have no choice but to listen to an alternative to gop lying
But dems do not want to offended the crazies , and if a dem does take a strong stand , well they are looked down on by the passive dems , ( the adult in the room PUKE!!!!),,, dont rock the boat , we can not stand up for the peoples constitutional government , because then conservatives will say mean things about us , so we have to run and hide from our own platform , the same goes for standing up for workers rights , and healthcare reform , a lot of the problem is dem reps not having back bone , while the crazies get the microphone and sell copy
This historical blindness and ignorance across the board is just amazing.
Everyone knew, before the invasion, that Iraq had no WMDs. We saw and heard the inspectors's reports to Congress and the UN live on CSPAN-2!! Anyone who believed in WMDs after that was being willfully ignorant and stupid. Or cynically manipulative. In other words, a Repuglican.
The only conclusion that can be gleaned from the republican polls? Mass hypnosis of weak mind's that watch nothing but Foxnot News.
yup, Mass hypnosis. If you say it enough times they will believe it.
I call it 'functional insanity'. I'm not totally happy with the term, but the idea is that a person with a head crammed full of enough fake information will be as incapable of truly rational thought as someone who is clinically insane.
By the way, for those interested, research has been done on the most effective methods of debunking myths and changing the thoughts of those who believe false things. It's not easy. No matter how ridiculous the belief is, wrong beliefs are hard to correct. It's especially difficult in areas you'd think it'd be easiest: climate science and global warming.
Here's where you can get some handy information on it:
http://www.skepticalscience.com/Debunking-Handbook-now-freely-available-download.html
It's worth a read-through in my opinion.
Exhuming up the rotting carcass of Ayn Rand, and publicly dissolving her bones in acid, would be a good start. ( Kensico Cemetery in Valhalla, N.Y, since you asked. )
Wonder if the same people that gave this poll gave the exit polls in WI?
It must be the fluoride in the water supply- sapping our precious bodily fluids.
Yep, Mass hypnosis, the fluoride and mad cow!
So Iraq never had weapons of Mass destruction? Wasn't part of the IAEA and UN Deal that if they destroyed them they had to do it in a verifiable way? Did anyone ever find or see this evidence? I don't support the invasion of Iraq but we know for a fact that prior to the invasion he had WMD's that he never proved that he got rid of. I don't know how prior but he used them in Halabjala and he used them on the Iranians. Also, we gave them to him so pick on the dems in the graph because without a doubt Saddam Hussein had WMD prior to the invasion. We just don't know how much prior and yes the Bushies we're playing with the intelligence. On a side not. Obama just used Executive Priviledge on something he says he never knew about, his top DEA official doesn't know if Crack is worse than weed and our deficit is 102% of our GDP. You've become quite disappointing Rachel.
Huh? Try staying on topic.
@Mike - If I remember correctly, the UN Commission tasked with finding evidence of Iraqi WMDs was unable to find any (remember Hans Blix?). The Shrub went ahead with the invasion anyhow - he never had any intention of *not going ahead with it, because the presence of Iraqi WMD had nothing to do with his reasons for invading Iraq. What's more, it was apparently Ronald Reagan's administration who was responsible for helping Hussein start the program - http://www.fff.org/comment/com0406g.asp
I thought Atheism was the great weapon of Mass destruction.
(Catholic humor.)
In 2003, Newsweek reported about the testimony from Hussein Kamel. He was Saddam's son-in-law and was in charge of Iraq's WMD. He oversaw the destruction of ALL WMD in Iraq after Gulf War I. He defected and told British intelligence and the CIA of the destruction of all WMD, so George W knew Saddam did NOT have WMD. Either he chose to ignore this information, or he considered it to be incorrect, or he just wanted to attack Iraq.
It is Mad Cow Rachel. That is the only answer why so many Americans are acting all paranoid.
Patricia, you are a putz. Sincerely hoping you haven't polluted the gene pool during your pointless existence. Have a nice day!
John Cairns, with all that has been said on these comments you call me a putz for joking? Do you eat a lot of stake?
I think the problem here, pat, is that you didn't put a comma between "Cow" and "Rachel". That changes the meaning of what you probably were intending to say, at least to anyone who only took a quick look before reacting.
Your right it does look like I called her a mad cow especially if you don't know mad cow is a brain disease. thanks for pointing that out.
You're welcome.
This illustrates the results of the dumbing down of America as shown by the complete lack of intelligence and education of the so-called "low information voters" that support the GOP at every turn.
Gonna be tough to compete in the marketplace of ideas if Conservatives can just make up stuff--and believe it more and more firmly even as contrary information is presented to them. That shows its not a matter of education--they reject the inconvenient truths even when they're aware of them. We may as well just move to marginalize the "anti-reality" crowd and get back to the business of governing.
Perhaps they would listen if we told them Mitt was an alien.
Patricia - do we have any proof that Willard is *not an alien? See? Both sides can play that game!
Listen, we here in the Southwest KNOW Mittens is an alien.
Born in Mexico, on the family estate. Smuggled into the US and given a faked-up "birth certificate." The Truth they don't want you to know!
Willard Mittens Romney: El candidato manchuriano. El agente de la reconquista. America, beware!!!
Unfortunately the low information crowd is getting larger and larger. I live in the echo chamber, and they totally believe the fair and ballanced lie. When you call them on it they get irrate.
What do you expect from the party that constantly has candidate after candidate say God told them to run for office. When you believe the greatest lie ever told the WMD Lie seems pretty plausible.
G*d just told me to go take a nap. I like my G*d!
I think that people are losing the ability to use their reasoning. We need to think outside the wolf pack. I mean, we should be using our critical thinking skills and not be victims of the media but go by what has substantial evidence and a strong basis.
The Republican party is ashamed of this WMD mess. They are attempting to retaliate for their own ignorance. With all of the success of the POTUS on foreign policies has made a mockery of their party. The POTUS succeeded at a task that took them eight years to try and do and succeeded in to capture and kille the top ten on the most wanted list in two years. They feel like fools!!! It's beyond me that they would doubt a lawyer and professor of law to not be compotent enough to not understand policies and laws.
What happen to the country I grew up in. Are there sane people left in the USA.
I guess my value of education and knowledge is lost to the GOP and tea baggers.
From the start when Bush was trying to sell his line of bull@!$%#, I knew it did not fly beyond his own bank account and that of the oil companies. The message of why to invade changed every week.
The earth is also flat. We'll be hearing this one all too soon.
Yep, Mass hypnosis, the fluoride, mad cow, the earth is flat and Obama is trying to push the republicans off the edge. I also am 6'10' tall 34-24-34 figure and a wealthy Heiress. Ha
And Rep Issa will be holding hearings on the shape of the earth soon.
patricia: I think I just found my Goddess!
Bush and Cheney never wanted to catch Bin Laden because he was the Boogie Man they could scare all these low information people with when ever they wanted to. That is how they got a second term and took away our rights to privacy. They used the same Boogie man stragety with Saddam and the WMD's. They wanted these wars to go on and on because it made them and their friends wealthy beyond their wildest dreams. Then when they were done with their shift they punched out, rode into the sunset and left the mess to be cleaned up by a Democrat which is how the Republicants do it time and time again.
So true. Someone needs to look into the amount of money Barbara Bush, and Channey made.
That would be funny if it were not so pitifully sad. As I posted yesterday on my FB page, "There appears to be a positive correlation between Democrats and education level," or something like that.
Ha, don't you know we democrats are brainwashed by those evil schools.
If all you listen to is FOX ... "If you say the same thing over and over .. it must be true." That's ok .. I remember hearing a poll about a couple of years ago asking if the Pres. was born in the US .. and then asking them if Hawaii was a state .. 60% some odd of them said Hawaii wasn't a state. They believe what they want to believe because they just can't understand what happened to their of America. They forget that it's our America. Waiting for all the moderate Rep's out thereto get a bck bone .. until then .. we will have to continue to re-state fact after fact .. even if it means going on FOX.
Re-state vote democrat over and over.
Ah-hah! Gotcha: The poll said "pre-war" but it didn't say *when* pre-war, and therefore refers to the entire period of history after the creation of Iraq (by the league of Nations with *no* regard for ethnic diversity) until the invasion. We *know* they had WMDs in the 80's *because we sold them to them* so they could kill Iranians and Kurdish people. Republicans FTW!
Actually, it said 'when the U.S. invaded in 2003.'
"The poll, constructed by Dartmouth government professor Benjamin Valentino and conducted by YouGov from April 26 to May 2, found that fully 63 percent of Republican respondents still believed that Iraq had weapons of mass destruction when the U.S. invaded in 2003. By contrast, 27 percent of independents and 15 percent of Democrats shared that view."
But, you make a very good argument for not accepting what you read without reading the primary source for one's self. If we all did that, maybe we wouldn't have legislative bodies behaving so irrationally.