Ignorant people suck and those who fail to think things through as well. These categories are not synonymous with "holy rollers." I, too, think this poor lady was just stupid and then opened her mouth and let other people know.

Sad. Maybe she can be cured.

Too many religious bigots think because the Constitution was written in 1776 that America's supposed to stay the same as it was in 1776.

RobDon: There is a reason for the saying, "You can't fix stupid." It's because you can't fix stupid. ;)

Unfortunately, there is no cure for stupid.

I for one, as a Christian, support vouchers. I also support the vouchers for religious schools for religions that are not Christian.

Chris, the Constitution was NOT written in 1776! Your point is valid, but, your date is wrong.

As a Christian, I've already noticed this hypocrisy.
Atheists and others have also been guilty of the same hypocrisy.
But I'm more upset with my "own people", since we're supposed to set the proper example for the rest of you...

Oh TJ.....you are so full of it. I do not need you to be a "proper example" for me. Who the hell do you people think you are?

Atheists - huh? I don't get your point. But thanks for setting an example for the rest of us, without your guidance, we surely would get it wrong.

The rest of us.....? Feel superior much????

I was trying to point out that we Christians are supposed to be examples to the rest of you of how humans are supposed to live. So hypocrisy on our part is a major sin.
I apologize on my Christian "sister's" behalf to you for her hypocrisy, though her apologizing and improving her life to be increasingly less hypocritical is more important than me doing so.

Diego Sainz's view is correct if the following 2 things happen:
1- the US Constitution is obeyed, where the funding comes from the state's government, not from the federal government
2- the religions of atheism, agnosticism, and satanism all be allowed to be included

I prefer the Constitutional approach and if you do too, vote in Ron Paul 2012! :D

Also @TJ Freezn,

Assuming that you do in fact, consider yourself a "Role Model" (Of Christianity I presume), Maybe, you should then, enlighten us by giving an example of the "Hypocrisy" that you've "seen (demonstrated) in the "Atheist's" that you speak of.

Can't wait to have a pagan/goddess school, funded by tax dollars! Goddess bless America!

Nancy, there are pagan beliefs, like Wiccanism, that are funded by tax dollars, just no actual school itself that does so.
(the difference between individual courses versus all the courses)

And Kelli,
some atheists (not all) have been teaching for evolution and against creationism but have an issue with others teaching for creationism and against evolution.
That is hypocrisy when done in taxpayer funded schools.
Mind you, when some Christians (or other religious beliefs) teach for creationism and against evolution, but have an issue with others teach for evolution and against creationism, that is also hypocrisy.

If you still don't see the hypocrisy of any of the opposing religious groups (atheism and agnosticism and satanism are also religious beliefs), then I can't help you any further.
Thankfully, I have met people in at least some of those beliefs (including atheism) who are not hypocrites about teaching :D

Before chirstians there where jews, and before jews there where muslums, and before them isrealites so why do you feel as a christian you need to set an example for the rest of us? and who are the rest of us? and from what I've noticed over time Christian have set very few good examples of anything

Atheism is a religion like bald is a hair style. A religion cannot be inferred from NON-BELIEF. Please, try and get this concept, as it is very important. There is no Church of Atheism.

Actually RawIntentions, the religion of Islam came from "prophet" Mohammed, who got most of his beliefs from his exnun wife and her Jesuit priest (both Roman Catholics).

So no, first there was whatever (Adam & Eve),
then different pagan beliefs, then Judaism,
then Babylonianism (by the Chaldeans),
then the completed version of Judaism (known as Christianity BEFORE 100 C.E./A.D.),
then Babylonianism infiltrated the completed Judaism groups (aka Christianity) and replaced their customs with their own but used their terminologies instead,
and then they taught Mohammed to start the religion of Islam and converted those people into Muslims.

GCArlt, the belief in a nonbelief is still a belief, therefore it's still a religion.

Atheism is NOT a religion. Not by any definition of the word. Agnosticism, in itself, is not a religion, either.

Evolution is science. Creationism is religion. There is absolutely no scientific evidence for creationism. Therefore, it should not be taught as science.

Daryl, the only group that is sorta on the fence on qualifying for being called a religion or not, is agnosticism.
Whereas atheism definitely IS a religion:

//RELIGION: a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith//

^ from Merriam-Webster's Dictionary
...this means that atheism is a religion since atheists are so ardent about their cause, principles, and belief in no god/God and have faith (confidence) that there is no god/God
Whereas for the agnostics, it depends on each one, since I've met many who are not ardent about their belief about not knowing if there is a god/God or not.

Mr./Mrs. Freezn,

Atheism & Evolution are a NOT Religion.

Evolution is SCIENCE,..... Seeee??? Ya'll keep mixin stuff up darlin!!

Apparently, Mr/Mrs. Freezn actually feels that he/she is superior enough to re-define the meaning of words!!

Sooo,.... In reality,.... (The REAL, reality) NO Hypocrisy exists.

To TJ,

First dear, you might want to get your "facts" straight. Muhammeds (PBUH), wife was never a "ex-nun", and according to Islam - it was "revealed to him by Allah" itself. As for Christianity, I read in an earlier post that you state that you are Christian - before you repeat most of what you wrote regarding "Christianity" I suggest that you read up on it. And if your previous comments were meant as snark or sarcasm you might want to work on it a bit more..

A reminder for Kelli Rustin:

{{{//RELIGION: a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith//

^ from Merriam-Webster's Dictionary
...this means that atheism is a religion since atheists are so ardent about their cause, principles, and belief in no god/God and have faith (confidence) that there is no god/God}}}

Zora, I was not being sarcastic.

Muhammed brought the religion of Islam to the Arabs.
Before he did so, they either were pagans, true Christians, or the failing Roman Catholics religion of fake Christianity.
...I could debate on how Muhammed practically got his info, but first we need to agree that before he shared his new belief, that there were zero Muslims in the world.

But the Constitution wasn't written in 1776...

...and that fact is VERY important to remember because 98% of Americans forget about the Articles of Confederation. When I get in arguments over "states rights" and the dangers of a big central government, I like to point out that we've tried it their way before and it didn't work out.

Fred Orth

Chris, the Constitution was NOT written in 1776! Your point is valid, but, your date is wrong.

• !

#1.6 - Fri Jul 6, 2012 1:16 PM EDT

Sorry, 1787.

Tj Freezn - you seem like a sincere, well meaning person, but most of what you have said is totally wrong. Let's start with "the belief in a nonbelief is still a belief, therefore it's still a religion." This is demonstrably NOT true. If this were true then not believing in pink fairies would be a religion. Would you argue that to be the case? No, to not believe in god doesn't take any faith, which is a core concept in a religion which is the belief in some entity or entities in spite of no concrete evidence of that entity's existence. Even using your dictionary definition atheism isn't a religion, because it doesn't rely on faith. It is a lack of faith. No atheist that I know would say with certainty (faith) that no god exists. We only say that given the lack of evidence of any human conception of god being real there is no reason to believe in such conceptions. If god were to walk up to me and say "hey I'm god, look what I can do" and do something miraculous then I might believe, although I would be more likely to think that this was a person or being with abilities that I just don't understand. So far, nothing in the "bible" has been shown to have any basis in history other than peripherally.

It is NOT hypocritical to advocate teaching evolution, but not teaching creationism because the former is science while the latter is religion. Our public schools should be teaching science, not myths. Even if scientists find evidence that proves evolution to be totally wrong, which has not happened yet, the alternative would NOT be "god did it." One of the reasons that American students are so far behind the rest of the world in math and science is due to the insistence of religious fanatics in trying to cast doubt on scientific theories that might in some way conflict with their beliefs. There is no way to test creationism or to examine evidence that confirms it as an appropriate explanation for anything. In any case, which form of creationism should be taught if it is to be taught? There are hundreds of similar, but slightly different creation myths throughout the world.

I have to laugh when people like you call Roman Catholics "fake christians" when they were the ones who invented the religion. The so called gospels were selected by committee from many candidate stories, all of which were written hundreds of years after Jesus' supposed life and many of which are in direct contradiction with each other. Is this what you think represents absolute truth? And Mohammed created Islam based on Jewish laws because he thought that he could get Jews to come over to his new religion. Only after he was rejected by the high priests did he add the concept of jihad to his "religion of peace."

RobDon: There is a reason for the saying, "You can't fix stupid." It's because you can't fix stupid. ;)

Lmao. "There's not a pill you can take, there's not a class you can go to...stupid is foreva! (forever)"

TJ - Oh dear, if you're supposed to be the "example" we're all done for, LOL! BTW - It's not called "Wiccanism"! For crying out loud, you are embarrassing yourself on this entire thread. (I'm embarrassed for you, and I don't even know you, nor am I a Christian). Please consider doing your homework before you touch a keyboard again.

Nancy-390969, right on! If there will be vouchers issued, they will apply to all private schools. May the Lord AND Lady bless America!

Craig -

I agree with most of what you wrote but not all of it is correct. There is general agreement among scholars (including those who are not believers) that at least three of the canonical gospels (Mark, Matthew and Luke, plus possibly Thomas) were written in the first century CE, and John not long after. I would recommend the book Did Jesus Exist by Bart Ehrmann, who incidentally was a fundamentalist as a teenager and is now an agnostic leaning toward atheism. (Sometimes the right-wingers are right - studying the Bible too closely can make you lose your faith. :)

Also, you mention the "high priests" rejecting Islam. The Jewish leaders (and their followers) certainly did, but there were no priests after the destruction of the Temple in 70 CE.

Craig -thank you for input and your higher level of study it's a pleasure to read a post from an intellectual level that far exceeds most of the poorly represented opinions in this forum.

Does that mean if I'm not a member of any of the "accepted" churches I can get a tax write off.

The sign post says it all!

Robin Hood in reverse, steal from the poor, give to religious.....WWJD?

I am a Christian, but I believe in the separation. As a Teacher, I could show my self as a good and kind person, but I never imposed my religion on any student.

It seems to be an increasing prerequisite for GOP leadership positions.

They learned from the Democrats on that. Empty headed leadership is the way to go. That way lobbyist can put whatever ideas in there head's they would prefer.

Oh, so your into the blame game are you? How very fair of you. People make thier own mistakes, it in non-political. It just is.

Seriously, what part of "religious" did she not get? You can't say that the vouchers only go to the Christian faith and that's it. If people who are not Christian that have different faiths apply for those vouchers to go to the religious school of their choice, they can still get them. Otherwise, it is religious bigotry.

@Diego, there is equivalent democrat to Sarah Palin, Michele Bachmann, George W., Scott Walker, Bobby J! Sorry, spineless democrats yes, imbeciles that haven't a clue, selfish, and sooo NOT into reality - not on the democratic side! You might want to double-check your "facts", no really....

I think you meant to say 'there is no equivalent democrat to Sara Palin, Michele Bachmann.... ' Am I right?

This is an old as from Mad TV with an alien running for president that looks amazingly like Romney:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GLSlGmVrmuM

Nevermind, posted to the wrong thread somehow.

That was a good one Kris.

Sounds like the return to Nazi Germany to me. Indoctrinate?

Chances are she'd be ok with that. Folks of her political stripe tend to be Christian Zionists, only because by their reckoning, Israel has to be there before Jesus can return.

Uh, would you mind elaborating upon "some of the founding fathers were Jewish." as to whom you are referring to.

Some people confuse biological Jews as automatically being Jews by spiritual belief.
No, many biological Jews have atheism as their religion, not Judaism.

Again-atheism is not a religion-it is the opposite. If you can't see that a lack of belief is not a belief, then you have no thinking skills, critical or otherwise.

Quoting myself for GCCArlt:

{{{//RELIGION: a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith//

^ from Merriam-Webster's Dictionary
...this means that atheism is a religion since atheists are so ardent about their cause, principles, and belief in no god/God and have faith (confidence) that there is no god/God}}}

Atheists have no beliefs. Not one. Though I prefer the term Humanist.

Tj sweetie. You need to shut your ass now if all you can do to back up your idiotic nonsense is to quote the dictionary. Let the adults talk. You just sit there quietly, or go tithe or something.

Tj - I find it interesting that you choose to speak for Jews too now. As someone who was born Jewish, I find your comment "many biological Jews have atheism as their religion, not Judaism" condescending and presumptuous. While I consider myself culturally Jewish and religiously atheist, the majority of my relatives are still active religious Jews. You can stop quoting the dictionary to support you misconception that somehow atheism is a religion, because it has the word "faith" in it, and atheism is NOT an act of faith and therefore not a religion.

While none of those officially considered founding fathers were Jewish, Jewish merchants did provide funding for the revolution, and many fought against the British. Of course, this country was not founded on ANY religion, with our constitution only mentioning religion to preclude its use. While not Jewish, many of the founding fathers were deists, and some of those would probably be considered atheists today.

What the heck is a "biological Jew?" Biologically, Jewish people are homo sapiens sapiens, just like all of the other human beings.

Did you also see where TJ referred to "the completed version of Judaism (known as Christianity BEFORE 100 C.E./A.D.)" No, Jews are NOT "incomplete" unless they convert to Christianity. I'm tempted to start referring to Christians as "incomplete Muslims" - or maybe "incomplete Mormons."

I also got a kick out of his reference to Muhammed's "ex-nun wife" (which someone else has already called out) and her JESUIT priest. Muhammed lived in the from 570-632. The Society of Jesus (aka Jesuits) was founded in 1534 - 900 years after his death.

As someone once said, “It is better to remain silent at the risk of being thought a fool, than to talk and remove all doubt of it.”

There is the Jewish religion, and the Jewish ethnicity.......

Jews think that if your mother was Jewish, you have to be a Jew. I guess that means there's a Jewish gene.

I Judaism the line is past through the mother because, "the mother we know" which dates back to the middle ages and before when entire nations were captured in wars. Women who bore children from rape couldn't name the father so the line became passed through the mother.

TJ: I think I understand what you were writing in your original post. Did you mean to say Christianity preaches morality and understanding, yet does not model sometimes? You are correct when you say all people are guilty of wrongdoing, but a religious affiliation doesn't necessarily define morality simply because that's what is preached (remember Constantine and the Christian crusades, etc). Be careful when citing sources that reinforce you views, as well; I think you're muddying your point by missing important information that negates your statements (i.e. atheism is listed as an antonym for religion on Merriam-Webster's site. The word atheism contains the prefix -a and therefore means "not." An atheist would be "not theist.").

And now she knows exactly how I feel knowing that my tax dollars might be used to indoctrinate a bunch of ignorant little hypocrites just like her.

Most people that hate other religions are indeed ignorants that never took time to learn anything else but its own no matter how limited their brain get. People should learn about others believes and choose a religion that make them feel confortable in their spiritual growing and doing so they may realized how simmilar many religions are. I am talking about RELIGIONS not cults or groups that hide behind one to advance their political / geopolitical or financial golds. In order to get respect, in general, you have to GIVE respect. Always learn what the other is talking about first.

Or a Democrat.

or gay!

...or all of the above...

Or SUSPECTED of any of the above.

Long freakin' list, yo.

Best thread on this forum! All of the above, or suspected to be one or more of 'all of the above'.

Just Brilliant.

The reps will add to it at the drop of the hat if they think it will get them some votes. They don't have to really believe to make it sound RIGHT! Your forgot one or two, on a pension, welfare, food stamps, ss, medicaid or unemployed, etc.

Isn't the real issue this part: "unaccountable private schools, some of which don't appear to have curricula at all."

Yes, which is why Steve had an entire post on that topic yesterday. But the interaction of this appalling plan with religious bigotry is a significant story, too.

Exactly.

Personally, I can't understand why some Americans get so hung up on the intent of the Founders.

The system set up by the Founders deliberated excluded vast swaths of the population from voting. Hell, even Thomas Paine, considered by some one of the Founding Fathers of the Revolution because of his Pamphlet "Common Sense", which promoted the idea of Freedom from the British Crown amongst the general population, was excluded from voting on the grounds that he was not born in America.

Canadians don't get themselves into a tizzy over the intentions of Sir. John A. MacDonald. Why should it matter what some guys over 200 years ago intended?

@ Kari Snyder,

They extract some "snippet" & USE it to hedge their OWN agenda. Usually NOT Democrats cuz most of us actually do have an understanding, respect & appreciation of & for the complexities of the US Constitution. Sorta like they (Neo-Con's) USE another important document to serve their own narrow purposes,.... Hmmmm,..... what could it be???

thing is, most of the people who are so idiotic as to put the Founding Fathers up on pedestals never read The Federalist Papers. Or all the Federal laws based on the Constitution. Not paying taxes is not listed in the Constitution as a right. Go do that and argue before a judge. You'll be just another loony right wing stooge in the Federal pen. Which might not be a good place for most GOPers....

Corey,

Excellent point,

It's covert in it's use of Religion as a shield.

It's systemic shift of values. In its insidiousness, it appears to be subtle & harmless. Starting with how & what is chosen as the content in textbooks to deregulation that allows increasingly UN-TRADITIONAL Religious & moral values (Greed, intolerance, selfishness) to creep into the consciousness.

The caveat being, the hard fought freedom that they take advantage of to further their own agenda are in fact, the very freedom that they wish to "re-define".

This isn't the first time they've tried. It's just the farthest that they've come. We've allowed them to plant their roots.

We NOW know what they look like & smell like.....

If they try to "re-define & twist a "right or freedom" in order to limit YOUR rights or justify limiting or taking away someone ELSE's rights?.....

Louisiana has a few problems due to its insane legal system. you have to provide for all your bastards in your will for one. Based on French law. Oooooh. That's a good one for all the GOPers who back Jindal.

You might want to alert your right wing friends to this conspiracy before the Tampa Convention. That must be why Wall Street and the Billionaire Boys Club want to spend $1.5-$2 billion on this election, it will be the last one they have to buy.

They bought the voting machines. What else do you have to say?

Too late, some already got in.

Yup...they got in all right. But we have to wonder who the real ignoramuses are: those who got elected or those who elected them! Ugh...I'm from a state of ignoramuses-Arizona.

ha ha ha ha ha ha !! Thank you !!

What is really scarey to me is the facts that in the UK in their last election, the radical right wing Fundamentalists got less than 1% of the votes. In NEvada, Sharron Angle got almost 45% of the votes. Sure, she lost, but if we have 45% voting for nutcases, we're in trouble.

Finally, some sense.

Or if a church amasses amounts of money above and beyond a business entity of its size. Start buying Caddies for your pastor, you're no longer a non profit, you're a snake oil salesman.

Actually, Reagan was tutored by The Hoover Institute (near but not affiliated with Stanford University) for months before the election. He was given his lines to say.

In Louisiana, we consider Politics the gentlemen's sport. And by gentlemen, we mean underhanded conniving weasels...er... nutria? It's a fine gambling sport like horseracing, of course.

Edwin Edwards? Richard Leche? It's a game of not getting caught, not of doing right. "Good Ol' Boy Politics" has never been good, but is very old indeed.

I don't think the 'Founders' had any idea that one day someone other than a Christian of some sort, would be here at all, or at least not in large enough groups to matter.. So yeah, now faith-based initiatives could fund Muslim programs, and we just don't know what they're up to. So, I guess do away with ALL faith based initiatives, which is sad.

Really??? I tend to give the founders a great deal of credit on this topic... especially the guys from Rhode Island, where there was true religious freedom and hundreds of Jews and Muslims during the colonial and revolutionary eras.

To many of them in my book.

"...many Christians do not consider Unitarians Christian, but humanists."

Looking back to the time of Jefferson, Unitarianism (and Universalism) were considered to be Christian. What "...many Christians..." consider, especially their opinions and definitions of others religious expression, is as irrelevant now as it was then.

I'll have to tell my Christian Unitarian friends they're really not Christian.

Starwind said so.

Giggle.

Don't forget the Jeffersonian bible, where he took a razor to the bible and cut out every reference to miracles or the supernatural.

History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance of which their civil as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purposes.

-Thomas Jefferson to Alexander von Humboldt, Dec. 6, 1813.

Christianity neither is, nor ever was a part of the common law.

-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Dr. Thomas Cooper, February 10, 1814

Amen from New Jersey Amen!!!

Roberto, it's the death of public education. Funnel the desperately needed funds away from the public schools to slowly strangle them financially. For profit schools will then take their place, and quality education will only be available for the very rich. Corporate America would love that. An uneducated electorate is much more easily managed.

Just because people have those precious vouchers in their hands doesn't mean that they can send their kids to any private school in which the parents want to enroll them. Private schools can turn anyone away, regardless of the vouchers they have. If a student is behaviorally or academically challenged, the private school will turn them away.