Associated Press
Pennsylvania Secretary of the Commonwealth Carole Aichele doesn't understand the law she has to enforce.
The controversial, legally dubious voter-ID scheme in Pennsylvania has struggled quite a bit lately, but if anything, the issues plaguing the law are becoming more serious, not less.
Last week, Pennsylvania Gov. Tom Corbett (R), who signed the voter-suppression measure into law, fielded a reporter's question on the subject, and couldn't remember the forms of ID he's requiring his constituents to have. Yesterday, this forgetfulness spread.
Pennsylvania Secretary of the Commonwealth Carole Aichele, testifying Tuesday during a state trial on the state's controversial voter ID law, said she wasn't sure about the details of the law, but stood by her unsupported claim that 99 percent of voters had valid identification.
"I don't know what the law says," Aichele said under questioning, according to CBS.
Aichele also couldn't provide any evidence that 99 percent of voters already have a valid form of ID, as the state has claimed.
It's worth emphasizing that the Secretary of the Commonwealth -- in effect, Pennsylvania's version of a Secretary of State -- is responsible for overseeing the state's elections process.
In other words, three months before voters head to the polls in a historic campaign cycle, Pennsylvania's top elections official doesn't understand a new voter-suppression law imposed by Republicans, and can't defend her own bogus claims about that law.
This ought to inspire confidence in the integrity of the state voting process, right?
In the meantime, Aviva Shen reported yesterday on the possibility of "chaos" in Pennsylvania elections this year, in large part because of the "impossible logistical burden of getting voters the proper identification in the next 100 days."
Remember, the new voting restrictions were entirely unnecessary. The tactics are ostensibly intended to prevent "fraud," but state officials recently conceded there's been no reported in-person voter fraud in Pennsylvania and there isn't likely to be in 2012, either.
In other words, Pennsylvania Republicans passed the voter-ID law to prevent the scourge of voter fraud, which they now admit, formally and in writing, doesn't really exist.
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More proof that your republican party is merely a clearing house for legislation written by such groups as ALEC. Kind of an overthrow of the government if you ask me.
Obviously no one else here knows what's in the law either. Could a lawyer confirm these are sufficient ID to vote?
http://www.legis.state.pa.us/WU01/LI/LI/US/HTM/2012/0/0018..HTM
Do the work yourself.
No. You are the opposite of correct. That's stuff that was stricken from the existing Election Code by the new law. The boldfaced stuff in the act is what was added, the bracketed stuff was deleted.
shooter gets shot down in flames again
the gop , who can never get a fact right , claim NO ONE else knows what they are talking about , hilarious
Perhaps if they told us what drugs they are on we might .
It's already been said shooter, but if the forms of ID you listed were still in the law then there would be no issue. Unfortunately the new law eliminates most of those and for what reason? The only reason to make it harder to vote is to try to prevent people who might vote against your party from voting, as confirmed by Mike Turzai. It is NOT appropriate for a person responsible for overseeing voting in the State to use made up statistics regarding who would be able to vote based on the law they just passed.
We're in luck, Penn now has a no-doc photo ID...
http://www.portal.state.pa.us/portal/http;//www.portal.state.pa.us;80/portal/server.pt/gateway/PTARGS_0_891811_1271990_0_0_18/rls-DOS-DOSVoterIDCard-072012.pdf
One way or the other it seems this is another manufactured outrage du jour designed to manipulate the weak of mind.
Wrong again. Pensylvania does not HAVE a non-doc photo ID, it WILL HAVE a non-doc photo ID staring August 27 - if all goes well and there are no unforeseen delays. In many PA counties, where PennDOT (our DMV) offices are open only one day a week, that will leave nine or ten business days for approximately 1.2 million voters (according to both the Department of State and the independent, scientific survey that was conducted in June) to obtain the ID they need to vote.
What about Student ID ?
Oh, excellent. By August 27, they hope to remove the one, out of the half dozen or so, unnecessary practical barriers they threw up in front of their citizens' exercise of their Constitutional right to vote that looked the worst in the press because it ensnared little old white ladies.
I'm sure the ever helpful folks at the Pennsylvania DMV, well-staffed, high-morale operation that it undoubtedly is following the budget cuts necessitated by the Teahadist legislature's tax cuts for rich people, will totally be on top of this when it happens and won't send away a single person by mistake because they didn't get the message or got it in garbled form.
Sorry but I think the nay-sayers are wrong. In the absence of of cites supporting their views, and considering that the legislation language says "effective immediately" I'm going to go with Google.
@Craig - 711 That's right, there is no real issue here. Until I get confirmation from a reliable source that what I've dug up is correct, I can't call Benen et al flat out fabricators. So I'll leave it up to you to judge why all the drama is being dished.
What a surprise. Mr. Mitty gets his teeth kicked in and isn't convinced. That's what life has to be when your a wingnut troll.
“[They] agreed that it was neither possible nor necessary to educate people who never questioned anything.”
Somewhere, Joseph Heller is laughing his A*terisk off. . .
OUCH !
""I don't know what the law says," Aichele said under questioning,..."
Do rethugnikans realize that they are in office and therefore are "REPRESENTING the PEOPLE" that voted them into office? For this reason and so many others (incompetence) you should be fired by those same voters! As the GOTP has already admitted there is NO proof of "voter fraud" the courts need to strike these disenfranchisement laws down.
Vote out the GOTP from everywhere in November!
They're representing the people who paid to put them in office.
Yet another example of mindless carrying out of instructions dispensed by The Party. Mitt the Stanceless will be the same way.
How do folks voting with an absentee ballot verify their identity??
Might it be a short term tactic (assuming the abominable laws are upheld and enforced) to distribute liberally (as in 'abundantly', but the other meaning works, too) requests for absentee ballots in neighborhoods adversely impacted by the voter ID law?
Actually that is addressed in the law. The voter is identified by either DL number, or the last four digits of the voters SSN, or other document as listed in para 2.
Thanks, David
No, PA has specific requirements to be eligible to vote by absentee ballot. You can't just decide that's what you want to do. More info here: http://www.longdistancevoter.org/pennsylvania
There's also info on that page about what you have to do to prove your identity before you can vote by absentee ballot. There's no loophole in the law here, I'm sorry to say.
This was taken from the Voter ID law not the absentee voter provision. They apparently made provisions for it for absentee voter ballots.
My point being trying to vote by absentee ballot to avoid having to show the required ID is not an option for most people because there are very specific and limited circumstances under which PA residents are allowed to vote by absentee ballot.
Yet another example of the confusion involved on the subject , the gop love the regulations when it comes to voting or safety net programs
David , how do they verify the licence numbers on the absentee ballot? The voting machine certainly would not read that , not arguing , just wondering
I really have no idea to be honest. I was simply referencing the information at hand. I would assume it would be compared to the information on file for that individual to assure it matches name, address etc. Is that done mechanically, electronically, by hand? (shrugs) this is PA and from my perspective that's damn near a foreign country as it is. We're still waiting for the DOJ to figure out that our own legislation matches that of a state the SCOTUS has already deemed was constitutional.
A top Republican even admitted in a comment to Republicans that was reported by the press that this was aimed at delivery PA into the states who would put Romney in the White House. Is this a coup in slow motion?
Can you cite a source?
http://www.indecisionforever.com/blog/2012/07/24/pennsylvania-lawmakers-have-a-strange-way-of-defending-their-laws
There is an article about the interview.
And another:
http://articles.philly.com/2012-07-12/news/32633447_1_state-carol-aichele-voter-id-absentee-ballots
Seriously? You needed it sourced? Or did you just want it there to counter troll linkings.
Seriously... I'd like to know that facts are not being pulled out of the ass as so often happens. Call it curiosity if you'd like but yeah a source helps on occasion. Though it might help to have at least one independent reference...
You must have been living in a cave to not have heard the quote from Mike Turzai, head of the Pennsylvania republican party, who said "Voter ID, which is gonna allow Governor Romney to win the state of Pennsylvania, done.” Yes, that is a direct quote of a statement from a video that has been around for weeks. It seems to make it pretty clear what the goal of this new law was. Notice he said nothing about voter fraud. In fact if you listen to his entire speech voter fraud is never mentioned.
Yeah, I saw a clip of him saying exactly that... problem I have is that is the only thing it had in it. I'd like to view it in full context. I'm not saying he's biased but I don't buy that it's some vast conspriacy. I'd simply like all the information before passing judgement.
In one sentence he pitched the win for the voter ID law in PA, ahead of that was a comment about abortion.
David: Here you go.
"Pro-Second Amendment? The Castle Doctrine, it's done, first pro-life legislation -- abortion facility regulations -- in 22 years, done; voter ID, which is gonna allow Governor Romney to win the state of Pennsylvania, done." -Mike Turzai, GOP House Leader, PA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EuOT1bRYdK8&feature=player_embedded
Watch the entire speech from Turzai and he says NOTHING about voter fraud. That clip is a segment of a speech where he was talking about the legislative agenda of republicans in Pennsylvania. Not only did he say nothing about voter fraud, but he essentially said nothing about anything that would benefit the people of PA. It was all about things that were specific to the far right wing agenda of his party. Your comment doesn't indicate that you are trying to be fair, but that you are trying to defend the indefensible. What he said is clear in any context.
Nope. You are the opposite of correct. That's the stuff that was stricken from the existing Election Code by the new act. That's what the brackets in the act mean. The bracketed stuff is what's being stricken from the existing law and the bold-faced stuff is what's being added.
God bless America... she needs it!!
Cases like this and all the others that have republican politicians fighting to stop people from voting are just more reasons as to why we need to move past this antiquated system where every state makes up its own rules and procedures. We need one, single system for voting, one single set of laws that applies to all American citizens.
We should be one nation with one set of rules that applies to everyone, not 50 different, little nations that all have their own little rulers who create their own set of laws. It's needlessly complicated and a relic from an antiquated system of government we sorely need to update.
That argument could actually and has been applied to the Constitution... You might want to check out the Federalist papers sometime. It's a droll read but it's insightful as to the thinking of the framers. Our electoral system has been updated upon occasion but it's been done in incremental steps. The sweeping change you propose would never have the support enough to pass. And considering that whole parts of the country are under a different set of rules thanks to the voting rights act.
No , then the jim crow states would all be under sane election laws
Well consering we're at least 40 years plus out of that sad ass era..... then again my state seems to be a favorite target for the last few years.
How did this airhead get her job? Why does she still have it after admitting incompetence? "I don't know what the law says" should be an automatic disqualification for, you know, enforcing said law. You'd think she'd at least study up the night before testifying in court. Then again, her boss the governor already set the ignorance precedent. So glad not to live in PA, I have to say.
Maybe the same way as Nancy Pelosi, who when asked what was in the Obamacare bill state... "we should pass it and find out what's in it'...
That is not her entire quote. The actual line is, "Congress "[has] to pass the bill so you can find out what's in it, away from the fog of controversy." Meaning that once it's passed and implemented people will understand what is in it without the "death panels" crap that the Repubs were throwing around.
She is the wife of Governor Corbett's chief of staff Steve Aichele and was appointed by Governor Corbett. Ahem.
There is no voter fraud as is repeatedly proclaimed by the radical fringe TEA party. Moderate Republicans, who realize compromise is not a dirty word, have a test to pass this election cycle. If the base Republicans come out and elect moderates and take back their party, maybe the national economy will perk up.
Every valid citizen of America should vote. American's have lost numerous voting rights won during the 50's and 60's as TEA-Republican's have made a concerted effort to purge, limit, block and dissuade voters. Sadly the inclusion of Ron and Rand Paul's Libertarian sect and the use of (R) behind their names in elections have allowed many (T)'s to gain prominence in local and state prominence.
The Toxic Eradication Activist(TEA) party have taken hold of local and state communities, and that is where results are effected. Treacherous Adversarial Egotist(TEA) members ARE NOT being called out by their own party as the rabble they are.
Since Obama gained the right to run against the McPalin team there has a been a nationwide explosion of voter restrictions passed at thelocal and state level to abridge voters their rights to voice their views. It will be up to the middle class of voters to make the change they want because the fringe TEA party sect will definitely vote this cycle. There will be a distinct differentiation of thought process between moderate conservatives andextreme radicals and the voters will have to elect who they want governing them.
I think it needs pointing out that if "99% of PA voters have valid ID", then that means 88-THOUSAND voters (1%) do not.
Anyone else see a problem with that?
My question is, and has been.. how does someone exist in this country in this day and age without a valid ID. Ok, I can see not everyone has a bank account. Not everyone has a job lately. Not everyone has a car or drives. But at some point somewhere you deal with something or someone that requres a valid state issued ID. At least that's been my experience. I have to admit it's nice seeing the expression when asked for an ID and I give them a choice of the 3 that I have.
The more immediate problem here is not everyone realizes they will need an ID to vote in November. Many people pay little or no attention to the news and have no idea the law has been passed. They won't find out until they get to the polls and are turned away. If PA wants to have a voter ID law, phase it in over several years. Give people a chance to get the ID they need, and provide them with an option to get it for free if they can't afford it. Don't pass such a law in March and demand it by fully implemented by November. That's ridiculous. Actually, outrageous is probably a better word for it. There is nowhere near enough time for people to get into compliance.
Also, it never fails to amaze me when people insist their own experience is the experience of every other person around them. Newsflash: it's not.
Lot's of people don't have state-issued photo ID. My daughter is a college student who doesn't drive. She has college ID and a US Passport (neither of which would allow her to vote under MN's Republican-proposed votong restrictions BTW). My grandparents moved here from Florida and no longer drive - they have US Passports, expired DLs, Social Security cards, etc. and so on. What, exactly, do they need a current MN id for? Buying cigarettes?
NEHockeyMama
You kinda prove my point here. The passport while not "state" issued is almost univerally accepted as a valid ID. I know it is by most banking institutions and if I remember correctly it is even listed on the I9 employment identification form which is pretty standard.
US Passports prove citizenship. They don't prove your physical address. I ran into this problem in CO when applying for a state issued ID. I was told that my passport proved who I am, but didn't prove where I lived. I had to provide a utility bill to get the state ID. It's not always easy to get a state issued ID either and they do expire. In CO if that state has a tax lien on an individual and that individual's state issued ID expired and they went in to renew it the state will not issue an ID until the tax lien is satisfied and if you can't get that tax lien paid then you can't get a state ID. Thank goodness though that a passport is sufficient ID in CO to show at the voting polls. the whole point is some people cannot get a state issued ID for various reasons, but providing other forms of ID shouldn't be a hurdle when voting in a national/local election. PA is totally effed up with this law.
In this case PA does accept a valid US Passport as ID.
True, but that wasn't your question.
Also true, that passports and student ID verify identity, not current address. People overall are probably more likely to have a state ID than a passport, but that was also not your question.
My question is this: How can the state require people to pay money in order to exercise their right to vote? You don't have the RIGHT to rent a movie, or cash a check, or fly in an airplane. YOU HAVE THE RIGHT TO VOTE. Even when they make the ID itself free, the underlying documents required cost money and take time. Here in MN, my daughter's passport and student ID are insufficient to obtain a state ID.(Which is why she doesn't have one, which I suspect is also kinda the point of the republican attempt to require one.)
How can you justify what will almost certainly be the disenfrisement of eligible voters under the guise of addressing a problem that does. not. exist.?
And many student IDs are not considered valid forms of ID because they don't have expiration dates. I'm hoping the universities wise up to this real quick, but there's little hope there for this coming November.
Please excuse my detour there. My original question was in fact how does someone function without a state issued ID. To me it's a non issue as I've had one my entire adult life. And honestly there are so many reasons having one makes life a lot easier. I've dealt with bureacracies in many different forms and I've found that anything that can make it smoother is a good thing.
Well I can't and won't speak for most states but in SC the ID's were offered for free to those who couldn't afford em. For those who couldn't make it to the DMV on there own transportation was offered. If memory serves something like 35 people took advantage of this, state wide. The state has bent over backwards to provide this service to any who need it.
As to your daughters case I'll admit I'm perplexed. I don't know what the requirements for an ID in MN are but they seem rather stringent. I guess I'm just perplexed. I've had an ID, DL, Military ID, Passport, and or carry permit for most of my life certainly since I started working.
I know one issue that brought my state to this point was the number of illegals and a fear that they'd sway the vote. There's some issues with illegals here having out of state licenses and this was a way to insure legal residency of our state. The interesting thing is my states voter ID law was patterned after that of IN which was vetted and found constitutional by the SCOTUS.
Again I can't speak for other states but I have talked to leaders and law makers in my state and I truly don't believe this was done to willfully disenfranchise anyone. It was however jumped on by the NAACP as a racist 'Jim Crow' throwback. That wasn't the purpose of the voter ID law here but it didn't matter the stain of racism once applied is so hard to cleanse. There has been a history of voting irregularity in the last couple of elections and anything that could clear up confusion should be a good thing.
"There has been a history of voting irregularity in the last couple of elections..."
Can you cite a source for this, please? One that shows actual voter irregularities and not just voter registration irregularities, which are not the same thing? Because I am a quite well-informed PA resident and I have never heard of any such history actually being documented.
And by the way, if you are referring to the voter registration irregularities, which I do not dispute, the voter ID law does nothing to prevent those from happening.
ah, so fun to live in Pennsyltucky. all I can say is I didn't vote for the idiots currently in charge. Oh, Gov. Corbett, since you can't show any widespread voter fraud in PA, how about using all of the voter fraud cases that the GOP has been responsible for in other states, or is that just too embarassing?
And David James, there is no reason to have a ID as required by the state, with photo, if you don't drive, don't want to drink alcohol, don't smoke, etc. When I was asked to show my ID in Pennsylvania, the nice man at the voting place glanced at it and would have had no idea if it was valid or not. So much for "preventing voter fraud". go here to see what's required: http://palwv.org/
To vote from now on, you must have an unexpired Photo ID with an expiration date to vote. You are entitled to a free non-driver photo ID but will need the proper documentation to get it.
Visit votesPA.com to learn more about what is an acceptable ID, how to get a free photo ID at your Dept. of Motor Vehicles (DMV) Drivers License Center. An original birth certificate with a raised seal will be required. Before visiting the DMV location, make sure you have the right documents. Call 1-877-VotesPA if you need assistance.
If you need a birth certificate, marriage license or divorce decree go to the Center for Disease Control website or download the file for all states.
In Florida they are shortening the early vote period. That sucks. Somehow I would think a big tourist state like it would like a long time to get the vote in. People forget, but maybe they are of Limbaugh's feeling that some people should never know when the election is.
I live in Florida, by the way.
Carole Aichele is married to Stephen Aichele, Governor Corbett's former General Counsel, now Chief of Staff. Seems the former General Counsel, aka her husband, should be able to help her figure out what the law says. If not, the Governor, the former Attorney General, should certainly be able to.
They can't remember things like this when they do not wish to answer a question. The Govenor and The Secretary of the Commonwealth both have the Mitt Romney syndrome. It's a Republican illness. But as long as it's good for them and does what they want it to it's ok.
....republicanism at pure offensive, in the name of the most highly and purely developed Christian consciences.... "get rid of everybody not like us republicans = social, political schizophrenic-paranoids-segregationists-generous-well intentioned nice people 2" ... and then on a separate subject...what in the world do prominent individuals, members of and who pubicly identify themselves as followers of the Church Founded by Jesus Christ (which one it is argued extensively) ... but for this comment I refer to the Catholic Church,... why do these individuals pronounce adherence or detraction to political candidates when their religious concienses and worldly endevours cannot ever be matched to the endorsed! Or is it that they share the Graces given to both by God and also in the sins committed! Will they be judged together by The Lord at death and at the Final Judgement??
Before the dust settles after the 2012 Presidential Election, I hope there will be mass arrests of Republicans who today are participating in a conspiracy to deny Americans the right to vote.
At what point do we face that fact that an attempted coup is underway in this nation? This is positively Orwellian.
Is this the Republican version of "We have to pass the bill to see what is in it?"
Well considering this is a couple of pages at best and can be read in under a minute.. no not really.
Then why don't any of the supporters, especially the people who signed it, know what's in it?
Well more than likely they do. Because one woman brainfarted doesn't mean everyone totally spaced on it. Considering she could have had a copy in front of her.
Not good enough.
Is there no better proof of government (this time a state) out of control. How many people who voted for the law - read the law. We all know that most politicians do not know what is in the laws they pass - they depend on others to tell them what is in it and hope that person interpreted it correctly. If the governor signs a bill I would hope he knew what he was signing, and the the person who watches over the elections doesn't even know what the bill says - I really feel sorry for PA.
Sad state of affairs - people voted these politicians in and they do not do their job. So who are they really representing?? sounds like no one. It just sounds like they vote for something they are might be for or against.
I don't have a problem with requiring a picture ID to vote, however, each state should be required to provide the picture ID free of charge to any registered voter who needs one. Obviously that needs to be done prior to the election. That would be fair.
I think so too.. But tell that to the DOJ they don't seem to agree.
I feel so sorry for you folks, 2 year elections every 4 years , Gawd just think of what all that money could/would do if invested in the country in jobs education employment anything but politics.
I watch and read stuff and seems each state is its own little fiefdom and they try their best to control who votes and for what.
Being Canadian we have elections too and they last 45 days thank the lord! and we also have something Called Elections Canada, which is canada wide govt organization. and is supposed to be non political.
It runs all Federal elections, it hires staff to go out in community where they enumerate the voters and verify they are eligible to vote, once someones on the voting list , when an election is called you will recieve a voters card if on the voters list with your name address and polling station on it and when you go vote you take that card with you.
When an election is called Elections Canada, hires staff to operate and run the election, it hires poll station watchers and staffers, gets all ballots printed and distributed across Canada, they still believe the best way to make sure elections are honest is use the good old fashioned cross off the name on list with an X those new fancy electronic machines are too dangerous they are like slot machines in Vegas and owned by same folks so how trust worthy are they?
In end Elections Canada also counts the ballots and validates and verifies all elections and victories and losses the state/provonces have nothing to do with the Federal elections they only deal with their own elections.
Maybe its time the USA got into the 21st century and also gets a Elections USA which runs Federal elections in the country without the states fiddling with voters lists and electronic voting machines, just saying Americans wake up and smell the coffee , no fraudulent voters have been caught ot prosecuted in any state yet they claim thousads fradulentally voted, so they have to fix that problem, what problem? wheres the evidence wheres the proof, like GOP michigan Ohio Penn, Florida all have voters laws chganged and making it harder for older or minority voters to vote, My moms 88 and has no pictured ID she uses her voters card and phone bill to prove she is whom she says she is been good for years why change something if it aint broke??
With our wingnuts, it's getting harder and harder to be proud of the United States. What a joke they are. I'm sure Canadians are laughing their a$$es off at the unnecessary appendage attached to its South.