There was a shooting this morning at a Sikh temple in Oak Creek, Wisconsin, just outside of Milwaukee. The police have confirmed that seven people have been killed, and one of the seven was a gunman. (Note: I initially posted the video of the preliminary press statement from local law enforcement. I've since swapped that clip out for this one, showing the most up-to-date briefing.)
There have been competing reports about the details and the current state of the shooting, but it appears that at least one armed man began the incident shortly after 10 a.m. local time. After calls from within the temple to police, an officer arrived at the scene, and he was confronted by a gunman. They exchanged fire, the gunman was killed, and the officer was hit and is in surgery.
There have been unconfirmed reports about multiple gunmen and a possible hostage standoff, but police have not offered additional clarification.
An official from the temple told the Milwaukee Journal-Sentinel that people inside the temple described the shooter as a white male in his 30s, but nothing is else known about the assailant.
A spokesperson for a nearby hospital confirmed that there are also three adult males being treated in the trauma unit after also being shot.
The FBI is on the scene with state and local law enforcement. President Obama was notified of the shooting by his homeland security advisor earlier this afternoon.
Just to reemphasize, we don't yet know if the crisis is over.
Update: The next police briefing is expected at 4 p.m. local time. Based on reports from local news outlets, it does not appear as if this is an ongoing crisis.
Second Update: International, national, state, and local officials have issued statements, as have leaders from many religious groups. President Obama said in a written statement: "Michelle and I were deeply saddened to learn of the shooting that tragically took so many lives in Wisconsin. At this difficult time, the people of Oak Creek must know that the American people have them in our thoughts and prayers, and our hearts go out to the families and friends of those who were killed and wounded. My Administration will provide whatever support is necessary to the officials who are responding to this tragic shooting and moving forward with an investigation. As we mourn this loss which took place at a house of worship, we are reminded how much our country has been enriched by Sikhs, who are a part of our broader American family."
Third Update: A law enforcement official told NBC News' Pete Williams that today's shooter was dressed in tactical gear, armed with a single handgun. This is unconfirmed, and other outlets have referenced different assessments of the firearms.
Fourth Update: At a press briefing, Oak Creek Police Chief John Edwards said today's shooting is being treated as "a domestic-type terrorist incident," involving one gunman, not multiple. Edwards would give no additional information on the shooter or the specific details of the victims, whose families are still being notified. He did, however, explain that one officer was shot, and a second officer shot and killed the gunman. The temple has been cleared and the tactical teams at the scene are now standing down.
There will be another press briefing, presumably with far more information, at 10 a.m. local time
Leave a Comment:
The crisis won't be over until we go around and get guns out of people's hands. I used to be an advocate for moderate gun laws, but not any more. The Second Amendment needs to go. People's lives are more important than some dickhead's ability to buy whatever firearms that they want.
You want a rifle for hunting? Okay. A shotgun for the same reason? Sure, highly regulated. No more assault rifles. No more pistols. No more SMGs. We don't need them, and we don't need any more gun violence.
Yeah that'll stop the gun violence... right after hell freezes over
Ahh yes, I forgot that "criminals" can just manifest guns out of sheer will. I must be a lieberal dumbocrat to think that taking the guns out of Amercia will stop gun violence!
Also, duuurrrrrrr hurrrrrrr wuwururrrurr.
Your a fool if you think you can get rid of all the guns.
I for one am sick and tired of this argument.
Nothing will be decided for now about what - if anything - can be done to stop this sort of thing from happening.
We need to have a serious discussion, look at all facets of this issue and then see if there are sensible steps that can be taken.
So - go ahead and repeat your arguments YET AGAIN - and call each other names - if you feel you must - but it wont change anyone's mind or make a D**N bit of difference.
So what's the solution? A universal ban on guns won't work. And the two extremes are going to spoil any discussion with hyperbole.
I think this is one of the most accurate comments ever composed here. I concur. Kudos.
A universal ban on guns won't work? Why not? You can keep saying that, but it makes no sense. We take away all of the guns that people own and don't allow any more guns to be sold.
It won't stop gun violence entirely, but it sure will make it a lot harder to accomplish. Of course, conservatives are too goddamn dumb to understand common sense, so it will never happen.
Tell that to the people in Finland then... All you're really going to acomplish is to take guns out of the hands of law abiding citizens. And lets be honest enough of them are going to be smart enough to cache guns back. You're not going to elemenate guns in this country or from our society as a whole.
Perhaps not legally but they will be. You readily admit it won't start gun violence entirely yet still think it's the solution.... I'm sorry but I actually don't see the common sense in your argument cause there isn't any there to find.
I used to be among those calling for sensible gun regulation involving assault rifles and high capacity magazines. Not that I've really changed my mind about the need for those, but I don't think it will solve the problem. I'm not sure any kind of legislation will, because it's a basic lack of caring in our society. And it's what we've allowed ourselves to become.
Where does all the hate and fear come from? I can remember a time the hate filled rants and craziness would have gotten someone booed off the stage. Nowadays we hear it from our poiticians, our religious leaders, and our media, especially radio talk shows, and it creates barely a ripple. In many cases it brings applause.
Each of us needs to examine our beliefs and our value systems. Until we can set aside the hate, the outrage and the fears, it will not change. Legislation cannot do it. It has to come from the American public.
Get rid of the ammo. Most hoods aren't gonna try making their own gunpowder let alond shell casings and shells.
Make it life without parole for anyone that uses a weapon in the commission of a crime.
Make it a crime with at least twenty years prison for anyone to purchas a gun for someone else.
If a gun is used in a crime and it is registered to another person other than the perp make the owner liable maybe then people will be more careful in storing guns.
But for christs sake quit making assault weapons available to civilians! Quit letting ammo and magazines to be sold on the internet!
Cons want voter ID so I want ammo ID-no proper ID no ammo!
And maske any purchase of over fifty rounds require a paper trail.
This incident is one example of over 8,000 murders that occur in the US every year. What we need to do is put serial numbers on the bullets so we can solve those murders.
The whole "outlaw guns thing" is totally irrelevant to the conversation.
You can make a very effective hand grenade with fertilizer, kerosene, and a pipe.
There is no possible way to outlaw everything that could be used to harm other people.
The solution is to identify the mentally ill individuals that feel a need to harm others.
Do I understand you correctly?
Corollary: The solution is not to ban handheld surface to air missiles. If we ban them, the crazies will just find another way to blow up aircraft.
If you make ownership of Stinger missiles a crime, then only criminals will own them?
.
Is this the level that human cognition on this issue has sunk to?
look here crackhead-sure a nut can fashion a bomb. Here is the thing about that--he has to plan things out and gather the materials, a nut with a gun can just trip off the line and start shooting. Most people who trip are going to either calm down or get caught if they have to take time to build a bomb and then plan on how and where to set it off. Let's not forget that preplanning means premeditated.
Congratulations Republican Party your speeches filled with hate for those who are different than you is finally paying off. The Republicans party's intolerance of those who are different than you is turning into violence. I am so angry at the senseless killing of people because our Political Leaders spew hatred in speeches and our Religious Leaders stay silent. Listen carefully, you can not force your Religion on the rest of us, you can not force your morals on the rest of us. The Constitution gives us the Freedom to choose what if any Religion we follow, to be pro life or pro choice , to take birth control or not and to be homosexual if that is how God made you.
Yes I am guilty of spewing hate for the extremist Republicans for their inability to compromise, accept people who are different and believe differently than them. So God forgive me for the hate I have in my heart right now and for being a hypocrite by spewing hatred of the extremist Republicans.
@Lorr Re: #2
I agree with most of what you said except for this statement:
.."our Political Leaders spew hatred in speeches and our Religious Leaders stay silent."
It is clear to me that some "Religious" Leaders are the ones that preach hate and intolerance. They "inspire" their followers. The Political "Leaders" then say what is required to gain or keep office.
There is no "religion" in the hatred (at least not Christianity) and there is no "leading" by the politicians.
Hatred and intolerance are, by their nature, LOUD.
Love and forgiveness are, by their nature, QUIET.
We need to speak out against hatred and intolerance as loud as we can. We need to elect and support political representatives who agree with us.
All of this on the heels of yet another "English only" bill just last week. They just won't quit.
No need for any gun legislation though; it's not like it's at all a common thing to have lunatics with guns slaughtering innocent people in Amercia. Gawd Bless Amercia BTW! More second ammendment solutions in action! (..... .... ...)
How about this Trollop , the gun manufacturers have flooded america with guns for the last 200 years , so as a compromise, we will shut them down for the next 200 years , and call it even ?
There's suddenly a lot to consider with gun legislation and the details of those considerations can't be judiciously discussed in this forum. Even so, that this happens and no one surprised that it happened, then yes, it is all too common. The ONLY people surprised are the people who find themselves being shot [at] because most of us go through life thinking it (gun violence and anything else) is going to happen to someone else.
Gun violence is terrorism.
We could ban guns, just like we banned drunk driving and drug use. Or maybe harsher penalties like hate crimes. Government took hard stances against these items and now they are things of the past.
Seriously? More gun control? There are how many of tens of millions of guns out there in the world, what practical controls can you put out there that will prevent these things?
Chris- so we just shouldn't try? Maybe never have the conversation, just because so many people already have guns? No, you can't get rid of guns overnight. But why can't we start to have some real controls over registration, multiple ownership, etc? I really don't go along with the idea that we can't do anything. The NRA loves that position, because it guarantees that we will never do something about the proliferation of weapons in this country.
rwsgate
To be fair discussing new gun laws is fine. It's the extremes of both parties that are going to foul the water. The second the left proposes a total ban it's a moot point. I really don't believe the solution is more laws to control, restrict, ban guns. It's a muliti symptom problem and there isn't a simple solution to be sure. Taking guns out of the hand of law abiding citizens or piling restrictive laws on them isn't the answer. Punishment should definately be harsher for one. But again there is no simple one size fits all fix.
On one hand, david, you say it's the "extremes of both parties" and that the "left proposes a total ban (which is not true)" and go on to say "it's a multi soultion problem" but, "taking guns out of the hands . . citizens . . isn't the answer".
So, david, it's multisolutional, but restricting handgun ownership isn't one of the solutions. Right? if so, it's not 'multi' david. Get it? If there's only one it's not multi. If your portion of the 'solution' is to not restrict ownership without discussion, that's a closed end argument and is not 'multi'. See?
And, "extremes of both parties"? Could you provide a reference where the left is being 'extreme' in asking for a civil discourse about gun ownership, if any?
Ok for arguments sake what would your restrictions be?
As to the extremes - While some on the left genuinely want a diaglogue all to often the call from the left is to ban all guns. We have gun laws currently that require an NICS check and to fill out the proper ATF paperwork, so what else would you like to see put into place?
This is the effects we're now seeing of people like Michele Bachmann, T-Party, Glen Beck and Rush Limbaugh... It's time for the country leaders took investigate their colleagues.... Words have meaning, words can affect feelings...
Way to jump to a conclusion.
The pen is way mightier than the machine gun. Sound bites carry more weight than any signed legislation these days...so no, she's not jumping to conclusions. Spewing hateful words into the trembling ears of tired, angry souls works. Rabble-rousing tends to rouse very bitter rabbles indeed.
And Thomas Paine, Jonathan Swift, Dickens...they had no effect on people whatsoever; their methods didn't help point out social problems and help drain cultural swamps? Really? Common Sense was just some pretty words. Gulliver's Travels was a sweet little adventure story, sure it was. A Modest Proposal had no affect on anyone beyond mild boredom. And Oliver Twist, David Copperfield, Bleak House, blah blah, just sentimental garbage that was surely not pointing out left, right, and sideways some of the crusty crud of the day.
Beck and company are not preaching peace, love and understanding, now are they? And they are effective speakers, people are listening very hard to their words. It would only be logical that their words have an effect, and ripple outward. And get things done. Which is the entire point of their careers, isn't it? To change what they view America has become-- a morally bankrupt, liberal dystopian nightmare.
Words matter. Of course they matter.
"Words matter. Of course they matter."
They do indeed, which is why those on the right repeat their favorite lies so often and so aggressively.
That's it. Slam back with lies and slander. Don't engage and discuss. When did dissent and discussion become unpatriotic?
Alright, David,
I am SICK of you!! Six people died and yet NOT ONE word of compassion from you - only a discussion of what YOU want! It is ALL ABOUT YOU isn't it? Not the six people who died for no reason!!
Is that ALL YOU ARE as a human? Have YOU no decency???
David James, what, exactly are the lies & slander you refer to?
malheurriverwoman wrote a well thought out statement. If you have an argument to put forward address it straight forward and without generalities.
Explain what you disagree with and put a lid on the anger. You're not going to intimidate anyone here with your machismo and chest beating. We've moved beyond that stage. Civilized people have evolved beyond your dung flinging methods of 'communication'.
The topic is that once again an idiot with a weapon has attacked women & children in a church. If you are a church person that should offend you. If you are a women & children loving person that should offend you. If you have any feelings whatsoever for your fellow human beings it should offend you.
But, you appear to be on the defensive in this tread and are trying (without coming right out and saying so) condone the actions of the shooter(s). Why is that?
Patriotism has nothing to do with is tragedy. Why do you bring patriotism into this discussion?
I certainly feel compassion and remorse for this sensless tragedy. I'll save my feelings and wishes for my prayers. This is certainly not all about me. I expressed my opinion ( which is my right ) and if you don't like that then I don't care. I'm sick and tired of the liberals starting their rants before the blood of the victims even dries.
David, See. It's still about you and how you are bleeding and no one cares about your bleeding and all the ugly liberals are ganging up on you and wont leave YOU alone. Booo fucccing hoo david.
Get over yourself.
gorona,
I disagree with the pathetic snarky arguments libs dredge up and drag out when a tragedy like this happens. ie You're second paragraph. I am offended by this and by no means condone the action of this coward. No matter what his color creed or religion this is undefensible. I do not however think the answer is to scream for a universal gun ban.
I bring it up because it seems anytime anyone who is not a lib/dem etc makes a point the all knowing snarks try to shout that person down and question them....
Gordona
did you even bother to read or are you just jumping to assumptions? Or are your meds wearing off?
David,
I have owned weapons, I have hunted. I even had a job where I carried a gun (state trooper). I was even a member of NRA once. I have always believed in the past that individuals had the right to own and carry guns.
But lately, listening to people like you, I am changing my mind. Gun ownership is too important to leave to selfish people like you and the NRA. I have come to the realization that we as a nation NEED gun control - if only to keep guns out of the hands of people like you who only think about what what YOU want and not about what WE as a country need!!
So keep making your nuisance posts - you have NO IDEA how many people YOU are convincing that gun control is a necessity!!
Why am I selfish? Because I won't let my right to defend myself and my family be taken away? As far as thinking about what we as a country needs, I to had a job where I carried a gun ( US Navy ) I'm a law abiding, licensed citizen so I don't know what your problem is with me. I deplore the criminal cowardly act but I also decry the heinous, callous left for pushing their cause over the bodies of the dead.
David. I can assure you there is nothing wrong with my reading comprehension.
And, yes, I am off my meds. All the more reason you don't want to twist my tail right now, comrade.
And the phrase is 'jumping to conclusions' just so you know.
Gordona,
Yeah ok.... try getting back on your meds I'm sure you'll be a much happier person.
Once...,
Isn't it a bizarre irony that people who flaunt their willingness to overthrow the US Government whine about "defense" and continually play the victim card?
Sorry you're barking up the wrong tree...
Denial is not just a river in Egypt.
I don't have to try to hard to deny this one. I've sweated, and bled in defense of this country so you can take your opinion, turn it side ways, shine that puppy up, and well you'll figure it out once you pull your head out .....
I encountered plenty of arrogant, conceited macho-posturing Scheißkopf bullies while I was in the military. They always had a grossly inflated idea of their own value. They were usually very heavy drinkers, too.
Figures you're going to throw out a bunch of accusations and allegations... nice try..
Says the blustering troll.
Okay, then what do you wish to discuss or put forth? Because all you're doing is attacking. Attacking people for being off meds or having their heads impossibly shoved into their own anatomy or whatever else you've dredged up to hide the fact that you've yet to introduce your topic. What, besides how stupid and illogical and mean liberals are, do you wish to hash out?
I'm responding to the damn near letter perfect talking point calls for more gun laws that just happen to pop up before the officers have even cleared the scene of this tragedy. So why am I not entitled to my opinion?
You're entitled to an opinion, but you are not entitled to be a troll. You are practically the poster child for the impossibility of having a reasonable discussion with those on the right.
Entropy,
You have that absolutely right!! I am always amazed at those people who claim they "need guns" to "protect their families". I always ask - from WHAT? What have YOU been doing that makes YOU need protection?
Most people who don't have guns don't have that much problem "protecting" themselves! Even in big cities where crime is supposed to be "rampant", seems to me a good homeowner's policy is more protection than a gun would ever be!!
I am always amazed that the wingnuts who propose overthrowing the government ALWAYS think what THEY have is so "important" that "everybody" wants to take it away from them. Like WHAT? That 20 year old P/u truck? That old mobile shack you call home? Maybe its that "big screen TV"? Your collection of "Soldiers of Fortune" magazines?
Once...,
They want to "defend" themselves the way Germany "defended" itself against Poland in 1939, the way the Klan "defended" itself from black people, and so on.
You both can attack, and try to marginalize me all you want, and I know you will. But the fact remains there are two sides to this discussion and as much you would like to think otherwise you are an will continue to be in the minority of people in this country.
Once- if and that's a big if you actually knew anything about me you'd know how false and pathetic your little critique of me is but it's what I've come to expect from the "enlightened" left.
David, first you say you were in the Navy, like I was supposed to back down from you because you're all Jesse Ventura (whom I respect) and stuff, right?
Then you say " I've sweated, and bled in defense of this country so you can take your opinion, turn it side ways, shine that puppy up. . ."
As a former LRRP and adviser to the 5th ARVN Rangers I'd like to ask you just HOW have you 'sweated and bled'. I spent 31 months in country and during that time I never came across anyone as weak and shiftless as you appear to be, david.
Tell me, david, where did you sweat, where did you bled? Inquiring minds want to know, bubba. When and where did you 'bleed'?
Somebody call the waaahhhmbulance for the troll (i.e., DJ, not gordona)!
Sorry, folks, got things to do...I'll have to leave you to babysit the troll.
gordona - for one I don't have to prove a damn thing to you for one thing, I served with Navy EOD for 4 years and no I wasn't "incountry" for 31 months I served in both Africa and the Middle East as well as various deployments and training. Or isn't that good enough? Again... nice personal attack. By all means anything to deflect and dodge right?
Entropy,
Yep, bizarre how they think uncalled for aggression against others means "defense"!
Once,
Once again you try to put words in someones mouth. I'm very well aware of the meaning of defense.. But then again this is coming from the person who not that long ago warned me not to "twist my tail" Again go take your meds and come back to reality.
David,
Stress getting to you bud? You can't keep us apart anymore? And BTW , my response wasn't to YOU but to Entropy.
May I remind you that you didn't have to come here spouting your crap? You chose to engage this fight. If you can't handle it, don't blame us!!
EOD my arse!! Next thing you'll be telling us is that you were SEAL Team 6. You've been reading too many Clancy novels, bud!
It is hard keeping you apart since you basically parrot the same BS.....
Again, all you're doing is throwing out a bunch of BS personal attacks to detract, deflect and obfuscate.
And yes I was with EOD, no I wasn't with SEAL Team 6, NSWDevGru, or whatever their name is now.
To sum up though. Don't like guns cool, don't own one. Don't take away my right to own one.
Well then, david. You were a bit less than honest when you stated that you had "bled" for your country, weren't you?
You were the one to begin the personal attacks on us liberals and how we had attacked you.
No one had attacked you until you made that comment about having bled for your country. See, david, a real veteran wouldn't make that kind of claim in order to make a point. When you put that forth I knew you were lying and felt compelled to call you on it.
For some reason republicans think they're the only ones to have ever been in the military or have served their country.
Now, as far as your comment about "so you can take your opinion, turn it side ways, shine that puppy up . . . " What do you have to say?
This would be a good point for you to say how sorry you are for being such a twit and how wrong you were, etc. This would be a good place for you to apologize to the men and women who actually did go into harm's way and how remorseful you are to try and steal the valor of such who have been in combat and seen their friends maimed and killed.
It's not a left or right issue, david. It's about being truthful.
If it's about being truthful then you've failed. And as far as claiming I'm not a vet I've got the scars and the time in to prove that so what ever you wanna think so be it. Like I said I might not have served in country for 31 months or whatever.
Past that I've put forward my arguments for my point but you're to hide bound or maybe just to stupid to be able to look at anything objectively. I don't mind a discussion on gun control. what I do mind is the enevitable call for a ban of all guns. Lets face it whether you or anyone else on the left like it or not its a part of our history, heritage, and culture. We live in a time that glorifies violence and yet we're shocked when a deranged gunman shoots someone. No this shooting shouldn't have happened. But even with draconian gun laws in place I don't believe you could have stopped it.
So you think I'm stupid, david? Is that what you're saying?
What about ". . so you can take your opinion, turn it side ways, shine that puppy up. . ." Would you care to elaborate on that?
And tell me about your scars, david. Really, if you've been hurt in some manner I'd like to know about it, you know, as a friend.
david, our history also involved blood letting to try and heal the sick along with many other bad ideas that seemed like good ideas at the time.
The problem with your history is that we, as a culture and a nation, have moved beyond the idea of finding your perfect mate and dragging her by the hair back to your cave.
Tell me about your scars, david.
We're certainly past those days but violence unfortunately is still a fact of life. Unfortunately there are people out there that want to do others harm. Either to take what they have, or they have a grudge, or just cause it brightens up their day to hurt others. So what do you do?
Why you wanna know? I got em, what more you want?
Show me your scars, david. What do they look like and where are they?
I'm kinda morbid like that. Someone tells me they got scars, well, I just gotta see em, know what I mean. Especially real life combat scars obtained in the service of one's country, f -you liberals, we got us a fing hero here with scars and @!$%#!
Show me your scars, david. PLEASE!
David ... You're right about there being two (or even more) sides to this discussion. True, no gun ever got up by itself and walked over to kill or injure someone. Alternately, there would be little loss of life in situations like the one that occurred today had the assailant been wielding a knife or a single blunt object.
I am curious about how you, as a defender of our ready access to guns (something I find silly and unnecessary), can explain the following: what, other than the easy availability of guns, explains the incredible differential in gun violence per 100,000 citizens in this country as opposed to virtually any other civilized, industrial nation in the world? (Without blaming it all on Barack Obama, please.)
mpguy
Other than I don't believe you could have prevented this even with a universal ban on guns. The nutball would have found a way to do what he wanted and I believe he'd have found a gun if he wanted it bad enough. As bad as that is I don't see how you take em all away.
As far as ready access I can go out and buy a gun at a pawn shop, local gun store etc... it's going to take more effort and a lot more time than going and getting one on the street almost instantly..
Could you cite your reference for the gun violence in the US versus the rest of the industrial nations please. The latest data I can find shows that the US is no where near the top of that heap. As far as that goes look at Switzerland who have a far lower crime rate and rate of violent crime and most if not all males in that society are armed by law.
David ... Here are a couple of sources:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_firearm-related_death_rate
The map shows how we compare with over 60 other countries. While we're not at the top, the nations that ARE there aren't exactly comparable to us in terms of industrial and social development. Those that are considered our peers (countries in Western and Central Europe and much of the Orient) are far below us on that list. I hope we aren't aspiring to be in the same category as nations like South Africa, Mexico, Columbia, and El Salvador. If we are, we need to change our priorities. As you can see at the end, the data come from mainly from the United Nations and the Kaiser Foundation. Fairly reputable sources, I would say.
http://www.statehealthfacts.org/comparemaptable.jsp?ind=113&cat=2
What's amazing about this map, showing gun violence in the U. S. by state, is how much it looks like an electoral map. The states showing the greater incidence of gun deaths are, almost exclusively, the "red states," while the "blue" states show a lesser (though still thoroughly unacceptable) incidence of such violence.
Also, Al Sharpton did a segment on this topic just in the last few days. (You can find a link to it if you have more patience than I have.) His graphic showed the number of gun murders and suicides in the U. S., as compared with major industrialized nations. We're in five figures each year. Few of the other nations on that list were much above several hundred, and many were well below 100 per year.
Of course, I realize that people on the right either see nothing wrong with gun violence or pretend that we’re just like everybody else, and that no problem exists. To them, refusing to acknowledge the horrific differential in gun death rates is a way to take a slap at “libruls.” Head in the sand thinking, as far as I’m concerned. The problem doesn’t go away. As we saw again this weekend.
mpguy-
Thanks for posting those. That gibes with what I was able to find as well. Yeah we have less violent deaths, specifically homicides that our european cousins. I do note that Switzerland (who is armed to the teeth per capita) is much much lower. Some of that I can attribute to culture as well as gun regulations. There are still unfortunately incidents in Europe though. The most notable of late the spree killing in Finland. But you're right we're leading in an area its a damn shame to lead in not a thing to be proud of there. But it speaks to our crime problem as well. While still to high if you ask me the rate of violent crime murder, armed robbery etc have declined steadily over the last 10 years coincedentally while more and more states passed CCW and OC laws. There are more guns out there and there are more guns in the hands of law abiding citizens and it makes a difference.
The map doesn't actually break down the deaths by accidental,suicide, homicide while it wouldn't make a vast difference overall it might be telling. But I agree the number at any level are to high.
I have to say I am a conservative, though I can't say I'm a republican.. and I do see a lot wrong with gun violence. It does exist and it is most definately a problem in our nation. I don't agree it's simply cause of the existing gun laws. A lot of those deaths are attributted to violent crime. I don't have figures though i'd love to see how it breaks down, but I can guarantee the vast majority of those crimes weren't committed with a legal handgun.
We need to address more than gun control. We need to address crime as a whole, along with violent crime and the appalling number of illegal guns that are out there. I would suggest far far harsher sentences for offenders and no chance for repeat offenders. This isn't going to make some happy but you have to address the underlying issue as well.
I do think a healthy discussion concerning guns might do this country some good. There needs to be better education and less glorification of guns.
" . . .That gibes with what I was able to find as well. Yeah we have less violent deaths, specifically homicides that our european cousins. I do note that Switzerland (who is armed to the teeth per capita) is much much lower. Some of that I can attribute to culture as well as gun regulations. There are still unfortunately incidents in Europe though. The most notable of late the spree killing in Finland. . . ."
I think you mean, " . . . we have more violent deaths, specifically homicides ..." I doubt that Switzerland's low rate (.58 per 100K, vs. our 4.14) has much to do with the fact that they're "armed to the teeth." Their rates look too much like those of other European nations, most of whose citizens don't carry guns. I look at how we compare with Canada and Great Britain, nations we're the most like. Their rates of gun violence are infinitesimal compared with ours. Something else is at work here.
Putting MORE guns in the hands of people in this country, even requiring everybody to be armed, isn't likely to solve this problem. It's likely to make it even worse.
That assumes a lot about the law abiding citizens out there. I do there that there is evidence that states that adopted CCW laws saw a reduction in violent crime. It's not the ultimate solution but it's a step. Criminals have no respect for anything and have run amok in our country to the point where it's at unbelievable levels now. Tackling the problem is going to take a lot. But I honestly don't see how disarming at worst or hampering law abiding citizens can make things better.
We can do better background checks, and institute waiting periods but the states that have or have had those didn't show a reduction in violent crime either. We've gone a long way down this hole and we really need to work together to climb back out of it without the rhetoric and vitriol but I'm afraid that's not likely to happen.
Yes there are a lot of people on the right who fear that "they" are coming to take their guns away. While I don't think that's the universal idea on the left there are more than a few that want to do exactly that. Until we can get past our own differences and speak openly and honestly it's not likely to change.
@ EntropyRules RE: "Somebody call the waaahhhmbulance for the troll..."
Ummm… I know you’re speaking to someone else, so pardon me butting in, -but I find that word interesting. Not many people use it. In fact the only other person I have noticed using it was Tperky.
Tperky quote: “Someone needs a wahhmbulance, stat!”
So… what do you think are the odds of that? Pretty slim, right? It might be nothing, but I'm also wondering if it might just be the tip of the iceberg...
Ridiculously long MaddowBlog ref link to Tperky‘s comment:
http://maddowblog.msnbc.com/_news/2012/06/15/12242508-obama-unveils-immigration-policy-at-white-house?threadId=3443449&commentId=67125103&__utma=154396583.166218015.1343861687.1343892481.1344240378.7&__utmb=154396583.1.10.1344240378&__utmc=154396583&__utmx=-&__utmz=154396583.1343861687.1.1.utmcsr=(direct)|utmccn=(direct)|utmcmd=(none)&__utmv=154396583.|8=Earned%20By=newsvine%7Cnewsvine=1^12=Landing%20Content=Original=1^13=Landing%20Hostname=tperky.newsvine.com=1^30=Visit%20Type%20to%20Content=Earned%20to%20Original=1&__utmk=246065860#c67125103
To those who claim its not guns that are the problem, but that we aren't "doing enough to control crime", here's a map for you:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Prisoner_population_rate_UN_HDR_2007_2008.PNG
And yet another graph:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:US_incarceration_timeline-clean-fixed-timescale.svg
It is apparent from this and from the totality of the data in other areas, that something has gone terribly wrong in this country since the 1980's. I think it is time that we start thinking about what the USA means before we totally lose it!!!
@once Re: #7.49
SO SO TRUE!!! And not just on this issue - but everything!!
maphi,
We need to start collecting the data and present it, in totality to Benen or Rachel. I'm thinking in terms of Why Nations Fail! I wonder if it is already too late to turn things around!!!
I'm probably going to be very busy this week, but this weekend, I'll start the research!!!
You are a good researcher, are you interested also? Any others out there interested?
@once
I have been posting comments asking (begging) someone to display the Bikini Graph - jobs added - to include previous years - back to 2000.
The other night, Benen actually did! Yeah!!!
"Why Nations Fail" - yeah = really really scary.
I don't think a lot of new research is necessary.
We have the data - income disparity and the effect of $$ in politics.
Income disparity = "extractive" economic institution
The dependence on political candidates on fund raising and the effect of $$ going to the outside groups (thank you Supreme Court!!! grrrrrr!!!!) = Extractive political institutions.
Let me know what I can do.
FYI - I heard about "Why Nations Fail" on Up With Chris Hayes. He had the author on for a short segment - which was barely enough to explain anything.
Until we who want guns controlled and assault weapons banned gather together in a strong lobby group with plenty of funding, our voices will be ignored.
My heart goes out to the families of the six people who were killed and to all people out there who are Sikhs. I hope they understand that not all Americans are "rage-filled" killers and that many of us appreciate what the Sikh religion stands for and how the people who practice it enrich all of our lives.
I hope you're happy now, oncearepublican. You've made david cry. He's going to go off somewhere and have a good pityparty because us liberals ganged up on him and called him names or something.
Oh, and he's going to pray, too, See, that'll teach you to pick on david. Now he's going to pray! Because all the liberals started their rants and stuff before the blood was dry.
Damn liberals and their no guns for idiots campaign. Why won't they just leave people like david alone? Why?
Time-saving program-able computer keys for TV news directors?
F1 - A lone gunman has . . .
F2 - An unknown number of gunmen have . . .
F3 - There are, at this time, ....... confirmed dead and ........confirmed wounded.
F4 - Our hearts go out to the victims and their families.
F5 - They are in our thoughts and prayers.
F6 - The weapons involved were all bought legally.
F7 - The motive for this mass murder is not clear at this time.
F8 - Local, state and national political leaders will meet next month in . . . to discuss ways to address American gun violence.
F9 - The NRA, in a prepared statement, denies any responsibility, but added that their thoughts and prayers go out to the victims and their families
F10- Coming right right up after a word from . . . . , a new episode of the hit show . . .
Angry and/or crazy people kill people.
Angry and/or crazy people with guns kill people using the guns.
Angry and/or crazy people without guns can still find a way to kill people.
Maybe we can find some solutions that we can agree on - but I am not optimistic.
What I think would be a more productive and more beneficial for a LOT of reasons, is to spend a lot of time and energy on identifying and helping angry and/or crazy people before they hurt other people.
Last I looked, we don't know anything about the shooter today. I'm willing to bet he was angry and/or crazy.
Well now since there is nothing normal about killing others without reason you have a safe bet. However people without guns are less likely to succeed in killing even one person and the idea they could kill a half dozen before being stopped is unimaginable. Granted a nut with a knife is a threat but once you see the knife you can deal with it better than a gun as it is being fired. Bombs kill but how many bombs are made and used by nutcases?
gun ownership should require a doctor's notice, to determine whether an individual is mentally fit, and that exam should then take place annually.
the barriers to gun ownership should at the very least be as onerous as the barriers to birth control
I have a question. As a CWP holder I don't have to wait for a background check, since I had to go through all the vetting to get my permit. Would I still have the waiting period?
I have a question, david. Why didn't you answer my question?
Tell me about your scars, bubba.
Oh, and another question. In order to get a CWP do you need to know the difference between to & too, they're & there, and an & and? If so, david, how did you pass the exam?
@David
Since you asked .... because you sound like an angry and/or crazy person.
Well considering the company maphi that's probably a compliment. It was an honest question but I guess it's too much to ask for anything but a snarky come back.
Gordona,
Why should I answer your question when you wouldn't answer an honest question from me.
david, what's your question, bubba?
I'm asking about your qualifications for a CWP and I'm concerned about your scars.
What do you want to know, david?
Well apparently I qualified as far as my state is concerned so seems like I passed at least that much of a test... state and local law enforcement and the FBI all did checks... so what more would i need?
Literacy would be nice. You know, the ability to read and write. Basic communication skills, etc.
But, I'm most curious about all the scars you received while serving in the navy in Africa and 'other deployments' (sound deliciously secret). How were you injured and how severe were your injuries where you bled all over the place for your country and stuff. I'd love to hear the war stories you have, david. My dog, but I'll bet you're an interesting person if the dang liberals would only let up for a moment and let you be yourself. Know what I mean?
Please tell us more, won't you please?
gordona I shouldn't expect anything more from you should I. You want to try and marginalize me with your witty banter and little accusations.
Nothing secret about my deployments, two med cruises and mulitiple training and work up cruises in the Atlantic and Carribean as well as a stop in Liberia, and deployment to Kuwait. (This was during and right after the Gulf War). Overall I came out lucky to be honest. I've got all my limbs fingers toes etc unlike so many our our men and women who've served over the last 10+ years. I certainly don't mean to lessen any of the sacrifice that they've made.
You wanna have a discussion gordona fine, wanna throw snarky comments go down to Starbucks or where ever you go and chat up your bros.
Good on ya, david.
But, you didn't get to the good part. You know, where you got hit in the gut or leg or arm or something by that whatever it was that hit you and then you bled all over the fing place because your something had been hit by a piece of something. F don't you even remember that part of the story, dood?
Tell me about the f'ing Purple Heart Citation and what is written thereon, dood. I mean you were there, amiright? Maybe you were too f'ed up to remember, but the PH citation should be able to give you a clue as to you injuries and how you bled all over the f'ing place for you f'ing country, right?
Tell me about your scars, david!!
Starbucks? No, bubba. How about we meet up at the nearest US Marshall's office, MF'er?
David, this is not a personal attack on you. Don't take it personally unless you're a lying scumbag piece of crap like I think you really, really are.
You have engaged in what is called "stolen valor". Claiming to have been wounded (sweated and bled for my country . .) when in fact, as I have known for the past two hours, you have never been so much as knicked while shaving during you supposed time in service, pfffft.
I've whipped better than you off the bottoms of my shoes, david.
There was absolutely no reason in the world for you to make your claim. Except you were a troll visiting a 'liberal' website looking for a fight. We on the left, david, don't really care what you did or didn't do in your past life (lives). It's what you do here and now that is important. It's about looking after your fellow man/woman/child/etc and actually giving a s-it about each and everyone on the entire f-ing planet. Not just yourself.
That's where you are different than 'us'. We care about one another, bubba. You and people like you don't. It's that easy to explain. Oh, and the fact that people like you are liars!
You say I don't care about anyone. But I do. I care for my family friends and for the most part society at large. But as for those who would do harm then no I really don't care at all. Try to harm me or mine then yeah I'll step into harms way and do violence to them. Don't like that? Well I suppose that's your right as much as it's mine to feel that way.
Face it you're on the minority side of the Gun Control argument and you can't see it. There are more registered legal gun owners out there today than there were 10 years ago. In fact that's probably a reason for the rate of violent crime dropping steadily for at least the last 5 years. But that couldn't be... cause no good comes from having a gun...........
How is it that you know how I feel about gun control, david?
I've only engaged you in conversation to show you as a liar and blowhard who will say anything, make any claim to try and make a point. You're a troll, david.
Why are you here at maddowblog in the first place? You come here with claims of being a wounded veteran and blah, blah you know better than anyone here whats right or wrong with the country because you bled all over and sweated for your country. Now, it's known that you are a fake and a liar and yet want to hang around and argue some inane point that is irrelevant.
You're a liar, david. Please go away. Your comments have no meaning and you offer nothing to the discussion at hand. Why are you still here?
I'm a gun owner and I'll be the first to admit that guns do not solve problems. Guns cause problems, david. Without guns people like you would have to actually stand up and face an adversary or a problem without resorting to just pulling a trigger and f-ing the entire situation up forever! After you pull that trigger nothing is ever the same, nothing is ever the same. Not you - the other guy -your family -his family - nothing is ever the same after you pull that trigger. It's finality. It's a point that can not be undone (crossing the Rubicon). Whether you go to jail is a very small part of the argument. You might think that such an action may not weigh on your conscience because you were in the right at the time. You'll be sadly mistaken, david. You'll remember that simple action for the rest of your life. You'll be haunted by that one simple action past your grave. It'll be a stain on your soul that'll never wash out.
Take it from someone who has pulled a few triggers in his time. Each time stains your soul. Each and every time is a bloody stain on your soul. No matter how much you drink or smoke or whatever, it'll never go away, david. It'll never go away.
So what do you want? A copy of my dd214? I don't have anything to prove to you. I really don't know what your views are and at this point I really don't care. I have asked honest rational questions, but you want to play. For what it's worth and with you I know that's not a lot but I'm not a liar. Whatever you think of me I really could care less. This is the first post you've done more than throw accusations and slanders at me and I actually agree with most of what you say. But as to your accusations it's really easy for you to sit behind your keyboard and run your mouth...
I'm aware of the responsibility of carrying a gun. I think about it everytime I put mine on. I don't carry it to feel big, or important or to solve my problems. And you are right it's not about the legalities of pulling a gun. It's a whole lot more and I do know what you mean about pulling the trigger and you're right. But "taking the guns away" isn't the answer. Violence is a part of the human condition, and we're a smart and industrious breed we'll find a way to get what we want. I advocate training and responsibility but that's as hard to enforce as a universal gun ban.
Past that if you don't agree with me well you are as entitled to your opinion as I.
The federal gun control laws that we have on the books today are the result of the bipartisan response to the attempted assassination by John Hinckley, Jr. of the Deified Reagan; apparently, both political parties can agree about the undesirability of crazies buying guns when Important Republicans are the ones getting shot. And even then, it took over ten years after the fact, and a Democrat in the White House willing to sign them into law, to get them passed.
This incident makes it clear that the mental health care system in the US is not working.
Sikhism has nothing to do with Muslims or Islam. It comes from India and not Mecca.
The person that did this probably thought he was killing Muslims.
Exactly CA.. As for the mental health issue, the reichwingnuts own that problem from defunding mental health in this country through the years and killing any Dem bill that includes it.
Once again our President delivers condolences to victims and families who were assaulted by weapons of mass destruction in an American city.
The media transmits datum, conjecture and opinions, attempting to divine final death tallies.
The politicians scramble and yammer and impugn their usual suspects, off the record and in vague and remote rhetoric. They panic for fear of the NRA targeting them with verbal political boo-boos and ow-ies if they're challenged. The Pols seek refuge behind ambition and delusion.
The NRA's power is your fear-- that "gun control" means repealing your 2nd Amendment rights. Clearly not.
Gun control is about my right as a citizen of the United States of America to live in a sound society, governed by laws founded on safety, refuge and COMMON SENSE.
Dig it.
I just heard on Fox News Studio B one of the broadcasters talking about the shooting at the mosque. He was talking about the people who were killed, then said something on the order of "What makes him seem REALLY crazy to me is that he shot an officer, one of us", or something on that order." I could not believe my ears. It was like he was dismissing the other victims. I wish I had taped it so I could go back and see if I really heard what I think I heard. If you can listen to Studio B that was playing at around 3:15 EDT today, 8/6, you can hear his comment for yourself.
Gordona:
I gotta hand it to you. Reading this thread, I just witnessed one of the most vile and offensive personal attacks I have seen here. It was your attack on David James.
You damage the reputation of progressives in general when you behave this way. It is shameful. You claim David is guilty of stolen valor, but you damage the integrity of all progressives when you make your argument by using personal attack, insult, and insinuation when you should rightly deal with facts, logic, and reason.
Lay off the snarky, smart-assed remarks. Seriously... they do more damage to you than to any discussion opponent you may face.
I'm starting to wonder if Gordona might be playing both sides of the field.
When Gordona makes attacks against posters like David James that end up painting the progressive participant (Gordona) as an intolerant, agressive, disingenuous @sshole, and the more conservative participant (in this case David James) as relatively more rational and tolerant, then something is rotten in Denmark.
Which side are you really on, Gordona? Are you engaged in a false flag program designed to undermine progressive interests by painting them as intolerant, agressive, disingenuous @ssholes? -Because that is the effective result of your general demeanor when you do what you did above.
Kiev Ukraine, Kiev500, Bruce Vandiver,
There are some regulars on MSNBC who have the posting history to critique Gordona - you, however, are not in a position to judge whether Gordona makes progressives appear to be intolerant and aggressive nor are you in a position to evaluate another poster's rationality and tolerance. That of course is just my opinion - as you seem to have formed an opinion relating to Gordona - I invite interested posters to view your past posts on MSNBC and come to their own conclusions.
Cheers & Regards
Adam_Selene
Hi Adam. I never asked for your approval to make my comments and I'm not about to start. What I said is genuinely heartfelt, and is backed by logic and reason. I do not know the extended history between Gordona and David James, and frankly, it does not matter. There is no acceptable excuse for what Gordona did. It was petty and vindictive, and should be regarded as beneath the accepted standards progressives hold for civil discourse.
By the way, I sense animosity in your deliberate effort to call me out by three different names. Yes, they are all me, but it was unnecessary and indicative of an attempt to intimidate. That's not gonna work. You won't silence me with that tactic.
And yes, my comment history is free for any reader to evaluate. I will link to one of the better examples of my position at the end of this comment. Others are available to anyone who clicks on my post handle. I have made some outrageous claims and can back them up with facts. I have claimed that President Obama is a republican operative working to advance a conservative agenda. Lookit: Obama refused to investigate torture of POWs, therefore he is covering their ass, -and he continues to pursue Dick Cheney's unfinished agenda for regime change in EVERY ARAB STATE in the mid east. Those are my comments.
What I have not done is make a personal attack against any poster here. That is inappropriate and I regard it as out of bounds. One example is Gordona's demand that David show his war wounds, -where he quote "bled for his country". Gordona cannot know David or his experience in service. -That is, unless Gordona is also David. In that scenario, the agenda served is to paint progressives as intolerant, agressive, disingenuous @ssholes, -and conservatives as relatively more rational and tolerant.
As I suggested, something is rotten in Denmark.
Link to example comments from Kiev Ukraine:
http://maddowblog.msnbc.com/_news/2012/08/06/13148770-mondays-mini-report?threadId=3535766&commentId=68676845&__utma=154396583.166218015.1343861687.1344314087.1344314194.9&__utmb=154396583.3.10.1344314194&__utmc=154396583&__utmx=-&__utmz=154396583.1343861687.1.1.utmcsr=(direct)|utmccn=(direct)|utmcmd=(none)&__utmv=154396583.|8=Earned%20By=newsvine%7Cnewsvine=1^12=Landing%20Content=Original=1^13=Landing%20Hostname=bannedagain.newsvine.com=1^30=Visit%20Type%20to%20Content=Earned%20to%20Original=1&__utmk=87581272#c68676845
Kiev Ukraine, Kiev500, Bruce Vandiver,
No - necessary - in that other posters need to be able to review the body of your work over the years.
An attempt to "intimidate" - interesting coming from you - I invite other posters to review your past posts and consider the style of your interactions with others. But no - I am interested neither in "intimidating" you or "silencing" you - only in making other posters aware of your "solutions" - which are certainly interesting.
Yes I am familiar with the link which you kindly posted - I stand in awe of both the word count and the persistence with which you continue to re-post it in various blogs.
As to your constant re-postings - perhaps you would consider some advice from a poster that you should hold in high esteem -
Cheers,
Adam_Selene
Bruce,
This is 7 day old dead topic - so we can continue this on a more current one. I'm sure you will find me.
Regards,
Adam
We can talk when you're ready. It appears either you read Haaretz or you spent an inordinate amount of time and effort looking for that particular quote. Yes, it's mine. And no, it's not completely applicable to your counter-argument. I didn''t repost my massive missive in this thread, I linked it. Second, I make changes to the opening of that piece to keep it relevant to the current discussion, and have only posted it once a week in "open" threads. My complaint to "Logios" at Haaretz was that his piece was carbon-copied over almost every comment thread at the site.
Logios' comments were disingenuous (IMO) suggestions for a US peace policy that would waste most of Obama's 4 year term in office. I was against that. Time is precious and Obama is not blessed with an infinite amount of time. To prove it, here we are at the end of Obama's term, and he has not even managed to get Israel to honor the obligations of previous peace agreements it has signed like the Road Map Agreement. In this respect, Obama is a failure, -unless he was sent to serve Israel's interests. In that respect, he's been a success, but if true it would make him an illegitimate leader.
...
.