When John McCain ran for president four years ago, Mitt Romney was on his short list, and as part of the vetting process, Romney turned over 23 years' worth of tax returns. Soon after, McCain picked a half-term governor of Alaska, whom he barely knew, as his running mate.
Of course, there's been a controversy of late over whether Romney didn't pay taxes for 10 years -- an unsubstantiated rumor passed along by Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid (D-Nev.). Yesterday, Jon Ralston asked McCain whether Reid's claim is true, since McCain would presumably be in a position to know for sure.
For those who can't watch clips online, McCain said he didn't personally review all of the materials from all of the potential running mates, but added, "I am absolutely confident that [Romney] ... did pay taxes. Nothing in his tax returns showed that he did not pay taxes."
That may very well be true, and there's very little evidence to the contrary.
But we keep running into the same problem with this story: voters are simply supposed to take Romney's, and now McCain's, word for it. The candidate and his allies make a lot of claims about what the hidden tax returns show, and the candidate and his allies know the materials are readily available; but the documents are still hidden from public scrutiny.
The moral of the story: trust, but verify. McCain says Romney paid his tax bill, and I certainly hope that's true. But how can voters know for sure unless Romney chooses disclosure over secrecy?
Leave a Comment:
"But we keep running into the same problem with this story: voters are simply supposed to take Romney's, and now McCain's, word for it. The candidate and his allies make a lot of claims about what the hidden tax returns show, and the candidate and his allies know the materials are readily available; but the documents are still hidden from public scrutiny."
How so? This is doing far more damage to Romney than it is to the country. It was a goofy decision on his part. He should have released them right after he announced and gotten the greif then but he didn't. Presumably he thinks he would look weak by posting them now (not that he looks strong at any time)
The solution in any case is simple. Don't vote for Romney if this is an issue that it important to you.
Just don't vote for Robme if this is an issue for you:
Good idea. Other than this: it is the media's job to verify if this information is correct or not.
And it is only just not a matter of Robme hiding his tax information: it points directly to what type of person who hides this information is and how this person will govern this country.
Robme has a history of lies and deception: he did the exact same thing with his taxes 10 years ago. He had the hard drives wiped clean at the end of his term as governor, and the Salt Lake Olympics records have been sealed.
You completely miss the point that Benen is making here.
ROMoNEY just seems to have a problem with transparency: tax returns, offshore accounts, foreign bank accounts, Bain experience, retroactive retiring, Massachusetts hard drives, economic plan details, Medicare plans, ...
Yep, just trust Mitt. Because he's repeatedly shown himself to be a straight shooter. You know when Mitt's telling you something, it's the unvarnished truth.
Reversible Mittens hasn't seemed to have had any trouble changing his position on other issues - sometimes within the same day. Yet he's showing curious consistency of stubborn arrogance on this.
Willard - you showed McCain 23 years of tax returns in the hope of being Vice President - show some more than you have to us if you want to be President!
I demand to see the long-form worth certificates!
;-)
RoMoney says he paid what taxes he was "legally required" to pay. He was legally required to pay $0; he paid it.
The point is more about him repeatedly saying "Just trust me" in answer to every request. Only a fool enters a contract or hires an employee whose answer is "Trust Me."
I'm not a fool, Mr. RoMoney. You show me your tax returns as other candidates have; you show me your Plan for the economy; you show my your plan for Jobs, jobs, jobs. SHOW ME because I won't just "Trust You." !!!
Did his returns indicate that he paid income taxes? Its more than a bit curious to me that this keeps getting denied in a way that doesn't really refute what Reid is saying. If Harry Reid is wrong and there wasn't a time that Romney paid zero or close to zero Federal income taxes, why not just say so? "I paid a significant amount in Federal income taxes for all the years in question." Simple.
Exactly. The fact that both Romney and McCain, as well as many lesser surrogates, keep dancing around this point is what makes me convinced there's something to it. It's hard to see any reason to avoid saying "no, he never paid zero income taxes" unless you're afraid that Reid's source could prove it's a lie.
Then the media would say did he pay Federal taxes up front and then get a refund later?
This is a now win situation for him, no matter what he does. You can say he did it to himself or that Axelrod did it to him, but the result is the same.
Actually him not releasing his taxes. Is a bigger win, than him actually releasing them. Because the way it is now. The election is close. And he has for the most part. Allowed people to believe a lie (if it is in fact a lie) than to prove them wrong. The only reason anybody does that. Is if the truth is far worse than the lie that's being told.
Then why doesn't Robme release his taxes then?
Because it will show that he could very well have paid 0 taxes or a tax rate that is a hell of alot lower than many people paid.
It would also show all of his off shore accounts.
Face it: Robme is keeping his returns hidden because what is in them would do him much harm. And he knows it.
@bannedagain: Questions about his returns will, of course, continue until he releases the returns and rightfully so. He has decided to live with that. So be it. He is not going to make that go away.
But with respect to answering this specific question, he has rather assiduously avoided doing so in a way that provides any clarity on the truth or falsity of Reid's claim. If the claim is wrong he could say so in language that addresses the claim directly. He has chosen not to do so. I find that very curious.
calvin:
you could be correct that there is something heinous involved but what could be worse than the speculation?
brent:
given what we know of his history, he is a very cautious calculating person, so I assume he has made some very specific judgements about the risk reward ratio, not that he has reached the correct conclusion
Rawmoney had illegal foreign-account tax shelters for years until he took advantage of tax amnesty? (best bet given the conspicuous absence of FBARs from the only returns he's... partially... released)
Rawmoney failed to pay the proper amount of tax required, or paid it "retroactively"?
Rawmoney has major investments in a company that makes gloves and handbags from the skins of only the cutest kittens and puppies?
Any or all of the above?
Come on, Willard, prove me wrong! Release your complete tax returns!
;-)
Did McCain tell a little white lie to cover for Romney? I don't think McCain knows because he didn't see Romneys' tax returns. So, he can't answer the question honestly.
You are not required to believe McCain lied. All McCain was, "Nothing in his tax returns indicated he did not pay taxes." This is a weasel response.
Brent's point stands. Politicians are well practiced in the art of ambiguity and plausible deniability. You can pay near zero Federal income taxes but have a return that indicates you paid a "lot" of taxes.
Examples of taxes that would show up in his federal returns are deductions for
For example, on PDF page 22 of Romney's 2010 return, he claims $150,000 foreign tax credit. Say the 2010 return showed Romney not paying any US income taxes. Looking at the return you can conclude and factually state he paid a "lot" of taxes.
Two questions of clarification:
"I pay a lot of taxes. A LOT of taxes."
Really? Which taxes?
Did you pay more taxes to foreign governments than to the US government?
How much and why is money in off shore accounts?
Why is he a member of a Cayman Island based LLC?
What was his effective rate?
This needs to be brought up every day until they come into public scrutiny, otherwise Rmoney is lying.. (GIANT SURPRISE!)...
I honestly think that the reason why Mitt. Will not release his tax returns. Is not because he didn't pay any taxes. But what he actually paid taxes on. Because if his taxes say he paid a very low amount in taxes. And only on paid taxes on a small portion of his total income. Than Mitt is worse off than he is now, by not releasing them.
Because someone running for public office. Only ever does not do something. Most people/ voters want them to do. Is because the outcome, of them doing it, is far worse than if they do not.
What ever is in Mitt's taxes. We know two things for certain. One it's bad enough for McCain to have picked Palin instead of Mitt. And two, Mitt seriously thinks, releasing them. Would cost him the election by huge margins.
I agree with most but the Palin part. There's no reason to believe that McCain was ever going to pick Romney. The fact that he picked Palin suggests the opposite. He was looking for something completely different, not a "safe" running mate.
McCain picked Palin to garner the women vote. Which even as toxic as she was/is. Palin was still a better pick. Than anybody else who was being vetted. And for Romney to have turned over 23 years of Tax Returns. And still be out picked by Palin. No matter what the intent was. Still looks bad for Romney. Because Palin is considered by most people, a moron at best.
I agree, Calvin.
Mitt's taxes must have been a holy mess for him to go with Palin.
And Mitt is really hurting himself by not releasing his taxes. Which means that they must be pretty bad.
Candidates at the Top of the Ticket are Big Picture Guys. They don't personally sort through tax returns, college transcripts, arrest records;- underlings do that. Or say they did.
As for picking a VP, we know from the previous Administration, that too is outsourced. "Bring me a list, with you recommendations." And we know how that worked out!
As to why McCain picked Palin, we will never know. And that also goes for 'Crash and Burn' McCain, as well. (Heck, he didn't even know how many houses he had!)
Hey Romney Camp - You want to move forward in your campaign? Show us your taxes! -Kevo
I really don't care about Romney's, or any other politiian's, tax returns. I still have confidence in the IRS that, if he were doing something illegal, they would have caught him by now. At his level of income, he is probably audited every year.
What difference does it make whether he paid 0% or 30%, as long as it's legal. What can be done if he paid no taxes legally. The beef should be against the convoluted tax code, not a person mimimizing taxes.
This is just another distraction so Obama can avoid talking about issues and his record.
Obama addresses issues and talks about his record - which he has every right to be proud of - every single day. It's Romney who daily runs from his only record of public service, and is now also running from his record at Bain Capital.
Romney's budget slashes taxes for himself and his rich friends, and raises them on everyone else. Right now, I pay the double the rate of taxes that Romney reported he paid (he reported paying 14%), and Romney also took a medical deduction on a show horse for an amount that's more than my yearly salary - yet he's pledging to kick millions off their health insurance. If Romney has paid no taxes for 10 years, and yet plans to make the vast majority of Americans pay higher taxes - that is outrageous. It also leaves him even less of a leg to stand on to complain about the deficit, when he's been dodging contributing his fair share of revenue.
On another note, listening closely to McCain's responses in this interview, it seems clear he doesn't have a clue any more than the rest of us do as to whether Romney actually paid any taxes. Even if McCain's team saw this, why would they bring it to his attention since conservatives don't believe that dodging taxes is a problem. That's why Romney's campaign is flailing over this. It didn't occur to them that anyone would frown upon his stashing millions overseas, stuffing $100M into an IRA account, and paying an absurdly low tax rate.
Still not sure if that was attempt to prevent two dull people on critical stump. Though the same model with Romney Ryan likely will end up same way.
I am sure glad Paul Ryan's nomination hasn't caused TRMS to forget about Romney's refusal to show his tax returns. How about the rest of the media?
Romney paid his taxes. He also took massive write-offs on loses during the Great Recession. He has shown all he needs in taxes and this argument is a distraction. Where is his jobs plan? Where is his tax plan? If you wish to be partisan then please attack him for following the laws, I would rather question his ideas.
Tom,
The tax issue goes to his understanding of the role of an American President. He wants us to give him a job. There are certain expectations. Showing a significant number of tax returns is one of them. Those returns help us gauge his honesty and integrity. By refusing to release them he is showing contempt for the American tradition and in his own way his contempt for America. His refusal tax returns are a big f**king deal and we are entitled to draw any inference we want to draw from that refusal.
His taxes and the manner in which he paid them, whether it's $0 or less than 14% or some other amount he appears to be ashamed of, is as important, if not more important than whatever issue he should be talking about as a candidate. It's a matter of core values: honesty, accountability, and maybe even interest. If a large portion of his income had been shipped off to the Cayman Islands, that says a lot about his interest in thinking about his countrymen. If he hasn't paid his taxes or had managed to legally avoid A LOT of taxes, then this speaks to his honesty and accountability. This is immensely important in that it will reflect whatever policy plans he wants to put into effect. We are questioning his integrity because he's running for POTUS.
??? Are you freakin' kidding? Speak for yourself, bubba!
He hasn't shown nearly as much as any other Presidential candidate in modern history! He hasn't shown as much as anyone trying to buy a house needs to, and he's trying to buy the White House, for Pete's sake!
Where are the FBARs from the couple of measly partial returns he's condescended to show us so far? With no earlier returns revealed, how do you know he didn't squirrel huge money away in his various foreign accounts, avoiding taxes that should have been owed? If he avoided paying taxes, and then took advantage of the IRS's amnesty program for tax cheats, that says a lot about his patriotism, or lack thereof.
I'd kinda like to know about this before installing this arrogant prick as Chief Executive, thankyouverymuch.
I demand to see the long-form worth certificates!
;-)
when this first came up as an issue, i thought the reason he wouldn't release the returns was because he thought evangelicals(this was back in the days of the primaries) would flip out at the dollar amount he'd given his church. now it seems credible that he in fact DIDN'T pay any income tax in 2009. if you listen to mccain, and others,they carefully mention 'taxes' without explicitly specifying the type of taxes he paid
Conservative pundits (Limbaugh, Hannity and others) are reminding their audience about Paul Ryan mentors like Bill Bennett. This teacher of virtues famously said; " if black women aborted their children, we wouldn't have this much crime in our country". Hmmm, interesting, it sounds like very, very racist statement. Until now, I never heard Paul Ryan commenting on this extreme racism. Romney should use the sign " Romney and ARyan for President " in their presidential campaign.
Mr. Peabody's Wayback Machine (for those of you who know what that is.).
Colin Powell and others from the Bush administration are confronted on their supposed facts about WMDs and al Qaeda connections in Iraq. Other countries simply can't confirm what the Bush administration says they've found. Additionally, the American public is having second thoughts about the justifications. Response from the Bush administration? "Trust us."
Sorry, but I'll go by the Jean Shepherd title of her book. "In God We Trust. All others pay cash."
SHE is a singer.
HE is the author of aforesaid book, in 1966. Much of which appeared in the film "A Christmas Story", (1983, and narrated by Shepherd.) It has become a holiday classic, and many here can no doubt recall a favorite scene- even recite the dialog. "You'll shoot your eye out!"
Ho! Ho! Ho!
;-)
McCain said that Romney "paid taxes." The Governor owns several houses. I assume he paid property taxes. Are these the taxes he has in mind when he says he "paid taxes?"
There's some disconnect here. On the one hand McCain says he hasn't "personally reviewed" Romney tax returns, and on the other hand he wants us to believe "Nothing in his tax returns showed that he did not pay taxes." Both can't be true.
Why not? They are both Rich, White Republicans. You just have to trust them.
RitaCh - I agree there is a disconnect. McCain's wording is odd: "Nothing in his tax returns showed that he did not pay taxes." My question to that is "So did anything in his tax returns show that he DID pay taxes?"
I do, however, bellieve Blinky when he says he did not personally review Romney's tax returns. He just did what his GOP masters told him, and went with Palin for VP. Just like Romney did this weekend with Ryan.
Bill Bennett who was Paul Ryan's mentor fameusly said : " if black women aborted their children we wouldn't have this much crime in our country ". The pupil Paul Ryan never confronted his racist teacher aboutthis extreme racist statement. In this case Romney's team should use their campaign sign, "ROMNEY AND ARYAN FOR PRESIDENT" They can count on all racists from their Tea Party blend.
George Romney was CEO of American Motors, Governor of Michigan, ran HUD for Nixon, and ran for President.
Mitt Romney was CEO of Bain, Governor of Massachusetts, ran the Olympics, and -- WON the GOP NOMINATION for President.
"Hah hah Dad. I win!"
Sure, he'd like to be President, but since that's not going to happen anyway he will keep his tax returns private, thank-you-very-much. As long as he got further than his dad, he's happy. Maybe one of his sons can be President some day.
Which son? Biff? Tagg? Flern?
;-)
Filing just to collect a Earned Income Credit does not count as paying taxes. But then McCain wasn't too careful in how he vetted Palin either.
Because Romney carried forward $5 MIL in losses in 2010, we can assume he had even larger losses applied against his taxes in 2009. So, like 47% of Americans in 2009, Willard Mitt Romney may well have paid NO FEDERAL INCOME TAXES.
While that is hardly saying he paid NO TAXES, it happens to be the complaint that Republicans make against the tax code, that 47% of Americans pay NO (federal income) TAXES. It's perfectly legal that they didn't, but still Republicans seem to think it's 'immoral' for them not to support America.
So if Romney didn't pay ANY (federal income) TAXES in 2009, is he immoral too?
What if Romney is not hiding how much he paid in taxes BUT how much he and his wife are worth? Has anybody tried to add up the income/ IRA / "off-shore account" numbers that are available? Could it be that Romney is BILLIONAIRE - not millionaire...and how is that going to play to the American public?
Just off of what we do know about Mitt's finances. 250 million in one year. Multiple off shore accounts estimated at 20-100's of millions. And IRA that has a 100 million in it. If anybody thinks that Mitt isn't a Billionaire. Than they need their head examined. And needs to retake a math class.
People know that Mitt is Rich. What they don't know is HOW Rich. It's one thing to be a millionaire and run for POTUS. But the vast majority of the US. Would never knowingly vote for a Billionaire for POTUS. People say Mitt is looking out for the 1%. But knowing he IS the 1%. And he plummets in the polls. It'll be like having Gordon Geko run for POTUS.
Talk about coincidence –hmmm.
There is an article posted on AlterNet by Lynn Parramore – 8/14/12 www.alternet.org
Paul Ryan denies any impropriety on his part. Here is a portion of the article:
Seems that on September 18, 2008, while the rest of us were freaking out about our
homes, our pensions, and our jobs, the congressman was huddled in a meeting
with Bernanke, Hank Paulson, and others who warned that the banking industry
was about to blow up, big time.
Ryan's office denies that he personally profited from the heads-up. But public records tell a different story. The Guardian outlines what really went down:
"On the same day as the meeting, Ryan sold stock in troubled banks including Wachovia and Citigroup and bought shares in Goldman Sachs, Paulson's old employer and a bank that had been disclosed to be stronger than many of its rivals. The sale was not illegal at the time.
Not long after the meeting, Wachovia's already troubled share price went into free fall. It plunged 39% on the afternoon of 26 September alone as investors worried the bank would collapse. It was eventually taken over by Wells Fargo for $15bn, a fraction of
its former value.
Citigroup's share price fell soon after the meeting. In October 2008 Citigroup was among the largest beneficiary of the troubled asset relief program (Tarp), the taxpayer-funded bailout of the banking sector."
It comes as no surprise that Mr. Ryan gave a thumbs up to the TARP bailout -- in contrast to many of his fellow Republicans -- and that Goldman Sachs and Wells Fargo rank among his biggest supporters.
o.k. i'll agree that willard did in fact pay taxes during those disputed years, but that's about as weaselly as you can get. sure, he paid (sales) taxes when his valet or maid picked up a couple of jars of beluga caviar. but, what about his INCOME TAXES!!!?. equating his payment of the everyday taxes that plague us peasants to be the same as "paying taxes" is about as honest as saying "vietnam era veterans" dan quayle and dubya served in war.
C'mon folks! The real question should be whether he met the requirements, not how much he paid.
Even if he paid zero income taxes, or any other taxes, he more than likely did it legally. I'm sure that he has just taken advantage of the opportunities that are there for all of us if we can only play at his level. We try to do it every year for ourselves, simply by searching the directions for write-offs and allowable deductions. You and I would do exactly the same if we could and then we'd probably chuckle over the "win."
I do get the perception problem that he would have with the rest of us if he paid zero income tax, or single digit income tax, but that doesn't make him a bad man.
Look, I don't like Mitt as a candidate, but Mr. Reid's statement implies wrongdoing, not just paying zero when zero might actually be the right amount in Mitt's case.
Respectfully Submitted,
Force 12
Zero? The right amount of income tax on a multi-million dollar income?? Bite me!
In any case, I demand to see the long-form worth-certificates!
;-)
Maybe he doesn't want to show how much he has contributed to his church.