And Jindal won't accept any help from the government...right?

No kidding when he's always talking bad about the President. Here is the President releasing funds.

Votes!!!

In fact Jindel is asking for more funds! He says Obama hasn't given him enough.

shooter242
June 11, 2012 at 6:54 am

I’d like to encourage more trollery on left wing sites. Specifically pushback on common memes such as identified by Jonah Goldberg as unchallenged cliches. It can actually work, and it can actually change the course of debate.

For instance, I always challenge “the rich take too much of the pie” meme. There is no pie, no one decides who gets what, and the “pie” is a measure of contributions to a total. Ergo the rich don’t take they contribute. It’s been gratifyingly effective.

Try it you’ll like it. Don’t curse and keep the personal insults to a bare minimum, don’t allow moving goal posts or distractions. Ignore trollish responders, and be four times more civil. They hate that.

http://moelane.com/2012/06/09/troll-hunting-101/

We do not have the right to judge a person religion. I would suggest caution because we do not know for sure what exactly happen. If we become the judge, jury and executioner, we are no better than the people we are judging. We need to work on understanding and working to change these laws, but not attacking them for it. I think many of us has grown up with a western view and do not understand what people in other parts of the world religion and customs.

Donna,

Why is shooter's comment on the beheadings considered a troll-like comment to you? It did happen and it was for stupid reasons like co-mingling and dancing. And to me something like that happening in 2012 DOES put things in perspective.

Standing Turtle,

You are right, but this is what is out there about it:

KABUL, Afghanistan (AP) — Insurgents beheaded 17 civilians in a Taliban-controlled area of southern Afghanistan, apparently because they attended a dance party that flouted the extreme brand of Islam embraced by the militants, officials said Monday.

The killings, in a district where U.S. Marines have battled the Taliban for years, were a reminder of how much power the insurgent group still wields in the south — particularly as international forces draw down and hand areas over to Afghan forces.

The victims were part of a large group that had gathered late Sunday in Helmand province's Musa Qala district for a celebration involving music and dancing, said district government chief Neyamatullah Khan. He said the Taliban slaughtered them to show their disapproval of the event.

It is true that we cannot judge another person's religion, but in places like Kabul it seems some very orthodox religious people are the judge, jury and executioner to their fellow countrymen.

skippy,

if you have to ask me that question you are just as big a troll as blanks.

You make no sense Donna. Unless you think Shooter is making up the beheading "fact". You and others just can't stand any comment that is different than yours. I would expect closemindedness on a far right wing site, but apparently that is not exclusive to right wingers - left wingers are pretty much the same - my way or the highway type mentality.

And you make no sense, skippy.

You also show that you are just as big a troll as blanks. Left wingers(as you call them) are getting intolerant of your bull@!$%# and are calling you and blanks out for it.

Calling us out? How so. This is not a contest. Actually this blog is not really much of anything. Just a mere handful of people spending idle time on our computers. What I say or you say is meaningless here. Just like a conversation at a party. We are mostly just stating our take on the news and our opinions. If you don't like my (or shooters opinion) then state yours in reply. That is how this should work. No need to call people names or swear.

THIS is no big deal....seriously. Calling someone out here? Yeah right. Ya really put us in our place Donna. :)

The civilians be-headed by the Taliban is another example of the dangers of religious extremists.

The current efforts by the Republicans to limit health care options (including abortions) for women - and wage equality and other issues - should not be equated with be-headings.

But the very real and profound NEGATIVE effect of these policies on the quality of life for women should not be ignored.

These policies should NOT BE TOLERATED.

@skip

Shooter's comment is a strawman. He's attempting to obfuscate the complaints levied against Republicans by mentioning something that happened in another country as if that somehow has relevancy in American politics when it comes to gender based local policies. The reality is Shooter's comment is a nonsequitur and has no cogent merit or indeed a contributing argument to the story.

You're welcome to disagree with what happened, but the main focus of the article is that of the complexities of religious extremism and the role it plays in our complicated conflict in Afghanistan. Or, in other words, nothing to do with American attitudes about abortion, contraception, and the like as policy and therefore nothing to do with the far reaching tie-in made by Shooter. It would be like me accusing oranges of causing the weather problems in Florida. You know, because there are oranges in Florida. It is such a disjointed relationship that if I were being meaner I'd say Shooter may want to seriously consider getting screened for schizophrenia. And no I don't say that because I am opposed to oppositional arguments; I say that because only in the mind of a schizophrenic or someone suffering from some sort of dementia would such two non-related subjects be coherently linked.

I have no clue what you are talking about. Are you saying we all should be grateful not being Talibans? I agree with that although seems like we are heading towards a religious state so it may not last much longer. And with that the same standard of living.

Cartoon,

The hyperbole of declaring a "war on women" because a woman at one institution is denied free contraception as a result of the employers religious beliefs - when compared to a real life and death war on women - is heinous.

The comparison of women's situation here and there makes a mockery of the "war on women" theme, and frankly renders the feminist movement a sham. Being beheaded for merely speaking to men is unfathomable.

If you want to isolate the situation of American women from the rest of the world, fine. But that tells me you're more interested in legalism than women as a group.

The hyperbole of declaring a "war on women" because a woman at one institution is denied free contraception as a result of the employers religious beliefs - when compared to a real life and death war on women - is heinous.

But you have made the statement before that there is a war on coal, a war on religion, and a war on freedom. I agree that this is hyperbole that shouldn't be used, but if this is a position that you're going to argue then you can't use it. Once you do you lose all rights to complaining about the extremism.

The comparison of women's situation here and there makes a mockery of the "war on women" theme, and frankly renders the feminist movement a sham. Being beheaded for merely speaking to men is unfathomable.

No it doesn't. First and foremost you are generalizing and assuming that there is no aspect of the feminist movement working to assist people in other countries. This is a false assumption as there are many organizations that specifically target women to empower them and foster equality in other nations. Our presence in that country can be argued as an extension of feminism in order to expand equality between the genders. The war on women theme, however, is a theme regarding the targeted policies of the Republican Party towards that of women and how they are aimed at oppressing women in the United States. Again these two situations aren't related. You are making a connection here that does not exist.

If you want to isolate the situation of American women from the rest of the world, fine. But that tells me you're more interested in legalism than women as a group.

So you initially begin by using hyperbole and decrying it as an exaggeration in the face of reality, only to then commit the same act in regards to my statement? The argument I made was that you cannot make a comparison to what goes on in American politics to what goes on in other countries. It's a logical fallacy. You're making a connection here that does NOT exist. You're saying that because the Taliban did something in another country that in no way directly affects the political atmosphere here in America that this therefore debunks the notion that the Republican Party is attempting to pass policies that discriminate and harm women in the United States. The two subjects are simply NOT related enough for you to be making this claim.

If your post had been that you are outraged about what happened to the men and women at this party then I would be in agreement with you. Instead you wanted to take a situation that you are pretending to be upset about and politicize that situation to be an attack against feminists and Democrats. Is it entirely lost on you how opportunistic, hyperbolic, and hypocritical your actions are?

Sorry, but I can't recall using the phrase "war on" for any topic. I'm guessing it's a liberal theme, such as the "war on poverty". The left likes to use martial imagery combined with victimology. And good for a chuckle

Expressing the war in Afghanistan as a feminist outreach program is certainly novel. And good for a chuckle. If feminism is trying to liberate Muslim women from virtual slavery they are doing a great job of hiding it. Considering how vocal they are about evangelical policies, one has to assume they are afraid of repercussions from Muslim men. Not exactly brave, yes? And still, you accuse Republicans of repression? The lives in the womb saved, would likely call Republicans saviors.

Returning to the "war on women", doesn't that imply physical violence upon women? Of course it does. But it isn't true. Democrats are trying to emotionally manipulate their opponents and the MSM to their cause, by using an image of an actual life and death war on women occurring around the world. It's inappropriate and a mockery of real life. Hypocrisy is too weak a word to describe this.

Shooter

Here's feminist organization helpin Afghan women

http://www.womenforafghanwomen.org/

Please put that in your pipe and smoke it.

Lol well said!

Harry Reid has never padi taxes either. That's the inescapable conclusion based on his refusal to release his tax returns.

Funny how Reid became a millionaire while never holding down anything but a government job.

Yeah banned it is interesting how a lot of people in Congress end up being much more richer than their government salary would enable them. Are they moonlighting? :)

John Kerry was worth over $100 million when he ran for President. I wonder what most Democrat leaning people thought of that. Was/is he an elitist out of touch with us regular folks?

Kerry married well, very well. You can't blame a man for that!

Hey, you all quit clouding the issue with opposing facts. It won't be long before Donna calls you out.

What opposing facts are you referring to Rob? Skip was making a counter argument on the basis of the Tweet. His counter argument is not factually based, but argumentatively based (meaning Skip is addressing the statement in terms of it's logical consistency). That is not fact checking, but it is checking for cogency. Presumably no cogency means no truth (or at least as it applies to Ockham's Razor). While this is a necessary function to perform (and I happen to agree with Skip's analysis) it is not presenting counter factual information.

John Kerry was worth over $100 million when he ran for President. I wonder what most Democrat leaning people thought of that. Was/is he an elitist out of touch with us regular folks?

One of the most common critiques levied against Kerry by Democrats (including commentator's Jon Stewart and Bill Maher who are often cited on this blog as representatives of the Democratic Party) was that he was out of touch and robotic in nature. Another common criticism was that he was boring.

So apparently Democrats think the same thing regardless. However I should point out that I do not believe Democratic voters see being wealthy inherently against a person's ability to run a country or be empathetic to the problems facing 99% of American workers. But I do think it becomes an issue of one's ability to express that empathy and an issue of policy oriented to help the problems facing the 99%.

Just saying John Kerry is a bad example to prove your point, Skip.

Cartoon, sorry for the confusion...I was referring to the original post. The one charging Romney of hiding something in his taxes has not released his taxes and has become a mutual-millionaire through public service...what is he hiding?

As to your last comment:

But I do think it becomes an issue of one's ability to express that empathy and an issue of policy oriented to help the problems facing the 99%.

I agree.

That would still not be a factual issue. That would be an argumentative issue.

This whole "just like us" argument always intriques me. So now we are supposed to only elect a President that shops for his own hardware and clothes and does his own ironing? Will that make that person better prepared to make hard decisions in an international crisis or how to create jobs and improve the economy? I highly doubt the President Obama does any of this stuff now and I personally do not think it is very important at all. There are a ton of blue collar workers - mostly male that do not iron their clothes, or cook, or even shop for groceries or clothes. Does that make THEM elitist or "out of touch". I mean is this what we should be talking about for the election?

Phony is a nice term for Willard.

Lol. After following the election for ..zomg ..close to a year now....my educated guess is that Ann wants to become first lady more than Mitt wants to become President. That explains a lot!!

joca41

Did you know that Ann Romney bought Mitt three new shirt's at Cosco?

We used to have a name for that kind of behavior where I come from - we called it "slumming".

Shut up peasant and vote for Romney.

Nor explained how he got so rich on real estate investing.

How dare you! Trust Romney, his word is as solid as a ..uhh..uhhh ... a weather vane!

It's kinda funny how we talk about a presidential candidate and all the RW an "moderates" (cough) are turning it into a Reid examination, not so much caring about what Rmoney really has on his agenda for us lowly 20%-25% tax rate payers. Let's see … are we really talking about what's best for wealthy folks or the rest of us?

Focus on the policies, isn't that what the candidate said?

How can we trust you when if you won't tell us about your plans for us? It just looks like same-o same-o take care of businesses trickle (piss) down upon us down here. Stop accusing everyone else of hiding stuff and just show us the tax returns and your budget plan. We can only speculate and wonder what the hell we are looking at, the real deal, not your made up fantasies with Ayn Rand followers leading the charge.

Will you and bannedagain be ending your complaints about America when a Republican is once more in office?

Four weeks should get them to election day....

The Volt is "doing great" and gaining sales each month and GM officials expect to report strong August sales as well, said GM spokesman Dave Darovitz.

Sales of the plug-in hybrid car are up 272 percent since last year, but are below initial expectations when GM launched the Volt in late 2010, followed by its near-identical version for Europe, the Opel Ampera.

Your claim that the Volt production has slowed because of bad sales is debunked in the article that you used as your source.

According to the company spokesman the slowdown is because they need the manufacturing plant available for production of the Impala (which is one of their highest selling vehicles). They are moving the jobs from Canada to here in the US. This is actually proof that sales and production are doing far better than GM expected.

Or, in other words, the exact opposite of the claim you are making.

And why did they paint the fence blue and not red!! And they didn't hire my nephew for it!!! It's a conspiracy!!!!

Oh and a NON STATE company paying ppl while restructuring is too and will bankrupt us!!!

Your claim that the Volt production has slowed because of bad sales is debunked in the article that you used as your source.

We must be reading different articles. Let me quote the source and then add more information:

Sales of the plug-in hybrid car are up 272 percent since last year, but are below initial expectations when GM launched the Volt in late 2010, followed by its near-identical version for Europe, the Opel Ampera.

See the last half of the sentence..."below initial expectations?" While 272 percent sounds exciting it has to be put into context. The volt has sold 17% of what they had expected to sale. They have over 150 days of stock.

You don't shut down a production line of a car that is selling well even to make another car, you work to increase production of BOTH. They are keeping this plant open by changing cars...if you don't see that you don't understand the business.

And the article you link to confirms, again, that you are misrepresenting them. The spokesperson stated that they had ramped up production of the Volt at that very same factory ahead of time knowing that the factory in Ottawa was going to be shut down. As I said GM is attempting to open more facilities here in America and close down their factories in other countries. Apparently in your mind shipping jobs to America is evidence that America has lost it's edge- interesting. Anyways because they ramped up production ahead of time they now are stalling production of the Volt in anticipation of the Impala. For the record this facility will still continue producing the Volt. You are saying they were 17% below expectation. Yes- but they sold 272% more Volts than they did last year. Companies would not shut down a plant with sales that well. You are- yet AGAIN- making an assumption about something for which you have no evidence. You assume it must be X and is therefore evidence that the bailout failed (which, for the record, means you're cheering against a US company). The fact that the Volt made tens of thousands of sales and the fact that GM is bringing jobs back to the US is, again, evidence to the contrary.

I also find it ironic that you can complain about there being a recession in one post and then simultaneously ignore the recession when attempting to assert that the bailout was a flop. Apparently the recession only affects the area conservatives want it to affect. Logical fallacies are fun.

As soon as I hit the Lotto, I am buying a Volt. The only reason is the price is too high. The Volt is my ideal car. I can charge it off my solar panels and drive locally, then for longer trips, the high MPG kicks in. Perfect! Just need more money or lower price.

There are too many people trying to obstruct and denounce a very GOOD product, home grown, U.S. jobs. :), jobs in Michigan from Ottawa!

Why do people not want to be energy secure in solar electric and wind, but ONLY oil and fracking. We are going to continue to need oil, natural gas and coal, but let's get renewable, clean energy now and stop the progress toward that. There are MANY jobs there and less refinery fires tainted ground water (and wasted water) and oil gushing into oceans.

Oh, my...cartoon:

You are saying they were 17% below expectation.

No, I said they had only sold 17% of expectations...there's a huge difference. They expected to sell 60,000 and have sold barely 10,000. And...

The fact that the Volt made tens of thousands of sales...

Did you mean "ten" of thousands because they haven't made it to that 2nd "ten" yet.

And you think I've got my facts wrong?

And to Sandy, I hope you get the lotto or at least your Volt. I too think we need to develop all areas of energy, especially the renewables.

I think there is too much "dissing" the Volt and electric vehicles in general. The price is very high, which does not help sell them. Don't forget, pay cuts, rising costs make it harder to buy anything. This has nothing to do with taxes.

I believe this is a farce that lowering already low taxes will help economy and jobs. We've had them and the money went elsewhere, not so much invested in U.S. k=jobs.

I don't understand why the Faux News keeps banging the drum to diss GM and appear to try to persuade people away from Volt and EVs, solar and wind. It seems reflexive reaction, if Democrats want it push back. Even if it means renewable, clean home grown energy with jobs.

I don't get that. Conservative former GM CEO Bob Lutz says Faux needs to stop doing that and assume a more "energy security" position and support the electric vehicles, especiall a U.S. company.

We really need to stop working against ourselves for some political ideology. I would say the anti Volt, anti GM is political and not in U.S. interests to continue to block and sway users and buyers against solar, wind, electric cars.

I would really like people to stop working against us because some tv shills say ratings or sales are low and it just sounds wrong. Well, it sounds pretty right to a very large number of AMERICANS and non Americans. This is America, it's not Europe, it's not a brand, it's all our country. Change is tough, but we want something clean and renewable. et's work from a point of agreement instead of trying to say absolutely not, because it sounds liberal. Well, it sounds American to me. We are never, never, never going to agree on all things, this is America, embrace that and try to remember the people in this country. Those that worked decades and those just graduating or just starting school. We all need to do better. This stinks to say, no we won't do anything, because he's a Democrat or a liberal or she's pro life. Fine, be pro life, but I am pro freedom and privacy. Well, we are not going to all of a sudden start agreeing, but why put down GM and Volt, teachers, police, electric cars?

Can we just get back to being partners? Business partners with employees and they all serve customers, which all contribute to economy. Sending jobs away and not hiring people in U.S. is not helping the economy.

Obama is not anti business, he said that they use public (read government) funds for their business, so if they are not contributing by hiring Americans, then they should not get those tax breaks and subsidies. Regulating Commerce is in the U.S. Constitution. End of story.

Sandy, I too wish there were more bipartisanship and cooperation but the reality is neither side at this point is interested.

I agree, I don't think Obama is anti-business nor do I think Republicans have a war on women.

I see the bias on Fox News but I see the same misrepresentation on MSNBC. As example, the GM plant did not close until AFTER Obama took office despite the MSNBC commentators claims otherwise.

I would like to be idealistic but reality, at least for now, dictates otherwise.

Still hoping you get your Volt.

Thanks RobDon, me too.

I do think there are millions of women who view the actions of the Republicans as an assault on their rights to decide on their own what they do and I view it that way, instead of how someone on that plank would call someone else's child bearing or birth control their business.

But it says here 12/23/2008 last car went off the assembly line, so…

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/ezra-klein/wp/2012/08/30/obama-could-not-have-saved-janesville-gm-plant-it-closed-before-he-took-office/

June 3, 2008 – GM decides to close the Janesville plant

But facts are irrelevant, because people just feel angry (as the media directs their minds to be). What a sad thing to live in America and businesses, politicians and media make everyone SO angry. But it doesn't need to be that way.

I forgot to put this link in.

http://factcheck.org/2012/08/ryans-vp-spin/

Rob

FYI there is a photo of the last vehicle off the Janesville assembly line

http://cafewitteveen.wordpress.com/2012/08/31/must-be-a-typo-last-vehicle-off-the-janesville-assembly-line-december-2008/

Please note it is dated December 23, 2008. Obama was not in office so....

(buzzer) Thank you for playing but you're wrong Rob. But please accept these lovely consolation prizes. Jim tell Rob what he has won (cue sixites game show music) ;-)

Interesting, thanks. Nice and tidy with sources.