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The Republican National Convention's schedule has been truncated a bit, moving from a four-day affair to a three-day gathering, but there was some action on the convention floor yesterday. As Rachel noted last night, RNC Chairman Reince Priebus officially banged the gavel, kicking off the show. The proceedings lasted seven minutes.
But note what else happened when the gavel came down.
As Republicans gather in Tampa, Fla., for their convention, party leaders want to drive home a message to voters: The federal debt is hurtling toward $16 trillion, and it is President Obama's fault.
That's the gist of what the party chairman, Reince Priebus, said as he banged a gavel to open the convention Monday afternoon. The banging activated a "debt clock" in the convention hall that tallies the amount the debt accumulating during the four-day event. A second ticker that started running earlier displays the total national debt.
Mr. Priebus said the clocks served to draw attention to the "unprecedented fiscal recklessness of the Obama administration."
Reality is clearly fighting a losing battle, but when it comes to the debt clock, the political world should at least try to avoid collective amnesia.
Towards the end of President Clinton's second term, debt clocks that had been established in various U.S. locations had to be shut down -- the deficit had been eliminated and the clocks had never been set to run backwards.
They started back up again during the Bush/Cheney era. Republicans took a massive surplus and turned it into an even more massive deficit, adding the costs of two wars, two tax cuts, Medicare expansion, and a Wall Street bailout to the national charge card.
Sen. Orrin Hatch (R-Utah) later referred to the Bush/Cheney era as a time in which Republicans decided "it was standard practice not to pay for things." In just eight years, GOP policymakers not only eliminated the surplus -- the nation had been on track to eliminate the national debt altogether by 2010 -- but they'd also added $5 trillion to the debt in eight years.
The RNC wants to talk about the "unprecedented fiscal recklessness of the Obama administration"? Seriously?
But wait, Republicans argue, Obama has made things worse, so there's nothing wrong with pushing this message now.
That's not quite right, either. For one thing, tackling debt reduction in the wake of an economic crash is insane. For another, the deficit actually has gotten considerably smaller -- to the tune of about $200 billion -- since Obama took office.
While we're at it, let's also not forget that Obama offered Republicans a $4 trillion debt-reduction deal, but they turned it down.
But even putting all of that aside, the most important takeaway is that while the deficits have remained large under Obama, it's not Obama's policies that are responsible. Remember this chart?
There are plenty of other charts along these same lines.
When the Republican convention casts blame for the nation's fiscal challenges, they're generally condemning the wrong president.
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More Republican revisionist history at work. There is no debt reduction of deficit slashing imaginable that could occur without the death of the Bush tax cuts, that awful giveaway to rich Republican donors that has cost trillions of dollars over its disgusting lifetime. Washington is full of hypocrites that would shelter the rich to shift more and more of a burden onto the middle-class and working Americans. We are at the breaking point while mega-corporations and multi-billionaires are given tax cut after tax break, taxpayer-funded handouts that are nothing but welfare for the rich. - principled progressive
"Compassionate Conservatism" which originally had most folks scratching their heads trying to understand how Republicans could relinquish their "core beliefs" and actually give a damn about the 99%'ers, now have a crystal clear picture that this concept was actually targeted for the 1%'ers.
Oh what a steaming crock. These are now the Obama tax cuts. Why? Because Obama didn't want to raise taxes on the middle class. What does that mean? The middle class got a huge tax cut. For some reason you want to ignore that. In real terms today, if the Obama cuts are repealed for the rich you'll get about $36 billion. Repeal all the tax cuts and you'll get some $238 billion. Do the math.
PS the rich pay most of the income tax bill. They pay their share and part of yours. Find a rich person today and say thank you.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/08/11/AR2010081105864.html
For once, I agree with you Shooter. Obama did extend the tax cuts, and does own some of the blame for their added cost to the deficit. Who passed the laws that have caused a massive increase of red ink does matter, but Obama can't say that he has no part in the current state of the tax cuts. While I would like to see all of the tax cuts abolished, there is no political will on either side to come close to that.
It is pretty significant the hypocrisy that the GOP is touting the debt/deficit as a reason Obama is failing. The last time they had control, they spent like drunken sailors. Now they are pretending as if they were penny pinching misers the whole time, but the facts don't support that. Neither party has been very fiscally prudent in the last decade, but at least Obama has been attempting to pay for things during his term - something his GOP predecessor didn't deem necessary.
Bolbis, the middle class tax cuts that Shooter's referring to are fully paid for.
But do you remember why Pres. Obama agreed to extend the unfunded high-end tax cuts for an additional two years? Senate and House Republicans sent a letter threatening to shut down the business of Congress - to let absolutely no legislation go forward - unless the tax cuts were extended. They also threatened to cut people off from unemployment insurance, veterans benefits, Social Security checks, etc. at Christmastime, and to raise everyone's taxes in the New Year, unless they got their way with extending the unfunded Bush tax cuts. So, we would have had a preview of the "fiscal cliff" then, courtesy of Republicans.
Oh those of short memory. I do recall that Obama was held hostage by Republicans who wouldn't extend unemployment benefits unless he continued the Bush Tax cuts. His whole program has been fighting against people who want him to fail
http://www.csmonitor.com/Business/Latest-News-Wires/2010/1206/Unemployment-benefits-extended-in-tax-cut-deal
And I can agree that the Republicans were profligate as well. As for the current deficits argument, I think it can legitimately be summarized as... whatever Obama was left with, he hasn't made it better.
Shooter!! i understand it's all politics and no policy for you.I guess you see the world as black and white or good guys vs bad guys.
They are still called Bush Tax cuts because, the law that was signed by President Bsuh in 2001 and 2003 is still the law of the land.It hasn't been repealed--Obama and congress are just extending it.
I'll leave that to you.It's your business,just note that those numbers make no sense if you don't state the cut off and a period(like say over a decade?).
I also hope you know what the difference is between RICH vs WEALTHY.
I hope you understand that we have "Progressive" tax code in this country?
Please bear this mind, Everybody pays tax!!!
sick,
from your cite.... "The debate over extending the Bush era tax cuts has been the dominant political issue in Washington during the final weeks of the current session of Congress in which Democrats have big majorities in both chambers."
So your point is that Democrats wanted Obama to fail? And no, tax matters aren't filibustered.
June, how exactly were the middle class tax cuts paid for?
khayyam,
Half the country pays no income tax. That isn't progressive. Meanwhile, the other half covers the tab for the entire federal system outside of SS and Medicare. That isn't fair.
Way too much stupidity going on in this thread. WAY too much. It would be such a monumental task to try to remedy that. So there's only one thing to do: demand that those who blame it on Obama list the Obama policies that are responsible for the continuing deficits and debt that the Republicans, their ideas and policies are responsible for.
And here's the answer: there are none. And so the deficits and debt are Republican. End of discussion.
And why are the Bush tax cuts still there. Because the shhitpile of an economy that W, his complicit Republican Congresses and the 30+ years of failed conservative ideas and policies they wake up with as their worldview gave to the world in the form of a Great Recession left a demand deficit that would have been exacerbated by tax increases at the time. And the Bush tax cuts for the rich are still there because Republicans held unemployment insurance hostage in Dec. 2010.
As for not fair, we've had CONSCIOUS policy in this country that has redistributed wealth and income from lower and middle income/wealth to upper income/wealth for 30+ years. It is now as bad or worse than before the Great Depression. CONSCIOUS policy. There's your unfairness. And the inequality has lead to political inequality and income class immobility. There's your unfairness.
And complete dicks like Mr. Mitty (aka Airball, aka shooter) are too stupid to understand it because they either can't, or they don't want to.
In gop shooters world , only the rich pay to keep america up and running , so I guess it was all rich people fighting and dying in iraq and afgan the last 20 years
Shooter and Bolbis,
what you guys are overlooking is that Obama had two bad choices, given that the national debt was pushing $11 trillion, deficits were at $1.3 trillion, employment was falling at around 800,000 per month, and GDP had declined at a nearly 9% annualized rate the previous quarter on his inauguration day. He could choose to immediately implement austerity, which rolling back the Bush tax cuts would have been a part of, or he could go for temporary stimulus and look at deficit and debt reduction as a longer term effort. He wisely went with the latter approach, and we should all be glad of it. Britain took the austerity route and they went into double dip recession and unemployment is still climbing.
If you want to comment intelligently on these things you need to understand what is short term policy and what is long term policy. Sure you could say Obama should have repealed the tax cuts, but he wasn't entirely free to do that on his own, especially after the voter confusion over health care that led to the 2010 midterm debacle. What is more true is that Republicans should have paid for the tax cuts by finding offsetting spending cuts, and they should have paid for the wars with taxes. Obama wants to repeal the Bush tax cuts and return to Clinton era taxation. This would be good for our national deficit and debt, but it would be bad for the gradual recovery. Until the economy returns to full capacity output, deficit spending is actually good for the economy. A counter-cyclical approach is what we need, which means that deficit cutting needs to come after the unemployment rate has returned to normal levels.
jeff, you're acting as if bolbis and Mr. Mitty are amenable or moved by reason. They are not. Everybody understand the W tax cuts by now:
- because of the Great Recession caused by Republican ideas and policies, it would have been counterproductive to restore them during the demand slump (except for the high-end tax cuts)
- because Republicans held unemployment insurance hostage to the high-end tax cuts, these tax cut were not rescinded.
It's not really worth your time to try to have a discussion with these tools. Just show why they're wrong and move on.
Too many people commenting here aren't seeing the forest for the trees.
The Republicans' strategy for the last three decades has been to run up the deficit. They tend to do things, like tax cuts and wars, that are hard to correct quickly. Succeeding administrations (usually Democrats) are stuck with these things and have to work their way out slowly. That just further increases the deficit and debt.
Republicans know that by driving up the debt, it will be tougher for Democrats to enact new social programs that rely on federal funding. Unfortunately for us (well, maybe not for Republicans) right now, that includes infrastructure spening and other short-term expenditures that would reduce unemployment and improve the economy.
mpguy, It sounds like you're exonerating Bush and Reagan, while praising Clinton's Congress.
jeff, I think everyone is familiar with the Keysianism the left prescribes, but in my view it's a misdiagnosis. We're in a debt driven recession, with a side order of anti-business animus. Check out the presentation link and see why we're much like Japan and their own real estate bubble burst aftermath.
http://www.businessinsider.com/richard-koo-recession-2010-4?op=1
shooter . . . . I can't begin to imagine what strange reading of my comments led you to that weird conclusion, other than sheer blind partisanship that disregards anything that looks like a fact.
Quite the opposite it true. Let me put it more simply for you.
Republicans run up the debt, wasting as much money as possible. Democrats are left to clean up the mess. Because they have to deal with the Republican mess, they can't enact new programs that move the society forward. Usually, about the time the Dems have things back under control, we put Republicans back in office to repeat the cycle.
Both Reagan and GW Bush were masters of this strategy. Clinton had to clean up his mess. Obama has to deal with Bush's.
When someone makes a big mess, it takes a long time to clean it up.
Oops, sorry mpguy, I actually replied to kj by mistake. In regards to your point, it doesn't seem there is any limits to Govt debt. If Republicans are trying to scare the left with more debt that isn't working. If Republicans are trying to scare the citizenry that isn't working either.
After years of both sides declaring debt doesn't matter, it doesn't matter. For the time being.
It should be flashing, thank you gw in between rolls......as a reminder of who drove up the debt and left us holding the bag. This will give you an idea, that the democrats got in their blows at the convention.
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2012/08/28/1124719/-Republicans-really-should-have-bought-up-that-billboard-space
Hilarious:
Also I might like to add that the tax rate is supposed to fluctuate with the GDP. When we have a surplus like we did in 2000 then taxes should have been and were lowered, but now we have a deficit and the ones who benefit the most from the present tax cuts don't want to give them up. Unfortunately we cannot balance the budget with just cuts alone. This is why the republicans want to incite resentment to get people angry and insist upon just cuts to 'balance the budget' , but what people like 'shooter' don't understand is that if taxes remain the same he will not benefit. That's what makes him so inept for arguing for these tax cuts.
If anything he would definitely benefit from a more social agenda. But I am sure he cannot make that connection. Because he will vote against his own self proclaimed best interests if he votes the Vulture/Voucher ticket, and will probably lose his business. The only people Flip Robme will work for are the ones who are like himself with money in the Caymans or Switzerland.
And yet we have ol' Jeb Bush telling us that Obama should stop blaming his brother . I'm for that , blame the whole Republican establishment not just shrub.
While we're at it can we have a clock that will show how much the debt goes up if Ryan's plan is implemented?
bush represents the whole repub party, as they loved and agreed with everything he did.
repubs say they can't be led. well, they have proven they CAN BE LED by the biggest deficit builder, the biggest war monger, the biggest liar in the history of the USA, w. bush (and cheeeeeney).
they couldn't get their noses far enough up his ass.
@sick n effen tired
History will blame his brother. Its not just us. I mean the republicans can control the conversation by arguing that we stop talking about bush, but 100 years from now future generations will know that bush was the worst president ever in recorded history.
"TheActivist" delivers a measured, adult analysis of our current fiscal dilemma.
Too bad the Great American Sheeple are not paying attention:
Charts, schmartz, My Eyes Glaze Over!
Everybody knows that everything bad is Obama's fault- including the drought, the hurricane, and the NFL referees strike!
We need to get back to Happy Days are Here Again, that Shining City on a Hill, where God Fearing Christians roll up their sleeves and grab their boot straps, shouting, "The Best is Yet to Come!"
(You will hear that message- ad nauseam- over the next 3 days.)
Regarding the chart, as per my cite above revoking all the Obama cuts will get you $238 billion, still leaving almost a trillion dollar deficit. It also doesn't reflect Obama's expansion of the war in Afghanistan. the bottom line here is that on Obama's watch he's accumulated more debt in one term than Bush did in two.
You do realize that debt is like a snowball, correct? The more you have, the quicker it multiplies and grows. You do realize that we are in a recession where REVENUES are at an all time low in the modern era, correct? That is the only problem with the GOP addressing our debt/deficit problem, is that they pretend as if we haven't lost a ton of revenue due to people losing their jobs. In a recession, debt is supposed to go up - the problem is that the 8 years prior to the recession the debt was going up at an alarming rate. You combine those two factors together, and you get a perfect storm against the President - debt is too high to create stimulus that would help the recession, and due to no stimulus pumped into the economy, everything is stagnant.
Sorry Bolbis, we'll have to part company on this one. Yes revenues are down, and yes the economy is stagnant. But what does that mean exactly?
Most people use the word "economy" as an abstract without understanding how it works. the short version is that the economy is business. What you're really saying is that business is stagnant. When people say they want stimulus to increase demand, what they really are asking for is increasing business activity.
But... these days business is a dirty word. People don't like "business", they like the idea of "profit" even less. Somehow business and profit got separated from the idea of "economy" and every anti-business measure the administration promulgates actually damages the economy.
The left is shooting itself in the foot.
How does one get as dumb as Mr. Mitty. It's really kind of remarkable to watch the blindered wingnut (of any form) in real time. The wingnut just can't take in too much of the world outside the restricted field of vision. Not worth spending any more minutes of my morning on.
So according to the shooter gop's calculations , obama has signed $5 trillion in legislation passed , which is complete bull @!$%# of course
C'mon Steve (ariticle writer) It's been over 3 years. How long are you going to blame Bush\Cheney? Though the President inherited a soup sandwhich, he also promised to recduce the deifict by half in 3 years and hasn't even come close.
When did he promise to cut the deficit by half. Was it after 2008 when the deficit was 540 billion? Or after 2009 when it was a lot higher? In either case, 200B is less than half.
Here's an "inconvenient FACT":
Over the last 4 years the Republicans in congress have done everything in their power to prevent the president from fulfilling ANY of his campaign promises.
POTUS making that claim in this video. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jyrlMr0Bedo
I'm sure you meant trillion. Bush's last day in office 10.6 trillion. Currenty 15.6 trillion. The POTUS has already bested Bush in only 3 years. Beyond that, you can't grow something 4.9 trillion and say oh " we saved\cut out 200 trillion", and it grow 4.9 trillion. What kind of math is that.
We all can agree that the deficit is out of control. Tax increases will kill the small business owner. Stop spending and ASSIST with creating jobs. This bottle neck will continue to hurt us all.
Factspeople2016 - In the video you provide he says he will cut the "deficit we inherited". That would mean the 2008 deficit, which was 540B. There is a difference between deficit and the National Debt.
Dan, the left usually claims the first trillion dollar deficit was Bush's. The fiscal year for Govt isn't the same as a calender year.
Sorry 2016. You haven't stated just what Obama policies are responsible. Until you do that, you're ignoring the reality that the deficits and debt are the result of Republican failed ideas, policies, irresponsible fiscal stewardship, and stupidity. It's been their habit since the irresponsible and idiotic Reagan Presidency.
Dan- OK, but you still have to see the logic. I saved $200 trillion and I only spent 700 trillion ( 200 plus 500). BTW- Where did he save $200 trillion?
Digusted- I didn't mention any policies. I did mention that the POTUS should do what he said he was going to do, stop giveing handouts without metrics, and stop raising taxes. Raising taxes will slow growth as very evident in Atlanta. We can't keep looking back and blaming everyone for the the national defcit. Take ownership and move forward.
Dude, you are just ignorant (and stupid).
1) You MUST state the Obama policies that have caused the mess you claim Obama is responsible for. You can not. Because they don't exist.
2) Obama has NOT raised taxes. Nothing shows your complete ignorance more than that.
3) Giving handouts without metrics? You're simply sickening. Did Obama make some reduction in the qualifications for receiving some sort of assistance? Give us all you ol' Ignorant One.
You're ignorance is simply stratospheric. And nauseating. Do yourself and your country a favor. Turn off the Fox.
I'm always amused when folks talk about debt and deficit, claim they know what's what, and then in the process demonstrate that clearly don't understand the difference between the two. Such is the case above with Factspeople2016.
And the other thing - Congress is the branch of government that approves and appropriates spending and collects revenues (taxes) - not the POTUS. So the Debt clock at the GOP Convention is really more of a reflection on the Congress they currently control. Sure, people associate it with the POTUS because he's the leader, but he really has very little control over what is spent. And to be fair, even though the Bush Admin got us into two wars, it was Congress who approved them and then spent us into oblivion.
I'm always amused when folks talk about debt and deficit, claim they know what's what, and then in the process demonstrate that clearly don't understand the difference between the two
KJ - This years deficit is part of next years debt. They are different in a way but if you overspend in the current year (deficit) it obviously adds to your ongoing debt.
So the Debt clock at the GOP Convention is really more of a reflection on the Congress they currently control
Last I looked the House of Representatives have a Republican majority and the Senate has a Democratic majority. Yeah I guess you could say with the filibuster the Senate may be controlled by the Republicans but they do not control Congress per se. And also remember that the Democrats controlled both houses the first two years of Obama's term and that's when they passed the $700 Billon stimulus and the ACA.
Skip - I'm glad to see that someone else out here gets that.
I don't disagree with your points about Congress either. I would point out that use of the filibuster has skyrocketed since Obama took office. That tells me a lot about GOP tactics. And I think the stimulus was a good thing. Did it bring about full recovery? No, but I don't think that was ever the plan or expectation. I believe it did succeed in keeping us from going into a deeper recession or depression. And I consider the ACA a good thing.
That sounds more like an opinion that a fact, Factspeople2016. Forbes, on the other hand, lists Atlanta as the 10th fastest growing metro area in the country this year. Damn taxes...
Jesus Christ, if I hear one more person with state the false line that BO had majorities for 2yrs crap! It would appear that way only on paper. The reality was ALOT different. Skip, you have to do your homework before spouting off like that. Here's your homework assignment. 1) Review both the 2009 and 2010 Congressional calendars, paying attention of when congress was in session, vs. recess. 2) Review Ted Kennedy's 2009 attendence and/or voting record. Better yet, just read what was going on in his life in 2009. 3) Brush up on the Minnesota congressional challenge and when that was resolved. 4) Brush up on what happened to Kennedy's seat after he died 8/25/09. Wikepedia will do. If you come away from that with the impression that Dem's controlled congress for 2yrs, then there's a reading problem.
718BKNC,
So you are saying the Republicans passed the ACA and the stimulus? Your arguments make it seem that way. Yes, maybe on paper they had the majority and maybe in reality they did not. But the fact of the matter is that those two big bills passed and it was because of Democrats pushing it, not Republicans. If you come away with the impression that these were pushed and passed by the Republicans, then there's a perception problem.
Ok, there is definitely a reading problem. Skip, I don't know you from a can of paint, but you're reply seems to be typical of Republicans or anyone with an opposing view of Obama and Dems. Nowhere did I argue, implicitly or explicitly that Republicans passed ACA and ARRA because OF COURSE we couldn't count on them to do such a responsible thing. There's no perception problem and I don't gather you bothered to complete the assignments I suggested for if you had, you're response would be, yup, you're right, DEMS DIDN't have control for 2yrs, as you stated. I replied to your false claim with an idea of having you check out the facts and true to form, your allergies flared up. The whole premise of this thread is to show how the GOP pretends to care about debts and deficits and explicitly enacts legislation geared to raise both (with no shame, I might add) then when the country polls that we're headed in the wrong direction, they elect a Dem POTUS to clean up the mess. The real facts of the matter are that both ACA and ARRA set the stage for short term growth and long term health care cost bending. Implicitly in argument within your reply is the Republicans would have done something close to the opposite, if not nothing at all on both counts. Of course you will have serious trouble, perhaps even find it impossible to point to any successful attempt to by a modern day government to respond to recession as harsh as this one. Don't bother trying because the closest thing to it is the Great Depression and after years of doing nothing, finally government stimulus - read: Keynesian economics - lifted the country out of the mess Republicans created. I could go on, but my son has football practice, but good luck arguing otherwise on anything I've actually written.
Whoever thinks Democrats had filibuster-proof majorities is an ignoramus. Democrats had 60 Senate votes for seven weeks. Here's the timeline:
President Obama DID NOT control Congress for Two Years! | The Pragmatic Pundit
Read it and weep wingnuts.
@Factspeople
Here's a fact for you. The current debt is due to spending during the bush years its a little something called 'interest'. Also I might like to add that Obama has not raised any taxes since he has been in office, those pesky republicans in congress won't let him. Those pesky republicans have also rejected all his budgets they just want to pass that 'path to poverty' thing that Ryan is so very proud of. Unfortunately Ryan's budget does not balance anything for 28 years by cutting out Grandma and Grandpa literately ripping their pacemakers out of their chests.
I also might add that just 2 years after Clinton raised taxes that pesky deficit was gone and we had a surplus, of which was urinated away by your boy bush.
Now you vote for Romney and we go back to that. The economy is no longer 'boyant'. We will all be done for even the folks who think they are rich.
Ethelouise - I am not contradicting you, but the deficit did not go away under Clinton. We just started to have a surplus in those years, but hardly enough to pay down the deficit. Had that trend continued under Bush, we would have been paying down the debt, Which was greatly increased before Clinton under Reagan and GHW Bush. If you research it, you will find that the Republicans are responsible for about 10 Trillion of the 15 trillion, not counting the current interest we are paying.
Somewhere between 44% to upwards of 48% of American citizens of legal voting age, but fortunately not a majority, care about the Republican Party's conflicted 2012 platform. Their concern is preserving the conservative status quo's "establishment paradise for the ruling class, with ease and plenty far removed from the day to day lives of ordinary citizens."
The greater societal concern is this: "How real is the possibility that the American system of capitalism may experience a similar fate to the now extinct communist economic system under the former Soviet Union?"
Read more at
http://lifeamongtheordinary.blogspot.com/2012/08/the-establishment-paradise-part-three.html
Aren't you concerned that if we keep going this route where the Dems want us to depend on the GOVT for everything, that the country will continue to decline. We don't want to become like the th former Soviet Union. To many handouts with no consequences, control, or accountablility. To elaborate; help the people who need help but create programs that track thier progress or lack of.
I'm barely considered the middle class and no one has giving me anything for free. What happend to pride and self worth??
Sorry, 2016. Your whole argument blows up when you out yourself as believing that Democrats want "us to depend on the GOVT for everything." You start off with false premises in your failed worldview and end up with false conclusions. This is what happens to the Fox-educated.
Your kidding right? How is that not true? The Dems love to like the hero and pander to minorities.Joe Biden should be embarrsed for that recent comment! How about eveyrone pull thier own weight and stop living off the system. Of course, help those who can't help them selves.
Sorry, but your insistence on your premises being correct just further exposes your wrongness.
I'm sure most would be glad to, if people like Mitt Romney would stop sending jobs overseas for the sake of corporate profit. They create the system that results in dependency.
Better to like our hero, that to have to back a despised bungler, like willard. Fact, you sound like a republican accusing Democrats of taking hand outs. I only see republicans taking hand out then pretending like they have made investments. Laughable. Love the double standard you folks seem to have. Whine on.
the debt is because of:
1. two unpaid for wars
2. the Bush tax cuts
3. Medicare part d
ALL OF WHICH THE GOP VOTED FOR.
All of which Democrats also voted for. Both houses were Democrat after Jumpin Jim Jeffords switched parties.
Wrong again:
- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jobs_and_Growth_Tax_Relief_Reconciliation_Act_of_2003#Legislative_History
- http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2010/mar/04/alan-grayson/bush-tax-cuts-were-passed-reconciliations-50-votes/
Partially wrong RIKYRAH - The Bush tax cuts helped everyone in all income brackets. Of course it helped the wealthy more as they earned more. It's called a progressive tax system. The more you make the more you pay in taxes.
The W tax cuts and supply-side era was a disaster and can be objectively demonstrated via comparison to non-supply-side eras using the measures supply-side econ professes to be good for:
Growth rates of:
- GDP
- deficits and debt
- annual median incomes
- annual real business investment
- hourly wages
- worker productivity
- employment
Supply-side economics is a fraud.
You want to challenge me on this, 2016. Go ahead. Because you are going to lose.
Factspeopl2016 - Then why does Mitt pay a lower rate than most of us in the middle class? I know the mechanics of it - I just want you to explain the fairness of that, since you're arguing in favor of the progressive tax system.
Dear Disgusted,
My money's on you.
There is much confusion between the debt and the deficit. And there is much confusion about the relationship between the Treasury and Social Security Trust Fund.
The doubling of the Social Security tax rate in 1985, when Reagan was president, created a surplus in the Social Security Fund, which was used by Reagan to claim that deficits were being reduced by lowering the tax rates paid by rich Republicans. What happened was a shift in the tax burden from rich to working class Americans. By reducing income taxes on the rich and doubling the Social Security tax on working middle class Americans, funding of the government was shifted away from the rich to the middle class. This occurred because the surplus revenue received by Social Security was used to fund government expenditures. The surplus also reduced the deficit figure because the deficit is reported on the unified budget, which includes Treasury and Social Security.
The confusion of Federal Income Taxes and Payroll taxes has been a major element in the lies Republicans tell to the American People. The Treasury collects income taxes and borrows money to cover government expenditures. The Payroll tax funds Social Security payments to beneficiaries. From 1985 to 2008, the Social Security Trust Fund ran annual surpluses. The surpluses were lent to Treasury. Bush, in 2000, used the confusion to argue for tax cuts for the rich claiming that there was a surplus that he was returning to the people. This was a bold-faced lie. The surplus came from the Social Security Trust Fund, not the Treasury. By giving a tax cut to the rich, he has made it impossible for the Federal Government to honor its obligations to senior citizens. It is also important to understand why the Bush tax cuts were set to expire in 2010: the deficit was projected to explode. The reason is the surplus received by the Social Security Trust Fund. The surplus was shrinking as the baby boom generation reached retirement. Just the reduction in the surplus increases the deficit.
If you look the historical figures of the debt and the deficit, you will see that the debt always grows more than the amount of the deficit. This is because the debt reflects the accumulated borrowing by the Treasury to fund government expenditures and the deficit reduces the amount of the debt accumulation by the amount of the Social Security surplus.
We know have a situation where the Social Security Trust Fund no longer receives more than it pays out. This means that every year the Fund must get back the money lent to Treasury. So now the Social Security deficit adds to the annual deficit. How does the Treasury pay back what is owed to the Social Security Trust Fund? It borrows the money.
This is pretty good except for one item. It was LBJ that started lumping in SS with general revenues. it was the only way he could hide the "Great Society" and Vietnam war expenses.
True. But it does not change anything now. What is easily observable is one fact: Republicans are good at using the policy biases of liberals against them.
So Rachel, you mentioned some people that are going to be at the convention this week. I didn't hear anything about the 99%ers, are they at this convention? Don't you think they should be there? Here is a thought… I think all the 99%ers around the world should unite and be one entity to deal with all this corruption that has been going for thousands of years. We need to have accountability in every Gov. and also Wall Street. This should be done by having people that have integrity, compassion, and trustworthiness that will be voted in by the 99ers, that person should be allowed to stand in on all the most important decisions on wall street to make sure that this corruption is somewhat eliminated. Every 99%er can then breathe a sigh of relief knowing that they can count on people that is truly for the people. Heck maybe we can even be represented by a flag that will be flown all over the world standing for Compassion, Humble, Accountability, Integrity, Respect, Humanity, Equality, Loyalty. CHAIRHEL – we celebrate this on Earth Day!! What do you think?
We all have one thing in common... we are all human beings. We all deserve compassion. We all deserve respect. We all deserve the right to be here on earth.
Since the tax cuts in question were enacted in 2001 and 2003, they are and will forever be the Bush-era tax cuts. The right says over and over that Obama "keeps raising taxes" but the fact is that although he wanted to allow the Bush-era tax cuts to expire, he compromised and extended them. No one's taxes have gone up during Obama's term, and a whole lot of payroll taxes have gone down.
Further, it is the US House of Representatives that has the Constitutional authority and obligation to authorize spending, and has done so, but without a proper budget during Obama's term. A huge mess of continuing resolutions and temporary funding, all designed to keep the government operating (barely) but in such a way that the GOP does not have to accept responsibility for any budget compromise.
It is the Do-Nothing Congress, particularly the last two years, which is responsible for the weakness of our economic recovery. If the Democrats manage to take back the House and retain the Senate, things will be much better in this country. Regardless of who wins the Presidency.
That "clock" is not registering the debt. It is registering the number of times the Republicans say the word "welfare" during the convention.
I've said it before and I'll say it again. They have all the self-awareness of a pet rock.
It's hard to fathom how ignorant right wingers like Shooter and Facts2016 really are. It's either ignorance or just plain stupidity.
I mean, there are 3 decades worth of empirical evidence showing that trickle down, supply side economics has been a disaster for the middle class. Yet, they still cling to debunked right wing think tank economic theories.
Also, this has been bugging me a lot lately: I'd venture to say that Shooter considers himself a "Christian". I'd also venture to say that 90% of mainstream Christian denominations consider Mormonism as a cult. Yet, here we are, mainstream Christians marching in lockstep as their masters have instructed them to do and supporting, wait for it... a Mormon. Please explain this cognitive dissonance to me. I can think of no other reason other than pure hatred for Obama. They may say, well, he's a Muslim. Even of that were the case, so what? The right is supporting a Mormon which it doesn't even consider a true religion!
The mind reels....
Fundamentalism is an insanitization machine. Righties don't think about stuff in any reasionable or realistic way. They're fundamentally irrational, they don't know the difference, they never have, and they never will. A certain % of the population is permanently out to lunch. . .The answer as to why righties are so irrational is that righties are irrational. Irrationality doesn't respond to the words, "hey you, stop being so irrational." You can say that to irrational folks all day long, and they'll still be irrational and they won't know the difference....because they're irrational. Gobama!
When Obama took office the debt was 11.8 trillion. Now it is around 15.5 trillion. The debt has increased by about 3.7 trillion dollars but the Republicans say it has risen by 5 trillion because Republicans lie about everything all the time. The projected deficit for years to come was 1.4+trillion per year, which Obama has decreased. Reality proves that Republicans are shameless liars. .They can't help it, they're pathological.
The bigger Republican lie is that Obama is responsible for the deficits and debt. He is not. Nobody can name a single Obama program/policy outside the stimulus (which worked) that is responsible for the Republican deficits and debt.
And it is Republicans who are reneging on their own idea of defense cuts exposing further their hypocrisy on deficits and debt.
Reagan and the Bushes primarily gave us the debt, which right wingers deny because right wingers are simply irrational. The right doesn't care about the truth. They really don't. They think reality is whatever they choose to believe, which is also a pretty good definition of insanity. .Gobama!
At this point I think we have to stop looking back and pointing fingers. For WHATEVER reason, we have a huge debt....now what are we going to do about it?
Skip - that's an excellent question. I know this isn't a popular opinion, but frankly I think we should go back to the Clinton-era tax rates - for everyone. Combine that with serious but reasonable spending cuts. I know, 'serious' and 'reasonable' are in the eyes of the beholder, and that's just another argument waiting to happen. But when I think about the future generations everyone claims to be concerned about, I think this is the most responsible approach that really benefits them the most. We all survived the Clinton tax rates before; we can do it again. At least for long enough to create budget surpluses and get rid of most of the debt.
No, it's not really that great of a question. The biggest problem the country has is political stupidity of the right and ignorance of the public. Then it's the out-of-control private health care system combined with a depressed economy that has a mid to long term debt problem. Debt is the least of the problems we face right now for which positive action can be taken. There's not much that can be done in the short term about the political and ignorance situations. And the health care system will be slow to change to what it must so that leaves us with getting the depressed economy moving as something that can be accomplished. And that simply has to be put on the hands of the government else we will have wasted a decade or more of millions of lives shattered because of yet more stupid conservative ideas.
So there needs to be more government stimulus and tax rates can rise on those that do not consume the tax cuts -- the upper income classes. Then when the economy is moving to trend the middle class tax cuts will need to be rescinded.
DisgustedWithItAlll - Please explain what obama is doing to right the ship? I am tired of the they did this or did not do this. The issue is what is the current president doing to resolve what some might state as bad stewardship by this predecessors both Republicans and Democrats.
Right wingers do not tend to make decisions or assessments based on factual, truthful information. They are primarily irrational. That's reality. They're wacky, and they don't know how to unwackify themselves. They never have, and they never will.
Re: “the Obama tax cuts,” this is a link to the President’s Budget that lays out exactly how the tax cuts for the middle class are fully paid for, and much more. The section starts on pdf page# 37 “Tax Reform” – the specifics start on pdf page #39:
http://www.whitehouse.gov/sites/default/files/omb/budget/fy2013/assets/cutting.pdf
I have looked at numerous CBPP articles about the budget deficit over the last two years. The articles all come up with the same type of charts and conclusions indicating the Bush era tax cuts, the Bush era wars, and the GOP's Medicare Prescription Drug bill all have added to our long term deficits and debt. Its not rocket science to understand that when you have $4 trillion long term for the two wars, several trillion dollars more for the Bush tax cuts, and have the costs of the bailouts for GOP deregulation of the 1932 Glass-Steagall Act you end up with huge trillion dollar budget deficits. The 2008 recession costs were mostly in the form of loan guarantees by the Federal Reserve that have mostly been either paid back by the banks as the loans got paid down. President Obama has held federal spending down to the lowest growth levels since the Eisenhower era.
Here is what must be done to restore our economy to fiscal solvency:
1. We must end the Bush tax cuts for eventually for all Americans. No ever ever figured out how we will pay for these tax cuts and we can not afford to make them permanent like the Romney/Ryan kamikaze budget wants to do.
2. We need to raise taxes on the rich back to the levels of the 1970's. Capital gains rates need to get raised to at least 40%. The top income tax levels should be raised to at least the Clinton era of 39% but we may need to look at a surcharge of up towards 50% to get the country back in shape fiscally.
3. We need to raise the Social Security/Medicare income cap from about $110,000 today to at least $250,000 worth of income. Senator Sanders has this proposal and it is a worthwhile one because Social Security and Medicare a bedrock programs for our Social Safety net.
4. We must reduce defense spending to pre-911 levels or even less. We need to have another BRAC round of base closures and realignment along with a major reduction of overseas military bases. Major weapons systems like the F-35 Joint Strike fighter have become boondoggle programs where cost overruns and engineering failures are rampant. Why not eliminate the F-35 program and build swarms of disposable robotic drone planes instead? What are the future of tanks, manned fighter planes and huge Nimitz class nuclear carriers in the age of drone planes, precision guided missiles, and more passive missile system that can shoot a carrier or ship from a thousand miles away with a cruise missile? Not all of these weapons programs have to necessarily be scrapped but we need to look at the asymmetrical threat and figure out new ways to counteract the missiles and precision weapons that are ubiquitous in the 21st century.
5. We will need to come up with new ways of doing business such as public-private corporations for funding bullet trains, mass transit systems, commuter rail, and massive amounts of green energy programs. We subsidize a gallon of fuel to the price of $11 to $15 per gallon once the health, environmental, and military costs are all added up. We have spent $7.3 trillion for aircraft carrier task force groups to safeguard our oil supplies in the unstable and volatile Persian Gulf from 1976-2007. The non-OECD countries (mostly Asian) surpassed the OECD countries (U.S.,Europe) for the first time this spring of 2012. Peak world oil production was probably reached back in 2006-2009. We have rising Asian oil consumption with China making over 100 million more cars in the next five to seven years. The Indians are following the same vehicle trends as China. Both China and India will quadruple their fossil fuel consumption by 2030. So we must leave oil before oil leaves us here in America. We must expect permanent $150 plus per barrel of oil price levels once the world gets out of this global recession which it will. The new normal in America will be $4 or $5 per gallon fuel on a permanent basis. Green energy, mass transit, and bullet trains are the best way forward to keep hemorrhaging money overseas for oil that is totally unsustainable given Asian countries incessant oil demand increases and decreasing supplies of oil.
The bottom line is that the great American middle class will live more like the British middle class in the United Kingdom or in other western European countries. We will live in smaller homes, row houses, and townhouses or apartments. We will drive 40 MPG or 50 MPG turbo-diesel cars, and we will have stronger demand for mass transit services from buses, Amtrak, to bullet trains. We simply will not have the money in the economy to live the way we have in the post WW II suburban sprawl era. So this type of energy consuming, water consuming, cash guzzling, suburban sprawl lifestyle will contract into a simpler,more affordable, and more centrally located lifestyles where city centers are middle class again. Densely populated British row houses with small yards, a single family 50 MPG 1.0 liter engine car, and a home near the bus route will become the American way when fuel is $10 per gallon. We are one major Middle Eastern war away from this happening. Will Israel keep its Air Force jets in their hangars on their bases or will they take of for a bombing run over Iran? The law of unintended consequences combined with the law of probabilities in an interdependent global economy have caused stranger scenarios to happen in world history.
XEP: How you today Jerry the butt wipe? We all know that your GOP solutions for the economy are non-existent. We also know you hate Americans that live in the U.S. Don't forget either that George Bush ran up the national deb with two wars, huge tax cuts for the wealty and Medicare Prescription Drug part D. All of these things were unpaid for and doubled the national debt in eight years and left President Obama with trillion dollar deficits for all of his first term. On top of this President Obama had the worst economy since the Great Depression with almost 9 million jobs being lost.
So when you add all this up plus the three million jobs that the GOP House has failed to pass and GOP in the Senate have filibustered, it looks like you guys are headed for a long election night. The approval rating of the Congress is at 10%. You clowns in the House could not even pass the Farm Bill that has been worked on for over two years. Only the idiots will be voting for Romney/Ryan who plan on making the Bush tax cuts permanent while destroying Medicare and increasing military spending leaving trillion dollar deficits are far as the eye can see.
Indeed! I responded to your posts on the Ryan forcible rape page..
Shooter 242? I don't like your name on this thread. I don't think you are talking about basketball. You need to be seriously investigated.
Don't worry, Sal - Shooter never hits anything he's aiming at.
He's like Otis on the Andy Griffith Show - not much going for him but he never does any real harm, so we let him have a key to the blog and he lets himself out when he sobers up.
Hey, what do you mean deficit reduction during an economic crisis is a bad idea? We tried that over here in the UK and it worked just fi- oh wait, back in recession after a short lived recovery as a result of government cutbacks? Never mind then, carry on
Sorry for the dumba$$ conservative ideas we exported to the rest of the world. You guys shouldn't have elected the moron Cameron that took our dumba$$ery so seriously. Then again, it could be worse. You have have our Republicans to put up with.
David - Also just watch "The Iron Lady" which took place in the 1980"s and the last recession. Government cutbacks didn't work back then either. For individuals or families, cutting back is the right thing or necessary thing to do, but for economies of a country, it is the wrong thing to do. If business is to survive, then money must be put into circulation, otherwise the recession turns into a depression, and does not improve.
Reagan and those that followed knew this but the current crop of Republicans are bound and determined to undermine the financial strength of this country.
but they'd also added $5 trillion to the debt in eight years.
Hum, only took Oblunder 3 years to put over $5 trillion on the books!!
Hmm I wonder how gw managed to do that?
Then the "dead" congress caused it to get even worse. Thanks for reminding us of who is pulling the strings republicans. Now take responsibility for your own actions.
Ho, did you get sent to detention?
Out to pasture? Or did you Moooove?
Still waiting for a wingnut to tell us what Obama policies are responsible for the deficits and debt. And I'll waiting a long time because no wingnut can give us those policies. There's a good reason for that: there are no Obama policies that are responsible for the deficits and debt. The deficits are caused by a revenue shortage due in large part to entrenched Bush tax cuts, wars paid for on the credit card, a stagnant economy caused by Republican obstruction, and necessary safety net assistance resulting from the Great Recession caused by 30+ years of failed conservative economic ideas and policies.
Or, give it a shot, Mr. cow. Fill us all in on those budget-busting Obama policies. I dare you. Here's what going to heppen: you will FAIL.
There is no way these sons of bitches are getting my vote.
The way they've disrespected Ron Paul by not even announcing his delegates in the roll call is a childish and inexcusable act.
I don't think I've ever been more disappointed.
Barnum and Bailey's clowns fear for their jobs because of invasion of clown convention!
We all can have a good laugh after tonight and tomorrow the polls will show Obama with a bigger lead! I hope I don't die laughing when the nominee make another one of his dodge and pointless speeches that pander to the base again! He may win an Oscar for comedy!
While I don't like the debt at all, I would much rather have Bush's increase of 5 Trillion in eight years than Obama's 6 Trillion in four years.
That's really funny because part of Obama's debt in that four years includes the war that Bush didn't put on the books.
hey dawn, we are all split up tonight again, most are on the convention post, that's where I am. see you there.
Once again, dumba$$ wingnuts: tell everybody what Obama policies are responsible for those deficits. Here's your problem: you can't because they don't exist.
Republicans are just stupid. They have proven it.