Bill Olmsted, Janesville Gazette
The list of falsehoods Paul Ryan told at the Republican National Convention last night isn't short, but there's one, in particular, that seems to be generating the most attention.
"My home state voted for President Obama. When he talked about change, many people liked the sound of it, especially in Janesville, where we were about to lose a major factory.
"A lot of guys I went to high school with worked at that GM plant. Right there at that plant, candidate Obama said: 'I believe that if our government is there to support you ... this plant will be here for another hundred years.' That's what he said in 2008.
"Well, as it turned out, that plant didn't last another year. It is locked up and empty to this day. And that's how it is in so many towns today, where the recovery that was promised is nowhere in sight."
For regular readers, the anecdote may have sounded familiar -- Ryan has incorporated the anecdote into his speeches before, I took it apart two weeks ago.
To their credit, plenty of campaign reporters immediately recognized one of the major flaws in Ryan's attack -- the GM plant in Janesville was shut down before Obama took office. Take a look at that photo included above, and then notice the date on the banner. GM's press release announcing the closing of the plant was issued in June 2008. One of the local papers ran this headline in December 2008, the month before Obama's inauguration: "Hugs, tears as GM workers leave Janesville plant for last time."
Republicans are going to great lengths to argue that Ryan didn't actually mislead the country. They're wrong; Ryan's argument was obviously and deliberately deceptive. The truth matters, and Ryan's version of reality isn't it.
But the closer one looks at Ryan's attack, the more bizarre it appears.
At the surface, there's just no reason to suggest Obama is responsible for a plant closing initiated under Bush. But even beyond the surface-level lie, the ideological disconnect is almost as striking.
President Obama, as you may have heard, rescued the American auto industry in 2009, over Republican objections. In the process, Obama not only saved GM, he rescued plants, workers, and communities.
Ryan, unwilling to respect Americans enough to talk to us like adults, is trying to make a child-like appeal: the plant is closed, Obama is president, ergo blame Obama for the plant closing.
But that's ridiculous. If it weren't for the president's policy, the Janesville plant wouldn't have been the only one closed. Indeed, Ryan's running mate would have allowed all the GM plants to close as part of his "Let Detroit Go Bankrupt" policy.
Does Ryan seriously want us to believe Obama's policy wasn't big enough? He wanted an even more ambitious government response? Is the new Republican argument, "Sure, Obama rescued the industry, but he only saved most of the GM plants, not all of them"?
Please.
Postscript: Given Romney's work at Bain Capital, Ryan probably ought to shy away from the whole subject of plant closings.
Update: Greg Sargent talked to a Ryan supporter in Janesville who offered a helpful perspective and isn't willing to blame Obama for the fate of the plant.
Leave a Comment:
Bravo. Thanks for finding this.
Not hard to find, but it won't change any minds. MittRyan's followers don't care if he blatantly lies, and probably don't care that liberals and progressives know it. Dirty Harry will rev up the crowd, and HE doesn't care that MittRyan stands on total lies (though allegedly not on their own platform). It's so disheartening.
Sad, but true.
It will not change minds because it is not true. While this was the last GM vehicle to roll off, it was NOT the last vehicle this GM plant produced nor was it the closing date of the plant. That didn't happen until April 2009.
No one claimed that Obama closed the plant, they claimed the Obama didn't keep the plant open as he said. Even after the closing had been announced Obama said he would lead the effort to retool the plant so it would continue to provide jobs...he did not lead a very effective effort, did he.
So, was the GM plant still open and producing vehicles when Obama took office? Yes.
So, are you saying that if the plant had just been able to hold on a few more days, until AFTER Obama took office, THEN he could have saved the plant? That's what you're saying, Obama couldn't produce what he said because the plant closed a few weeks too soon?
Please.
Please is right.
Trolls like you are dancing so hard to justify Ryan's lies, and this is absolutely ridiculous and quite amusing to watch.
It shows exactly how ugly folks like you are.
The lines are drawn. Everything is clear. And folks like you are exposed for the ugly types of people that you are.
So, was the plant open and producing automobiles when Obama took office or not? I say yes and can provide a link from any major news source saying as much, just give me the source you want and I'll provide the link and quote.
Second, no one said Obama was responsible for closing the plant. If you think otherwise, give me the quote.
Lastly, there was the accusation that Obama did not lead and effort to "retool" the plant to keep it open made because that is what Obama said.
(Why do those on the left resort to insults and name calling instead of addressing the issues?)
But we know you are a worthless phoney, Robby baby. You don't get any respect because you don't deserve any. And nobody but the other trolls (and maybe a few particularly gutless "liberals") will be impressed by your petulant self-pity.
Bull@!$%#, blob.
Ignorant bigoted trolls like you want to all at once blame Obama for the closing of this plant, but upon further investigation, you have absolutely nothing to back up your troll claims. And since you can't back up your bull@!$%# claim, you just try to blame Obama in general for this plant's closing.
"people" like you don't deserve respect.
Now, go back to your fox news, stormfront, etc. sites and get the "respect" you feel you deserve.
@RobDon
Give any source and any link. But it has to be from the associated press and not from a right leaning website.
No. For the last damn time people when a manufacturing plant closes down and it's not due to an emergency closing like a bankruptcy that plant will finish it's final WORK ORDERS. The final work order was performed by a skeleton crew and that was completed by 2009. Completing the work order is not the same as being open for business. This is like saying that a hospital is still "open" because it's performing heart surgery on a heart patient even though everyone else has been kicked out and no other employees aside from the surgeon and his support staff are left in the building. It's such an asinine exaggeration given by people who dn't bother to do any research into manufacturing as an industry. But even so you're saying that Obama was responsible for a decision made and finalized before he took office? This is nuts.
President Obama did not promise to keep the plant open. What he stated was that with proper government plants like this one would be able to stay open and produce manufacturing and that he planned on passing a stimulus package that would bring manufacturing jobs back to the US. The plant was slated to re-open in 2010, but has since stalled on that plan. This plant- for the record- is one of the plants you were arguing with me about the other day that the Ottawa plant closing is attempting to outsource to. This plant may end up going back into production after the Volt plant takes it's temporary recess. Sighs.
No the plant was not open. It was finishing a work order, yes, but it was not open in the business sense of the term.
So your answer is to decry insults by insulting everyone on the left? Seems legit
RobDon you seem to have a serious issue with reading comprehension. He did NOT say that he would lead the effort to retool the plant. Re-read what he said. He said he will lead the effort to retool plants like the one in Janesville. For the record like is the operative term here. You cannot reject any term that does not fit into your pre-packaged talking point. It doesn't work that way. When someone says "something like" they are approximating: they are NOT speaking in a definitive. To take their statement as a definitive shows that a. you don't understand basic English linguistics and/or b. that you are being intentionally manipulative to make a point the person was NOT intending to make.
Dizzy, thanks for being civilized. Here is an Associated Press article on the Wisconsin State Journal's Madison.com website from April 2009:
The plant was NOT closed in December 2008, it remained open and working. Despite what others here want to pretend is true, I do not make things up and I'm willing to provide sources for my points.
Donna and Entropy, you may want to try some emotional counseling. You seem angry and upset.
Cartoon, I don't necessarily disagree with your interpretation. I would note to name a plant and not make it one you would work to try and keep open would be careless at best.
No it did not. By using your own logic you said that if a plant ceases to take in new work orders it is closed (in the case of the Volt plant this was your argument). So either you were wrong then or you are wrong now. Which one is it?
Holy smokes we need better trolls! When Steve had the Carpetbagger Report we had some wonderful trolls. These people are morons!
If RD actually has evidence to back up his claims, why does he only say that he will produce it rather than simply doing so? What is he waiting for? An engraved invitation? The proper astrological alignment? The voice of God? Bollocks! The hand-waving insistence is meant to disguise the fact that he's got nothing.
Robbywobby, instead of your arrogant sanctimony and crass dishonesty you ought to act like a decent human being, but you obviously have no intention of doing that. Take a long walk off a short pier.
Hey, Monk...I have included the link now. I just wanted to show that my source was not a Right Wind blog but could be any major news agency...that's all.
blob,
It is you who is mentally retarded. So you need to be seeking help, not me.
You do nothing but post bull@!$%# on this site.
You don't deserve the respect of anyone on this site.
I'm pretty sure his argument is "We only have most of your money. We want ALL of your money!"
It's a LIE !!!!!!!!!!
The first comment I saw under this picture on another site: "The date and Santa hat have been Photoshopped."
Where is the troll who tried to claim that this plant closed in 2010? Maybe he was telling the "photoshopped" lie on that other site.
'W,' Cheney, Fox, Limbaugh, corporate Republicans etc., Are any of these guys even capable of telling the truth? Truly psychopathic.
Certainly not Lyin' Ryan or Mitt the Twit.
The point Ryan was making was how Obama broke promises, not that he closed the plant. In Feb. 2008, Obama did make what appears to me to be a promise to the employees to keep the plant open. The plant effectively closed in Dec 2008. And, while Bush was president then, he could not have closed a private company's plant. Bush, in fact, secured a bridge loan for GM so Obama could make the final decision on it's fate. Obama did this by forcing GM and Chrysler into bankruptcy and to reorganize themselves. http://www.freep.com/article/20120830/NEWS15/120830035/Shuttered-GM-plant-finds-itself-Republican-convention-spotlight
Tom - Ryan's point is an outright lie. Others downthread have thoroughly detailed how so.
June, do you know the plant was open and producing vehicles in April 2009, still an operating GM plant (although no longer making GM vehicles but fulfilling a contract with another automaker). So, it was open and not closed.
http://www.politifact.com/wisconsin/statements/2012/aug/29/paul-ryan/did-barack-obama-break-promise-keep-gm-plant-open/
No he did not. He never promised to keep the plant open. He said he would work with the industry to try to prevent plants like the Janesville one from closing down. Seriously people you need to work on reading comprehension.
Okay A. the government can't force you into bankruptcy B. this isn't what happened. The plant was on the verge of declaring bankruptcy so under the Bush Administration a first issue of the auto bailout was passed. The company then reported trouble so Obama passed a second auto bailout, but made restructuring the company a contingency for receiving the bailout (the company was not forced to participate). The company ended up filing bankruptcy after this second bailout in large part because the bailout didn't come fast enough (it failed the day after the money was issued: had the money been issued immediately and in the full amount it would likely have not failed). This then put the company into bankruptcy: when a company goes into bankruptcy the government takes it over, retools it, and then sells it back to the private sector. Obama chose to bypass this at the urging of the GM executives and instead of having the normal restructuring process take place he allowed the fed to take over and administer the business and then custody was handed back over to GM after that period (as per normal bankruptcy rules). Sheesh.
No it was not. In manufacturing you are NOT open for business unless you are ACTIVELY taking in new work orders. If you are no longer taking in work orders you are considered closed- whether that be temporary or permanent. YOU accused the plant in Detroit of being closed because it will not be completing any orders for 4 weeks, but NOW you are contradicting yourself by saying oh no no no because the lights were on it wasn't closed. Either you were wrong then or you are wrong now. You cannot have it both ways.
Cartoon, I would say a plant is closed when it stops production, even if temporarily. It's semantics and your point of no new orders is probably just as valid.
I guess my point would be that MSNBC news and others didn't say Ryan was leaving out part of the story, they said he was lying. I didn't find anything factually untrue about the GM Janesville situation in his speech last night. He did not say it announced its closure in June 2008 nor did he say the last GM auto was made in December 2008. But no one on MSNBC said the plant continue production for an existing contract and did not close production until after Obama was in office.
Either both sides are only telling part of the story or both sides are lying...
When a company goes into bankruptcy, the government doesn't take it over. It is placed under court supervision. The court works with the company and creditors to resolve financial issues. That's what's different in the auto bailout
It is not semantics Rob. When a plant is taking on active orders they are making money. When a plant is not taking on active orders they are not making money. In the former instance the plant has a fully staffed crew, is fully operational, is using massive resources, is giving out paychecks, and is administering product. In the latter instance it is completing an order for a contract that has already been completed, is not making new revenue, is running on a skeleton crew using minimal sources, and is considered closed to the industry. If you were to Google this plant online it would say sorry we're closed even though there were people finishing out the order. Why? Because that is how it works in the manufacturing world.
In the case of the plant in Detroit they put their employees on temporary leave while they waited for the new contract to come in. They were actively receiving a contract and therefore were actively open for business. Had they received an order by GM to build a different car they would've immediately jumped on that and went back to full capacity. In the case of the Janesville plant this was not the case. The plant was closed so nothing would have changed. In fact it is even likely that that plant was already in the process of being leased to a new company by then. The two are dramatically different. What you appear to be doing is intentionally obfuscating the difference while ignoring your blatant hypocrisy on the issue.
For the record- a plant stopping production- means that the plant is not receiving new work orders. It does not mean that the plant isn't finishing up current work orders. Have you never worked in this type of trade before???? In the case of the Volt plant- by YOUR own logic- that would mean you were lying when you said the Volt plant was closing down and you're lying now when you said the Janesville plant was still open. Sigh.
No. There is the possibility that one side is lying and the other side is telling the truth. Both Ryan and Walker stated that the Janesville plant closed while on Obama's watch due to a failed auto bailout. The bailout they were referring to was the Bush auto bailout and Obama had nothing to do with the plant's closing.
I also see that you are no longer repeating the myth that Obama promised to keep the plant open. Fantastic- we got at least half way.
*Smacking forehead* What the hell do you think the court and IRS are Tom?!?!?!?!?!?! Seriously people for the love of GOD just STOP already. He was WRONG. Just say it. He was WRONG. It's OK. The END OF THE WORLD doesn't happen when someone is wrong. You apologize for being wrong and then you move on. THAT'S IT.
It's like talking to a bunch of 20 year old drunken frat boys who are so hocked up on their own self-image and testosterone that they just won't admit to anything, don't care how little sense their propositions make, and won't stop until everyone else submits to their illogical way of thinking.
"It's like talking to a bunch of 20 year old drunken frat boys..."
And yet, this site allows them to go on using these threads as their toilet.
Let's put it this way:
If I call to order food up at 9pm and the company stopped taking orders at 8:50pm and closes at 9pm they will not fulfill that order now will they? Why? Because they are closed. Does this mean that this necessitates that no staff will be in the building when I walk past it at 9pm? No. Hell maybe they'll still be making deliveries well after the 9pm closing time. But they are still closed. They are not accepting new orders. They are not open for business. This was the state of the Janesville factory.
Rob argued on one thread "oh yes it's shut down for 4 weeks to a skeleton crew" when it came to the Detroit factory. But then Rob says when it comes to the Janesville factory that "they were still open when running a skeleton crew! A skeleton crew doesn't mean the place is shut down!" Of course Rob has yet to acknowledge this hypocrisy and explain which interpretation is correct. Since both are his arguments it's up to him to articulate it. But in the case of our pizza analogy Rob is attempting to argue that because he sees pizza delivery guys going out past the time of closing this means the place is still open. No they are not: but they DO have to finish the orders that were made before they closed.
Cartoon, please provide a link to this quote I supposedly made. You keep saying I said the Volt production plant was "closing," I only said the volt production line was shutting down. Please provide a link or direct quote where I said the plant was closing.
You are completely misstating me to try and make your case.
Bottomline, production at the GM plant in Janesville continued into 2009. Obama knew it was closing when he said he would lead the effort to retool so it (and others "like" it) could continue to provide jobs. I've provide links to articles above (here and other threads under this article) that offer my proof. I'll let them speak for my position.
Now let's see if you will speak for your position and show where I made the quote you claim or said that the GM Volt plant was "closing" as you claim I said. My guess, you will not (...because you can't).
So you say well I said it was shutting down therefore I was right! No hypocrisy! It was shutting down! Whereas this plant is closing down! There isn't a difference in this instance. One was going on stand-by while it waited to receive product for it's new work order. The other was closed, but was finishing a final order. Rather than admit that you're wrong you continuously deflect the conversation. The fact of the matter is, Rob, when it was an attack against Obama then a skeleton crew was evidence to you of the plant being shut down. Now when it's used as a defense for Ryan a skeleton crew is evidence of a plant being open. You have openly expressed hypocrisy here and I hope everyone blogging here throws this back in Rob's face the next time he makes some faux attempt at neutrality pretending to be the objective, unbiased observer.
Another win for IOKIYAR
PS- you DO realize that you would STILL be admitting to hypocrisy here even by your own logic, yes?
There is a huge difference between "shutting" down a production line (of a particular vehicle) and "closing" a production plant. Sorry that you don't see the difference.
In all this discussion, I'm wondering what Congressman Ryan did to try to save this plant in his district. I have heard a lot of blame and accusation thrown at President Obama, all regarding a campaign speech made in the winter/spring of 2008. But if this plant was already in trouble, where was the representation in Washington when the plant was showing signs of failing. Isn't Congressman Ryan's job to represent his constituents in DC? He said in his speech that we need to take responsibility for the problem. But I have yet to hear him take any responsibility himself.
As for campaign promises, there are a lot of those in our history that have been made, but not kept. And there is not a single president/administrations that hasn't failed to keep a promise. Not to say that those who made the promise believed they weren't possible when they were made. I'm curious about the promise Mr. Ryan made the other night regarding the ticket's goal to create 12 million new jobs in the next 4 years. Pretty ambitious - and very doubtful. Wait - I thought they said government doesn't create jobs.....am I missing something here??
I went back and read. You argue that the factory has shut down due to low Volt sales. Everyone else explains no the factory has NOT shut down that they are re-tooling for the next car coming in. You argue NO it's shut down and use this as an argument that it's bad to support the Volt and that the bailouts were bad. The CONTEXT in which you are arguing here is that the factory has shut down because it's not producing anything even though they have a skeleton crew present. However they are producing 2 different model lines of cars- the Volt model and the new Impala model that they are re-tooling for. Volt production wasn't ceasing to exist at this plant; this plant was, instead, preparing for the other model to come in which requires adjustments in equipment etc. The article you linked to, even, confirms that production of the Volt will continue, but not at this time. You specifically refute EVERYONE on the blog who states no the factory has not shut down they are re-tooling. You argue no it's shut down again and again. It has not shut down. Now you are attempting to cover your ass by saying oh no no no really it's not being closed that I was referring to. This is such a hypocritical lie it's beyond believable that you'd attempt to play it.
And for the record, jackass, I was referring to international sales of cars. But I do love the additional hypocrisy that you whine and complain that liberals throw out insults when YOU are allowed to throw out insults and call people ill-informed and everything else.
Better trolls please.
You want to know how I additionally know that you're covering your ass instead of manning up and admitting you're wrong?
They weren't shutting down production of the car. The article YOU linked to said that this plant would continue to produce the Chevy Volt. The problem is they can't produce both at the same time. They are gearing up for the Impala and will finish that order and then will replace Volt orders as new ones come in (which is the way it works in manufacturing). You're now attempting to say oh no what I was arguing on the other article was that they were shutting down the production line. No you weren't. In fact it took several different people- including myself- correcting you before you changed your language on the issue. You didn't admit then that you were wrong either. You just changed it by the end of the exchange and deflected all responsibility onto everyone else. And now you're trying to pretend that you had the same position all along when you did not.
When a skeleton crew is running while waiting for a new order to come in that to you is evidence that the plant is over with and that this was a waste of tax payer dollars and Obama is bad.
When a skeleton crew is running a factory that closed under Bush this is evidence that no really they're open and it's Obama's fault that it didn't stay open.
Seriously are you THAT in love with your own self-image that you can't admit when you are wrong? The plant never shut down production of the Volt- it's gearing up to produce the Impala and will produce Volts as new orders come in. The Janesville plant closed in 2008, but had to finish it's final work order before shutting the doors. So you are either a. admitting that you were wrong then or b. admitting that you're wrong now. Which one is it? Just admit it. It's OK to be wrong.
This will be my last reply here...feel free to have the last word.
It amazes me how you summarize what I supposedly said without any quotes.
Here are the facts:
1. Volt production line is shutting down so that the new Impala may be produced there. GM will say it is not because of poor Volt sales, what do you expect. Industry experts say the Volt has over 150 days of inventory (because of poor sales) and that is why the Volt line is being shut down.
2. I never said or implied the Volt line was down permanently. Of course, if sales pick up drastically, Volt production will begin.
3. My point even mentioning any of the Volt information was because production at the plant will be halted for 4 weeks and production workers will collect 90% of their pay through unemployment.
4. You say, "The plant never shut down production of the Volt." Of course it will be.
Here is a quote and source for the above comments that match my previous ones which you have continuously mis-characterized:
You are correct that the Volt and Impala will share the same line, but they will not be produced at the SAME time. When will Volt production resume? Who knows, only after sales pick up.
Notice how I back up my words with quotes and sources. Now, please have the last word.
You have no facts, blob.
All you do is when called out on your lies and bull@!$%#, try to shift the goal posts or double down on your bull.
You are full of it, blob.
Great work, Cartoon!
Keep calling blob out!
Nope. If your argument was that the line was shutting down then your would've merely had to say people are misunderstanding me here- what I mean to say is the line will be shutting down for 4 weeks. ALL of the counter arguments given to you were that the factory was not shutting down, but that it was re-tooling for the Impala. You continue to insist that no it is shutting down and it was NOT until you had several exchanges with people that you finally relented and admitted OK it's only shutting down temporarily and that is for the Impala. Your initial intention (at least from the argument given) was to make the accusation that the plant was closing down and you know and I know it. If you had meant otherwise you would've argued otherwise but you did not. At no point did you say "what I'm saying here is they are stopping Volt production; not production altogether." And that's because your initial argument was that they were stopping production altogether.
Point number 1 directly conflicts with point number 2. You are attempting to retroactively defend yourself in an attempt to avoid having to admit your own hypocrisy on this issue and you are doing so by arguing that what you REALLY meant was that Volt production was stopping. But then in your second argument you say oh no no I wasn't saying it would stop permanently. If we allow the logic of your first defense then WHY would it have mattered to point this out???? Of course it would not have unless you were trying to make the argument that the plant had closed and therefore Obama's policies had failed. So we've now exposed 2 contradictions in 2 paragraphs that are directly in conflict. Paradox within a paradox lovely.
But, again, even if we pretend to follow this logic that would STILL be wrong on your part because you were inaccurately stating that the Volt wasn't going to be produced due to low sales even though the article said this was not the detail AND that production of the Volt would continue as per their supply and demand rate. You even refuted me on this point on the last blog. Are you kidding me?!
Nope. My argument was that the plant has always been in production of the Volt. What they mean by "shut down" is that the plant will temporarily stop producing new Volts while it does other things as per supply and demand. You just complained that I was contorting your words and yet you do it back to me. IOKIYAR, right Robby? This is the THIRD hypocritical argument you've made.
But even if we allow THIS logic you DO realize that by your own argument that means that AFTER the 4 weeks production starts back up again! Congratulations- you just admitted to lying (again!)! So which one is it? Is it that the production of the Volt continues after the 4 weeks or that production has ceased? Because only one of these was the argument you actually made. And by the way which one was it- that they were going to be paid temporarily while not working (by the company, ftr) OR that the Volt production was being shut down due to bad sales? You've now RETROACTIVELY changed your argument (AGAIN)! And yet you're claiming you're not trying to cover your own ass here? Give me a break.
Correct- hence why they needed to re-tool the factory and hence why it was disingenuous for you to claim that production of the Volt had ceased.
Wow. The level of condescension in this statement here. You really must think you're better than everybody else on the planet. Everybody get that? Robdon is the smartest most awesomest person alive. He takes pity on the rest of us. Which is why he's better than jesus.
And they disprove the claims you make about them.
I would like to add: the compensation they were given won't be coming from the state. By unemployment compensation what they meant (in your article) was compensation from the company for not working that matched at 90% of what they would otherwise be making. So, yet again, even if we follow your logic you still did not make sense between the posts.
So, again, I will ask- which argument is correct? Either a. you were wrong then or b. you're wrong now
Additionally your article states that production will be TEMPORARILY shut down for the 4 weeks. You act like there's some ambiguity about production of the Volt and even go so far as to call me uninformed because I had the audacity to read your own damn article. Sigh.
I do not begrudge people for their different political views. But I do begrudge people who intentionally manipulate statements made by other people, who intentionally lie or misrepresent facts, and I begrudge people who won't admit their own hypocrisies or contradictions in logic. You made the argument that the plant had shut down and failed because the Volt sucks and yadda yadda. The conservative talking point line that roots for America to fail (which you literally did). And then you were corrected by people saying no it's not shutting down- they are temporarily stalling while they re-tool the factory. The spokesperson for GM said that they were not ceasing production of the Volt. You then link articles which all confirm that this is a temporary shut down and that production will resume after 4 weeks.
http://www.topnews.in/chevrolet-volt-production-be-stalled-gm-nearly-4-weeks-2364490
http://www.indystar.com/usatoday/article/832380
http://www.freep.com/article/20120829/BUSINESS0101/120829079/1205/business01/Chevy-Volt-broke-monthly-sales-record-August-GM-hails-EV-s-momentum
http://www.freep.com/article/20120827/BUSINESS01/120827089/GM-expected-to-suspend-Chevy-Volt-production-over-slow-sales
And yet you not only insist that you're correct in face of the blatant hypocrisy on this issue and manipulation of fact on this issue, but you won't apologize for being wrong and when called out on it your answer is to be a JERK to everyone around you. How dare you toss a passive-aggressive insult my way insinuating that I'm somehow not basing my argument in fact. Get over yourself dude.
Like I said you're trying to cover your arse so that you don't have to admit the hypocrisy of your arguments. What I do not understand is why it is so impossible for you to say "yep I was wrong." It makes no sense to me. Unless you're drunk while you're blogging here I cannot understand this type of militant disavowment of anything real.
@Donna
Go back and read his old posts. He even makes a statement about trying to use Google maps and not being able to see people outside of the location where a protest was going on. When it's explained to him that this is not how Google maps work even THEN he didn't apologize. Go back and look on his argument on contraception. It's explain to him that the amount of pills taken by a woman do not equate to her necessarily being sexually active even if she sites that her main reason for being on birth control is for sexual activity (you don't take a pill every time you have sex, in otherwords). When he's called out on this by 3 different people he doubles down and says nope nope we're paying them to have sex. He just does this over and over again. Oh well I am hitting the ignore button. Hope this was good for you in the audience ;-)
combabus@combabus
It was the Isuzu part of the Janesville plant PaulRyan was speaking of...wait a second, now we know where he gets it!: http://youtu.be/xFIcjfWvNYw -Joe Isuzu "Save a Billion" on youtube
It was hard enough to sell the GM bailout. An Isuzu bailout? That just sounds too foreign!
...Almost as foreign as AC/DC and Led Zeppelin. Dear God! Paul Ryan dances to the tune of them blad dab ferigners!!!
Someone should fly that behind a plane at one of Paul Ryan's rallies!
Seems Rachel was pretty close to getting Gov. Scott Walker to admit the auto bailout wasn't big enough.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3096434/#48837366
If Republicans spent half as much time and money coming up with honest, constructive solutions to the problems of the country as they do lying, cheating, oppressing, deceiving, scamming and conning - what a wonderful world this could be.
When ya gots nuttin, you'll try anything!
I've read the cites, and the commentary, and I'm not understanding the hubbub.
Where does it Ryan say Obama is why the plant closed? Did I miss it somewhere?
My reading is that Ryan says the recovery is so weak the plant will never reopen
And Obama never said you didn't build your business either....but that sure hasn't stopped those idiots from saying that's what he said.
poor little shooter
it must suck to have to constantly defend the GOP and their blatant lies
why don't you just get a job?
insert (sigh) here -- this is for "Shooter":
"Ryan said, "Right there at that plant, candidate Obama said, 'I believe that if our government is there to support you … this plant will be here for another hundred years.' That's what he said in 2008."
"Well, as it turned out, that plant didn't last another year," Ryan continued. "It is locked up and empty to this day. And that's how it is in so many towns today, where the recovery that was promised is nowhere in sight."
It's an attack Ryan has used before, and one that the Detroit News has called inaccurate: "In fact, Obama made no such promise and the plant halted production in December 2008, when President George W. Bush was in office," Detroit News reporter David Sherpardson wrote earlier this month. "Obama did speak at the plant in February 2008, and suggested that a government partnership with automakers could keep the plant open, but made no promises as Ryan suggested."
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/08/29/paul-ryan-gm-plant_n_1841723.html
Actually Obama did say that..." If you've got a business --- you didn't build that."
Did Ryan say Obama was the reason the plant closed?
@Shooter. Why mention what Obama thought (in the spring of 2008 before the June announcement that the plant would close) if not to imply that Obama has 'broken a promise?'
This is how the GOP operates. They use historical facts and quotes, related to their point but not causative, to imply things that are not true. And when they don't have appropriate facts and quotes to mis-use, they edit them or make them up out of whole cloth.
Paul Ryan on 8-16-2012:
“I remember President Obama visiting it when he was first running, saying he’ll keep that plant open . . . One more broken promise. We used to build Tahoes and Suburbans. One of the reasons that plant got shut down was $4 gasoline. You see, this costs jobs. The president’s terrible energy policies are costing us jobs.”
http://blogs.e-rockford.com/applesauce/2012/08/17/ryan-blames-obama-for-janesville-plant-closing-that-happened-on-bushs-watch/
Video:
http://ed.msnbc.com/_news/2012/08/17/13339118-lyin-ryan-blames-obama-for-hometown-gm-plant-that-closed-under-bush?lite
DUCK!
Shooter....that is not what he was referring to, and every intelligent person realizes this. That is of course why the republicans either don't understand or don't care. Grammatically, he was referring to the roads and infrastructure from his previous sentence. It is so sad that you have to try to find something in the venacular when it doesn't really exist.
June, I'm still not seeing anything that says it's either Obama's fault the plant closed, or he promised the plant wouldn't close.
Yes, Shooter, those were Obama's exact words. They followed Obama's reference to the infrastructure - systems for transportation, communications, education, and so on - surrounding and supporting that business. The 'that' in "You didn't build that" is in reference to that infrastructure, and you know it.
And no, Ryan did not state that the plant closing was Obama's fault. He didn't state that it's Obama's fault it's still closed. He just strongly implies it and makes it sound like it's all Obama's fault. Just as disingenuous as saying it outright. And you know that, too.
Shooter242
“I remember President Obama visiting it when he was first running, saying he’ll keep that plant open . . . One more broken promise. We used to build Tahoes and Suburbans. One of the reasons that plant got shut down was $4 gasoline. You see, this costs jobs. The president’s terrible energy policies are costing us jobs.”
http://blogs.e-rockford.com/applesauce/2012/08/17/ryan-blames-obama-for-janesville-plant-closing-that-happened-on-bushs-watch/
Video:
http://ed.msnbc.com/_news/2012/08/17/13339118-lyin-ryan-blames-obama-for-hometown-gm-plant-that-closed-under-bush?lite
Politifact
I know, Shooter - disingenuousness often causes "truth-blindness."
Shooter seems a bit retarded on the subject , and its not an act , him and his fellow gop voters really are that stupid , on the command of his gop handlers
Maybe this is S*ter's job. Something must explain his persistence. Why not a paycheck?
Shooter, this is pretty close. It was a statement made by Obama in October 2008 AFTER the planned closing of the plant was announced. So Obama was full aware of the current state of the plant:
Seems like he was making the promise to lead the effort to keep the plant open to me.
Ryan's evidence
We asked Kevin Seifert, spokesman for Ryan's U.S. House campaign, for evidence that Obama promised to keep the Janesville plant open and failed. (Ryan will be on the November 2012 ballot both for his House seat and as Mitt Romney's running mate.)
Seifert cited this portion of a February 2008 campaign speech then-Sen. Obama gave at the Janesville plant:
"And I believe that if our government is there to support you, and give you the assistance you need to re-tool and make this transition, that this plant will be here for another hundred years. The question is not whether a clean energy economy is in our future, it’s where it will thrive. I want it to thrive right here in the United States of America; right here in Wisconsin; and that’s the future I’ll fight for as your president."
That's a statement of belief that, with government help, the Janesville plant could remain open -- but not a promise to keep it open.
Seifert also referred us to Brendan Buck, a spokesman for the Romney-Ryan campaign. Buck cited a Detroit News article on the same speech, saying the article made clear that "it was the takeaway from the event that (Obama) was pledging to keep the plant open if he got his bailout."
That might have been Buck's interpretation. But the article reported that Obama, who later provided an $80 billion auto bailout, had pledged to help keep the Janesville plant and others like it "viable." That's not quite the same thing as pledging keep the Janesville plant open. We find nothing in the article that he explicitly promised to keep it open.
Our rating
Ryan said Obama broke his promise to keep a Wisconsin GM plant from closing. But we don't see evidence he explicitly made such a promise -- and more importantly, the Janesville plant shut down before he took office.
We rate Ryan's statement False.
http://www.politifact.com/wisconsin/statements/2012/aug/29/paul-ryan/did-barack-obama-break-promise-keep-gm-plant-open/
So what he meant was 'If you have a business, you didn't build that road'? That makes no sense at all.
June, it seems it isn't Ryan that's disingenuous, it seems to be you instead.
Of course blanks, you can't understand anything Obama says. Which doesn't help your argument one bit.
Both The Blank and Robbywobby are hopelessly, aggressively dishonest in an amazing variety of ways. And it is pathetically obvious that they derive a certain perverse pleasure from coming here (and other places, no doubt) and doing it.
Here - read the broader quote instead of the piece that fits your purpose:
His point is that you didn't build all of the other things he is listing. He began a sentence with "If you've got a business..." and then remembered that he intended to point out that the business owner did not build everything around the business that supports it.
If you don't get that Shooter, then yes you are every bit as stupid as we suspect.
RobDon - your claim of Obama's quote being from October 2008 is demonstrably wrong. It was February 2008, before the plant closing announcement was made.
Yes Shooter this is what he said. He said the bridges and roads and schools- if you own a business, you didn't build that. That referring to the bridges, roads, and schools. Instead of taking him in context you're manipulating the sentence and playing grammar police (which is hilarious because you have bitched before that it's not fare for people to play grammar police with you) and are nit-picking that Obama said that instead of those.
The level of hypocrisy in you and RobDon is just astonishing.
Yes and then he links to an article that directly contradicts his account of the situation. But he's still correct and we're all still wrong. I seriously am amazed by people who think that just because they believe X to be true it therefore must be. A hypothetical is NOT empirical evidence.
Cartoon, please quote the contradiction.
......the first article you linked Rob was of President Obama responding to the news that the plant was closing. The article specifically states that Obama was responding to that news because he had spoken to the plant before it had been closed. Sigh.
Robbywobby knows all that, but he will always use classic troll chicanery.
kj and cartoon, you and Obama have put up a valiant effort to claim credit for everything ever done, everywhere. How do I know this?
No, it didn't. It created a way for a few people to talk to each other. Business took a limited concept, and created the infrastructure, protocols, computers, and all the rest of what we call the internet. Not Government. Yet here's Obama taking credit for all of it. It's like giving the Wright brothers credit for building an airliner.
Ugh Shooter a. you do realize that you just agreed with Obama in your attempt to deride Obama and b. you do realize that you're completely ignoring the sentence, yes?
He stated that government invented the internet- which it did. Now if you wanted to attack him you could have pointed out that the government didn't create the internet for the private industry. It created it for the US military and then allowed the internet to be opened up to the private industry. From there the private sector expanded it along with government assistance in terms of loans and infrastructure (copper wiring for instance is laid down via government subsidized contracts). Because of this combination of governmental and business enterprise the industry has been allowed to grow to what it is today and it has created the wealthiest people in the whole entire world.
Obama isn't taking credit for anything. Where did you even extrapolate this from??? He didn't say he built the internet now did he? Nope. He said that the government created the internet (which it did) and then the internet was allowed to be privatized (now he states so that it could be privatized which is not true- again had this been your argument I would've agreed since that criticism would be factually correct). This is a factually true statement. You are then inserting meaning that wasn't said or implied and then straw manning the argument (logical fallacy) to make a ludicrous accusation.
Additionally I don't know how I am taking credit for anything since I never claimed anything. You are making factual claims that are opinions and not facts and yet rather than admit that they aren't facts and that you are lying you continue to put forth red herrings or straw man arguments as if digging yourself deeper into a hole will somehow make you win the argument. You are so fixated on the idea of winning that you don't even see you agreed with Obama while trying to deride him.
Like I said earlier I am starting to really worry about you. You either a. don't read these comments for substance thus explaining your horrific reading comprehension or b. you are suffering from some early onset of dementia or a mental illness. If it is the latter I sincerely implore you to get help.
By the way what is the "it" you're referring to? You do realize that "it" in this context doesn't match the line you're quoting, yes? I think you mean to say government didn't, but your following sentence doesn't match the sentence. You're making a non-sequitur argument (arguing a point that wasn't being argued or being spoken). Seriously are you hallucinating????
How exactly is all that different from this....
It isn't. Sadly the only difference between you and Donna Edmonds is style and verbosity
Of course, The Blank realizes that, but being aggressively malicious, he will not hesitate to continue with his malice.
No, Shooter. Your claim was that the government did not create the internet. You then went on to directly contradict yourself by saying that it did, but that it didn't create it in the capacity it is today.
Now I know what you're going to say- wah wah wah you're misrepresenting my words. I meant "no it didn't" to mean no the government didn't create the internet for private business. But in order for THAT to happen you'd have to admit that you are being hypocritical because now you're whining about the very same thing you just did with Obama's "I didn't build that" statement.
Even if we follow your defense you are still wrong because you state the private business went on to flourish WITHOUT the help of government (the point being made by Obama). Which is not factually true. The infrastructure was built by the government or with government assistance, the companies like Apple which basically monopolize the entire computer industry got started by subsidies and continue to this day to be subsidized by the federal government (they also used government workers for assistance in the initial Windows software development), the workers are trained by the government and sent to school on government loans, etc. etc. Your defense only proves how manipulative you are being in straw manning the argument. I am more than willing to discuss things with you if you want to be honest. Like I said if your argument was just "well he's wrong in saying the government created the internet expressly for business." OK true. But that doesn't negate that the government facilitated business (his argument). You aren't refuting that so I suppose you agree. Congratulations! You've just supported Obama.
blanks,
You can take your verbosity and shove it up your all ready constipated ass.
You are a despicable troll.
And people have handed you your ass on a platter several times, but you are still here.
Well guess what? I, as well as others, will continue to call out your bull@!$%#.
Now again: STFU
Hey - if this plant is in Ryan's district and it closed while Ryan represented the district in the House, then why should we vote for him as VP? After all, he obviously didn't save the Janesville plant either. You'd think a guy who went to school with those workers would have done everything humanly possible to save it.
ANd that, friends, is a nascent campaign ad!
Ryan asked Obama for stimulus money; maybe those classmates were not big enough donors.
Exactly! What did Ryan do to save the jobs in HIS home town??? Who is asking that question?
I doubt they were Ryan donors at all, what with being in the UAW and all...is it possible Pauly didn't help them for that reason? Hmmm. I'd say it is certain.
Okay, I have to backtrack a bit here. I saw that Benen posted an update above, linking to an article by Greg Sargent. The article does say that Ryan was part of a group that tried to save the plant. I implied otherwise, so at the risk of stooping to Ryan's level (implying someone did nothing or didn't keep a promise they never made), I have to take back my statement that he didn't help them.
Of course, the bottom line is that neither Ryan, Obama, nor anyone else could have saved that plant. This point is very well made by FLATH20 below (post #24). So nobody should be trying to make political hay out of it as Ryan and Romney are.
Well, wait a minute, Ryan wrote asking for "stimulus money" for his district to "save or create thousands of jobs", hmm, then where did that stimulus money go if it wasn't to save that Janesville plant and his friends jobs?!?
And where is the corporate owned lamestream media asking that question?
there is also this.
http://paulryan.house.gov/news/documentsingle.aspx?DocumentID=200270
When the Janesville closing was announced in June 2008, the Bush administration had this to say:
"
The White House called the announcement a sign that the auto giant was “adapting well” to market shifts.
“It’s a sign that Detroit continues to adapt and evolve and address the change in consumer tastes and attitudes. And I think that they’re adapting well,” spokeswoman Dana Perino said.
“And they’ll make these changes, and hopefully be able to pull themselves up out of what has been a rough several years,” she said. …"
http://thinkprogress.org/economy/2012/08/30/776711/bush-administration-gm-ryan/
What you going to believe? Your lying eyes or the lies I tell you?
Obama is a time traveler and most likely took the Tardis and that is how he got the plant closed before he took office.
Aha! Romney = Dalek . I knew it
some lies can't be nuanced. time travel is one of them.
for now
Was President Obama using TARDIS or a DeLorean when he traveled back in time to close the Janesville plant?
Or did he fly faster than light like Superman does when he travels through time?
[Damn - beaten to the punch! Can't I travel back to 3:30 to post my comment before Mike posts his?]
Definitely the TARDIS - it's blue!
Well, wait until voters find out what Obama has been doing with Jedi mind tricks that he learned at Hogwarts.
You could retroactively post your comment first. Oh, wait, that only works for resigning.
Further proof of how dangerous Ryan is. A committed radical who will do and say anything to hide his radicalism, and can deliver the worst lies with a great smile and "concern" - a true demagogue. And after they lose this year, he becomes the front-runner for 2016. He has to be destroyed (politically) this time around (like getting rid of Hitler by any means necessary pre-1933). His poison has to be clearly shown to the American people.
Suicide hot-line switchboards were overloaded with calls from facts checkers during Paul Ryan's speech.
It was an SUV plant. People buy less SUVs. Whichever idiot on the Romney campaign that decided to try and throw this out has alot of "courage", and is "bold". It's that kind of "leadership" that voters can count on from Romney/Ryan.
So tell me how many voting conservatives are drinking from the Republican firehose of lies and continuing to believe them? It must take an amazing amount of justification to continue feeling good about the Republican Party to vote for these two characters.
Nothing Obama has done or failed to do remotely comes down to the sub-standards these two have set for our next government. Except for one detail, that he allowed himself to be born black.
The Romney’s excuse for not wanting to say the things they have done or even show those income taxes is because of all the misdeeds that Mitt has done. Mitt looked to brag plenty about his job at Bain Capital, himself as Governor, and his part at the Olympics. The only reason Romney stopped talking about it was that he was exposed for what he really was. How Romney has only looked to gain for his own self-interests even by shady illegal means and not for the middle class or poor. Who does Ann think she is kidding for spouting such lies and playing it up as if Mitt was modest. That is a load of crap, especially when Mitt couldn’t wait to say how great he was and play the game look at the accomplishments he has done as he screwed over millions of people. Romney has played by his own game and rules while he insists everybody else follow the law. All Romney has left is to spout deceptions and lies, since that is pretty typical of people so corrupt do. Romney is just like the rest of these Republican trying to push their lies with no moral conviction in it and cannot be trusted. If the Romney’s want to show how they abided by the law and are really modest, then show your income taxes. Prove that you are something better than what has been told about you. You wine and complain about President Obama and make him prove nonsense things. It is high time the Romney’s prove who they really are than just flapping their mouths saying nonsense.
Yes Deb,Romney claim's to love this country so much that he put his money in Swiss bank account's and Cayman Island shell coporation's,to avoid paying his fair share of taxe's.And then he claim's to care about the debt and deficit.I do'nt call that love of country,I call that love of one's self.
Only in the Republican Party would it make sense to vote for Romney who didn’t want to save ANY GM jobs, because Obama didn’t save EVERY GM job!
Thank you.
Enough is enough, this isn't just lying, it's a firehose of fabrication burying people in worthless and harmful misinformation.
How about the first place where truth has to occur is with us, We the People. Why are we accepting this? Because all our avenues of protest have been depleted?
If voters don't want truth, be it for their party or ours, then our government will only reflect what we ourselves have become.
How can we as a nation have any pride in who we are and what we stand for, after listening to Paul Ryan and Mitt Romney?
From TPM:
Vice President Biden needs to come on TV and call Mister Ryan, "A God damn liar"!
And make "Lyin' Ryan" have to prove he is not a damn liar?
Who here agree?
That would be great.
However, Biden's too high up the chain and the MSM would make that the issue.
Stephanie Cutter said as much earlier today.
By the time of the debates, Ryan will have walked back this lie. But he will keep on telling it until then. And Rollo is correct; the MSM should be making this issue with Ryan and Romney. But the MSM will not do it because they are more concerned with getting Republicans to appear on the talk shows.
I think the ticket should be changed to Robney and Lyan
RM, The backstory...from "The Unforgiven" (hint, secret seaker?)...most INFAMOUS quote not reported in the media, at the time, or up to now: It came just as the Janesville gates were being glocked:
"Now, I know what you're thinking. Did he fire six-hundred, or only five? To tell you the truth, I forgot myself, in all this excitement. But, being as this is a LBO...a leveraged buyout...the most powerful capitalist tool in America...and would blow your benefits clean off... You have toi ask yourself a question: Do I feel lucky? Well do Ya', Mr Blue Collar? "
Another hint on the evening's special speaker...possibly...sound check just wrapping..tested music from "Hang 'Em High", "A Fistful of Dollars", and "The Good, The Bad, and The Ugly". Also "Every Which Way But Loose" and sequel "Any Which Way You Can". To put delegates on the edge of their seats.."TightRope". And to attract a broader base, from GOP party advisors added..."Dog Day Afternoon" and, wait for it..."Cat On A Hot Tin Roof" And, to acknowledge and celebrate the success of Mrs Romney's hearfelt address...."Annie Get Your Gun". END All above fictional. Any similarity to real person(s), event(s), and/or place(s) coincidental. Not responsible for errors. Looking forward to this eve coverage.
It's been confirmed that it's Eastwood.
Yeah, my wife told me last night that Eastwood endorsed Romney. My response was "I don't put much stock in who celebrities endorse. It's not like they know any more about politics than we do." And I'll say the same when Clooney endorses Obama.
Besides, Clint is a 1%er. Why wouldn't he vote for Romney?
What's missing from the facts here is that the Janesvill GM plant was obsolete. The building was nearly 100 years old and GM was not wiling to spend the time and money to remodel it when they were planning to stop production on other lines of vehicles at newer plants.
My brother in law is an engineer with GM. He was looking to transfer from the Janesville plant for years before we'd ever heard the name Obama. He could see what the company plans were.
Why is it that Republicans pound their fists for no government interference with free enterprise and then kick and scream when they get it?
No one, not a president elect or a congressman, could have stopped what happend in Janesville. It was a GM decision.
Absolutely correct. So for Ryan to try to make political points out of it is deplorable, underhanded, and ... well, very Republican.
Here's the link in the Janesville Gazette to this story:
http://www.gazettextra.com/news/2012/aug/28/gm-plant-becomes-political-football/