Mitt Romney has promised throughout the campaign that he would eventually release his 2011 tax returns, in addition to the 2010 materials he made available earlier in the year. Apparently, today's the day.
At the surface, we learned this afternoon that Romney had an income of about $13.7 million last year -- not bad for a guy who hasn't had a day job at any point in the last six years -- and paid roughly $1.9 million in taxes, for an effective tax rate of 14.1 percent.
That means Romney, despite vast wealth and no job, pays a lower effective tax rate than most of the middle class. But in this case, there's more to the story.
Mitt and Ann Romney also donated about $4 million -- about 30 percent of their income -- to charity in 2011, though they only claimed a deduction of about $2.25 million from those donations, according to the campaign.
That means the Romneys voluntarily paid a higher tax rate than they were legally required. The full documents, which only cover the 2011 tax returns, will be posted online at 3 p.m. today.
This can get a little complicated, so let's be clear about the details. If Romney had simply filed normally, taking all of the deductions to which he's legally entitled, he would have paid an effective tax rate of about 9 percent.
But that would have proven politically problematic, so purely for show, he deliberately overpaid the IRS, in order to increase his tax rate, on purpose. Romney was in the rather extraordinary position of selecting his own preferred tax rate, and then working backwards from there.
In other words, Romney chose to under-deduct and overpay his tax bill because he's running for office for Pete's sake. That's not my argument; that's the Romney campaign's argument.
In January, Romney insisted, "I don't pay more than are legally due and frankly if I had paid more than are legally due I don't think I'd be qualified to become president."
By this standard, Romney has now effectively disqualified himself.
Asked about the conflict between his statement in January and his actions in September, the Romney campaign said he "was in the unique position of having made a commitment to the public that his tax rate would be above 13%."
So, Romney said he'd be unqualified to be president if he paid more than is legally due, and then he paid more than is legally due, because of a "unique position." (In this context, it appears that "unique position" is now synonymous with "behind in the polls.")
As Jamison Foser added, even after paying more than he had to, and effectively picking his own rate, Romney still enjoyed a lower rate than much of the middle class.
All of this, of course, only refers to 2011. What about the previous years and the returns Romney has but won't disclose? They'll remain hidden for reasons the Republican campaign won't explain, but as part of today's release, Romney sought to prove he never paid zero percent -- as Harry Reid claimed -- by releasing a letter from his tax advisers summarizing his tax bills from 1990 to 2009. According to the letter, Romney also paid at least 13.66 percent over the two-decade period.
But much of this is still based on a "trust me" premise -- we don't have any proof to substantiate the summary, and the letter offers no information about various tax shelters and overseas investments.
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Is there any point in this campaign where we could honestly believe Mitt Romney was a truthteller? Don't we want to a President whose word is his bond?
Are we electing a President or a used car salesman or carney barker?*
(Apologies to used car salesmen and carnival barkers.)
Excuse me. The entire Obama administration has been lying to you about American dead in Afghanistan.... for over a week. Right now, Romney is looking like one of the last honest men in America.
Now I get Sh!tter's desperation. He just doesn't know what an honest man looks like, poor thing. I'll bet he gets cheated all the time, considering the company he keeps.
As for Romney and his taxes, his panicky document dump might have been a clever move if he hadn't created a reputation as an habitual liar and clown. This next week is going to be a hoot!
LMAO! @Shooter. Classic response 242. Well played. LOL!
Romney has been trying to clean up his record ever sense he's been running for Prez, running for office. It's clear why he released these sterling 2011 returns, he wants the "appearance" of decency. As when he explained his "brush" with hiring illegal aliens:
“So we went to the company and we said, look, you can’t have any illegals working on our property,” said Romney. “I’m running for office, for Pete’s sake, I can’t have illegals. It turns out that once question, they hired someone who had falsified their documents, had documents, and therefore we fired them.”
He's running for office, for Pete's sake. Geez, what would he do if he weren't running for office - methinks he would think it was okay.
Romney sold you the used car fair and square. If had any problems with the car, just remember the car had a 1/4 tank of gas, two spare balding tires, and half quart of oil at no extra charge? As for those other things I said, I stand by them, whatever they were.
Keep posting Shooter - only 46 more days left untill you lose your troll pay!!
Maybe someone should fill in our President about the true facts about the terrorist attack we had on 911, yes it was a terrorist attack, how inept that we got him saying one thing and others in his White House saying another. And while you are at it, educate yourselves on the truth of Obama Care, read the darn thing. Maybe when the Obama Care hits YOUR wallets like it has mine, you will figure it out.
Obamacare has hit my wallet too! Just this month I paid $1 for my usual $84 prescriptions! I am LOVING Obamacare!!!
As for the 911 terrorist attack, yes it was a terrorist attack, but how Bush handled it showed we should NEVER have voted for him for President. He just wasn't up to the task!
Shooter needs to learn not to be so obvious at his attempts to derail; that was downright amateurish.
Let's think about the "last honest man's" stunt: isn't he admitting that the return was being finalized all along? I mean, hasn't he been drafting it to correspond with his comments, AND he's leaving the door open to amend and re-file?
Virtually nothing that escapes his lips adds up. Rather than to focus on finding truths, we should attempt to locate a single item that he's stated that is not tweaked, twisted, spun or completely fabricated.
(That comes to you from a white, middle-age, veteran who was until recently Republican, who made an unsuccessful bid to work on Capitol Hill under Reagan via the White House Fellowship program.)
"Used car salesman"?
"Carnival barker"?
WOW, that sounds a lot like Obama, doesn't it, after 4 long years of LIES!
Wait what?
Shooter has an uncanny tendency to claim that he knows the real truth that's going on despite the fact that no evidence exists to the contrary of his "real" truth.
What lies has Obama told? Provide evidence for your claim(s)
What does either your comment or Shooter's have to do with the initial thread topic or blogger response?
Breaking News: Mitt Romney produces tax documents that support his contintion during earlier ABC news intervue, that "if I paid more taxes than I am legally required to, then I wouln't be qualified to be president". Top political observers united in their statements saying "this is the first time in our memories that a canidate for president has provided his own proof to disqualify himself based on his own statements. A leading GOP operative has stated, under condition their identity be kept anonymous, that "no one really knows who Mitt Romney is and Mitt himself forgot who he was, thinking he had the goods on the presidential canidate he released those return, and well we see the results".
kathrynR, are you really this stupid or do you just play one on blogs????
Rachel,
Congratulations for beating out Fox News the past two days on the most important viewers of the population, ages 25-54! You rock the news! My husband are in that age range and we watch your show together every week night.
Overall, MSNBC beat Fox News 575,000 to 526,000 in that age range. Kind of a big deal...Hope the trend continues. It would mean that people are actually getting correct information for a change!
Hear Hear!
That's very hopeful that a majority of people can use critical thinking instead of talking points. I'd consider it a fortunate event but a short lived one. I don't know if anyone read "The Reptilian Brain" on HP, but our GOP trolls are not capable of carrying on thought with facts for a very long period of time. See, thanks to fMRIs we know can see their brain as they are un thinking and a deviation in the form of an enlarge amygdala is the most prominent and takes away blood from their anterior cortex-leaving them practically crippled of any coherent conversation.
When faced with a GOP troll, the method is easy. Just ask for specifics regarding their talking points and they'll be gone before you can hit "post". And the more specific you ask them to be the further they run.
I always knew their was a defect in the brains of the GOP but until magnetic resonance imaging, it was merely a hypothesis. I rarely spend more that two speaking transactions with what I call a "waste of time". It will save you much frustration and eliminate the troll very quickly.
Again?
But, without seeing the returns, we can't tell if he paid it... retroactively. With penalties, etc. Thanks for reminding me, Willard:
I demand to see the long-form worth certificates!
Get Enraged and Engaged:
Mooch the Vote 2012!
;-)
The irony is,Romney thinks Americans are stupid.
Romney aka Pinocchio has lied so much, and his surrogates repeat his lies, and his PAID staffers repeat his lies - why would I think anyone connected to this man knows how to tell the truth.
"releasing a letter from his tax advisers summarizing his tax bills from 1990 to 2009. According to the letter, Romney also paid at least 13.66 percent over the two-decade period."
Is this letter from his tax advisers or accountants? Irregardless a letter can be carefully crafted to say only what Romney needs it to say. I want to know, was there any time that Romney was granted amnesty? Someone who is granted amnesty regarding their taxes would have to pay the taxes that were owed plus a penalty, so under those circumstances someone saying they paid their taxes would not be a lie, but it would omitting a very important part of the story. I want to know the loopholes used, how his IRA got so high with limits on how much you can put in annually - except apparently for some.
One thing that saddens me is that Romney's 2011 taxes is an example of how the rich and well connected have contrived a tax code that benefits themselves and so many average people don't understand this.
Good point. Romney has spent a lifetime avoiding paying a penny of taxes. He still owes the Italian Government for taxes on his 50 million dollar pillage deal. Based on all his actions, it would be near null that he spend any money on taxes. See, when someone gives you a tax return they know is going to be released, they can fake it and have a 3 year period to go back and claim their taxes. You have not been presented with anything more that a fabrication of two returns.
The best part . We get to Talk about Mitt's taxes again . If Harry was so wrong , what took you so long? You could have had that certified accountants statement in a week .
Something stinks.
Romney has to go back and "amend" them all!
If the right thinks it can get away with extrapolating an "apology" out of Obama's foreign policy statements, then I'm sure they won't have any problem with the left extrapolating that by overpaying his taxes, Romney has therefore admitted that he isn't qualified to be president (as if that was some sort of trick question to begin with).
Anyone want to wager how many days (hours?) after Romney loses in November that he files a revision to get back all that he overpaid? I'm thinking 5 minutes after the race is called, myself.
The revised return is already completed, signed and dated 11/3/2012.
I am very curious about the Romney's "charitable deductions". Were they strictly to the Mormon Church as a tithe? Were they to their own "foundation", which donates to Mormon causes? Or was any of the money donated to mainstream charities like American Cancer Society, Salvation Army, Juvenile Diabetes, etc?
Those "charitable deductions" could be more interesting than the taxation rate?
I'd be surprised if they weren't mostly or all to the LDS church...they're totally supporting him and have actually threatened to excommunicate another Mormon who had the audacity to criticize Romney's lack of desire to help the poor and needy.
The man is as dumb as a post. Not necessarily innately stupid, but stupidize by having so much money he is insulated from all forms of reality.
He thought big capital would buy him the country to 'takeover' the way Bain did corporate takeovers. And after one donor on the infamous 47% tape urged him to conjure up an October Surprise (the Iranian hostage crisis of 1980) I'm beginning to be afraid that the big bucks thought they could buy him foreign policy credentials. Now that it turns out it was Al Quaeda who murdered our ambassador and SEALS, it demonstrates how much AQ fears Obama and was trying to turn the tide in Romney's favor. (I seem to recall how much AQ wanted Bush reelected because he wasn't good at taking them down.)
Boy, did Romney fumble that one!
On Wed, September 19, 2012, Pretzelogic in Philly, PA posted elsewhere on the MaddowBlog:
I think today's developments mean we're almost there, folks... LOL!
Get Enraged and Engaged:
Mooch the Vote 2012!
;-)
Romney never misses an opportunity to miss an opportunity.
What a fake... No wonder he has been holding it for so long. I wonder what his last 8 years taxes would say of him. This is just another example of the kind of character we are dealing here with. I always suspected that this tax controversy had more legs. Only two years of returns? Romney has been designing to run for president for more that 8 years for God sake. He started by running for congress, then governor, which he quickly ended to nominate himself for the 2008 election primaries. All this has been a master pre-plan of his. Allowing him to manipulate his history to try to sell the american public the lemon that he is as a squeaky clean guy is in itself disgusting. He is a cheater!! And what is funny here is that he is doing reversing cheating onto himself to try to cheat us all about his integrity. I already heard republicans saying that this shows how a big heart this guy has giving to charity without wanting to take credit for his charitable deductions. Show us the pattern.. I doubt that he has been doing the same for the last 8 years. He is conveniently doing now to prove his false claim that he paid no lower than 13% as he bluntly claimed on national news. Regardless of this year elections, we should establish a rule of law that would require presidential candidates to release more than only 2 years of taxes. Anyone can pre-plan and sacrifice his own values for two years to try to pad his financial records to picture a rosy portrait of himself. This should be the rule for now on.
Perhaps an amendment to the constitution that states the vetting of a presidential candidate shall include counting all the votes , regardless of how political hacks on the US Supreme court feel , and an unimpeded view of the financial activities for the past twelve years of said candidates .
Hahahahaha... You gotta hand it to Steve, he's really good at this.
It's true. Liberals can never be happy. Romney pays too little, he's a pariah. Romney pays too much, he's incompetent.
True. Romney isn't as good at manipulating his taxes as Charlie Rangel. On the other hand Obama disqualifies himself to be President for another term.
Finish the president's quote, troll. (btw, Romney said the same thing.)
http://www.latimes.com/news/politics/la-pn-romney-change-washington-20120920,0,364627.story
Sorry, I didn't get the memo about whether we're allowing truncated video and quotes today. Is that tomorrow?
Hey Blankman - the fact that you actually believe 14% is "too much" is exhibit A for why our educational system has so diminished, and the dumbing down of Americans is in full swing. Rawmoney overpaid because he's running for President, not out of altruism!
And frankly, Rawmoney has better accountants than Charlie Rangel - not only has he not been caught - but his money is overseas and they don't have to report it to the IRS!
What a rube....
Cry baby cry
Make your mother sigh
She's old enough to know better .
Cry baby cry
Make your mother sigh
She's old enough to know better
So cry baby cry.
When it completely changes the meaning of the point you are trying to make, truncated quotes just show that you have no ground to stand on. Just admit that your hatred for the president has no substantive reason and move on.
What?
What's that noise?
Do I hear Shooter mewling?
The President is absolutely right saying we can change Washington from the outside, and we're going to do it in November.
I still paid a higher tax rate than Romney did.
I guess I don't count since, I'm part of that 47% he talks about: Works, pays the bills, payroll, Medicare and SS taxes, slap on some State income tax, property tax, and a county tax on top of that, don't forget sales tax! And STILL, I'm a shiftless loser on the government dole because, I'll get my retirement check from the military soon.
I'm so happy he can exploit the tax system to his advantage. /snark.
Keep trying there Shooter, nice try ,but the behavior of the self-appointed,your party, seems to just disgust the American people..Romey on Libya made me sick to my stomach....so I need more much more Shooter all the lying and denying from TGOP just makes me sick....Sorry Shooter
"Liberals can never be happy"? Sorry Shooter. Firing blanks yet again. But keep trying. Your idiocy is entertaining. You really ought to wean youself from Fox News, Limbaugh, et al. It makes you stupid.
The Blank continues to demonstrate that he and everyone like him is the implacable blood enemy of everyone to the left of Attila the Hun.
Here's some "context" for Blanks.....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5X3LGAXVd80&feature=player_embedded
That wasn't the claim. The claim was that Romney stated if he had overpaid he would be ineligible for office. Mirroring your own logic back to you is not making a counter argument: it's reflecting the argument made by the person in the assertion position. I do this all the time with you. You make claims and then I show how, by the logic YOU use, this claim is contradictory, paradoxical, or debunks yourself. This isn't a counter argument- it's showing that you did not think through your own position.
How would this disqualify him?
Didn't Romney file for an extension this year so that he could amend his return? Isn't that why he hasn't released the return until now? Ten thousand bucks says the amendation was the under-deduction for "charity" (The Help Me Get My Sorry Elitist Ass Elected Foundation).
I finally believe something Mitt said after seeing the evidence! He said anyone who paid more than necessary wasn't qualified to be President. He paid more. He isn't qualified to be President of the United States. We should have believed him from the start and saved this whole election nonsense.
About the comment that Obama made that he cannot change Washington from the inside but us "the voters" have to change it from the outside... That exactly is what our forefather intended from the outset. Although it is true that we give our elective representative the power to make decision for us. in hard issues, such as most of the civil issues throughout history, we as the public must sometime get heavily involved to push Washington into doing the right thing. If it weren't for the marches in the 50's and 60's the government would had taken action. The message to the latinos. If we want the dream act to happen, we better start sending letters and marching in front of the headquarters of those that are trying to stop it at all cost. Let us them know that it will cost them our votes..
Thank you. That was a very clear statement of Obama's point. I'll try to remember it.
I recall that switchboards and servers were flooded after Obama asked the people to call their representatives. People are willing to make their opinions known, but also know that a constant trickle of calls and letters won't have any impact against lobbyists in the hall. But when the president asks everyone to weigh in at once, the people will respond in one loud voice.
Warren Buffet thinks he ought to pay more in taxes than the law requires. Evidently Mitt Romney thinks he should pay more in taxes than the law requires as well. Mitt has suggested closing loopholes and eliminating deductions in the tax code which would be the legal amount to what he believes is right. One of those deductions that has been wildly spectulated might go away under Mitt's plan would be the charitable contributions deduction. To be fair, it seems to me he is, at least on some level, and despite other likely more compelling motives, practicing what he is preaching.
1) Warren Buffett did not say that he ought to pay more in taxes than the law requires. He said that wealthy (like him) should have to pay at least as high or higher a percentage in taxes.
2) It is not 'evident' that Mittens thinks he should pay more in taxes than the law requires. It is more 'evident' that he does not want to be 'embarrassed' by paying less than 10% in taxes.
3) To be fair, it seems to me that he is NOT practicing what he preaches.
Ouchy Wouchy !
"According to the letter, Romney also paid at least 13.66 percent over the two-decade period."
Was that an average for the two decades? So Bill Gates and I are in a bar and some wise-guy comes in and says "our" average income is now $6.5 million.....And trust me, I soooo ain't in that top 5% income bracket!
It is a solid belief of economists that the employer part of the payroll tax would be otherwise all or mostly provided to workers as pay. The working classes of America pay effectively a 15% payroll tax (capped at $110K) plus income taxes. Therefore, almost all working class Americans pay a higher federal tax rate than Mittens says he has. That includes the 60% plus of Mitt's 47% 'mooching Americans' who work, but do not earn enough to have to pay federal income taxes.
I want to see Mitten's tax returns for the last 10 years, especially 2009.
The underanswerable (avoided) questions include:
- Did Mittens take 'tax amnesty' in 2009 for those who got caught with their hands in the Swiss Bank Account 'cookie jar'?
- What and how many offshore accounts has Mitt had to avoid/evade U.S. taxes?
- Has Mittens NOT paid his full 10% tithe to the Mormontology Cult?
Be on the lookout for a post-election flip flop when he files an amended return under the radar whether he wins or loses. There is nothing he hasn't reversed himself on, this is not likely to be the first.
None, I repeat, NONE of this matters whit. No sexy pictures, no sound bites. Yawn.
The only- I repeat, the ONLY thing that matters is that we are still talking about his tax returns, 46 days before the election.
Of course, given Mitt's serial campaign disasters so far, maybe this is part of their plan. . .
Three points to make. First, it's disgusting that millionaires can pay so little. Second, presidential candidates have been releasing 7 years (or more) since the earth cooled. Why should Mitt get special rules? Oh, I forget, the uber-rich expect special treatment. And finally, why should we trust his "summary"? Mitt has lied about his tax records in the past to facilitate his Massachusetts governor campaign.
I hope you win the lottery big some day, and then you can be one of those upper filthy rich people that can't be trusted, live by different rules, lie and pay little to no taxes. You all sound petty and jealous. I really mean it, hope some big money comes your way and than you can redistribute your wealth just like President Obama wants.
kathrynR, you do an excellent job of dodging the point; that's the only way I can believe you managed to miss it so completely. It's not about the money; it's about the LYING and HIDING and DOUBLE DEALING. Wake the f--k up, you GOP troll.
Certainly, rich people are more advantaged in American society than poor and middle class people. Personally, I think that the problem isn't necessarily that the rich get some tax breaks- it is that even though they get tax breaks, they believe that people who are worse off than they do should pay bite the bullet before they do. ALL taxes are redistributive- taxes are taken from individuals and spent of the military, education and infrastructure. All things necessary for a larger society to exist. A country that does not tax cannnot do these things, period, which would lead to even more chaos (can you imagine?). Not so good for anyone in America.
So, the discussion that society needs to have, and seems to be having, is that if more revenue is required, where does that come from? From the people at the bottom, whose quality of life will definitely be impacted by increased tax rates, or those at the top whose quality of life will be negligibly impacted. Maybe they can't buy another boat or something, but they will definitely be able to feed their families and provide a roof over their heads, etc. That is the debate that is happening right now. Clearly, the deficit is enormous, and if it stays that way, that will impact America's future. These business men will benefit by the deficit going down as much (maybe even more) as anyone else.
Furthermore, the deficit issue is an issue that was given prime time via the Tea Party Republicans- I would think that they would be happy that people are paying attention to the problem now, and trying to figure out a way to fix it. The discussion is happening. The issue is that there is absolutley 0 flexibility when it comes to Republicans- even bipartisan bills get the shaft. Political solutions ALWAYS involve compromise, and that seems to be a very dirty word to Republicans right now because it involves giving the rich a little bit less via raising their taxes a few percentage points. They will still do very well, though, which is something to keep in mind. It is sort of a greater good vs. individual good argument. Nobody LIKES to pay taxes, but we do it because it is for the greater good.
There's another part to the story that's a mind-boggler. According to the NYTimes:
The link is here:
http://thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/09/21/romney-to-release-2011-tax-returns/?hp
So, if Mitt loses (hooray!), you can boy howdy bet that he'll deduct the unclaimed amount on his charitable donations in the near future. If Mitt wins (oh nos!), will he quietly deduct the unclaimed amount and then be a liar (again) retroactively?
Tune in November 6.
After he loses, I think he can just file an amended return to correct his mistake and only pay 9%.
If he could have only paid 9% this year, I bet he had a lower than the stated 14% tax on previous years. And this is why he is not showing them. Trust me he says, just like he told the MA voters when they questioned his residency.
Did anyone really expect to find a bombshell in Romney's return?!? That return was created solely for the election campaign. If he loses the election, I fully expect him to file an amended return with all the "missing" deductions in it. Because then he won't be running for office, for Pete's sake!
A year of taxes for a man worth just under one billion dollars is like writing a biography based on six months of someone's life. This tells us nothing. No, it does tell us something. It tells us that Mitt Romney was so worried and paranoid about what else was in his past tax record as well as the optics of a sub-10 percent tax rate that he purposefully overpaid on his latest bill to Uncle Sam for political advantage. This is not the behavior of a man comfortable with his own past or with his own character. We still have no clue what else is hidden in the years and decades of tax returns the Romney campaign steadfastly refuses to leave open for examination by the American people, the people he is now demanding install him in the White House. - pprogressive
Romney is just DUMB! There's nothing else to it.
For someone so dumb, he is sure pretty successful.
Even an idiot can make money screwing people over, socializing his losses, and taking massive handouts from the government. He's successful at being an a$$hole, not much else.
kathrynR, I don't have a problem with someone being successful. I just want them to pay the same tax rate on their investment income as I do on my earned income.
Perhaps we should amend 718's statement to say that Mitt Romney is dumb when it comes to public policy? It is quite possible to be a genius at something like gambling, but be incompetent at something like making governing law.
On a slightly related note I'd be particularly interested in grumpy's response to this:
Why is it that these individuals choose to run for office when they've been successful before? I have been pondering this myself lately. Rick Santorum and Mitt Romney do not seem to have the qualifications for the presidency and quite honestly neither one of them seem to really desire becoming president for the reasons one would imagine (it seems to be more about they were told to do it rather than an internal passion, at least to me). Rick seems like he'd do well as a manager of a coal mine or a minister. Romney seems like he'd do well doing what he was doing before. So why run for office? I can understand giving up a job you're good at and enjoy doing if it doesn't pay the bills: you have to put your family first. But in both of these men's cases they seem to be quite adept at taking care of their families without being in the public realm. So why do it?
They desire to wield even more power. Success in business is one thing, but they don't get to send people off to die, crush whole countries, destroy industries wholesale, or get nearly as much ass-kissing as they would in the presidency. Power, plain and simple. Cheney is an excellent example of this.