CBS's "60 Minutes" ran fairly long interviews last night with both President Obama and Mitt Romney, and the latter made some news with answers on tax policy. While they're likely to have a political impact, substantively, the Republican's answers on health care were even more striking.
Following up on Friday's release of 2011 tax returns, Scott Pelley asked whether it's fair that Romney pays a lower federal income tax rate than "the guy who makes $50,000." The Republican conceded it's a "low rate," but nevertheless said it's fair -- the reduced rate is the "right way to encourage economic growth -- to get people to invest, to start businesses, to put people to work."
This is no small admission. The multi-millionaire candidate pays a lower tax rate than most of the middle class -- and the rate would have been even lower had Romney not artificially inflated it purely for political reasons -- and if elected, he'll fight to keep it that way.
But this exchange on health care struck me as every bit as interesting.
Pelley: Does the government have a responsibility to provide health care to the 50 million Americans who don't have it today?
Romney: Well, we do provide care for people who don't have insurance, people -- we -- if someone has a heart attack, they don't sit in their apartment and die. We pick them up in an ambulance, and take them to the hospital, and give them care. And different states have different ways of providing for that care.
Pelley: That's the most expensive way to do it.
Romney: Well the--
Pelley: In an emergency room.
When it comes to health care policy, this might be one of the more important moments of the presidential race. Romney doesn't believe the United States has a responsibility to provide health care coverage to its own citizens -- the Republican Party is the only major political party in any democracy on the planet to hold this position -- but he does see emergency rooms as an avenue for caring for the uninsured.
And as a policy matter, that's deeply absurd.
Long time readers may recall this is a long-time focus of mine, but so long as it keeps coming up, it's worth setting the record straight from time to time.
It's true that under the preferred Republican system -- American health care before the Affordable Care Act passed -- if you're uninsured and get sick, there are public hospitals that will treat you. As Romney noted on camera, if you have a heart attack, you can call 911 and medical professionals will come get you and give you care.
But it's extremely expensive to treat patients this way, and it would be far cheaper, and more medically effective, to pay for preventative care so that people don't have to wait for a medical emergency to seek treatment.
For that matter, when sick people with no insurance go to the E.R. for care, they often can't pay their bills. Since hospitals can't treat sick patients for free, the bills can still bankrupt those who get sick, and the costs are still passed on to everyone else.
In other words, it's the most inefficient system of socialized medicine ever devised.
And in the bigger picture, it's worse than that. For those with chronic ailments, this position is a pathetic joke -- is anyone going to stop by the emergency room for chemotherapy or diabetes treatments?
Romney's argument isn't a responsible approach to American health care in the 21st century; Romney's argument is ridiculous.
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Does he not understand that when that person with no insurance has a heart attack and the ambulance comes and takes him to the hospital etc, the patient then gets a bill from 1) the hospital, 2) the emergency room physician, 3) the emergency room director, 4) the EMT company or ambulance company? It's far from "provided for".
- remember, a few weeks ago, the kid who saved a boy from drowning, then caught a ride to the hospital in the ambulance? And got a TWO THOUSAND DOLLAR bill for the ride?
"the costs are still passed on to everyone else":
The care is not absorbed by the hospital, emergency room, or ambulance company. The bills for the insured are HIGHER because of the uninsured. What part of this can he not understand?
My wife had an appendectomy, which involved a trip to the emergency room and a week in hospital .
The Bill : $90,000.00
The grief : Getting the insurance company to pay.
Imagine if I didn't have insurance Mitt , could I have sent the bill to you or who did you think was going to pay for it .
My house sure as $hit ain't worth that much.
Maybe I could borrow it from my parents.
Oh wait they're dead .
withay, you are looking at this as a logical person. That is why the Republicans can't understand!
The absolute arrogance of his statement, "We pick them up in an ambulance, and take them to the hospital, and give them care," -- who is the "giver"? NO ONE. The person 'given' this care must pay for it.
It is much less expensive for an individual to have regular checkups so as to avoid going to the ER. The emergency room is for, well, emergencies. Even with insurance, the copay for an ER room visit is usually more than for a PCP visit.
I had to go to the ER several months ago. I was in the hospital 2-3 hours, had a CT scan, saw a doctor twice. The total for the bill was $8K. My insurance paid for everything but $69.00.
What I'd like to know - why the $8K? I really should ask for an itemized bill - it would be interesting.
What no one really wants to admit is that with universal healthcare the costs will NOT go down. The insurance companies have their rates pretty much fixed. And if you HAVE to get insurance, the rates WILL go up. I know, I'm from Massachusetts. Most people don't see this, they just want what they want....but the small business owners who don't have the economy of scale of the large corporations to get the rates down pay through the nose. I know several business owners who tried to shop around for lesser rates. They don't exist. And when they go up? The answer is, "oh, well, then don't use us for your insurance company."
The health care fairy.
I guess he figures that they can then pay for the visit by selling a little of the stock they received as a trust fund, like he did to pay for college. The reality is that he is aware that emergency room care isn't free, or at least he should be, because his healthcare law in Massachusetts specifically addressed this.
Not only that, but what about someone who is sick with something that isn't an emergency? Many of the poor and uninsured now try to use emergency rooms for treatment of such conditions, but usually only after it has progressed too far to ignore. The result is much higher costs and health risks to the sick.
I saw this interview and was appalled by the either intentional ignorance or arrogant disregard for other people that it demonstrated. Either way it is just one more clear indicator that this man doesn't have any of the qualities required to lead this country.
No, he doesn't understand. It is totally outside his experience, and he doesn't comprehend things he hasn't experienced for himself. It's almost like he doesn't believe anything outside of being a rich white male.
A couple friends of mine worked in hospital accounting. They said that (at that time, it's probably more now) that 25% of the bill is for people that can't, don't or won't pay.
The follow up for Pelley on Willard's remarks about the ambulance and hospital trip should have been: "And how will that be paid for?". But Pelley is just a corporate whore for the teapubs and I imagine Willard had given permission for the questions asked before the interview and said ok to the "expensive" remark so it would look like the interviewer was "tough".
Martin: right, straight, white male.
The Republican Health Care Plan is very simple, it is called: You're On Your Own
Mitt just doesn't get it--- Period! He lives in his Ivory Tower. Does he not realize this is why hospitals are hurting? Why would anybody with a half a brain vote for this man!
Well unfortunately some people with half a brain WILL vote for Romney
Considering this is the same guy who thinks that the poorer among us needing food is them asking for handouts for the love of pete, it shouldn't be surprising at all that having access to health care is just another example of people not taking responsibility for their lives in his world.
Agree. You're a moocher if you get food stamps, but you aren't a moocher if you have to use those state-provided emergency room services?
What a wind-sock...
Worse, you're a moocher if the minimum wage jobs you and your wife have isn't enough to cause you to pay taxes, but you're a good capitalist if you're rich and can avoid those same taxes.
The answer to health care coverage is what it always was and always will be; universal, single payer insurance. PERIOD! While you Americans cling to your guns and your religion and your misguided notions of capitalism, everyone is getting poorer except the rich. Health care is a universal human right. Why shouldn't access to it be universal? Capitalism is not patriotism and the perversion of capitalism in the US is inhumane!
I love how Romney seems to think all the uninsured freeloaders live in "apartments." He can't relate to the concept that even homeowners can have financial difficulties and a lack of insurance as well.
He also says "we" pick them up from their "apartments" and take them to the hospital. Who's this "we" he speaks of? He's not paying his fair share to deserve a pat on the back for his modicum of charity. Even with his current tax overpayment to keep himself from looking
"right way to encourage economic growth -- to get people to invest, to start businesses, to put people to work."
-and Scott Pelley then asked, "How many jobs have you created? How many people now have work as a result of your lower taxes?"
Oh, you mean he didn't ask that follow up. . .
AGREE! WTF is up with these commentators/journalists? I don't get it. Asking the hard questions doesn't seem to be part of their script. You have to wonder if they are told what they can and cannot ask!
With Romney, it is very possible that the reporter was told what he could or could not ask. I think the Romney campaign has a history of controlling the questions posed to its candidate...At least that's what I've heard.
He could have also added: "So, Governor, when you decided as a political maneuver to pay more taxes than were due in 2011, how many jobs did you fail to create?"
Maybe the debates won't be so scripted, and someone can ask the real questions, not that Mitt's been doing so well with those soft-ball ones.
"...the reduced rate is the "right way to encourage economic growth -- to get people to invest, to start businesses, to put people to work."
So is that what you told yourself as you bankrupted those companies Bain took over and you outsourced those jobs to China, India, and other low/no wage nations?
Poor Mittens, so not ready to lead!!
Q: How many jobs has Mitt Romney directly created?
A: How many butlers, maids and gardeners has he hired?
Re: emergency room as a form of "universal health care":
Plan A: preventative care with early detection of symptoms and treatment with medication (eg for high blood pressure)
Plan B or the "wait until you have a heart attack" approach: major surgery with weeks of pain and debilitation, and months of recuperation.
That is, IF you get to the emergency room before it is too late.
It's not just about cost, it is also about pain and suffering, life and death.
@NeedMoreCoffee: The debates are controlled by the RNC, DNC, and the candidates. This is part of the reason why we almost never see a third party candidate included. Here is a link to more information: http://opendebates.org/.
Every time they ask him a question he gives an answer that has nothing to do with the question. What I want to see is the interviewer saying "fine, but that's not what I asked you" after each unanswered question. Then repeat the question until it is answered.
Thanks for the link, Carrie.
Mitt believes that low taxes for the rich encourage work and investment, but low taxes for the poor creates dependence and irresponsibility. No, no class warfare there!
Thank you, Sad! That was the thing that seemed most insulting about the 47% remark! And there's also Romney's sense of entitlement that goes hand in hand with his class warfare mentality.
This guy is a total joke, and not a very funny one at that.
That was a good one about a town in Africa with all women and it does make a good lesson. When men are thinking about violence and wars all the time, when women’s concerns are about their children, happiness and peace. Women have much better things to be doing than putting up with men that want to fight over nonsense all the time. It becomes sickening after awhile, because what else is there besides death. Some stupid men’s idea would be to oh let’s go show these women a thing or two, which is really just more stupidity. Perhaps, a better lesson for men to learn is all that fighting is really dumb, a waste of time and really gets you no where. A man showing off his muscles may be nice for a moment, but in reality does not bring food to the family or in the end happiness or peace. Men are just not all that, unless they can show much better qualities than fighting over nonsense.
I have been saying that for a long time, being 64 and part of the 47% I am so disgusted with war, a woman and a mother would not send her children to a sure death.
Also, Mitt the twit does not speak for me. He is a joke, look at the repub's jumping ship. He has no clue as to the needs of the poor. He has never been poor!
He doesnt know the struggle of a single parent trying to give their children a chance in this life. Having to give your children your portion of the food so they will survive.
I do volunteer work for my local food bank and it breaks my heart to see the shame on the people's face's, once proud workers and home owners, brought to begging or what ever it takes to feed the family.
For heavens sake get rid of this fool
The lower taxes encourage the job creators to create jobs argument is a load of horse hockey. It has been tried over and over again and has never worked. Romney, for example, has had low taxes for the entire last decade (during which he claims he has not worked). How many jobs has he created?
Ah but Ron Byers , it is the finely drawn lines that are why the Yankees dominate baseballing , and so it tis with Governor Romney (polite applause here) . Yes it is those same lines that never meet , being relied upon , of course with the (Deity of choice right chere ____) winged confidence , without whom we are but dust in the bin .
While Mr Governor Romney sleeps , his money doesn't !
There you have the trick of why his apparently low taxes are not low , you see he and his monies are busily creating job after job after job , NON STOP . While poor folks sit and dream up silly conspiracies about how the rich are arrogant and merciless , this superhuman force of money (good) without regard to the slanders and libels (bad) , non psychotically assists where no one has gone before (assumed) . All this while these unsung Nightingales go about freshening up the air around the job pits of the people , with confidence elves , and faeries , who bestow jobs and dignity to those who don't have the stinck of moocher and food stamps about them .
Saint Cash is the mighty patron saint of confidence and faeries .
Mitt Romney HAS had lower taxes for the last decade (although he provided a summary of 20 years to boost his average to 20+% - back then cap gains were 30%). NOW....if the argument is to spur investment....WHY IS MOST OF HIS MONEY OVERSEAS!!!!! TRICKLE DOWN DOES NOT WORK !!!
It worked in the 1950's and maybe 60's when such investments were used to build factories and buy manufacturing equipment. Those days are LONG gone. Now those investments are used for exotic derivatives, paper investments, and executive compensation. Jobs are sent to other countries.
This is the start of Romney's new feel good week. <br />Need healthcare ?Just use the ER.</p><p>Really? Romney is just an ingrained ultra-rich man who has lived no other life and cannot fathom what it means to be poor. He considers himself and his wife above the crowd. He is blind, deaf and dumb when it comes to empathy and understanding that ordinary hard working people have the right to living a decent life with real healthcare. He fired thousands to make his millions with no understanding the he was destroying families. It's all just spreadsheets to him...... and Ann wants us to stop picking on him. Perhaps she would like to have us wash his feet</p>
Heres an idea, If Annwants us to leave mittins alone, lets pick on Ann... I'll start with the easy one. Where in the heck did she get that Hairdo? Looks like someone attacked her with a food processer
See, it's people like you AnnFan that have Queen Ann throwing a tantrum and she will no longer be open for questions.
If she's anything at all, it's a STEPFORD wife!
There's no mistaking the glow from those eyes. I'll bet if you stand close enough to her you can hear her eyeballs humming Wagner's "Flight of the Valkyries"!!!!
I'll bet Mitt's ipod is loaded with Wagner, too!!!
Romney has said he wants to keep parts of the Affordable Health Care Act... How about we find out WHAT he wants to keep before 'ripping him apart'... and as for Ann... what does she have to do with this thread. She's the wife, and shouldn't be a target at all, just as Michelle was not a target.
Romney has been living on money that he had invested... so the taxes that he paid in income tax was on on the investment capital... the money that's in the bank has already been taxed at a regular rate... if I have $100,000 in the bank and save it every year should I have to pay tax on that same $100,000? NO...
So if Romney has over $1,000,000 in investments and makes 10% of that and cashes it out as your wage, then you pay taxes on what is paid out... not the full value of the $1,000,000... get your heads on straight and THINK for yourselves...
Dear Know, please take off those rose colored glasses. If she (Ann) cant take the heat get out of the kitchen, oh wait she has maid's and housekeeper's for that.
Where in the hell have you been? Wake up!!!!!!!!
I was just wondering what MItt said in respose to the obviously needed follow-up question. Big sigh. 60 Minutes flubbed it again.
That's another parsed answer from Mittens... isn't the law that you are entitled (cough, cough) to "life saving, stabilizing" treatment? I'm pretty sure that they only have to save your life, and can kick you out the moment your heart attack has stabilized if you are unable to pay.
Exactly right, VVSad!! When you go to the ER for a heart attack, they diagnose and stabalize you. And if you don't need emergency surgery, they cut you loose. You can not get the necessary follow up care from the Emergency Room.
Romney TOTALLY understands the argument. He created ROMNEYCARE in Mass. One more time he is LYING and pandering and hoping that you won't notice. He was a GOVERNOR for cripes sake and he KNOWS the cost to the state...but he is trying to be a 'severe conservative' on camera.
exactly, he knows that its the unpaid emergency room visits that force the hospitals to jack up the prices. the reason for romneycare, at least in part, was to stop the emergency room visits by insuring everyone so the hospital costs would go down for everyone. He knows this, he is just lying straight through and I hope it comes out in the debates.
This is the start of Romney's new feel good week.
Need healthcare ?Just use the ER.Really?
Romney is just an ingrained ultra-rich man who has lived no other life and cannot fathom what it means to be poor. He considers himself and his wife above the crowd. He is blind, deaf and dumb when it comes to empathy and understanding that ordinary hard working people have the right to living a decent life with real healthcare. He fired thousands to make his millions with no understanding the he was destroying families. It's all just spreadsheets to him...... and Ann wants us to stop picking on him. Perhaps she would like to have us wash his feet.
Watched the Romney interview on 60 minute's.It was'nt only what he said about health care which was bad enough.When he talked about tax cut's and reform,he said he would lower tax's on the middle class,but he has already said that he consider's the middle class $250,000 per yr.His plan for tax reform from what I heard seem's to be revenue neutral, in other word's just give the wealthy more money.Just another Bush great tax giveaway.The guy is all over the board on just about everything except tax break's for the wealthy including himself.I will recieve my mail in ballot in a few day's and I cannot mail it in fast enough with my vote for the President Obama.
And don't forget he is getting rid of those loopholes. I assure you since he is further cutting taxes on the top that he isn't getting rid of their loopholes which obviously he adores considering he used everyone available as did his financial backers that he would need for reelection. No he will use Ryans budget as a basis for the loopholes. Lower taxes on the lower income and as I understand it at the same time eliminating the Earned Income Tax credit as well as other credits so badly needed by Americans. So all those single parents out there trying to get some of the money back on what they are spending on childcare with their limited income will now have taxes 20% lower on a low income which means nothing PLUS they will loose credits that keep them working. What would happen then. I guess they wouldn't be able to afford childcare and they would have to go on the non existent welfare food stamp program. How in the world does he expect people to survive with everything he has planned to do to this country. People should be scared to death of him becoming our President. I think last night he let a lot slip. I for one am totally looking forward to the debates. I don't think Obama will let him get away with his one liners. He doesn't say much about his policies because if he did he would only get a few votes and only from the people also parking their money off shore!
My daughter used the Earned Income Credit every year and yes, she did not pay taxes. She also did not receive one dime from the father of her children, except one year when the government took it out of his tax refund. So.....as soon as she received the money she caught up on the buying of things that she was not able to provide for the children during the year. Although she did not create any jobs, she contributed to better the economy by spending the money instead of saving it. What more do they want out of a single mother....BLOOD? She never asked for welfare because she was to proud. Yes she had to have help from the family, but NEVER the government. To ROBME: remember what your friend Clint Eastwood said to the blank chair (disgusting by the way)....."he can't do that to himself". Maybe not, but you are doing your darnest to do it to the less than wealthy people in this country. I hate him. (I know it's strong but true)
We have health care you self-entitled, government sucking lamprey! It's called the emergency room; they pick you up fix you up and then you go home and die in your "apartment" after you get the bill..
Get a job, borrow money from your parents if you want the Amercian* dream.
Of course, emergency rooms provide excellent pre-natal care. Oh, wait, that's not right.
Emergency rooms provide outstanding cancer prevention services, like mammograms. Hmm, that's not right, either.
Emergency rooms provide wonderful diagnostic care for those with diabetes. Oh, what's that, they don't?
Emergency rooms provide emergency care for gunshot victims. Because, as we all know, the NRA insists it's our constitutional right to shoot anything that moves.
Romney is partly right: emergency rooms are obligated to care for your heart attack. But, the government is NOT obligated to pay the hospital for that care. If the patient happens to be uninsured, the hospital mostly eats the cost (and tries to recoup by overcharging insured patients).
More importantly, there is a huge list of life-threatening or disabling illnesses that emergency rooms do NOT treat. To name just a few: diabetes, AIDS, epilepsy, thyroiditis, endocarditis, most types of chronic lung disease, leukemia and other cancers, lupus, inflammatory bowel disease, rheumatoid arthritis, a fracture non-union, carpal tunnel syndrome, a torn meniscus or cruciate ligament, psoriasis, renal failure, and many others. If you are uninsured, including no Medicaid, you may not be able to get care for these conditions except by paying big money out-of-pocket. Some states have clinics for the poor; some don't.
Is this a big problem in a America? Yes. Estimates are that about 100,000 uninsured Americans die every year from such diseases. Totally preventable, and totally tragic in our rich nation.
For Romney to assert that because ER's care for heart attacks -- hey, problem solved -- is colossally stupid. In fact, it's outrageous, because he knows better.
America should not elect this disgraceful man.
What do you think romneys plan is for dealing with unemployment? Let the poor and uninsured die off so they obviousy wont be seeking jobs anymore.
OOOooooo mindc....you get a big fat "F" from the NRA!!!
Congratulations!!!!!!!!
"A certain group of citizens tends to confuse and disregard the basic principle that capitalism is an economic system. It is not a form of government."
Read more on The Face of Capitalism at
http://lifeamongtheordinary.blogspot.com/2012/09/the-face-of-capitalism-part-one.html
More people need to recognise this. I have seen people say that democracy and communism are opposites and it scares the [expletive here] out of me.
When the Republican ravens caw-caw that Americans are "dependent on government" what they are really saying is they want Americans to be dependent of something other than government--like for-profit entities. In other words, their overlords "smell money" in releasing all under government protection via social welfare programming to the private sector. Of course, the private sector operates under principles associated with profit rather than the government ethics of fairness and equality.
I have a strong feeling the Republican Party now has contempt for the democratic system of government and wants to replace it with a hierarchical system akin to both commercial entities and totalitarian movements.
Sure, there is risk in investing in the stock market, but think of which is the worse situation, loosing earned income or investment income.
If your company quits you and you are without a job and have no earned income, think about the risk you took when you signed that home mortgage, car loan, college tuition, got married, had another child.
Once I heard Bill O'Rielly say the reasons dividends and capital gains are taxed less is because of the risk involved. I believe this statement is intended for the ignorant.
Think of the people like Romney and the Walton family who are living off of investment income. Investment income and earned income should at least be taxed the same.
Think of the vastly wealthy Walton family, who have a lot of marginally paid employees who qualify for taxpayer subsidized food, shelter and health care.
Chester Marx: There has to be a term for this. Money laundering? Taken. How about Money Ironing? Flatten out the wrinkles so you have room for more in a smaller space.
And has Mitt ever heard that an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure? It costs less also.
Almost short enough for that bumper sticker!
Of course, that "ounce of prevention' includes avoiding the American Food Pyramid (Salt/Fat/Sugar) and cigarettes/alcohol. Which are the fuel of our capitalist engine that drives the (gravy) train.
-end of rant. . .
Absolutely right on! There are health care trials that now practice, prevention, education and monitoring, that have cut a lot of cost from the decrease in hospital admissions.
I thought about repeating the statistics concerning personal bankruptcies and all the bad health care outcomes caused by a lack of insurance, but anybody who has read Steve for any length of time knows that what Romney proposes is the continuation of a nightmare for all Americans, because those of us with health insurance ultimately pay the bills for those without. It is sufficient to say that the "policy" Romney proposes is beyond stupid.
Romney also neglects to mention that when a person has no health insurance, he waits until the problem is acute and more difficult and expensive to treat. A wise health policy encourages people to see a doctor regularly, and at the first sign of trouble, to catch a minor chest pain and shortness of breath months before it becomes a life threatening heart attack that entails ambulance rides and heroid medical efforts.
Why didn't the interviewer ask Romney why Ann doesn't use the emergency room for her MS care?
Or her breast cancer? If she presented to the ER with symptoms from MS, they would likely have done at least some testing. But if she presented with a lump in her breast, they would have told her to go see a primary care doctor. They don't do mammograms in the Emergeny Room.
*Visions of Mitt stuffing his mattress with money, rather than investing it.*
On health care, when are these folks going to be asked why they favour letting people die or financial ruin rather than a system of health care that covers everyone?
Start with two core elements... we cover everyone, we take the burden of it off business. Design a health care system.
Okay.
1) Government raises premium revenue.
2) Government mandates core health coverage.
3) You choose your insurer, government pays the bill.
4) If you wish, you can purchase additional coverage elements over and above the core ones, at your expense.
5) Reverse the trend of the last thirty years of demutualisation, and mandate all health insurers be mutuals.
6) Ban pharmaceutical advertising.
Welcome to Canada!
Yay!
Cutting to the nitty-gritty of the Romney candidacy, Romney is ridiculous. Period. And dangerous to democracy, liberty, and the world.
I HATE romney!!!! What a DB!
How many jobs has Mr. Romney created in the last year? Outside hiring people for his campaign?
Horse trainers, and elevator technicians come to mind.
Bakers, too...for all that cake Willard and Ann will want the public to eat!!!
I kept wondering when someone would reference "...let them eat cake." I believe they (The Romney's) do feel like entitled french aristocracy and the rest of the kingdom (America) can't just stop bitching about their real needs and eat some frickin' cake!