Associated Press
Just three weeks ago, CBS's Scott Pelley asked Mitt Romney, "Does the government have a responsibility to provide health care to the 50 million Americans who don't have it today?" The Republican didn't answer the question directly, but instead suggested there's no cause for alarm -- the uninsured can rely on emergency rooms.
The exchange was widely panned for being both callous and ignorant, and yet, as Rebecca Leber noted, Romney apparently can't help himself.
"We don't have a setting across this country where if you don't have insurance, we just say to you, 'Tough luck, you're going to die when you have your heart attack,' " he said as he offered more hints as to what he would put in place of "Obamacare," which he has pledged to repeal.
"No, you go to the hospital, you get treated, you get care, and it's paid for, either by charity, the government or by the hospital. We don't have people that become ill, who die in their apartment because they don't have insurance."
He pointed out that federal law requires hospitals to treat those without health insurance -- although hospital officials frequently say that drives up health-care costs.
Sigh.
It's disconcerting to see Romney stick to such a ridiculous position, but my greater fear is that the Republican candidate actually believes what he's saying.
Let's set the record straight again. It's true that under the preferred Republican system -- American health care before the Affordable Care Act passed -- if you're uninsured and get sick, there are public hospitals that will treat you. As Romney noted, if you have a heart attack, you can call 911 and medical professionals will come get you and give you care.
But it's extremely expensive to treat patients this way, and it would be far cheaper, and more medically effective, to pay for preventative care so that people don't have to wait for a medical emergency to seek treatment.
For that matter, when sick people with no insurance go to the E.R. for care, they often can't pay their bills. No problem, Romney says, hospitals and the government will step up. But whether the confused former governor understands this or not, he's describing the most inefficient system of socialized medicine ever devised.
Indeed, since hospitals can't treat sick patients for free, the bills can still bankrupt those who get sick, and the costs are still passed on to everyone else.
And in the bigger picture, it's worse than that. For those with chronic ailments, this position is a pathetic joke -- is anyone going to stop by the emergency room for chemotherapy or diabetes treatments?
As for Romney, we know exactly why he keeps talking like this: under his approach, the number of Americans without health insurance will soar. He's defending his emergency-room plan as a tenable solution because the candidate is well aware of the reality -- tens of millions of Americans will have no other choices once a Romney administration destroys the Affordable Care Act and guts Medicaid.
The reality is plain for anyone who cares: Americans die because they lack basic coverage and Romney doesn't have a plan to deal with this. On the contrary, he has a plan to make the problem worse, on purpose.
Romney's argument isn't a responsible approach to American health care in the 21st century; Romney's argument is ridiculous.
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No, you go to the hospital, you get treated, you get care, and it's paid for, either by charity, the government or by the hospital.
Actually, if you don't have insurance, it's still paid for by you...until you're bankrupt. Then, and only then, does charity, the government, or the hospital pick up the tab.
All the teapubs failed comprehension in school. They don't understand what "emergency room" means.
The hospital does not pick up the tab. If they did they would go bankrupt. They pass the cost on to the people that do pay or the insurance companies. I have friends that used to work in the accounting department of the local hospitals. At that time, about 10-15 years ago, they told me 25% of hospital bills were to cover people that couldn't or wouldn't pay. I imagine the percentage is higher now.
Yes, and the collections agency will still hound you to death.......
And what are the follow-up questions when mitthead spews this nonsense? Has anyone asked him how this is preferable to everyone actually having their own insurance and not passing the buck to everyone else? Although I must say, the initial question is kind of irrelevant - I don't believe Obama is pushing for the government to be responsible for healthcare, but for each individual to be responsible for their own.
What I want to know is why the teapubs are so against the ACA. I'm not talking about the low-information, easily duped fox watcher - I'm talking about their talking heads and Romney himself - they know full well that it isn't a government takeover and that it doesn't add to the deficit but lessens it. As Fugudaddy mentions below, they should be happy that it makes people take personal responsibility. So, is it because it will hurt the precious "job creators" who will only pass the additional cost along (to the tune of up to $0.17 per pizza - no more Papajohns for me), or is it because it is the signature accomplishment of a half-black democrat?
HEY ! Have you heard of the new Republicon scratch and sniff sticker ??
It smells like the BS from Romney/Ryan and their Right-Wing-Nut, Vulture Capitalist puppet masters !
Because they know that once the USA actually has the system fully working, people won't want to ever do without. Like Social Security and Medicare.
And it will, forever after, be known as "Obamacare." Be very, very, careful what you ask for because sometimes you get it.
I am in agreement with all who realize Mitt Romney has been so enveloped in privilege and luxury he is completely blind to the realities facing millions of Americans everyday, and he is wont to be our president!
Hey Mitt, you're a menace to our society, you're on a fool's parade and I have no respect for people like you who think themselves worthy of my attention or concern in the first place! I'm doing just fine without your condensations and poorly thought out non-solutions to problems that only exist in the canyons of your mind! Your priorities and concerns are not the ones I and millions of my fellow Americans have to live with as your world is not as real as mine!
I live within the excitement of the struggle! You Mr. Romney have others engage the struggle for you! -Kevo
I am self employed and do not have insurance for myself or my daughter, no state assistance of any kind. When recently I did hurt my arm, suddenly, I immediately went to the ER where I live and was told because I did not have insurance I should realize it was going to cost a minimum of $1000 just to walk through the door by the intake personnel in the ER and I should just go find a doctor's office to take a look at it. Since our community has 2 clinics and no income based clinics, I would have to go home and make phone calls to see who would see me. Isn't the emergency room supposed to be for emergencies? I'm not asking for a handout or for someone to pay my bill, but if Mittens expects the ERs to fill the gap I hope he lets them know about that, because I do not think they are ready for the influx of people who do not have insurance who are going to walk thru their doors. We need more income based clinics for those who do not have insurance and don't qualify for any assistance.
"Go broke"?!? Whaddya mean "go broke"? Doesn't everyone have millions and millions of dollars to pay their hospital bills? Moochers!
As a RN I worked the 12 hour night shift in the ER. We had people coming in that could have been taken care of in the doctor's office, but didn't have the money to go there for care and no insurance. Children with 103 and 104 temps. These bills are passed on to people with insurance. So your insurance rates go up. Awhile back when my Mother was alive she had real good insurance through my Father. There was things on the bill that she didn't receive. I took the bill which was paid by insurance and showed the CEO what she didn't get, He said sometimes things get put on by mistake, I told him they should be taken off and insurance given back the money, that my Father was very upset over it. He just said can't do that it has been paid, and we have a lot of people with no insurance or way to pay their bills. Don't you think it would be better if we had some way to cover the people that fall through the cracks and can't pay their bills like a cheap Government insurance , then maybe our insurance wouldn't be so high. I have a granddaughter who works for min. wage, she cannot afford insurance if she ever got very sick it would be real bad, right now her mother who is disabled has to pay for these visites, and if the girl gets sick the mother has to try and pay the bill and get the Rx for her. No medicaid doesn't cover min. wage people,if they are single. The ER is not for colds, sore throats,etc. They are for real emergency's, strokes, accidents, etc. You do not use the ER for a office visite. A visite to the doctors office is so high now that normal people without some type of insurance can not afford them.
Many hospitals are demanding you pay in advance. They can't deny emergency care, but some try.
There is no limit to the shamelessness of Mendacious Mitt. Forget "Moderate Mitt," he has always been "Mendacious Mitt."
I think Romney is not a moderate,the MSM is pushing this narrative for whatever
reason.Nothing in Romney's policies indicate that he isn't a moderate--His plan for this country is the classic Republican BS.Cut taxes and the confidence fairy and Angel will flood us with Jobs.
In MA,i hear people say his was a moderate,i think that's kind of a stretch.Romney hold the record for the highest number of vetoes by a governor in just 4 years.From simple stuffs like rights for LGBT to stem cell research.
What is consternating is that Romney seem to genuinely believe in this crap.
He's back. He's back. That's why they call him Slim Shady. Will the real Mitt Romney please stand up. Please stand up. Please stand up.
President Clinton says he's missed you.
@Only4RM @Lawrence --If Ann Romney had Mitt's brand of health care, she'd be dead. When breast cancer makes u sick enough 4 ER, it's 2 late.
Retweeted by Black Chuck Todd
what's so callous? i mean, it isn't like he or ann are any more permitted to sleep under bridges than those poor souls who must resort to the emergency room.
@Only4RM @Lawrence --If Ann Romney had Mitt's brand of health care, she'd be dead. When breast cancer makes u sick enough 4 ER, it's 2 late.
Retweeted by Black Chuck Todd
espy; good quote! She would have been blacklisted, like my wife was, for being pregnant, as a pre-existing condition!!!!!
The have a lot of money so don't have to worry if need treatment, which is real nice As he said don't worry about the 47 percent now pulled it down to 39 percent.
People (that's regular Americans, Mr. Romney) die every year because they are not able to get preventative treatment (such as dialysis) because those don't get taken care of in an ER.
What is funny is that 'Obamacare' does what the Republicans seem to want to clamor for: self-responsibiliity. Under O'care, people have to get insurance, on their own, or else face penalties, rather than relying on the Government or other Americans to pick up the tab (as is what happens with Romney Care- ie- go to an emergency room).
Yes, there are subsidies to help lower income people afford health care, but since (most) everybody will have coverage, health care costs will, if not go down, at least slow their accelerated rise.
Its just pathetic what the Republicans have been doing and saying to get this man elected.
Um, no. Obamacare is socialized medicine and a government takeover of healthcare. I don't know why my hard-earned tax dollars are going to pay for some lazy bum's health insurance. They should go out and get a job and get their own insurance. And don't bring up pre-existing conditions - if the free market hasn't addressed this issue, then it's a non-issue.
#snark.
Brewer: Stay out of the suds! 1. The ACA saves america money, and affoards 30 million health care, and it is not socialized medicine. The budget office says so, and you keep your own health care, so that is not socialism. 2. I guess you are a socialist if you are getting social security and medicare; prove me wrong. 3. The exchanges will drive prices down, and real competition will become a real thing. 4. There can be no pre-existing condition rule if everyone has insurance by law. You have to have car insurance, so you should have to have health insurance. Brewer, you sound like the kind of guy who doesn't want to pay for childrens schools, after your children have graduated........ You are probably that same lazy bum, like that out of work auto worker that Willard put on the street (don't worry, it's only satire!) I actually think you are somebody else that used to troll this site, and has probably changed their handle, because they couldn't come up with reasonable ideas, and was just plain snarky to people..... you are that lazy bum, Brewer..........
Lesman - I'm glad you wrote what you did, because it can't be repeated often enough in light of the lies and disinformation spread by the wingnuts. Fortunately, I am not one of them (read my other, albeit few, comments) and I thought I made that known with the snark notation.
Brewer was being sarcastic....
I do like this line though Brewer: if the free market didn't address it, then it must be a non-issue
lol classic ;-)
Oh, ok...... sarcasm in quote marks works better, as I am too old to tweet, so I apologize.
yep, brewer, you don't know much of anything at all. It's so sweet, seening people like you insisting that socialized medicine is so bad, but oh lining up for Medicare and Medicaid as soon as you need it. Your "hard earned tax dollars" go to pay those too, not only for yourself. You say so blithely, "they should go out and get a job and get their own insurance". Golly, will you tell that to the vet who was wounded in a war? Someone hurt at a job that didn't pay attention to workplace safety? A mother whose pregancy was rough and it hurt her and her child?
And let me guess, you probably consider yourself a "good Christian" but darned if that Jesus didn't say "take care of the least of these". I guess you can ignore that right?
It's a shame that you rely on your own willful ignorance and the lies that Romney tells to repeat the lies yourself. The ACA is not socialized medicine, not even remotely. There is no "govmint takeover of healthcare" as you would claim. You are LYING.
What part of #snark do you not understand? Brewer clearly identified his remarks as sarcasm. Who is the lazy bum? You failed to read to the end of the post.
Snark lost on the natives.. Trying times indeed. I also think they shouldn't allow ER teen abortions without the Uncle present!
ah the problems with playing pretend that you are a poe. You get painted as the same ass as the others. Too bad for you.
Once again, Poe's Law withstands empirical testing.
People, people, people....
EMERGENCY CARE IS NOT MEDICAL CARE, IT IS EMERGENCY CARE!
Mitt is an ass.
You don't go to an ER for Oncology, for Parkinsons, for MS, or any form of chronic care. We should not use ER's for diagnostics, it is for Emergency Care.
Let me repeat myself, Mitt is an ass.
Now now, Tigershark - don't insult the asses...
Of course, Mitt and Ann have never had to sit in an emergency room waiting area with a deep cut, possible fracture or other condition while 12 uninsured people with sneezes and sniffles take up resources ahead of them. That's just something "you people" have to endure.
KJ; they would have their butler hold their place in line. Better still, he probably built an ER in one of his homes, and has a doctor on staff......
Most certainly Mitt has a doctor and nurse on call with a near by immediate access to a lab and you don't because you are poo'. This is because, we of the 47%, have never taken responsibility for ourselves and we deserve Mitt's wrath and shaming judgement as well as his disconcern.
Do those young women in China who work for you 16 hours a day , 7 days a week have access to a doctor and medical staff? Where are the bodies buried Shmitt? Shame. Shame. Shame.
I find it interesting that Mitt, in his own state, was filmed actually making all the arguments necessary to get his romneycare passed. He explained that it was irresponsible for people to just use the emergency room as the only solution to whatever ailed them and that under his plan which mandated everyone have insurance that the health care costs of the state would decrease and there would be more customers for the insurance companies. He has already made all the arguments for, maybe he is just trying to see the other side of it. I personally think it is one of those statements that Marie Antoinette said..."Let them eat cake!" He is just radically out of touch with reality.
The state actually ran ads almost shaming people into complying.......
Simple He will say anything to anybody to get elected. Both sides of his mouth must be tired , they both get a workout.
he doesn't tell anyone that his romneycare is mostly funded by the federal government. Only a few states have that help and if he forces the individual states to have their own health insurance, besides Medicaid, they will have to fend for themselves to pay for it. So it won't be like Mass and their romneycare. I seriously doubt the people of Mass would want the burden of funding that if the federal government decided not to cover it for them. He has Ted Kennedy to thank for that help, but is acting like it was all his idea...just like the wonderful friendship he had with Mr. Doherty, another lie.
I think this goes with the breaking Willard steps in the dog doo quote:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/10/11/mitt-romney-health-insurance_n_1957419.html
Willard: 26,000 un-insured die every year! Do you just stack them in the closet, like cord wood to be burned? Let's go to the emergency room for an aspirin.....
How would Romney know about any of this--he hasn't had to worry about paying for Health Insurance, or anything else for that matter, like the rest of us 47% 'takers.'
True, to an extent. At least since he was in France, where he most likely first encountered the whole "individual mandate" thing. That was back when he was in a very serious auto wreck and a coma for a while. Turns out that horrible "socialised medicine" saved his life.
(Although, to be fair, that was before the French got the strange idea that it was better to try to solve medical problems at the accident site rather than rush the patient to a hospital with, you know, blood banks and such.)
lol was this supposedly another so called educated and unbiased opinion from MSNBC? try doing homework, and reporting things correctly..this is nothing more that political corrupt garbage in favor of the President that should have never been placed in office in the first place...
What is uneducated and/or biased from the article written by Benen? What homework needs to be done and what things weren't reported correctly? What is politically corrupt garbage and how is this article meeting that definition? Why shouldn't the president have been put into office in the first place?
Remember you have to provide evidence for all of these assertions
Diana, please do provide evidence for your vague little claims. Do you have any? Do you understand the ACA at all and not what other people have told you? You see, Diana, claiming something is false doesn't work unless you can show that it is false. To do otherwise is to bear false witness against someone and tell lies about them. Evidence is expected, not rumors and nonsense. Please do tell us how going to the emergency room is better than having affordable health care since someone will end up paying. There are no magical money trees grown in hospitals.
And I do love the "President that should have never been placed in office in the first place". Let me guess, you are a birther, willing to spread lies and make up consipiracy theories that people put newpaper articles in 50 years ago just in case Barack Obama was president? Or simply a bigot? It seems that Mr. Obama won the election fair and sqare. Have you any evidence to the contrary? Funny how even Trump and Arapaio have slunk away when asked for the evidence that Obama is not an American citizen. I only see a miserable woman who is realizing that she's not the special snowflake she was told she was.
Maybe the Ineptocrats can just sit the remaining debates out and let Rmoney talk his way out of getting elected..
Too soon?!
Mitt gets no points for compassion. It is only logical because anything that appears to be humane is a four-letter word to Mitt, and worst of all Mitt is a 4-letter word for all Americans.
One might think that the lesson of the tale of the goose that laid the golden eggs would be self evident. People who make money from the sweat of others would want to care for the ... workers they have invested in. But there is a mind set that leads some to cut their horse's oats with sawdust, and when the horse doesn't die immediately, to increase the ratio of sawdust, and are subsequently surprised when the horse dies.
You can't debate with these people (as was well demonstrated last week). You CAN argue with them if you choose to. Trying to teach a pig to sing will waste your time and only irritate the pig. Mr Obama knows this, and tried to communicate with American citizens instead of wasting his time and ours by responding to the shuck and jive sales pitch offered by the CEO of a Republican party that is actively trying to disenfranchise millions of US citizens.
I really hope someone sends this to VP.Biden.This is a good strategic opportunity to
decimate Mitt and close the argument on Health care.One has to wonder whether he even understood the intricacies of the Health care policy when he was governor.
I know some politicians are not experts or have a deep knowledge on bills they sponsor or promote.
The Affordable Care Act could not have come to soon! So many people have pre-existing conditions, are fatally ill or have died for lack of health insurance. How much more can we take in the richest country in the world? Shouldn't we all do our dardest to make sure that everyone is covered? It's the least we can do. Preventative care is critical to the everyone's life here and around the world. Let's continue to help those who can least afford it. It's the moral thing Mr. Romney!!
What makes this even more fun is a paragraph Steve didn't quote:
Romney, in a meeting with The Dispatch’s editorial board, said those who currently don’t carry insurance would have a chance to make a “choice” to be covered without fear of being denied. But he didn’t specify how long Americans would have to make that choice, or what would happen to those who chose not to be covered and later fell sick.
And then the article quotes him on the ER thing.
I can usually tell what Romney is trying to say, or not to say, even if he doesn't make the point very well. But this is beyond me: OK, so he is (for the moment) going beyond the "continuous coverage" dodge he's used in the past, saying if Obamacare is repealed and you're uninsured with a preexisting condition, not to worry, you'll have "a chance" to get coverage. (On the sixth Tuesday of every month, from 12:59 to 1 pm, at one office staffed by one person per state! No problem! C'mon down!) Of course he didn't elaborate on what this "chance" would cost you, either. He also said:
But then once people have all had that opportunity to become insured, if someone chooses not to become insured, and waits for 10 or 20 years and then gets ill and then says ‘Now I want insurance,’ you could hardly say to an insurance company, ‘Oh, you must take this person now that they’re sick,’ or there’d literally be no reason to have insurance.... That wouldn’t make a lot of sense.
None of it makes any sense.
It says they would have a choice on whether to get covered. Not chance.
Here's how Americans die. They have no insurance because they can't afford it, maybe because they don't have jobs, maybe because they don't make enough money. They don't go to the doctor because they have no money to pay him. They don't get mammograms because what's the point of finding out you have cancer if you can't possible afford the treatment. You can't go to an emergency room for expensive chemo and the charities only have so much money...and only if you are absolutely destitute.
It is plain and simply that Rmoney believes if you get sick and don't have money, you deserve to die. That includes a lot of Americans. If you get sick and you have money, you deserve to live.....and that includes all of his friends.
This man does not deserve to be dog catcher, let alone President. Even a King looks after his subjects, something Rmoney seems to be incapable of, in spite of what his wife tells us about his good deeds.
Hedzup, Steve and the TRMS team: please be sure to read David Badash 's piece today. There could be a medical reason why Romney flipflops? Romney's car crash in France, after which he was reportedly in a coma. Short term memory loss is a symptom of traumatic brain injury; that's no stretch of medical knowledge. This specifically relates to Romney's bizarre, introduced-himself-to Glen Doherty four times within half an hour, according to Elf Effersen's recounting of Romney's curious behavior at that neighborhood party. re: KIRO http://mynorthwest.com/108/1353861/Romney-story-doesnt-jibe-with-fallen-SEALs-account
Seriously, read David's piece? And it links the NYT report of Romney's car crash, as well.
short link: http://bit.ly/TC9O1M
long link: http://thenewcivilrightsmovement.com/heres-whats-really-weird-about-mitt-romney-using-navy-seal-who-died/politics/2012/10/10/50889
"..But what it also sounds like is someone who has poor — very poor — short-term memory. As in, someone who’s suffered traumatic brain injury and just doesn’t remember what they said not thirty minutes ago..." Further, "
Which would totally explain why Mitt Romney continually makes statements that his campaign is forced to take back, clarify, state that “the Governor didn’t mean that,” right?
On June 16, 1968, Mitt Romney, while a Mormon Missionary in Paris, France, was driving a car and was involved in an auto accident that resulted in one death. By all reports, Romney was seriously injured. Via New York Times, [ link : http://www.nytimes.com/2007/06/24/world/europe/24iht-24Romney.6300715.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0 ] " ( quotes from Badash's rpt, link above.)
Please forgive my redundancy by posting this here and tweeting it to you.. I think it's worth some backstory? No, I'm not suggesting this amounts to a Thomas Eagleton type of campaign game changer, but this is worth considering...
Thanks for ALL you do, TRMS ! and high five ^5 to David Badash !
bleuz00m aka Amy L. Ringenbach
My tweet to Badash and the TRMS team:
@davidbadash #FF ZOMG! Spot-on, D re Mittens' short-term memory loss symptoms. cc @Maddow @ProducerGuy
I just can't get over that the guy who took a $77k medical deduction on a show horse - that's more than the average American's yearly gross salary - that this same guy is given credibility to pontificate on who is and isn't gaming health insurance. Add to it, what Romney's complaining about is the reason for the inclusion of the constitutional individual mandate in the Affordable Care Act.
I intend this as a non-sarcastic question. What happens if someone without health insurance walks into an ER and says he/she needs chemotherapy? Is the hospital required to provide it? My understanding was that hospitals were only required to provide patch 'em up care, i.e., just enough to make sure you don't die at that specific moment. So, a request for that type of care would be met with incredulous stares and then declined. Could someone actually get chemotherapy that way?
What an excellent question. I doubt it. Where are the intrepid journalists and pundits with this probing question? Bring on a hospital administrator to explain how this actually works. Where is the AMA on this? I have yet to see an actual spokesperson for the AMA speak to this. There are a few ER docs and staff, but usually they are from progressive organizations and get no respect. Where are the unbiased experts?
For anyone interested in looking into this, here's a link to Paul Krugman's blog, where you can begin to see the seeds of an answer. Apparently, ER's are NOT required to treat not "emergent" conditions, such as cancer.
http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/10/15/ways-the-uninsured-die/
FTFY
The whole issue started when we passed a law saying that ER's had to treat people regardless of ability to pay. While I wouldn't want to live in that world, hospitals being free to deny coverage is sustainable, economically speaking. The problem is we insisted on coverage without providing a mechanism to pay for it. Thus we had the predictable result of prices going up while poor people were given barely adequate care- the hospital can't provide long-term care without a way to pay, and so it has to cut corners to avoid pricing care out of everyone else's range.
Essentially, this emergency room experiment proves the justification for a health care mandate. People without insurance are the "free riders" we've heard talk about- they have to be treated but have never paid into the system. That's not saying they want to be without health insurance, but economically the result is the same- people have to be treated for free, so the cost for everyone else has to increase. This proves the necessity of universal coverage- the only alternative is a world where many people suffer a lack of care due to a lack of money. We passed a law stopping hospitals from doing that, but that just pushed the decision-making power to insurance companies, and have only recently taken steps to apply the same regulations to them.
Jurgan..question...what if a person has no insurance, but doesn't mooch off the system and does pay their bill? should they be lumped into that category of people who do? I shouldn't be given inadequate care at the ER because I don't have insurance. A lot of ERs look at people with no insurance, even if they personally pay their bills, as a burden on society. Not all people are like that.
I think most people who are without insurance at least try to pay their bills (my wife spent years paying off an ER visit she had when uninsured). I'm not making a moral judgment on people. However, if it takes years to pay off the bill, that's expensive for the hospital, and they need money now to cover it. I wouldn't call anyone a "mooch," but from the hospital's perspective it doesn't make much difference whether a person makes small payments over a long term because they choose to or because a collection agency forces them to.
to be honest, I could care less if he really means it.
HE LETS IT SLIP FROM HIS MOUTH
Yet many who would benefit from "Obamacare" are so determined to either vote republican or just vote against the "kenyan" that they will support Mitts plan to watch them die needlessly.