We talked earlier about Republican Richard Mourdock, his party's U.S. Senate candidate in Indiana, arguing in a debate last night that a rape pregnancy "is something that God intended to happen." This is quickly becoming a major national controversy for the candidate -- and Mitt Romney, who's championed Mourdock -- for good reason.
But just to flesh out the larger context a bit, I looked through my notes this morning on just how often Republicans, rape, and reproductive rights have come to the fore in recent months.
In August, Todd Akin (R-Mo.) said women have special powers to "shut down" pregnancies caused by a "legitimate rape." Soon after, Paul Ryan (R-Wis.), who cosponsored a bill with Akin to redefine rape, said he believes "the method of conception doesn't change the definition of life." The same week, Steve King (R-Iowa) said he "hasn't heard of" women getting impregnated by a rapist, while Senate candidate Tom Smith (R-Pa.) said rape pregnancies are "similar" to out-of-wedlock pregnancies.
In September, Jon Kyl (R-Ariz.) compared the Middle East violence in response to an anti-Islam video to a judge telling a rape victim, "You asked for it because of the way you dressed." Around the same time, Roscoe Bartlett (R-Md.) told constituents, "There are very few pregnancies as a result of rape."
In October, we learned that Roger Rivard (R-Wis.) thinks "some girls rape easy." Soon after, Rick Berg (R-N.D.) said rape victims shouldn't be allowed to terminate pregnancies, but refused to explain what kind of penalties he'd impose on women who got abortions anyway.
For the record, 83% of Americans believe it should be legal to terminate rape pregnancies. With public opinion, and basic human decency, in mind, perhaps Republicans should try to avoid discussing the issue for a while until the party comes up with a more compassionate, and less extreme, position.
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Why haven't Democrats emphasized that anti-abortion with no exceptions is the GOP PLATFORM, for pete's sake?
Simply because GOP followers aren't listening to anything the Democrats say, and Democrats don't need to be told how Neanderthal the GOP's candidates really are ... it is self-evident.
Now that's just insulting Neanderthals
"...perhaps Republicans should try to avoid discussing the issue for a while until the party comes up with a more compassionate, and less extreme, position."
Please Steve don't hold your breath waiting for the GOTP to be quiet or to be less extreme. WE the PEOPLE are being yanked backward to a time when: 1) men were the Masters of their castle, 2) White women were stay at home mothers, 3) black and brown people "knew their place"! The GOTP platform at their convention was NO ABORTION, NO EXCEPTIONS, period! The elevation of ignorance has become a "cause celeb" and any deviation from their "Kristian G-d's word" is an excuse to pillory the heretics!
These people need to be voted out of public office, because they are ignorant enough to be a danger to our democracy! The sheeple don't realize that they and their ignorance are being used to further a plutocratic agenda that disenfranchises US and rewards themselves! Ignorance isn't bliss, it's just ignorance and WE must rise up and send these people to get the mental health treatments that they surely need!
Growing up, this has always been a fairly black and white issue as I've seen it. You were either Pro-Life or Pro-Choice. There was no middle ground, from a political platform perspective. Now we want to have exceptions, which would demonstrate some concessions from both sides if this were made into law at some point. So, it's no surprise that some of what is being said right now is so extreme and lacking compassion. But that's usually how change happens. I think rather than have parties openly discuss this in the media, they should get together and talk about what they want to do going forward. You're always going to have extremes on both sides. But if Americans really want some middle ground here, we need to urge our political leaders to get together on this. Otherwise, I fear any productive conversations on this issue will never happen. And this really would benefit the Republican party right now, as they seem to have the wheels coming off a lot of their platforms as of late.
Len... IMHO the debates were the best chance for the two leaders of these two parties to "get together and talk about what they want to do going forward"?
It didn't happen then; it's not likely to happen anywhere else.
This is not an issue for the government. It is a personal issues and the government and politicians need to butt out!
I don't agree. Life/death issues are a part of every government. And as it pertains to the legality of it all, it has absolutely everything to do with the government. They can't butt out and shouldn't. I may not like how they view it or rule on it, but I must respect their authority to make decisions on it.
I disagree. It is not a life/death situation until the fetus can live independently on its own. It is a matter of perspective and I don't think it's any one's business except those caught in the situation. I do not respect their authority to make decisions on it. How my opinion is less important than yours confounds me!
Besides we have Row vs Wade and that is the law!
All due respect, @Len, but the right for a woman to have an abortion has been the law of the land for almost 40 years. There's nothing more to discuss.
As long as Roe v Wade is the law of the land, the government needs to butt out. As long as contraception is legal, the government needs to butt out. Oh, and the church as well. This was a long, fought for right that many women take for granted. But I can see it vanish due to voter apathy, at least moderate voters. The crazies always get out the vote because god tells them to...
"What we have he-ah, is a fail-yah, to cah-moon-icate!" - Cool Hand Luke
I can't believe that with all the financial crisis, division over foreign policy, and many other civil rights issues at the forefront, we are discussing something that has been legalized decades ago. "We'll" fight to give an embryo person-hood rights, but won't let same sex couples get married or give women equal pay in the workforce. Life is sacred, until the baby is born. Then it's just a social burden a broken part of a system in which half of the population fails to take personal responsibility for their lives...
LenJennings this isn't a life or death issue. This is a morality issue and the government should not be legislating our morality or how we, as women, chose what to do with our own bodies.
More than that, it is not even just a case of legislating morality. This is absolutely a fight for power and control. It would be simple to say that the right wing extremists, namely the GOTP, want to push their religious indoctrination on us, but it is more than that. This is about men subjugating women, of stripping us of our own power to control our lives, to turn us back into their concubines and baby factories. Women are needed to create more fodder for the mill, to generate soldiers for war, slaves for the factories and breeders to create more. I know, sounds outlandish, doesn't it? But actually look at the direction these people are taking us. Not back to the 1950s but the 1850s.
It scares me to see how much power these people have, how deeply indoctrinated they are. I am even more frightened of the prospect of a society governed by them.
Abortion is definitely a life or death issue, though obviously there exists a major difference of opinion about when people think life starts. Whether it is at conception or after 20 weeks or whatever other arbitrary number of days, a fetus, baby, potential life, or whatever else you call it isn't the only person whose life is called into question. Sometimes, yes, a pregnant woman's life is a part of the equation.
If the "leaders of the land" can sit down and say, hey, we have 6 major areas of disagreement, let's see if we can come to an agreement on any of them, then they should do so. Having an "all or nothing" attitude is to the detriment of us all.
I think the current status quo is right - safe, affordable, and rare. However, I think the serious lack of social and moral responsibility we have as human beings is the root cause. If you want to have sex and don't want a baby, USE BIRTH CONTROL. And not something with an 8% failure rate. Use something that is a lot more successful (and as a bonus, they typically last for years without any effort on your part, and antibiotics don't mess them up). Encourage young women to take control of their lives and their bodies before they get pregnant. If we can focus on prevention, then abortions could be rare enough to not be such a huge hot-button issue. Do you want a choice? Then make a responsible choice. Abortions aren't a form of birth-control. And women using them as such muddies the compassionate (rape and incest) and responsible reasons (incest and life endangerment) for abortions.
What I seriously don't get is why ANYONE would preach pro-life/anti-choice and ALSO fight to prevent the use of some birth control methods. Or fight to teach abstinence only. That is crazy-talk. It's counter-productive.
3.10
1. Abortions aren't necessarily used as a means of birth control- probably very rarely. They are what happens when all else has failed and there is no where else to turn.
2. In an ideal world accidents would not happen, birth control would not fail, boys and men would own up and take their share of the responsibility, all girls would have self-esteem, there would not be rape. Well, this is not an ideal world. We can strive for one close to ideal but until then we must deal with the REAL world.
3. No one thinks abortion is an easy decision. Instead of castigating and demoralizing a woman/girl who chooses to have one there should be moral support for her decision.
4. The government has NO NO NO business in that decision.
The GOP plan is to make the left wobble on abortion. We say abortion should always be legal. They say abortion should NEVER be legal. CLEARLY, the compromise is abortion only in cases of rape and incest and the life of the mother. BIPARTISANSHIP!
And were THAT to happen, then they can move the goal posts some more. Because it's not bipartisanship until Democrats compromise everything away.
And all of the quotes were from men. If men got pregnant we would not be having this conversation.
I just don't understand how people can believe that the GOP anti-abortion platform is consistent with their "small government" platform. Getting involved in people's personal decisions is the opposite of small government.
As for being "pro-life," puh-leeze. If the GOP were truly pro-life, they'd be out there advocating for good prenatal care for poor women, and providing more for homeless and hungry children.
Truly, that part of the GOP platform is about the desire to control women. And the heart of that desire is rooted in misogyny.
Misogyny is like racism; it's deep, it's underground; it's often unconscious. But it's there. And we all need to face up to it, because like so many viruses, it is in all of us who were raised in this culture.
right on Lisa!
Right on Lisa!
Somehow this got on here twice but that's ok because it deserves twice!
I think MSNBC has covered the issue of whether the Republican party has traditionally had a smaller government as compared to a Democratic one. I think that whole "big government" is some made up term that was never applicable in the first place, but has been carried on because it sounds like it means something. It reminds me of Romney's recent "trickle-down-government" that he tossed out during one of the debates. It means nothing as far as I can tell. And it surely hasn't gotten nearly the traction "Romnesia" has!
The logical corollary to this position is almost blasphemous... If God intended this pregnancy to happen, the rapist could use this as a defense to the legal charge to rape!
"God made me rape this woman, because God ORDERED me to rape her! God WANTED her pregnant!"
My evangelical christian next door neighbor, a truly decent and honest person, told me that the reason Canadian evangelicals don't get so stupid over abortion, even though they hate it, is because they know damn well that they are not going to adopt any unwanted babies .
Some cognitive dissonance here?
If it is said no woman should be allowed a legal abortion because life begins at conception, then no matter how this pregnancy began (rape, incest) or might end (death of the Mother) is a reason to allow abortion.
This seems to be where the sticking point is for those who would stand guard at the mouth of our pregnant wombs.
The idea that each woman should make decisions about her own body seems to be an anathema to those who are anti-abortion (not pro-life, which is an oxymoron when used in this context.
And as for rape babies once born, who will be there to take care of them if the mother doesn't want them? Will the GOP adopt them into their own homes? Will Santorum, Ryan and the other religious freaks take them in? Will society claim them as their own precious ones? GET SERIOUS!
The consequences of unwanted pregnancies affects the children. Do the uber-righteous ever think of that? Getting raped is not enough torture but then the mother is expected to love the product of a brutal rape? You people need to come down off the clouds of religious dogma and step into the real world. Try doing something to help the situation here and now before you pronounce judgement on women and the unborn.
What?! Actually take care of born children?! No way! Once you get born, you're on your own. And if you don't do very well in this life, it's your own fault.
Or, according to them, it's God's plan if your life is @!$%#ed up from beginning to end thru. no fault of your own, or if you get raped. Because it's God's will don't count on us to help you out! They use God to justify so much cruelty it boggles the mind!
And does that child of rape forever tie the victim and the perpetrator? Does he then pay child support? Have visitation rights?
If the victim keeps the child, possibly. http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2012/08/rapist-seeks-child-custody-shauna-prewitt
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Women are adult, free human beings, at least in this country. Or -- they have been free. Now there is a danger that women will belong to the state, not themselves, for significant years and important decisions. Many women don't believe that a political party would take away their freedom. They should look at the record for the past two years and they should view the video evidence as to what both Romney and Ryan have said. Moreover, they should read the Republican Part platform. What more evidence should they need??
It's the American Taliban!
TEAliban...
Why do the circumstances of conception matter? If a woman doesn't want to be pregnant, if she doesn't want to give birth, if she doesn't want to be a mother, she shouldn't be forced to do any of the above. It's her body, it's her life. It's her decision. Not ours, not the government's.
We have laws allowing home owners to shoot and kill intruders. Even if those intruders haven't actually stolen anything from the property. "Stand Your Ground" should apply to the ultimate "home", a woman's body.
And while I'm on a huge rant because this pisses me off no end, to use God as a reason for your idiotic assertions is an insult to God and a belittlement of the human condition! God's plan, my ass!
Agree. I'm not particularly religious, but I think my mother is. As my mother always says (as recently as yesterday afternoon): "God works in mysterious ways." But these yahoos, on a daily basis it seems these days, claim that they really know God and His plans. Sure...
Religious hackery at its worst...
"I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do, because I notice it always coincides with their own desires." Susan B. Anthony
The GOP don't really care about abortion. They don't care about the life of the fetus any more than they care about the child or adult. If they really cared they would go about the business of making life better for ALL Americans.
Abortion, for the GOP, is a tool to get people riled up. It's used to control and distract us. The same could be said for the gay rights issue.
At this point, I just assume that most Republican men have raped women at some point in the past. Well, the ones who aren't closet cases trolling for gay sex in the men's room, anyway.
This is a Civil Rights Issue! NO ONE has the Right to tell me what to do with my body! Why no talk of banning condoms, viagra (covered by insurance) or castration?
Jesus called...He wants His religion back!!!!
If rape "is something God intended to happen" why is rape illegal, why do we judge them, why are rapists punished ? ? ? ? ? ?
Post #6.4...
That too. Good point.
IF America decides, collectively, that live begins at conception and that the government has a right to intervene in the hitherto private world of the pre-born right from the moment of sperm-meets-egg, what happens to American women who spontaneously abort during their pregnancy? Will they, in addition to the pain and grief of that event, be subject to interview by the police, and perhaps liable for prosecution if she cannot prove that the miscarriage was, indeed, spontaneous?
What about American women who smoke during pregnancy, or drink, or ride roller coasters? Are they to be at risk of some kind of attempted manslaughter or grievous-bodily-harm-style charges?
What about if you're a bit overweight and people THINK you might look pregnant, but catch you smoking or drinking or riding a roller coaster... might you be liable to be questioned, and to prove that you're not pregnant??
Perhaps, since its so difficult to tell, might pregnant women, or indeed (since we can't always tell if we ARE pregnant for some weeks) all women who have recently had sex, be required to wear some kind of badge so they can be easily identified by the police, thus facilitating their arrest and prosecution if caught endangering the life of her unborn child.
And just how many resources will be tied up in all this nonsense? Resources that might be better used in protecting actual living children at risk, or supporting them in poverty or distress?
In my opinion, these issues have been tagged by right-wingers as easy targets for the half-thinking masses. "Vote for us, we use "God" in every other sentence. And don't you be worryin' yourselves about that pesky ole First Amendment, my fellow Americans, I got God on OUR side."
That sounds like one of those spooky spin off from the Hunger Games novels my teenage daughter reads about America after the distruction. Maybe those teen authors are not far off.
Dystopian visions are constructive, at some times, because they make people think "I wouldn't want to live like that."
Today's teenage girls - many, if not most, already sexually active but underage for voting purposes - could be a force to be reckoned with if a 2012 Republican victory means reproductive rights become any more endangered.
All of us who care should be doing our best to educate the young women in our circles, because many just don't know how much of their freedom has already been lost to the religious mania masquerading as conservatism in some places.
Abortion has already been legalized so why are we still talking about it. Let's move on to other issues, i.e. voter suppression, affirmative action, LGBT, Lillie Ledbetter, racial profiling, incarceration of blacks. Finally, more emphasis on the Black vote. The Black population needs to be encouraged to come out and vote like the hispanics. There are more Blacks in America than Hispanics. I'm not declassifying hispanics, just include us in news cast discussion.
Because Republicans insist on recriminalizing it... They don't care that some Liberal court, Supreme or otherwise, made it legal... Keeping women subordinate to men is one of the 14 defining characteristics of Fasvism...
Because they want to take away Roe versus Wade. It is their goal in life to send women to the back alleys for their abortions like the bad old days before Roe versus Wade.
I think one of the [many, many] things I struggle to understand in this debate is the use of religion. I am not a Christian, so perhaps someone can explain this to me: As I understand it, god gave man free will. The primary idea behind that is that people must choose a path to god, or a path to evil as the case may be. They should not be forced on a "moral" path. How do they justify using religion to bully the women of an entire country to doing what they think should be done? I truly don't get it.
Again, use of religion to browbeat those to be subjagated is one of the 14 defining characteristics of Fascism...
It's simply a bastardization and a degradation of what religion is supposed to be.
It is an abomination of the concept of God. It is using religious dogma to bludgeon people into submission. It has nothing to do with God, spirituality or anything else. What they think of as God is just profane.
Manager (we the people): We're sorry to have to let you go, but we think you would be happier somewhere else try planet Kolob.
They all sound like very mentally ill people... smh!
They will not stop believing it if they avoid talking about it. America is asleep at the wheel to let these guys see the light of day. The GOP will be the first to whine about partisanship when someone disagrees with them. Murdock thinks compromise is the other guy doing what he says. If in power, they will slash social programs along an ideological agenda, increase military spending, cut taxes under some hair-brained assumption that that will increase revenue, and blow up the deficit even more. And then they'll blame their failures on everyone else's lack of Jesus.
"But just to flesh out the larger context a bit, I looked through my notes this morning on just how often Republicans rape, and reproductive rights have come to the fore in recent months."
Funny how taking out that comma changes everything...
I find it quite hypocritical that the people who stand on the right to life platform at any cost are the same people first in line at State sponsored executions in support of it. I find it quite hypocritical that these same people that once a mother gives birth they could care less what happens to the child after that, such as human trafficing, child abuse, abandonment, starvation to name a few. Until every child is taken care of in this country they would do well to shut their ignorant mouths.
Yet the race is neck and neck? So those who like a choice in abortion are not going to vote ?
I think they are cell-phone users who are not being polled. I hope so, anyway.
Polls try to determine the unknowns,
But don't include people with ringtones...
Young people in college
And those who have knowledge,
Who tend to vote liberal, use cell phones...