Associated Press
I'd like to think most reasonable people can agree that casual discussion of secession is unsettling.
Rep. Ron Paul (R-Texas) said Monday that secession was a "deeply American principle," amid a growing number of people petitioning the White House to let their states secede from the U.S.
"Secession is a deeply American principle. This country was born through secession. Some felt it was treasonous to secede from England, but those 'traitors' became our country's greatest patriots," the former presidential candidate wrote in a post on his House website. "There is nothing treasonous or unpatriotic about wanting a federal government that is more responsive to the people it represents."
He continued: "If the possibility of secession is completely off the table there is nothing to stop the federal government from continuing to encroach on our liberties and no recourse for those who are sick and tired of it."
I suppose it's inevitable during times of intense ideological strife that, once an election season ends, those dissatisfied with the results will react with excessive rhetoric. It's not uncommon, for example, to hear isolated voices talk about moving to another country, rather than suffering through four years of elected leaders they disapprove of.
But casual talk about secession -- from elected officials, no less -- is more disconcerting. In Ron Paul's case, there's nothing especially "American" about breaking up America. It happened that one time, and if memory serves, the results were fairly devastating.
"If the possibility of secession is completely off the table there is nothing to stop the federal government from continuing to encroach on our liberties and no recourse for those who are sick and tired of it"? Actually, the recourse is called an election, and they happen in the United States with great frequency.
If voters disapprove of a governmental direction, they don't need to secede; they need to vote for candidates who'll approve a different direction. If those candidates come up short, there's another election on the horizon.
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Hey Ron, if you feel this way then secede from federal politics and shut up?
It sounds like he's planting the seeds for his run to succeed President Davis.
Hey Ron, go read the history books.
We should have treated these morons the way Rome treated Carthage when we had the chance. All these descendants of transported felonious English pig fornicators...
(Lots of people don't realize that Georgia and South Carolina were originally prison colonies)
Still are...
Ah, but secession, Ron Paul, is an option. The Civil War put that option to rest. Obviously, Paul and the other "secessionists" haven't studied American history. Nowhere do the documents say the American colonies "seceded." We declared our independence and fought the revolutionary war to make that independence stick. The Constitution written in 1787 succeeded the Articles of Confederation and produced the United States of America. Daniel Webster argued that the Constitution was a contract that could not be broken by one party. John C. Calhoun argued that the Constitution was a compact that could be broken by one party. The Civil War was fought over which of those principles would prevail. Contract prevailed.
So, Ron and you other "secessionists" need to realize that "secession" is not a possibility. Ron, you probably know it.
it seems to me that the best way to protest the unfairness of our electoral system is to not participate. Yeah, that works!
No kidding Ron...we are the United States of America and you act like an idiot with such pathetic talk. England was a COUNTRY not a state...another continent. Your stupidity continues with the idea that the federal government is a foreign entity and not "We the People"...OUR government...which you are a part of not a separate entity. It is representative of all of us which a majority of us dominate at any given time...including those you disagree with in your own state.
We are joined together and united in our sharing of resources and the commons including the general welfare of all of us. Succession is stupid talk like a child stomping his feet when he didn't get his way. It is the talk of rabble rousers when they gather a mob. You do not represent all Texans either. What you do have in common with everyone is that in 100 yrs you will be just another rotting corpse but hopefully there will still be a United States of America. Consider yourself rebuked...but tolerated.
McCain is the crazy old man in the Senate and Ron Pual is the crazy old man in the House. What a pair!
Yeah. They're both complete boobs. (Free association. What can you do?)
Funny that when the conservatives take the White House it's all about how the people have spoken. When the progressives take the White House its about the moral failures of the electorate and the disintegration of the nation. Their hypocrisy is gagging and they are stunned that they lost the election. Unbelievable. That is what this is really about, not secession. Let them dust off their Confederate flags. The only Americans this impresses are themselves. The majority of us have already made that crystal clear.
Ron Paul is a lodestone for idiots.
-And the Nathan Bedford Forrest of modern times.
This is the guy that people thought would make a good president? Please tell me they were joking. What President would ever accept the idea of states seceding?
I never thought he was a good fit for president, his financial views were oversimplified and outdated , and his previous bigoted and racist stances were never addressed.
ron paul seems to be nothing more than a coward who wants to run from things if he doesn't get his way. Unsurprising to say the least. It is horrific to think what his seceded states would be like if they followed the theocratic nonsense that Paul and the GOP try to spread.
If voters disapprove of a governmental direction, they don't need to secede; they need to vote for candidates who'll approve a different direction.
...Or leave. Really, please don't let us hold you back. I'd suggest Canada, but I don't think they really want you there, either.
And if outvoted they need to accept the will of the people.
"The people" are more important than the will of Ron Paul?
He needed to have been on the ballet, as the candidate of ONE of the many political parties the US actually has, so his followers could vote for him.
Why wasn't he?
In Teabagistan, "The People" omits the 47%. It's kinda like a 3/5ths rule.
Hey Villagers - This is crazy talk that demands to be shut down unequivocally!
Secession is as American as my A$$ wind is sweet and enticing! Paul is just crazy, crazy and a bit crazy some more. Secession from Britain was called the birth of democracy through Revolution! Thirteen ex-colonies tried to make a go of it through a Confederacy, and for about nine years they slogged through "States' Rights" only to give up the experiment and create a Federal Government, yes, Ron Paul, a Federal Government!
The crazy has wed the stupid, gotten a bunch of money, plastered its wedding pictures all over our nation's broadcast airwaves, and now expects us to give the new couple gifts of acquiescence and burden!
Ron Paul needs to crawl back under the rock of crazy yesterday! -Kevo
kev - while I agree with you whole-heartedly, we have to remember that the GOP is the party of anti-education, facts, truth, reality never treads in on their tirade. "Revolution = seceding" that's what helps them to sleep at night...
And if Ron Paul crawls back under that rock, guess what - Rand Paul will certainly crawl out....
Just an observation (before I crawl back under MY rock - it's the busy time of year in my world):
All these secession supporters and crazy talkers who have "signed" online petitions to the government to allow their states to leave the union are without doubt now on FBI watch lists for domestic terrorism and sedition. How dumb do you have to be to leave your email address on a petition site (like whitehouse.gov)? They are NOT instruments for redressing grievance...you have to do that through Congress, or outright rebellion. They are places to register opinions, only.
Zora - Rand has already crawled out, article in todays local paper, Louisville, KY area, says he is thinking about a run for POTUS in 2016. Oden helps us if this clown was POTUS, bad enough he is a senator.
I think we should let a couple of these states secede, with a few conditions; pay back ALL federal monies received in the last 5yrs, all property within the states borders reverts back to the state and the state is responsible for all costs of up keep (ie. highways, national parks etc), NO federal monies to be received no taxes paid, no free travel across state lines, since they are no longer a "state", seceding states must provide assistance to those who want to leave before secession, and last but not least no consideration for re-admittance to statehood for a 10yr minimum.
Funny how most of the states where these petitions come from are states that get back more federal monies than they send, like my state (KY) gets back like a $1.40 for every $1 sent to the fed. gov.
Good luck with being on your own, don't call us we'll call you; well probably not.
If you think the Federal government should be so incredibly limited, doesn't it make you lazy if you want to be part of that government that does nothing?
... I think I just found a new career path. Obstructionism is way easier than actual work.
Yes, but can you lie and cater to idiots enough to get elected to that job?
You know, if any of these states did secede, the first thing they would do would be apply for foreign aid from the US government!
Yeah, good luck with that, I say.
Since Ron Paul, nor his cohorts who repeatedly use this line, don't seem to elaborate exactly WHAT liberties have been encroached or specifically WHAT they are so sick of, perhaps someone could speak for them and say just WHAT all the screaming is about?
All I see are men and women who are pissed off about "loss of liberties" but turn around and demand less liberties, less ACA and contraceptive coverage, less unions, less choice, less gay marriage, less corporate regulation, less taxes for themselves.
It is utterly laughable to think these people could concieve of a government better than the one we have. They want a government that caters to them. The loss of an election by a man who did little more than cater to his base, and the prediction of a win by media that caters to its viewership seemed not to have made much of an impression on these people.
Mostly gold buggery and DEBT! They haven't thought it through.
Any one making plans with others to secede is entering into a conspiracy to commit treason. Traitors are subject to very specific penalties under the law. I call on the police forces and prosecutors around these United States to enforce our laws.
He's a sad pathetic history-challenged Libertarian.
Some of the smartest people I used to know were and are Ron Paul enthusiasts. In the past two years they have also become Doomsday Preppers-type people, constantly buying coins, gold and building storage. I really don't know what to make of them anymore, because their excuse for not meeting up with me for a drink or dinner has to do with THAT.
They never were smart.
Ron Paul is absolutely correct. This nation WAS founded by seceding from England. Furthermore, it is pretty obvious we are becoming increasingly polarized as a nation. Republicans hate democrats, democrats hate republicans, and libertarians are fed up with both. What is the big problem with a state seceding? Surely those who like the people who decided to secede would probably move to that state/nation. Are these not the very same people the rest of you dislike? If they want to leave, you should be saying good riddance, not how dare you!
I am inclined to say "let them secede and take their share of the national debt with them." But really the idea of several disconnected states seceding is simply not practical...and I agree that they would just turn around and ask the rest of us to help them after the first crisis. So I firmly believe they should just shut their mouths and get to work making this country work better. Furthermore, we have the option in this country of being involved in the electoral process by staying involved in the whole process including the selection of candidates.
So Jeff, which states do you think this could actually work? Texas? Ok, so what happens after we close all the military bases in Texas? What happens to all the oil companies faced with either leaving Texas or losing all the federal subsidies they now are getting? How long do you think it will take before their whole economy crashes? So does Texas want to become part of Mexico, or do they just want to become another third world country? You sound like a high school kid that is tired of all the rules placed upon them by their parents and threatens to run away from home. And I was born in Texas. I love Texas, and Texas is one of 50 states that make up this great country. Who said anything about people that I dislike? I may not agree with Ron Paul, or his views, but that does not mean I dislike him, or don't value his contrabutions or opinions, and I certainly do not want anyone feeling they need to leave this country or have their state secede...
I teach at a university in Texas, and my Mexican-American students have been highly amused at this current rhetoric. A few have commented that Texas has been fought over before: they also mention the power and reach of the drug cartels. We might have a lot of guns and macho sorts here, but Mexico has more. Lots more.
They'd find seceding a heck of a lot harder work than the effort required to make America better for everyone.
Go if you want to go, but where will you go to? the property your fat asses are on is the property of the USA and you will be asked to leave...and if somehow you get the land, you will need to start your own military, coast guard, Navy, and you will need to get enough companies into your state to allow as many as possible of your citizens to be able to work. You'll need to pay taxes to the USA for anything you produce and want to sell in the USA, USA passports will need to be returned to the US government, and your new state will have to issue passports to each resident...they will need it if they want to cross the boarder, if they decide to move to the US they will have to go thru the same type of training that any person who want to come here has too....you'll need to pay for your Hosp. Electric, Phones, internet, cable and any other thing that has become second nature....so secede if you want
I think that Maddow makes a good point though, and that is that we are in a much different time now. I think if folks want to leave, they should, and ditch this idea of forging a new nation. Just be an ex-pat.
Perhaps you have missed the point of our "UNION" which is all states united under one government. To suceed from this union is downright stupid. United we stand and divided we fall. Tell Ron Paul to shut up or have him arrest for preaching treason.
Jeff,
as President Clinton said, "I have never learned to hate republicans the way that they hate democrats".
it's true. Democrats don't HATE the way repubs do.
The question of secession was resolved by force of arms many years ago. Do they seriously want it re-litigated?
"If the possibility of secession is completely off the table..."
Well...I think that Constitution thingy actually kinda takes it completely off the table, Ron.
It seems like the last time there was a lot of secessionist talk, the bloodest war in the history of our country ensued.
Additionally, these "secessionists" in actuality are just bad losers. Of course, it is easy to post a petition to a White House website, let's see if these bad losers have the guts to carry their "grievances" forward and actually lobby their state legislatures into supporting their cause.
I just want to watch all the screaming and whining when they have to pay import taxes on all the goodies in all the stores bordering all the gated communities.
Ron Paul Ladies and Gentlemen....as always...Nuttier then Squirrel Poo!
"This country was born through secession."
No it wasn't, you idiot. Rebellion against the crown was a very different concept from secession. The reason is because the colonies were not represented in Parliament, so they had to legal recourse to redress their grievances. The Constitution (which you claim to revere) was a binding agreement between states. All the states agreed to be part of the union and received due representation. Hence, they have plenty of legal options to find the encroachment of liberties you claim to be so worried about. The Constitution is a binding contract that was ratified by all thirteen original states, and by each additional state as they joined. The contract could only be dissolved by the consent of all of the states- a contract is meaningless if one party can unilaterally invalidate it. You libertarians love to talk about contract law, right? How would you feel about, say, me seceding from my contract with Mastercard because I don't recognize the legitimacy of my debt? Hey, it's a deeply American principle, right?
Actually, the Constitution is not a binding agreement between states, it's the people, residing in various states, agreeing to form a national government with the Constitution as a framework on how that government is to operate. There is a difference. And it applies whether the state in question was one of the 13 colonies or joined the Union after the Federal Government was set up.
Calhoun argued the Union was the former and could be reversed by those states, while Webster argued the latter and that, once agreed to, union was permanent. The argument was finally decided in Webster's favor and at the cost of 600,000 men dead out of a total population of just over 30 million men, women and children.
Ron Paul - WATB!
The people filing petitions to seceed are merely exercising the Constitutional Right to petition the government for redress of grievances.
I refuse to let my kid have a cookie.
If he comes back to me with a well reasoned argument as to why he should get one (Dinner is soooo far away and he is sooooooooo hungry), that is petitioning...
If he stomps out of the house threatening to run away because I won't give him a cookie, he is not "petitioning for redress of grievances"...He's being a whiny little brat who doesn't know right from wrong.
They seem a little fuzzy on just what those grievances are, though.
I don't know. Letting Texas go seems like an all around win to me. Republicans wouldn't win the Presidency for 50 years at least. That's a lot of problems solved. Then, if they'd want back in, we could test to see if they'd actually turned blue enough.
But there are many progressives in Texas. As many of them have posted in the past few days, we need to work to turn Texas around, not give up on it. Even though it's frustrating to hear some of the currently-elected Texas politians, we need to be more tolerant than they are.
Let's think this through: Texas votes to secede. I assume they won't hold people in the state (Republic?) against their will, so tens of thousands of current citizens will GTFO. Aside from the problems that will cause to services (not even mentioning those provided by the federal government, but I'm trying to keep it simple here). So the R of T is left with a bunch of Tea-baggers, Republicans and bigots. And tens of thousands of Mexicans who really, really don't like them. And a big southern border. Why wouldn't the Mexicans just leave, you ask?
"Remember the Alamo" indeed. Might not sound as rousing to Texans as it once did.
It's getting to the point the two sides really don't want to be part of the same country. I know I don't. I'm truly sick of their ignorance, stupidity, and desire to live in the pre-Enlightenment. Really sick of it. If this continues, there will be a breakup. Leave them to their idiocy.
What planet are these folks from? Are conservatives really some stain of alien life that has excised conscience and intelligence from their souls? I may be "misremembering" some things, but I thought the question of secession and whether states can leave our union and all of that was settled by some event a while back. Or does the right wing consider the Civil War to be "revisionist" and chooses to believe it ever happened, just like evolution and climate change? They've lost an election but have failed to comprehend why. Maybe it would be better for all of us if they did just quietly leave and form their own country somewhere... pp
Can you blame them for wanting to secede during the "war of northern aggression?" Yes, snark.
Republicans are like a kid that wants to take his basketball home because he's losing. Just because 25,000 (stupid) people signed a petition doesn't mean the majority of the state's residents would want to secede. I guarantee even the reddest of states would have less than 10% of their population vote for secession - especially once they realize they would need passports to visit other states, would have a different currency (any cash accounts would lose money just for the currency conversion), need work visas to work out of country (state), would lose their Medicare, Social Security and other benefits, and have their new country's taxes skyrocket as they would now be responsible for defense, border security and the many other services that were provided by the U.S. government and might still have to pay U.S. income tax if they earned any income from the remaining states (and have no representation for this taxation). Oops, I forgot, these are people that routinely vote against what's in their own best interests, so I guess they won't take any of this in to consideration.
Please go ahead, I double-dog dare you!!! Take your stupid asses and leave. You can misspell your new country! Ron Paul can be the new court jester, your country can have a was with Mexico again and you can have the first ever national prayer-olympics!!
Take your people and go, but leave your land because that belongs to the United States of America.
People more deserving than you can settle where you used to be, people dedicated to being good citizens, like hard-working immigrants.
Rep. Ron Paul would never admit to being a racist, even though he had newsletters with his name on the letterhead that had very bigoted remarks. If he thinks secessionist talk is 'a deeply American principle,' it's clear he was lying to us
. That kind of talk was from the Confederacy that wouldn't budge on freeing the black slaves. It's also clear to me this secessionist talk is racism in reverse since Obama is black. I doubt that talk would be happening if he were white
I really hate to burst your bubble, but the Civil War was not about slavery. I know that the winner of any given conflict tends to influence/write the 'official' history of that conflict, but the facts speak for themselves. Lincoln didn't sign the Emancipation Proclomation till the Civil War had been going for *years*. The war was over, primarily, state's rights and representation percentages in the federal government. The north was by far more populous, and the slaves didn't count as a 'whole person' for voting/representational reasons. Lincoln's reasons for freeing the slaves had less to do with any sort of 'human rights' ideals than hopeful strategic advantages in a war that had dragged on far longer than anyone had wanted it to.
On the other hand, as I am currently living in a nice blue patch in a horribly red state, I really hope that if Alabama decides to seceede, that the federal government will sponsor me to move to a location of my preference in the 'union' - I've been wanting to move to VT for a while now. . .
Just which particular "state's right" did secession protect? Slavery.
Why were the Southern Senators and Representatives worried about losing control of the Federal government? Slavery.
The only reason the southern states fought for four years was to protect slavery. The slaveowners who controlled the politics in those states were faced with two options: either remain in the Union and watch greater and greater limitations placed on slavery until it either disappeared or was declared illegal (with or without compensation) or secede and try to establish an independent country ruled by and for slave owners.
Sorry, the War of Southern Treason was fought, from beginning to end, over slavery.
And Ron Paul is a poopyhead!
As a former member of the U.S. Army I took an oath to protect and defend this country from all enemys BOTH FOREIGN AND DOMESTIC. Sucessionist are guilty of treason and should be treated as such. Anyone stupid enough to listen to Ron Paul should be treated the same. I hold that oath as sacred as I did 40 years ago when I took it.
Larry, on No 21, I wrote the following, I wanted you to see it so, I replied to your original:
Larry Wells said it as simply and directly as possible:
"As a former member of the U.S. Army I took an oath to protect and defend this country from all enemies BOTH FOREIGN AND DOMESTIC. Secessionists are guilty of treason and should be treated as such. Anyone stupid enough to listen to Ron Paul should be treated the same. I hold that oath as sacred as I did 40 years ago when I took it." All of us share and support this oat every time we recite The Pledge of Allegiance.
If people like Robert E Lee were as honorable as Larry Wells, we wouldn't have had a group of officers, put their states before for the Federal Government, a government to which they swore an allegiance. At one point, I thought that Ron Paul had some reasonable ideas (well, a few, anyway) but, I thought the same way about Ross Perot, until he kicked into high gear and showed his true self; he was one crazy SOB and Ron has gone beyond even Ross's brand of insanity. Ron's fifteen minutes should be over but, I feel that way about the GOP and their "junk yard dog", the Tea-liban! . I just can't believe that the GOP's "Divide and Conquer" plan has worked so well; amazing what millions of dollars can buy. Did they accomplished it through the use of subliminal messages, did they bet on the total ignorance and/or stupidity of the American people, is it because they kept us busy worrying about our favorite sports team, caring more about what happens on Sunday than what happened on Nov 6, did they attacked our President with lies and innuendos, it's all of the above! They packaged up all of this and served it up as the most potent shot of " Heroin for the Masses", ever to be used against us! Before The Civil War, people would say, "The United States are....", after The Civil War, people would say, "The United States is....". When I read this, it really hit home. The significance of changing "are" to "is" changed the way that we view our country, this was no small change, it was written in American blood.
Proof, once again, that for all of Ron Paul's faux libertarianism, he's really just an old racist kook who is still mad the Confederate's lost the civil war.
Proof, once again, that for all of Ron Paul's faux libertarianism, he's really just an old racist kook who is still mad the Confederate's lost the civil war.
It's a shame that we cant see what would happen if the union dissolved. Oh wait, we can in 2 ways. Remember Europe pre-EU with different currencies, border wars, smuggling, high taxes, etc. You can also take a look at India where each state has its own language, laws, etc which keep the country of a billion people from having the economy as powerful as China.
So to fly from Florida to Tx we would need a passport? Exchange currency? Get a work permit as with Canada? What a stupid mess!!
You betcha, but your passport wouldn't be half as important as your voter ID card.