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Dear Maddow, I saw where you accused the Hostess Company of giving he executives of Hostess of receiving outrageous raises. So I dug deeper to find out the whole story.
The Hostess people went to the Judge of the Bankruptcy court if they could give raises to theri executives so that wouldn't bolt to other companies. The Judge agreed. The reason the company asked for that was the fact that if the executives left, the company wouldn't have management to take over the company on the other side of the bankruptcy with knowledge of the situation.
Please, when you say something, show both sides of a story so that you aren't corrupting the people that follow you. You have a responsibility as a journalist to tell the whole story.
So management is incompetent, runs the company into bankruptcy twice AND THEY DESERVE A RAISE FOR THAT?
Is that your argument?
That would be impossible Grant. On here there is usually only one side to a story. Thanks for the information. I did not know that. From what I have seen on here, it would appear that the comapny gave themselves big raises out of the blue. Unions need to be busted. They have outlived their purposefullness. They used to represent the worker, now it is politics and dollars. I have not heard an answer to the question of how Hostess could produce a product when the workers were out on strike? Check into some of the Union bennies and demands....that is what is outrageous.
Nonsense. Those executives are the ones who managed Hostess into bankruptcy. Let them bolt. Their "knowledge of the situation" is what caused it in the first place. Hand over control to someone from the rank-and-file with common sense who's worked there a long time. Watch a turnaround happen.
Judges approving this kind of thing is, unfortunately, common in US bankruptcy cases. Kodak is a recent similar example. Keeping the same management (with "retention bonuses") seems to be getting that company more of the same failed approach too.
Rachel and her team responsibly report what's going on. To suggest otherwise is outrageous.
Grant: Hostess is owned by a private equity company, similar to Bain Capital. Perhaps you will recall the private equity strategy, because this is textbook. Your whole assertation about the bankruptcy court is flawed, because private equity executives are not going to jump ship on something they own. Your other assertation about "corrupting people" is silly. Maddow Blog commentors are by and large not sheep, we are vastly different from most Fox viewers. Do yourself a favor and read multiple websites, read your local newspaper, and watch multiple channels. Hostess is counting on anti-union folks to paint a misleading picture of what is really going on, when the truth is less people are eating the poison they produce.
You haven't revealed any contradiction or untold story here.
The report was that the heads of the company gave themselves big bonuses and raises. You dug into the matter and found that they gave themselves big bonuses and raises? So the Rachel Maddow report was wrong because ...???
@pascoguy
The day I heard about Hostess I looked at the snack cak desplay at a gas station, there were a lot of Hostess products. There were no twinkies but a lot of others.
So, to answer your question -- it seems the company COULD produce product while the workers were out on strike.
The purpose of the bankruptcy was to bust the union.
The management now has 2 things: 1) all the cash - this was the reason for the "bonuses;" and 2) the brand-and the recipes.
Having shed all other obligations, they will now sell the brand for more cash. And all y'all will be able to buy all the twinkies and ho-hos and even ding-dongs you want.
And WE will now pay the pensions of all the screwed over workers. They will get nowhere near the amount they bargained for. Remember, there were two parties to that bargain ... but worry not, the terribly abused "management" has been relieved of their obligations which were just too much to bear.
I think the PGBC should put a claim against the brand into the court. Why shouldn't the government get the value to charge against the bill they now have to pay?
One group of employees goes to a judge and say they want more money or they will quit and leave the company. The judge says they can have more money. Now there is not enough money for the rest of the employees and they are asked to work for less. They ask themselves, "What did we do wrong to deserve this"? They decide to not go along and go on strike. The judge was more like an executioner.
I think the PGBC should put a claim against the brand into the court. Why shouldn't the government get the value to charge against the bill they now have to pay?
eruhWHAT, I completely agree.
The so-called "makers" just added another 18,000+ to the "takers" roll, following a pattern that's been prevalent for several years, sadly.
It really bugs me when these CEOs and other millionaire/billionaires talk about "takers and maker" because they think they are the "makers." When did these CEOs and hedge fund managers ever make anything except money? It is the workers on the factory floors that make the products which are then exchanged for money, which by the way is just a credit for goods and services produced and delivered. That money should go back to the workers with a small precentage going to the managers and accountants who arranged for the money to purchase material and equipment for making the produces. The managers deserve to be paid for their services but they do not deserve to be paid for a shoddy product, i.e. running the company into bankruptcy.
bfly--
just so you know ... they are not even "management," ... they are private equity
none of this has to do with anything but money ... the company was profitable, the union took a major hit 3yrs ago ... this is about busting unions ...
Twinkies will be up and running b/4 second quarter 2013 ... $10,000 bet anyone?
Dear Grantnumbers (Member Since: 11/2012Last Seen: 11/23/2012) for whom this is your only posted comment:
So glad you "dug deeper". Wish you could have thought to identify your "source" for this information, though. Particularly since my own research, via reasonably reputable sources like, say, the Wall Street Journal, indicate that those raises were handed out before the firm filed for Chapter 11 (and thus, before there would have been a "Judge of the Bankruptcy Court" from whom to request permission). Consider:
Creditors Say Hostess Pay Is Questionable
I helpfully highlighted a portion of the above quoted text for you. The CEO alone took a 300% raise. If you've found information that suggests that this is all wrong, I welcome you to post again to identify your source(s), so that we can consider its validity and weigh it against the sources we already have.
Otherwise, yours would be a pretty lame attempt at trolling.
Grant-7338766
"The Hostess people went to the Judge of the Bankruptcy court if they could give raises to theri executives so that wouldn't bolt to other companies. The Judge agreed."
The Hostess ceo's resume
Hi , I'm frank , I just ran a company into the ground and bankruptcy twice in 10 years , I was wondering if you have any job openings ??? go romney!!!
I'll bet they had companies screaming to hire them , huh grant?
Have people really forgotten that this was the same situation and same argument that the TBTF banks made to pay multi-million dollar bonuses to the executives that ruined those companies??? No one asked who else would hire them!
this nonsense goes on all the time, and it is a lie and poor excuse for largesse.
And, even worse, they are taking money that rightfully should go to creditors.
I read that Wonder Bread was the largest selling white bread in the USA. How can you have the largest market share and still go bankrupt? (even after the unions already gave concessions). Sounds like massive incompetence to me.
Sounds like deliberate, planned incompetence to me. Given my darkest suspicions about their true aspirations, this outcome may be the all-too competent outcome of what Hostess managment intended all along.
And I can't say I'm shocked that Grantnumbers still hasn't offered to share with us the "source" of his shocking revelations about how management's just been misunderstood. I only hope that, after pulling that information from his "source" he washed his hands carefully before going back to his Thanksgiving leftovers...
The trouble with ignorance is that it picks up confidence as it goes along.
- Arnold H. Glasow
;-)
They are actually the "breakers" and the "fakers" in my opinion.
Isn't it Amazing How Our System ALWAYS Panders to the Wealthy Gomers ? Those Poor-Poor people ONLY making Millions of dollars off of the backs of the people that Actually Do the Work and How Dare the Working people wanting Just a Small piece of the Pie ; Just WHY Is it that the wealthy cannot Give-Up Something financially to the working people that Help to Make THEM Wealthy ; Why is it that THEY Always have to have Increases in salaries and Bonuses And Damned Those workers , The workers Do Not Deserve More , But Deserve LESS , According to the wealthy , They Always Place the Blame on the Working people and the UNIONS , when after All , All that the wealthy are doing is throwing up smoke-screens and placing the blame where it does Not belong , Rather The Blame needs to be put in its PROPER Place , On The Self-absorbed GREEDY Gomers Themselves !
Mud-Slide, you got the right word "Greed."
Surely the union will be there for the displaced workers. Right????
The Right insists on rewarding Job Makers,
Not realizing they're the Job Fakers...
The poor should be leery,
Their Trickle-Down Theory
Is pissing all over the Job Takers...
Lets put the real facts on the table...
1) Executives did increase their salary in July 2011 by changing the formula on which they were paid. Instead of receiving a performance driven bonus tied to the success of the company, they received their total compensation in the form of salary. The total value of this compensation change for the top 10 executives was approximately $5,000,000 annually.
2) In April 2012, the CEO announced that the top 4 executives, himself included, would only be taking a $1 salary until what time the company emerged from bankruptcy. The other 6 top executives all agreed to allow their salary to be reduced to the level prior to 7/11. These salary levels were all in line with what executives made at similar companies and were LESS than what many UNION executives make.
3) The Teamsters union approved the new labor deal and it was the Bakers union, representing about 500 employees, that refused to accept the new deal. The 8% cut that the company was requesting would have saved the company about $74,000,000 in operating expense each year.
Thanks to the bull headedness of the 500 Baker union member, there are now 18,500 people without jobs.
Those are the facts...
just saying...
Here's some facts you didn't reveal:
1) This is the second time the company has declared bankruptcy. In the first go-round, the unions agreed to a 30% wage decrease and a similar pension and benefit decrease.
2) About a month before filing this bankruptcy, the CEO tripled his salary. In fact, the change to executive compensation was the exact opposite of what you describe. Their pay was now to be tied to company performance instead of salary. An executive at a company that has twice avoided giving money to the people and entites who actually are owed for goods and services that have already been provided (this is why a company declares bankruptcy, ya know), I think a dollar is too much.
3) In this mess, the workers were being asked to take ANOTHER 30% decrese in wages and more in pensions and benefits. The execs got their bonuses claiming that the company couldn't afford to lose them. Really? And, oh yeah, they had failed to fund the workers' pension plan for years. How large a cut should the workers take? Would it be ok with you if they earned $1/hr.? (please see 13th Amendment.)
4) The company has now transferred the pension obligation to the PGBC. Payouts now come from taxpayers. At a severely reduced rate vis a vis the rate agreed to in the contract.
5) The private equity firm will now get the proceeds from the liquidation, including the sales of the brands.
Stop trolling around this blog ... Benen's readers actually know what they are talking about.
buh-bye
Actually...as usual, the Liberal does not present the facts accurately.
1) So? Obviously, it wasnt enough to keep the company competitive.
2) The CEO did not triple his salary 3 months before hand, he did it EXACTLY as I described in my post. Don;t believe me...check out Snopes.com
3) The workers were only being asked to take an 8% reduction. Even with this reduction they were making much more than the $1 per hour you suggest. According to SNOPES, the company has been funding the pension at the rate of $100 million per year.
4&5) I have no way to verify if what you say here is correct, but given how wrong you were on #2, it is doubtful that you are right.
When you are able to actually discuss with facts instead of personal attacks, come back to the grown up table. In the mean time, try to come up with some excuse as to why it is better for the 18,000 other employees to be out of a job because of the bull headedness of 500 union members.
just saying..
The story version to protect the innocent.
Years ago Mrs. Hostess became a widow; her late husband was a baker, and ran a good bakery business on the back of property, that had been inherited from a long line of family bakers. Mrs. Hostess wanted to have the children take over the business someday in the future. The home and back property were long since paid off, and she had no debts, and was always careful to set aside pensions for the day when her long and loyal employees needed to retire. However none of the children wanted to be bakers, or managers, and she had the family name and inheritance.
As time went on it was needed to take on a manager, but he had other ambitions, he wanted to taste NY style caraway rye with dill, but knew that if he varied away from the tasty sweet treats the company was famous for that revenues would suffer. Then seeing that the house and assets paid for and that future liabilities were all but perfect he convinced Mrs. Hostess to take out a home mortgage for his rye bread venture. Unfortunately the bread was tasteless because he adapted the same baking process used in what customer wanted 'tasteless white' bread that children teething and old great grandpa could eat with his dentures in. Taking this loss he got in touch with the NY lender who made the loan and even earlier thought of would be nice if he could get a NY style caraway rye with dill bread made. After going over the books, the NY lender came up with an even bigger loan, by padding the first loan as a risk free venture, including the funds that covered the future liabilities, and the capital assets of the corporation and even the home estate. Mrs. Hostess getting on in years forgot she had children, and agreed to the corporate takeover, her manager even retired suddenly. By this time the corporation has so much debt that the only out was to repackage the assets, and negotiate with the workers to draw down wages, benefits, heath care and work for wages low enough that they could qualify for food stamps. This worked, and the company was sold and the lender paid well and left the scene. Once the new company took charge, it realized that it had more debt that could ever be paid, could not find another buyer, or count on the employees any more.
Because the laws make bad management a god given right to exist and not to be liable, because bankruptcy laws are used to leverage more loans, and because the Judge cannot rule against the existing laws. It is not possible to stick the lender with making a bad loan, just as you cannot expect to stick your inflated unsecured mortgage holder with the loss because the same mortgage holder did not assess you property correctly.
This happened 'because it can', there is no law against making bad loans, and the law protects the lender no matter how stupid the loan or business decision was. The Mrs. Hostess case merely means that good business decisions, good loans, good investments and good auditing are the hard ware to make money. Out and out legalized robbery is made legal and that is all …
Rich
Excellent interpretation. I have told StormGuy elsewhere that its the vulture capitalists at work robbing workers legally.
Operative word here is 'outrageous'. Any management team that asks for raises on the order of multiples of their salary during a bankruptcy proceeding amounts to blackmail and makes the request incredible, as in 'not credible'. The judge should have smacked them down like a cockroach scurrying across the kitchen counter.
The judge had no say in the matter because, as Pretzelogic said, the executive suite granted themselves pay raises before filing for bankruptcy.
A little perspective on why there is a fair amount of blame to be spreadhttp://www.forbes.com/sites/susanadams/2012/11/21/why-hostess-had-to-die/
Some companies and unions just can't seem to adapt to current market conditions
the judge is a dumb-ass for agreeing to the raise in the first place. Should have structured it as a retention payment to be collect only at the END of the bancruptcy/buyout. Course he wouldn't know to do this if he was a career politician without ant business experience.
just wanted to share a birthday pic: http://goo.gl/L7jEe . Guess who the birthday boy is.
Please bring to light a situation that seems to be under reported. Pa gov Crobett is trying to sell the multi billion $ Pa lottery system to an overseas buyer. This system was built by Pa citizens for Pa senior citizens*-IT'S NOT HIS TO SELL! The system is very profitable and does not need "fixing" He is basically attempting a "BAIN" maneuver-just because he thinks he "CAN" while no one is looking! HELP! Thanks!
I wish on days that TRMS takes off that you'd air "greatest hits of TRMS" compilations. I realize your stuff is available online, but there are still some of us watching passively out here.
(Okay, to be honest, I'm usually being passive relative to the TV while doing other stuff online.)
Yesterday was Thanksgiving. In the evening I tuned in to watch some MSNBS news and what did I see? PRISON!
I''m sure you could have gotten John McCain to fill some airtime. He's always available for television.
Maybe we could get a drinking game based on a drink every time he says something wrong! Party Time.
You'll need an army of designated drivers.
Taking a drink every time McCain says something wrong would be suicide. Even if you only drank water, you would drown.
Here's an idea for people trying to cut down on alcohol consumption: Resolve that you will only take a drink whenever Mitt Romney says something that is completely true.
Big Gary
I haven't had a drink in 20 years but that idea would guarantee sobriety for life! You might sell it to AA
FairfaxCo - Maybe the programming was designed to remind us to be thankful that we aren't in prison? Or, maybe it's just super-cheap for the network to air (for which they're probably thankful)? :D
Guess the world stops turning and no newsworthy events occur when the MSNBC brass decides to take holiday.
"Lockup" was a regular staple on MSNBC Friday nights and Saturday evenings until a few weeks before the election... I figure MSNBC used it as 'filler' for those days the nightly pundits like Rachel and Ed weren't on... In the weeks before the election, they extended the week, from four days to five, for Lawrence O'Donnell, and repeatd the Friday evening shors, and apparently were surprised to discover that thay actually HAD HIGHER RATINGS than poison documentaries (surprise, surprise...), so "Lockup" is now off Friday's schedule...
I guess they have to show them SOME time...
now that the election is over, i predict "lockup" will go back to its previous airtime, which sucks.
On Thanksgiving evening I tuned in to get some news from MSNBC. And what did I get instead of Rachel? PRISON!
I'm sure that John McCain would have been available to fill a few hours - he loves to be on the television machine.
Depends on if you tune in to get serious news or a comedy show.
i too was surprised at the heavy dosage of prison material for one night. Boring....inconsiderate.
Big God news! Pope declares war on Christmas. Fox news real soon, I'm sure!
http://www.cnn.com/2012/11/22/world/europe/vatican-pope-jesus-book/index.html?eref=mrss_igoogle_cnn
In other news, the Easter Bunny declares Santa Claus to be a total fake.
Thanks for this, BTW.
yipes - sorry for the double post (I like the second version better)
For everyone suffering from LackaBenen, head over to http://wonkette.com/ for some high grade snark.
Don't know if you all have heard about or can shed further light on a Kentucky "homeland security" law that requires:
"The safety and security of the Commonwealth cannot be achieved apart from reliance upon Almighty God as set forth in the public speeches and proclamations of American Presidents, including Abraham Lincoln's historic March 30, 1863, presidential proclamation urging Americans to pray and fast during one of the most dangerous hours in American history, and..."
This "law" came about in 2006 and was written by a "legislator that happens to be a Pastor", this law also carries a penalty of up to 12 months in jail for failure to comply, WTH, talk about infringing on my rights to NOT be bothered by the religuluous sensibilities of others, the nerve! Maybe you can write up or have Rachael address how this really works....
See Virginia, there really is a Christian Taliban here in America....
I wonder how noncompliance of the directive to rely on Almighty God would be detected. Do state governments have the ability to peer into the souls of residents? Is there a Kentucky Inquisition?
According to an article on Alternet, the law related to posting plaques outside the Kentucky Homeland Security offices with the God proclamation. Although somewhat unclear, it seemed to be that failure to post the plaque was what would get you the jail sentence. I live in Kentucky, and although I hang my head in shame at having two of the biggest turkeys in the Senate, we do not have an inquisition. :-)
Am I the only one who realizes that Allen West was used by Al Qaeda, or some other terrorist organization, to torture and turn and innocent man into a martyr? Lets review the facts of the case.
On August 8th, an unknown informant showed
up at the gate and gave information about an imminent attack on fmr LTC West. West was commanded not to leave the FOB until further instruction. One week later, the convoy was hit as stated by the informant, thereby proving that the informant had intimate knowledge about the attack, and (I'd argue) was directly involved.
One week after the incident, the same informant showed up at the gates again and stated that Yahya Hamoodi, an Iraqi police officer, and two others were planning another attack on West. West then organized a "strike team", which went into the Iraq police head quarters, weapons drawn, and abducted officer Hamoodi. He was then taken to a detention center and tortured: beaten and kicked about the head and torso. West entered the room, John Wayne swagger and six shooter replaced by a standard issue 9mm, threatened the man's life, and placed his pistol on his leg, facing the handcuffed man. After the torture and threats failed to produce the intelligence West was looking for, a frustrated West took the man outside and said it was the end of the line, placed his head in a clearing barrel, and fired his pistol "about a foot" away from the man's head. Pleading for his life, the man said he knew nothing. West said 'I'm going to count down from five', at which point he placed the pistol "3 inches" away from the man's head and began counting down. At 0, he fired. The man finally caved and told him everything: that he was in fact a terrorist and that 2 snipers were coming within a weeks time to kill West; unfortunately for West, none of it was true.
Not only was officer Hamoodi not convicted after the torture, mock execution and time in custody, he wasn't even charged with a crime. West on the other hand, was not only charged and convicted, but he admits it before cheering crowds of senior citizens. Whether he should be retired or in prison should still be up for debate. What is not up for debate: a man showed up with knowledge that could only have come from the source, one of the most secretive and clandestine organizations in the terror world, not once, but twice in two weeks time. And that that information resulted in the torture of an innocent Iraqi police officer: someone placed in the untenable situation of protecting his country from the US, themselves and those forces which seek to create chaos and invigorate anti-Western sentiments.
This is one of those situations where people have to ask basic questions and attempt to reason through the situation, because we'll never be able to get the "unnamed informant" to testify. I volunteered for a few campaigns in FL (one should be obvious) and tried to ask West the most important question of all: considering the astounding rise in green on blue violence in Iraq and Afghanistan, do you stand by your actions? Because lets remember, while west was given a slap on the wrist and seat in congress, our soldiers had to stay and confront the consequences of his actions. Lets not be naive, to assert that West's actions occurred in a media vacuum requires the willful suspension of disbelief; because when all was said and done, when officer Hamoodi was finally released and told his story to all those who would listen, what he said, what his story proved was that West was the personification of the Western barbarity, that he would in fact shoot first and... well... never ask later. Because in his mind, it was appropriate to talk flippantly about the incident, as if it wasn't a problem at all, as if it wasn't in fact a violation of the Geneva Conventions or the military code of conduct. I hope some of you talk about this. I haven't seen it anywhere else. I'm glad the election is over, because it was an embarrassment to be a part of. There were so many basic questions that weren't asked, get to talking, get to thinking... Someone let me know if you can find this story or connection anywhere else, I haven't.
Until later,
Peace ya'll...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-cLt9bRnldA
Sorry I couldn't make this video link, you'll have to copy and paste it all by yourself... :( lol... I really tried to make this stuff as easy as point and click...
http://www.aclu.org/files/projects/foiasearch/pdf/DODDOACID000105.pdf
He's an alien, he hasn't been on Earth very long. This is the scarry clown genes, of an opportunist, which are also becoming a dying breed, in light of the election.They all need to put all that free money they're getting, into finding a good psychiatrist.Their egos have definately led them astray. I wouldn't clone that one.
At the dinner table:
Sister-in-Law: I didn't vote for Obama because of Obamacare. It's gonna to cost my family a lot of money.
Me: You know you live in Massachusetts right? If it wasn't bothering you before Obama why is it bothering you now? And your alternative is voting for the guy that basically ushered the law into existence?
Sister-in-Law: (blank stare)
Me: :-)
My sister also complaining about obamacare , their daughter , who is in college , had life saving surgery this summer , they saved money because she was able to be on my sister employers HC plan , they also saved a ton of money on the co pay after she got sick , but they still hate it , all while cashing in on it .... "obama is ruining america!!!" .....facepalm
sorry , but my turkey taste better without rush limbaugh blaring
Indeed, she has also benefited greatly from savings and additional care (prenatal care, prego stuff involving extended stays after childbirth). It's always stunning when people don't let facts get in the way of their Obamaphobia.
Even before the ACA, many corp policies covered children in college. What the ACA did was extend coverage to children up to age 26, even if they are out of college, or didn't go.
Smackdown!
Rachel, lately, the Republicans in DC have not been deserving of many kudos, but can things be changing? I feel you should give some praise to Senator Saxby Chambliss of GA who is breaking with the pack by stating that he will no longer be strangled by lobbyist's Grover Norquist anti-tax pledge and saying, ""I care more about my country than I do about a 20-year-old pledge, If we do it his way then we’ll continue in debt, and I just have a disagreement with him about that." Finally, someone with some common sense on the R team! I'm praying more will follow his lead. Also, can you please explain why a Lobbyist can have so much power to get PUBLICLY elected representatives to sign a pledge HE wrote? I thought elected officials were supposed to pledge allegiance to their country and following that, the people that voted them into office! Thanks so much for your time and hard work Rachel. Besides the Daily Show and The Mentalist, yours is the only other show on TV my husband and I enjoy watching together!!
You can believe Saxby Chambliss about as far as you can see him with your eyes closed. In case you were visiting another planet in 2002, this is the guy who got into the Senate by slandering a decorated war hero who was a triple amputee from the war, claiming that this veteran (Chambliss, BTW, avoided service, like any good Republican should) was somehow a "collaborator" with Al Qaeda.
Sorry, but a piece of something I scrape off my shoe like this worthless Confederate scum has had all the chances he gets. Let him become a "good" Republican (as in: "the only 'good Republicans' are pushing up daisies.") Let the real southern traitors chew him up and spit him out, it's nothing he doesn't deserve.
None of them should be Trusted , haven't We All Learned that by Now ? Anything that they spew is Pure BS - Period !
Dear TRMS,
I admit I look forward to your pop-quiz format, but did not expect homework over the Thanksgiving holiday. Well, I did my best to point out that Obama is turning this deficit thing around. But when someone asked me why the national debt graphs negative areas seemed to coincide with our wars, I found I was not prepared. I gave myself a C-. If I promise to vote every single year and not just in presidential elections, could that go toward extra credit?
Sincerely,
One of our under-achieving Americans.
P.S. Although I am a Democratic Michigander, I was actually happy to see our fellow Texas football team win yesterday. I think they needed a little pick-me-up. As any good American, I believe we must have feelings for everyone. We are all in this together.
Doesn't the McCain/Graham crusade against Susan Rice make more sense as an attempt to support Kerry as the next Secretary of State? Choose your favorite way that this works for them - Brown may rejoin the Senate, a major power center in the other Senate side's foreign affairs is removed, a colleague gets a long-desired position; or add your own. Makes a lot more sense than their blatherings about Bengazi.
We need some more vigorous coverage of the power struggle over how OFA activists ought to be redeployed for the task of governance. Will they be disbanded, or will organizers take their earned place in continuing the fight for progressive legislation? Why did that not happen after 2008- Finney, Sam Stein, Bernstein and Van Jones can comment on air regarding these questions. What role could they have in the future- how could they be deployed in a politically effective way, and what sorts of configurations (eg close tie to the white house) would be politically problematic?
The key battle that will determine the direction of the next two years is not between the parties but between the DC elite based power and grassroots activist forces Obama has at his disposal. Will he redeploy Obama for America so that activists can bring pressure using the so called "outside game" to help the President push his agenda in Washington? Or, now that the activists have performed their required task, will the proponents of the inside game gladly and arrogantly shoo the activists out the door again as in 2008?
Will Obama repeat his disastrous mistake of demobilizing Obama for America? There has been only fragmented explanations why this happened in 2008.
This is crap. Grassroots is relied on to deliver Dem strength to DC, but when it comes time to engage in governance, we are told once again to sit down and shut up?
How is pressure put on House GOP moderates to cross the aisle and vote with Dems on moderate policies? How is it that powerful Dem senators are going to be prevented from watering down any real fillibuster reform. Who is going to put effective grassroots political pressure on them to counterbalance wall street? Who has the organization to do it?
The president does, but only if he decides how OFA should be redeployed. Perhaps it will have to have an arms length relationship to the white house and decide its actions autonomously. That's my view of where it will have to move. Without real autonomy, it will simply be regarded as an arm of the White House. The President must be able to make compromises and state with credibility that he has no power to stop OFA from holding the spears to their backs to sit at the negotiating table.
didn't you get your email?
The GOP goes wherever the money and wind blows. Virtue and integrity has not been their strong points. But the wind is now blowing towards Reason, truth and the fact that this America IS a democracy. Believe me, the GOP has noticed.
Now a complaint: How am I going to get my grade point average up when I must compete with well thought out stuff like what JohnMesserly is turning in? Rachel, can I please sit behind them so I can cheat off them? What do you mean I just lost two credit points for saying that? The GOP would have given me a Gold Star for that idea!
Sure did. Same thing as 2008. Messina wants to know our input. Great- as if they didn't hear the same thing last campaign. We listened, and as Van Jones has often remarked, were told to wait. The action taken by OFA was a few lame "write your congressperson" requests. Axelrod and Messina have gotten earfuls from activists on the outside as well as reformers like Senator Franken on the inside. These polls on what activists want for OFA's future already have an answer: We need leadership. We need to know what the plan is for us to collectively move on. If we know the hill we are taking, we shall do what we can to take it. Otherwise we shall drift away.
Again.
When we get creamed as we did in 2010, the insiders will split who dissed us will eject- Just as Emmanuel did when shrugged his shoulders and went back to Chicago.
Tell me why it will be different this time. Tell me why the OFA organizational talent doesn't get hired away by well paid political consultants who now see not 7 figure but 8 figure compensation due to the donation volume that these techniques can extract from voters.
Until everyone gets jaded about these behavioral psychology tricks being used. It's not like people who sent in their money are stupid about the "letters" being sent. There was good will and a willing suspension of cynicism.
Don't fritter away the good will. You operatives know this is true- it is marketing 101 about brand reputation. Once lost, you will it 100 times more expensive to regain.
Don't blow this.
my q was meant as snark
--- a.
didn't mean to poke u - i agree ... tho i do think to blame only is a little unfair for i know there were times i just sat back and waited
Ok sorry. It's hard to tell. Some people mean such things sincerely due to justified optimism that the poll is a sign of big things to come. It's not baseless dreaming because of what the President said when asked in the Univision interview what he learned in his first term.
I think that I've learned some lessons over the last four years and the most important lesson I've learned is that you can't change Washington from the inside,
You are right that we all had severe challenges in 2008 and everyone had good cause to get distracted. Say OFA in 2008 was made independent of the white house so that the president could be an honest broker and progressives would not feel their leader was selling them out in negotiations. Say in late 2008, there was triumvirate elected by the members of "Organizing for America", and the winners were John Lewis, Ed Markey and Al Franken. Say John Lewis writes a letter starting a fund drive to press for the dream act and progressives show up at all the moderate GOP town halls pressing their representative to live up to their past promises made during the Bush presidency for immigration reform.
I think OFA could have played a much more vigorous part in that. I think we could have advocated much stronger for the public option. Importantly, there would be a mechanism for idiots like Summers to be disproven. Romer argued rightly that the stimulus needed to be huge. Summers cut it in half claiming that the public had not stomach for it. Well- with real poll data from blue dog districts, and will pro stimulus advertisements running, with vigorous proponents in the media pushing it, the Summers gut feeling could be countered with real poll data.
I was busy too in 2008-2010, but honestly if called on by folks like Franken, Lewis, Warren, Krugman or Markey, I would have spent time and money engaged in such campaigns. It is hard to believe that this would have delivered worse results on the public option, a carbon tax, real Wall Street reform, the dream act, and mid term 2010 House elections.
Did you hear that Obama just set a record for the biggest deficit turn around in history? Bigger than Clintons lets build up some money for another war sit.
JM -
i get it -- i really do ... but,
"if called on by folks like Franken, Lewis, Warren, Krugman or Markey, I would have spent time and money engaged in such campaigns"
that's my point
i have a very real, very personal interest in obamacare. altho a branded a dem at birth, i spent money on this man's campaign b/c of this issue. b/c i thought he could get it done. and he did. could it be better? of course. did i want a public option? of course. could he have done more? of course. could john, ed (who, you know, have been around a looooonnnggg time) and al have done more? of course. could we have thrown that conn. sob off the cliff? no.
and did i do more? no. truth is i was too scared it would all go away. but i should have done more. and the lesson from this election, for me, is i have to do more this time.
i have to call my idiot congressmoron 100 times a week. he will never change a vote, but he'll have headache, and tell his friends he has a pain in the ass dem in his district. maybe if there were 49 more who gave him a headache. and gave a headache to 49 more ... maybe boehner would get a headache.
maybe.
that's all ... just maybe
will you help?
p.s. sorry 'bout the caps ... difficult machine
Is there a show tonight? I'm suffering Maddow withdrawal.
Looks like we're gonna have to wait 'till Monday. But, if anyone's earned some time off, I say it's Rachel and the TRMS staff!
;-)
It is not just a matter of intelligence, my friends, that we miss. It the merging of wisdom and caring that makes OUR Rachel unique. Can I say Our Rachel ? In my imagination, she is my better daughter. Sorry to step on her real parents toes here. But I would adopt her in a second. Wow, I got it bad. Well now she can know how the Beatles felt. She is a good kid, just hope the fame does not get to her head.
I read her book. Rachel is both fragile and yet unbreakable. Yes, you can make her cry. And yes, she may be shaken. But she shall not be stirred !! Only thing is, James Bond is a movie and Rachel, well, she is real. And I have seen her stirring drinks. She confuses me.
Ok, my post picture is from 1980, It is just how I feel. . .sorry. . .
How come Fox News doesn't have a Rachel Maddow type journalist on their network?
Ya know, somebody that will devote 16 minutes of a show to really getting inside of an issue and expressing something more than a hopeful wish of a talking point hopefully sticking.
All I see on Fox are just quick little jabs and pokes mixed in with some humor here and there but nothing else.
I mean even if you're gonna deceive, at least put some effort into it. Don't do a quick one-liner filled with bitterness and hatred and then run away.
Well, start with the fact that it isn't, by any stretch of the imagination, "News". An actual "Rachel Maddow-type" would be in the business of providing fact-based opinions, not the kind of propaganda in which Fox specializes.
The trouble with ignorance is that it picks up confidence as it goes along.
- Arnold H. Glasow
;-)
Rachel Maddow has class. Fox News... oh, I think not. What I find very amusing is that when MSNBC has Republican's on their various shows, they are at least given respect and time to answer in regards to the questions asked. On Fox News (also know as the Republican Party News Station) they have such disrespect for any Democrat or other viewpoints. In many instances, I have seen the interviewer and Republican guest gang up on and cut off the Democrat.
Rachel Maddow reports news and very interesting facts that we would otherwise not know. Fox News... they are in their own little Fantasy Island bubble where it's their way of the highway.
Thanks to Rachel Maddow, Ed Schultz and Lawrence O'Donnell... we get the REAL news. MSNBC is great.
Because that would require them hiring someone with a brain, and no one with a brain is dumb enough to be a Republican who is stupid enough to be able to pass the IQ test low enough to be able to work for Faux Snooze.
Guys, you are missing the point of Fox News. Fox News 'business model' is to spoon-feed propaganda to the masses. In depth reporting has no place at Fox News, for one cannot fit 15 minutes of analysis into a spoon and fact generally prove inconvenient to propagandists.
http://chucksmomentoftruth.wordpress.com/2012/11/18/thanksgiving-turkey-mitt-romney/
Sounds like Hostess execs would be well qualified for top posts in the airline undustry!
As I watched the local news coverage of poor people lining up for Black Friday sales, I realized that the Repub's strategy to make voting difficult for the poor didn't work because apparently, it's not that big a deal for the poor to line up for hours! Rich people would never line up for 8 hours to do anything, whether it's for a sale or for voting. I wonder what other obstacles the Repubs think they can create to make voting more difficult for the poor but not for the rich.
;)
The most likely buyer for the brands is a Mexican corp. named Grupo Bimbo, the world's largest baked goods company. (They own Entenmann's and a few other well known American brands.) Hostess turned down an offer of over $500 million from them a few years ago. Today they'll be able to pick them up for less than $150 mil. I wonder if they'll sell Bimbo Twinkies or Bimbo Suzy-Q's. I'm not even sure if you can say Bimbo Ho Ho on TV.
The big story of the day is the Black Friday strikes at Walmart, which hit over 100 cities today: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/11/23/walmart-strike-black-friday_n_2177784.html?utm_hp_ref=black-friday-2012
I think the big story was nobody gave a @!$%#. They just wanted the black Friday deals.
Agree, no one cared. And, it should say something when protestors vastly out weigh employees. http://news.investors.com/ibd-editorials/112312-634523-union-walkout-at-walmart-is-big-failure.htm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_8it5vIiAdA
Interesting and informative take on the federal deficit. I too wonder how anyone thinks deficit spending is OK.