Associated Press
Last year, congressional Republicans, for the first time in American history, said they would crash the economy on purpose unless their non-negotiable demands were met. The result was a brutal-but-easily-avoided debt-ceiling crisis, which did lasting damage.
Republican leaders vowed, even at the time, to deliberately create the same crisis again if given the opportunity. And sure enough, the hostage strategy has begun anew.
President Barack Obama made a demand of House Speaker John Boehner near the end of their first White House meeting on the fiscal cliff: Raise the debt limit before year's end.
Boehner responded: "There is a price for everything."
Let's be perfectly clear about this. John Boehner knows the debt ceiling has to be raised. He's said, out loud and on the record, that if the debt limit isn't raised, it would mean "financial disaster" for the global economy. Boehner has also said, out loud and on the record, "Whether we like it or not, the federal government has obligations and we have obligations on our part."
And while we're at it, let's also not forget that during the Bush/Cheney era, Boehner routinely voted to increase the debt ceiling, without conditions, as has been the bipartisan norm since the law was created in 1939.
In other words, the Speaker of the House knows he's playing with fire; he knows the consequences would be catastrophic; and knows he's being a shameless hypocrite ... but he just doesn't care. The full faith and credit of the United States is on the line, and he'll throw it all away, deliberately, unless Obama meets undefined demands.
"There is a price for everything"? There doesn't have to be a price for everything. This is only true once hostage takers decide to take the hostage and demand a ransom. U.S. policymakers who want what's best for the nation have always resisted the urge to play such a dangerous and radical game, but the radicalized Republican caucus is playing by a new set of rules.
Boehner threatened to hurt all of us, on purpose, in 2011, and now he's prepared to do it all over again. Why this isn't considered a shocking political scandal is a mystery to me.
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Obama was reelected. He isn't running again. The next congressional election is in 2 years. Boehner will be blamed if the world economy is harmed.
My attitude is, we don't negotiate with hostage takers.
That said Obama should keep the lines of communication open with Boehner. He should keep them open loudly so everybody knows that Boehner and the House Republicans are responsible for the meltdown. When Boehner comes around Obama should be ready to move on an moment's notice.
Exactly. They shouldn't have "negotiated" the first time that republicans tried this, but it's time to end this hostage-taking. Either the "trillion dollar platinum coins" or the 14th amendment routes would suffice. Further, make it clear that republicans already voted to spend the money and they better darn well make the payment that they committed to.
What do they have to do for the public to see that Republicans don't care about the country?
You would think they would have gotten the message after losing 11 seats to the Democrats after playing this game last year... let them try, it will ultimatly fail and the GOP will lose control of the House, Senate and the White House for the forseeable future.
Stupid Republicans...we need the money now!! Tax those losy rich MORE!!! Let our grankids pay off the debt later!
No matter how many times it is said, you just can't let this simple fact sink in eh? The debt ceiling, is for paying bills Congress already spent. It has nothing to do with how much money we spend in the future. It is the payment due on a credit line. You cannot refuse to pay for something you already purchased. <<<<<<<<DO YOU UNDERSTAND YET>>>>>
Boehner knows, the bigger the lie, the more believable it is. The problem with the ignorant masses is that just because "raise" and "debt" is in the same sentence, they automatically think it's bad and that the simple answer should be "no". What they don't understand what a financial catastrophe it is is the debt ceiling is prevented from being raised.
I agree. You don't negotiate with terrorists, but the problem with that is that you'll need to be willing to let the hostages die in a scenario like that. I'm concerned that there isn't a Steven Seagal Saves-the-Day solution to this terrorist scenario, so what happens to the economy?
AnnaBe:
Unfortunately, we may have no choice but to pay the consequences of letting the GOP dig it's own grave. If that means our credit rating gets downgraded again, or we're thrown into another recession/depression, then maybe that is what has to happen for the American people to wake up and realize that the GOP is no longer a party of patriots - but rather a party of traitors.
Only THEN can we finally be done with them and allow a new opposition party consisting of what is left of the sane Republicans (like Megan McCain) and independents to arise. And while that new party is being created, the Dems can hold majorities in both houses of Congress and in the White House so that they can enact whatever legislation and tax laws necessary to put us back on the right track and reduce the deficit without harming the poor, elderly, sick and unemployed.
There may not be a Steven Seagal hero to save the day in this real-world scenario, and yes, we may have to let the hostages (our economy, primarily) die in order to save the nation from continuing to be stagnated by a party that no longer gives a damn about anything - including the country they claim to love - except wielding power.
This isn't a "Shocking political scandal" because this is what has come to be regarded as Business as usual. Welcome to the new normal.
(Thank you cards should be sent to Newt Gengrich and Tom DeLay)
It is a terrible situation when a few extreme members of the Republican party can hold the country hostage for years. Why is this allowed to continue? This is purposeful, damaging obstructionism and it needs to end.
The T-party is the worst thing to happen to this country. This needs to end. These people are clueless and are doing great damage to the country.
Jerold Nevada,
You are a sick person and I want you to stop trolling me or I will report you to Newsvine.
Shorter Boner: Same whore, same trick, but we'll negotiate the price, again.
The price should be Obama says no to Boehner and the Senate sends the House a tax cut bill for the middle class in January. Then maybe the Republicans will be more amenable to negotiations. Beat them over the head with a club and then negotiate the terms of the Republican surrender.
It's time to get this over with once and for all: either the 14th Amendment or have the mint produce the required number of $ trillion coins. No more of this stupid shhit.
Obama does hereby promise to serve only two terms.
There's yer freakin' compromise.
That Politico article is disgusting. It paints the debt ceiling standoff as a noble struggle between two principled opponents.
Instead of what it is: beleaguered pragmatists fending off radical nihilists.
It's further proof of the GOP's ploy of breaking government in order to prove government doesn't work.
Someone is surprised that the far right disinformation project known as "The Politico" dispenses disinformation? Only those who can pass the IQ test low enough to work in D.C. believe that product of Josef Goebbels' fevered imagination is a "news" site.
Man, it is almost impossible to have an honest debate, collective national concern or even a sensible policy proposal in our post-fact-false-equivalency-political-world!
Such has been the body politic, as the obstructionists have made it!
Calling all social media experts: Get the word out that the Republican brand is not healthy for our nation, our children, and our children's children! -Kevo
At what point is it going to become socially acceptable for Democrats to use the word "treasonous" to describe Republican policies. I don't know what other word more accurately describes an institutional policy to hold the nation for ransom.
I look at our 2 party system as I would an abusive relationship. The abuser (Republicans) and the abused (Democrats) keep playing the game. The abuser does wrong and the abused kicks them out, only to forgive them and let them back in (ie. compromise) After awhile it is time for the abused to say enough, and start the divorce proceedings and be rid of the abuser for good.
Democrats, STAND YOUR GROUND.
But, Republicans are so judicious and reserved about using that word to describe Democrats!
For the past four years the republicans have done nothing but obstruct, yet they seem to be able to do it and get away with it. It doesn't speak to highly of the electorate. I think that the President has the upper hand this time. I hope he stands firm. I don't think the President should compromise. Let the tax cuts expire and then cut expenditures as is mandated. The Democrats need to have the guts to stand up and be counted.
The electorate knows exactly what's going on. That's why Obama one decisively despite a terrible economy, why the Democrats increased their margin in the Senate despite defending twice as many seats as GOoPers, and why the House Dems improved their numbers and won decisively more popular votes than GOoPers. The only reason the Dems didn't take the House was partisan gerrymandering at the state level designed specifically to make it harder to elect Dem reps. There's only so much you can do to recover in just two years when an anti-democratic junta takes over an entire branch of government and is then backed up by anti-democratic state legislatures in a redistricting year.
He had a much stronger hand before the election -- today, it's almost two years before the members of the House face any accountability to the electorate. Of course, their funding sources are another matter -- they're paying attention today.
The president does have the upper hand, but I do not believe the T-Party Republicans in the house will behave any differently than before. Because of their intransigence, I see going over the fiscal cliff as the best, and perhaps only, alternative.
The President and all the Democrats must stand firm and be resolved that it is the people's will that they end the reign of Grover Norquist and the House Republicans.
We elected them to do the will of the people. We pay them well to do it. Now DO IT! Our economy and our struggling middle class depend upon it!
Most people in the country these days would just like to see these loud mouths in Congress shut up, get all the deal done within the next week, then go home and leave us alone!! Unfortunately, they like seeing themselves in print and on TV and will draw this out as long as possible.
@afairhope - Yes!
Bipartisanship is impossible. The good news now is it's not required.
This stuff drives me nuts:
"But while Democrats have been explicit about what they want from the GOP – a higher top income tax rate on high earners – Republicans have been vague about what they want in return."
We have the higher tax rates! We don't need to negotiate them away. Give them nothing in return. It's like we own Boardwalk and Park Place with hotels, and the Republicans have landed on Boardwalk and owe us $2,000. They've lost that, but they're trying to say, "Oh, OK, we'll give you that $2,000, but you need to give us the railroads and the utilities."
No, no, no.
They'll say, OK, just the railroads.
NO!
Just the utilities? NO! Water Works?
Give them nothing!
We should be screaming this. We don't have to give them anything cuz we've got what we want in the bag, it's the law. The Bush cuts were designed to go away. They are going away. Don't cave and give Republicans something. Wait until Jan. 3rd and negotiate from a position of strength.
I say give them defense cuts. Give them a revision of cap gains/interest to income just like wages. Cut charitable giving as a deduction if more than $50K. No deductions for Olympic horses. Close loopholes in corporate welfare and giveaways. Give them tariffs on outsourced jobs and imported goods. Give them a lot of this sort of thing, but hold the line on social programs including Medicare, Medicaid, school lunches, head start and, of course, social security. Plenty of things to cut before going after social programs and middle class deductions like mortgage interest. The rich are perfectly capable of figuring out how to make more money if they feel the need -- and some of those ways will actually create jobs as a side effect if other avenues are penalized. Limit federal help to states at the amount each state pays in taxes to the feds; and tie aid to state self-help. No military bases in states not pulling their weight. None of these demands are unreasonable to me -- but make the GOP scramble to fight each one. Any of these can be negotiated a bit-- maybe -- if the GOP will cave on tax hikes.
Yes, I know the GOP plan is to starve the government so social programs fail -- but put everything else on the table first. "Starve" the rich before the poor. The rich will survive; the poor will not.
History tells us that if the wealthy (read powerful) don't heed the poor, consequences can and do happen. In the 1770s The French elite was plundering the country to build Versaille while the people starved. The resultant rebellion ended the monarchy. In 1918 The Czar of Russia and the royal family (and wealthy) lived in ultimate luxury while the troops (and citizens) starved. Enter Vladimir Lennon. In 1932 Germany was being crushed not only by the global depression but reparations payments to the victors in WWI, The people were starving and unemployment was sky high.... Welcome to Adolf Hitler... Consequences DO happen, We the people of the left need to stop the tyranny and treasonous obstruction from the right before it is too late to stop the consequences.
Defense cuts are an absolute must. Every time repubs look for waste and fraud, they immediately look at social programs, despite the age-old fact that the biggest source of waste and fraud is in the Pentagon budget. How many times do we have to hear about weapons systems that end up far more expensive, less capable and behind schedule before someone actually does something? For example, the F-22 fighter is plagued with issues that cause its pilot to pass out, and despite billions spent on the plane and countless resources thrown at this particular problem, a solution has yet to be found, and the Pentagon has had to restrict the plane to areas near airbases so a pilot feeling woozy can land before he passes out and crashes. The F-35 fighter has more than its share of problems, and the carrier version is currently unable to land on a carrier because of an issue about where the arresting hook is located on the plane. Apparently this issue will be expensive and time-consuming to fix. There is the case of the Navy's new Littoral Combat Ship, with one of the two different designs being so poorly designed and constructed that it leaks and has already burned out an expensive set of engines, among other difficulties. The list goes on forever, but still, despite literally tens and tens of billions of dollars wasted on poorly-designed/built weapons systems, there is no outcry from ANY politician that means a hill of beans. Defense contractors continue to get paid and make handsome profits for selling products of such shoddy design and workmanship that, if they were consumer products, would be roundly rejected by consumers and pulled off the market. Sure, I'll look at cuts to social programs....but not until an axe is taken to the Pentagon budget. Repubs have signalled that will not happen, as they have now said they will not accept the defense cuts they agreed to during sequestration.
The Democrats are in a great position: they don't have to do anything until after the first of the year--AND THEY SHOULDN'T. As of January 3, they will be in an infinitely better negotiating position. Not only will there be more Dem Senators and House members, but the tax rates will already have gone up and the spending cuts Republicans hate most will have already (at least technically) taken effect.
Despite (or maybe because of) the blather coming from the corporate community and the right wing, there is no good reason for the Dems to rush into anything. They certainly shouldn't give away the store by agreeing to major cuts in Social Security, Medicare, or Medicaid.
Show some strength, guys. Hold the line. Let the Republicans act like shortsighted fools.
A point to consider is that House Speaker Boehner is currently a lame duck. Yes, he was re-elected to his House seat, but he is still dependant on House Republicans to re-elect him as Speaker, in January. He seems to be trying to appease the Tea Party radicals, while bluffing the more moderate members to stay the course. Based on his track record as Speaker, if I were an incoming, or returning Republican member, who thought that a more pragmatic, more moderate GOP was my future, I'd be searching for a new Speaker who could lead bipartisan efforts, not lead an obstructionist war on my country.
Making Boehner the point man for the failure to obtain a deal will not necessarily bring a more moderate Republican speaker. It is unclear who would be the next speaker since there would be a major power struggle between the Tea Party faction and the moderates. However, the disarray in the Republican party would be an opportune moment for the Dems to move legislation.
We saw the economic damage that occurred the last time when they stalled on raising the debt ceiling and it seems they are willing to use that as leverage again to try and jam in a tax rate cut for the the wealthy. Time the elected politicians put aside party politics and put country first and do the right thing. let the tax cuts for the middle class stand and raise the taxes on the top 2%, raise the debt ceiling and stop holding the american public hostage.
Not without concessons of drastic and necessary reforms to medicare and social security and drastic cuts in the budget. Oh yeah. Obama doesn't present budgets. That way you can spend what you want. Even though the Constitution requires a budget we don't have one. Oh yeah. Obama skirts the Constitution when he wants his way. Almost half of the voters voted for fiscal responsibility. That requires cuts that the dems are NEVER for. Show us some cuts and reforms and then maybe there can be some compromise. The dems are never willing to give up anything.
What's the problem with Social Security?
I can't find that section. Would you please point us to it?
Dems do not need to compromise anything. After January 1, the tax cuts go away and the sequester begins with cuts to domestic and defense spending. Where is the Republicans leverage? Oh wait---they don't have any. Holding middle class tax cuts hostage is not leverage since it will cost them votes in 2014. That leaves Republicans empty handed and no real bargaining chip to get concessions.
Social security is solvent and doesnt need to be touched as specific $$ are paid into it from earnings by tax players. What they do need to do is raise the limit and make all income has a social security tax
I couldn't find any Budget requirement in the Constitution either, but I was disheartened to read that Tax laws can only originate in the House. The Senate may only amend what the House has passed. No wonder the GOP has tried to make Speaker Boehner into a Prime Minister. ( Didn't workout well for Gingrich )
For pete's sake, @jes33 -- the President's Budget has been posted online at whitehouse.gov for the better part of this year:
The President's Budget for Fiscal Year 2013:
http://www.whitehouse.gov/omb/budget
And this one is especially for the endless bogus talking point about Dems not being willing to give up anything -- this goes back to July of last year -- were you out of the country when the Prez offered Boehner, Cantor, Ryan, et al. $4,000,0000,0000,0000 in spending cuts?:
White House Grand Bargain Offer to Speaker Boehner Obtained by Bob Woodward:
http://presspass.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/11/11/15089281-white-house-grand-bargain-offer-to-speaker-boehner-obtained-by-bob-woodward?lite
jes33 - Does this count as a budget presented by Mr. Obama? If not, why not? Is this like the birth certificate issue, where whatever is presented is not good enough?
http://www.whitehouse.gov/omb/budget/Overview/
Wasn't there some part of the agreement before when the Republicans realized that outside their bubble they were really hated for what they did, that they gave the President the ability to raise the debt ceiling, that they could piss and moan about it but it would still be done?
Refresh my memory here.
But further proof to let the Republican huff and puff for the next five weeks and ignore them, let them get hysterical, then push them "off the curb" and let them figure out what they did to themselves come January.
@TC: Back then they still believed that Obama was a one term President. If they had gotten the election results they believed were their due, then the incoming President, and Republican controlled Senate could all drink the Coolaid together. They are still suffering from cognitive dissonance. Ask Einstein, and I bet he call the GOP an asylum for the delusional.
It's not Coolaid, it's Haterade.
JANE, #15.2,
GOOD ONE, and they've drunk way too much of that "haterade"!
After the last debacle, Boehner boasted, "I got 98% of what I wanted." Given that his shenanigans got our credit downgraded, it is in America's best interest to disappoint the man this time.
Since it appears there are no adults on the repub side to negotiate with, I say we just let the car drive over the fiscal cliff. The damage done by the kind of concessions that repubs want are worse than anything the end of the Bush tax cuts would do, and the sequestration may be the only realistic chance to make the needed cuts in the defense budget. Let it happen, and then let's see the repubs again say that they are putting the money back to the Pentagon, and shifting the entire sequestration cuts to domestic spending, as they were saying months ago. It will be a truly dramatic demonstration to the voters that a deal with repubs is impossible, because once they are forced to live up to what they agreed to in writing, they will immediately change the rules and ignore their written promises.
The across the board sequestration and the lack of leadership could cause damage in first part of 2013 such that even if DC acts to reverse it in weeks, the pain may last a decade or more. The last budget Congress gave Hoover to sign, FY1932-33, killed the banks in Feb 1933. FDR and the next Congress spent nine years trying to restart the economy, and it still took WWII to do the job. Post Hiroshima a real war is off the table.
PS To all Iraq and Afganistan Vets, Tthank you, I know that what you did was REAL. Thank you, again. By "a real war" I mean a war that kills unemployment by sending every able bodied male over 17yo overseas, regardless of family wealth,and that redirects half of the nation's ability to produce food and manufactured goods to a mass invasion.
The "pain," such as it is, won't last more than a few weeks. Changes to the tax code won't take effect until January of 2014, and the spending cuts can be reversed whenever (of if) Congress decides to reverse them. There is absolutely NO reason for the Dems to cave in to the Republicans to avoid this faux disaster.
@mpguy the tax rates may be the Tea Party rally point but a partial government shut down due to sequester is the real weapon the GOP is pointing at Obama and the country. Shutting down USPS, for instance, would not only disrupt business that uses it for parcels (while also choking UPS), all my utility bills come in the mail, some of them I pay by mail. If the check is in the mail for six weeks, we have a repairable problem, short term, but we also have a paradigm shift where businesses are forced to find permanent substitutes, likely at higher costs. The Post Office is already reporting a loss of volume because of its impending default on future pension costs. At some point USPS becomes unviable and our nation's investment in it is lost. Also who would try to book a vacation if we can't predict the next time Congress shuts down Air Traffic Control, or TSA? The Tea Party's fantasy is shutting down IRS, but how about the USDA, Coast Guard, Customs and Immmigration (no imports). Shutting down the US government should be un thinkable, but if the sequester hits who will trust DC? Meantime the GOP and Fox will be explaining why it was all Obama's fault for getting uppity and thinking that he is in charge.
We don't negotiate with terrorists.
buzzkiller, #18
And I hope and pray we don't break that rule this time! We can't lose this fight.
The T-Party reign of terror has to end.
Call him on it.
Somebody help me out here. If the Bush tax cuts go away and are replaced by nothing at all, and sequestration takes place, do we still even NEED to raise the debt ceiling? Huge cuts in spending combined with massive new revenue. Has anyone done the math to determine if the debt ceiling would even need to be raised if we go over the cliff.
The debt ceiling raise is required for us to pay bills we already owe, the notion that we can cut spending and thus not raise the debt is common, but false. The accounting doesn't work that way.
This is why, btw, that the debt ceiling is a bad law that should be done away with. It serves no purpose. If congress authorizes spending, that should be taken as de facto approval of the spending. Breaking it out into two votes, one to authorize the expenditure and a second to pay the bill, is asinine. No other democracy in the world does this.
When it was nothing but empty political drama, it really didn't matter. If a President had taken it seriously, he would have refused to sign appropriations that didn't include sufficient debt ceiling increases to cover them.
Obama learned that lesson the hard way. Unfortunately, he didn't apply it.
I wan this man to survive on my pension and the one third of my social security I get.I'm tired of these people, with good salaries and much in the bank, tying up our government so that it doesn't work efficiently. Let them live like us , not for a while, but there rest of their lives.
Time for the Dems to hold the Repubs to ruining the Country. There is a role for the minority part in democracy. But they are dictators working as the puppets of the 2%. Time to open a can of Whip A$$ on the Repubs or just go home Dems.
GOP= Terrorists. Traitors causing treasonous acts. Put them all in jail. When the DNC didn't go along with GW, those words were used against the DNC. Years later, we find out that GW/Cheney and the GOP were performing treasonous acts against the people of the United States by misleading us so they can LOSE 2 trillion $ through the Pentagon. Hmm, who has friends at the Pentagon? The poor? no.... The wealthy? hmm. When GW was 1st elected, I told friends that he is going to be the FIRST Billionaire President. I was WRONG, he is probably a trillionaire. I wonder where he hid the money.
Boehner should be arrested and jailed like any other thug.
There is a good reason why the FBI has a policy against paying ransom to extortionists and kidnappers. Because it sets a dangerous precedent as we are seeing with the never ending debt ceiling hostage negotiations. The Republicans put a time limit on the Bush tax cuts for the rich because they knew it was a political time bomb set to detonate after 10 years that they could use to extort ransom demands from the country and it worked so well that they decided to use the debt ceiling to shake down the country on a yearly basis. In the words of Krugman, "That's a nice country you have there. I'd hate to see anything happen to it."