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First up from the God Machine this week is an unexpected twist in a tiresome annual exercise -- the time of year in which the right says the left is waging a "war on Christmas." This week, one of the leading culture warriors on the subject, Fox News' Bill O'Reilly, presented an argument I hadn't heard before.
"Christianity is not an organized religion.... Christianity is a philosophy. You don't have to believe Jesus is God in order to admire his view on life.
"Millions of Muslims admire Jesus as a prophet. In fact the United States was founded on Judeo-Christian philosophy, that's what shaped our constitutional tenets. Again if you are stone-cold dumb and don't understand the difference between an organized church and a philosophy, I cannot help you."
The conservative host added that those who believe Christianity is a religion "are so stupid, it's painful."
Putting aside the fact that our constitutional tenets are entirely secular, what's striking here is that it's highly unusual for a socially conservative culture warrior to insist, proudly on national television in pre-written remarks, that Christianity is not a religion.
Every year, I think this annual exercise can't get sillier. And every year, it gets a little worse.
Also from the God Machine this week:
* TV preacher Pat Robertson this week came out against young-earth creationism, putting him to the left of Sen. Marco Rubio (R-Fla.)
* Just as the Ugandan parliament again mulls a draconian law that would brutally punish gay people, the country's leadership is drawing praise from Family Research Council leader Tony Perkins.
* In Northern Mali, religious fundamentalists have banned all music and exiles have described "a shattering of their culture, in which playing music brings lashes with whips, even prison time, and MP3 and cassette players are seized and destroyed" (via reader R.B.).
* A federal judge this week dismissed "a lawsuit filed by a church coalition seeking to challenge Santa Monica's ban on nativity and other seasonal displays in public spaces" (via reader R.P.).
* And the American Family Association's Bryan Fischer said this week that if Americans use fewer fossil fuels, it's an insult to God.
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I like this perspective. It's not the end all be all, but it is a better point of view than an O'rielly. And I particularly like your notion that "Mohamed was Christ's brother.' I agree with that. He is, and yes, "he would NEVER" harm him.
So if Christianity is not a religion, does that mean they'll start paying taxes? Help plug our deficit.
O'Reilly rather surprised me in this video. For decades, fundamentalists have thrown around the bromide, "Christianity is not a religion, it's a relationship." This maxim is based on the assumption that the term "religion" refers to man-made institutions and rules. The maxim also assumes that the idea behind Christianity is to bring Jesus into your life as a personal friend (a notion that is actually of fairly recent vintage--it only dates back to the 18th century).
I see that on Nov. 28, O'Reilly was telling his audience, "They ['secular progressives'] don't like public displays of Jesus because Christians believe he's God." Twenty-four hours later, O'Reilly is saying that Christianity is a "philosophy," and that you need not believe that Jesus is God. His audience may pressure him to "clarify" that statement.
Actually, Christianity is not a religion per se. It is the practice of Christianity that's a religion. Practicing Christians belong to religious organizations, mostly Protestant or Catholic. You can be Christian without practicing a religion. Christianity is the belief or philosophy of Christ and the practice of Christ[ianity] is the forming of an organized religion. So, in that respect, O'Reilly is correct. But he's still an ass and lives on Bull@!$%# Mountain.
No, it's really not.
I can call myself a tree. It doesn't mean I am one. If you claim to be a Christian, but you don't accept the entire bible as the word of god, you aren't one. If you don't accept god as the single supernatural being that created this world, you aren't a Christian.
Christianity has never been to merely believe that a strictly human Jesus had some great advice. Moreover, he often spoke about belief in his one god. That leaves philosophy behind and crosses into religion. It's no longer merely a rational pursuit of wisdom when you start advocating the worship of a supernatural being.
Copy paste from Dictionary.com. Notice #2! Also both "religion" and "philosophy" share the word "tenet" in the Thesaurus. By calling Christianity a philosophy, does not Mr. O'Reilly dilute the message? Also by changing the message of Christ from its universal classification, does that not equate Christ -the Son of God- to the same status as Plato or Aristotle, who were definitely did not hold the status of "Divine"?
re·li·gion
[ri-lij-uh n] Show IPA
noun
1.
a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose ofthe universe, especially when considered as the creation of asuperhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional andritual observances, and often containing a moral code governingthe conduct of human affairs.
2.
a specific fundamental set of beliefs and practices generallyagreed upon by a number of persons or sects: the Christianreligion; the Buddhist religion.
3.
the body of persons adhering to a particular set of beliefs andpractices: a world council of religions.
4.
the life or state of a monk, nun, etc.: to enter religion.
5.
the practice of religious beliefs; ritual observance of faith.
EXPAND
Yes. Also, philosophy is, by definition, the pursuit of rational truth. Worshiping the supernatural can result in philosophy in that it can include seeking an explanation for existence and reflecting on the nature of our reality. But that doesn't eliminate it's religious aspects. Philosophy also requires logical reasoning, rather than faith.
However, Jesus very decidedly advocated the belief in one supernatural god. To adopt that philosophical explanation for our creation is also to adopt a religion. To adopt his premise that you must believe in his god in defiance of evidence against his existence is to leave behind philosophy and land squarely in the realm of religion and faith.
Jesus said no one can come to "the father" without him. He casts himself as a religious figure, divine, and worship of him is a path to an afterlife. That's not philosophy. You can't separate his analysis of the origin of existence from his religious explanation that it's supernatural. He also said his message isn't one of peace, that it is one intended to divide. You're either in or your not. You believe in his god, his own divinity, the perfection of the bible, or you don't. You are a Christian or you are not.
Moreover, whatever strictly philosophical or moral "teachings" he offered were not his own. "The golden rule" has been found in cultures that predate him. He borrowed common wisdom and repackaged it with a supernatural god's stamp-of-approval.
I always included Jesus, in my prayers when I prayed everynight to God. I end all my prayers with I ask this through your sun, past heaven and even higher, Jesus Christ. I've just made friends with all my enemies, they no longer scare me. Forgiving sometimes isn't easy. But, I have been truly blessed. God let's me speak directly to whomever I choose, I am no longer bashful or shy. I have conquered "Pride" and I really have no use for it. I'm happy where I stand. I'll always be happy as long as I can still play with God. Jesus and I are like peas and carrots.
Bill O'Reilly...assholier than thou?
In Northern Mali, religious fundamentalists should realize that music is sanctioned in the Old Testament, the source of Islam.
Bryan Fischer can't beleive that A) we should use buried fossil fules and B) the earth is 6000 years old.
Hi All- Help me understand, because I'm not particularly religious. Couldn't you say Christianity IS a philisophy, and, for example, being Catholic is a religion? I'm sure no fan of O'Reilly. Just need some clarification.
Christianity may or may not be a philosophy. Discussing that may or may not be worth the time and effort.
O'Reilly, Coulter, Limbaugh, anyone who works for Rupert Murdoch is willing to do or say anything for money. There's a word for someone who will do or say anything for money.
O'Reilly not only doesn't believe Christianity is not a religion, he doesn't care. His goal is to increase his ratings. He feels no responsibility for his words.
No. Jesus's teachings were supernatural in nature. Philosophy is a pursuit of knowledge of our existence through reason, rational thinking, and logic.
If you seek to explain our universe with the "divine," as Jesus did, you cross into religion and faith. He even draws a line in the sand, saying his message is one that is intended to divide people. 'You're with us or against us.' You believe in his one, supernatural god, his own divinity, the truth as given in the bible, etc, or you don't. It's all or nothing.
Denominations are just different attitudes on the issues beyond those. Some argue that, while the bible is the word of god and all absolute truth, that their god is speaking in metaphor and allegory. Other denominations believe the bible is literal and events are depicted exactly as they actually happened.
Pardon the sports analogy, but it's the best analogy coming to mind. Say you and a friend both have a favorite football team. You think their offensive line is what makes them great. Your friend says it's their defense. But you both still have the same favorite team, even though you have slightly different perspective on the details.
What separates religions is their overarching belief system. The god(s) they worship, the origin story, the divine powers the god(s) has/have, the afterlife promised, etc. Christians have those shared beliefs across denominations.
BillO is arguing you and your friends have different favorite teams because the two lines hear different messages from the coach, so it can't be the same team. All of the players must be on the exact same page, hearing the same message, and applying it identically for them to be the same team.
I've decided this year to ignore the nimrods. F* 'em. O'Reilly etal make outrageous statements and lies, get called on it, blame the 'lamestream media', pretend it's all about SOMETHING else and whine whine whine. This year I have more important stuff to think about, the government has more important issues to deal with and the media would do well not to go chasing these obvious lies. Use the space to promote issues that actually affect our lives.
Actually, those Fox viewers who are conservative evangelical Christians who listen to O'Reilly would half agree with him - Christianity ISN'T a "religion." But at that point they would end the statement differently: "It's a relationship." That is, Christianity is supposed to "emerge" within the life of a believer as a result of their having a "saving relationship with Jesus the Christ." I would guess that O'Reilly doesn't have such a relationship, and therefore he doesn't understand the true nature of Christianity beyond its philosophical/theological/ethical content; but that is the problem with a lot of people who put their political and social conservatism above the relational aspects of their lives. Such people then become easily manipulated by the likes of Tony Perkins, Pat Robertson, the American Family Association, the Traditional Values Coalition, etc., ad nauseum. And they also give "Christianity" a bad name, and "America" a bad name on account of those "Christians" who conflate their religion with their patriotism and decide that "God has blessed America for the purpose of remaking the world in America's image, so that everyone will become Christian and bring Jesus back in the Parousia, thus bringing us to the end of history and the beginning of the reign of Christ and the defeat of the Anti-Christ." Sadly, this bunch of looneys will never understand the true message of the Prince of Peace whose birth some of us celebrate in awe and wonder.
236 years of back taxes and fines for not paying taxes sounds good to me....fiscal cliff? can you say major surplus!
As far as I know, no one's ever been killed in the name of a philosophy.
How about Socrates?
Yep, there are notably two people in history who were tried, convicted and executed for nothing more than speaking the truth: Jesus and Socrates.
I believe the point of Zschiesche's post, however, was to say that so much killing has been done throughout history in the name of religion, as opposed to philosophy that is much more cerebral and less actionable. That's a reflection of something I wrote elsewhere: dogma is dangerous. It doesn't allow space for thoughtful consideration.
As far as I know, no one's ever been killed in the name of a philosophy.
Zschiesche: what about Marxism and Fascism?
You could be right about that. One could also argue that a huge number of people have been put to death for democracy. I think it's also possible to argue that those deaths were the result of psychopaths being in charge and not directly related to the philosopies.
Those are economic systems and systems of government; not necessarily philosophies.
Deism was, as I recall, the hallmark of our enlightened framers of the Constitution, not Christianity, which has too long a history of denying non-Christians good treatment. The belief that there is a deity, but beholden to no particular earthly version of religion was common among the men of reason of the 18th century.
Bill O'Reilly has thus proven that, to him, the point of Christianity is not faith, but tribalism. In order to defend the privileges, he's willing to toss aside the faith and claim it's something it isn't. The idea that you can be a Christian without believing Christ was God is ridiculous. O'Reilly claims you can be a Christian simply by liking Christ's philosophy. C.S. Lewis said that that was impossible because Jesus identified himself and the son of God, meaning if you didn't believe him you had to believe he was either insane or a con man. Regardless, Christianity has a meaning, and it's not just people say "this guy had some good ideas." Back off, O'Reilly, and stop trying to redefine what we believe.
Moreover, Jesus said just about the same thing. His message is one not of peace, but to divide. 'You're one of us Christians, believe in our one god, my own divinity, the truth as given in the bible, or you are against us.'
I cannot believe the attention that I am getting. An appearance in the O'Reilly dialogue or monologue; how special am I?
UNbfrikin'believable! BO' never ceases to amaze me with his un-ending supply of O'facts'...(There are some pretty amazing Irish people in this world, but he is not among them). I'm all for putting BO' and Beck in a room and see who jumps to the furthest conclusion fastest...at least it would be comic relief, and since they were both humorous before they started believing their schlock...it would be a returning to their roots event (perhaps it might even unwind their rubber-bands a bit)....we could call it "BO' & Beck at The Improv." ~just a thought~
... and much of the Constitution comes more from the Iroquois Nations than from Judeo-Christian beliefs. The Taliban/Teaparty, wanting to keep their base ignorant and therefor pliable, have done a pretty good job of rewriting history (sound familiar?) to marginalize any contribution to the founding and shaping of our culture by anyone not white anglo-saxon protestant (sound familiar?).
Read for yourself:
religion
noun (Concise Encyclopedia)
Relation of human beings to God or the gods or to whatever they consider sacred or, in some cases, merely supernatural. Archaeological evidence suggests that religious beliefs have existed since the first human communities. They are generally shared by a community, and they express the communal culture and values through myth, doctrine, and ritual. Worship is probably the most basic element of religion, but moral conduct, right belief, and participation in religious institutions also constitute elements of the religious life. Religions attempt to answer basic questions intrinsic to the human condition (Why do we suffer? Why is there evil in the world? What happens to us when we die?) through the relationship to the sacred or supernatural or (e.g., in the case of Buddhism) through perception of the true nature of reality. Broadly speaking, some religions (e.g., Judaism,Christianity, and Islam) are outwardly focused, and others (e.g., Jainism, Buddhism) are inwardly focused.
Christianity
noun (Concise Encyclopedia)
Religion stemming from the teachings of Jesus in the 1st century AD. Its sacred scripture is the Bible, particularly theNew Testament. Its principal tenets are that Jesus is the Son of God (the second person of the Holy Trinity), that God's love for the world is the essential component of his being, and that Jesus died to redeem humankind. Christianity was originally a movement of Jews who accepted Jesus as themessiah, but the movement quickly became predominantly Gentile. The early church was shaped by St. Paul and other Christian missionaries and theologians; it was persecuted under the Roman Empire but supported by Constantine I, the first Christian emperor. In medieval and early modern Europe, Christian thinkers such as St. Augustine, Thomas Aquinas, and Martin Luther contributed to the growth of Christian theology, and beginning in the 15th century missionaries spread the faith throughout much of the world. The major divisions of Christianity are Roman Catholicism, Eastern Orthodoxy, and Protestantism. Nearly all Christian churches have an ordained clergy, members of which are typically though not universally male. Members of the clergy lead group worship services and are viewed as intermediaries between the laity and the divine in some churches. Most Christian churches administer two sacraments, baptism and the Eucharist. In the early 21st century there were more than two billion adherents of Christianity throughout the world, found on all continents.
Wait, I agree with O'Reilly, Jesus is an "ideal", not a real person that actual never existed. All the churches and organizations that are using this ideal for political reasons or profits do not really follow Jesus ideals.
Would the ideal "Jesus" kill gays, or change the weather to make people suffer? Would Jesus tell us to kill the ones who don't think like us? Would he lie to you? Would he promote rape as a form of procreation? Christ is an ideal that not organized religion does actually follow, first time I agree with O'Reilly. Even though, he sounds like a crusader.
Except that is not Jesus' philosophy. He's very clear that god is divine, he is god's son and divine himself, and the bible is the perfect, true word of god.
Modern denominations of Christianity all hold this to be truth.
If you separate his morality, then it isn't even his. Morality existed before him and without him. But there is no point is separating it, because it is deliberately wrapped in supernatural packaging. What makes "right" right is because god decrees it so. That isn't philosophy or morality. That's religion at it's most fundamental.
Jesus deems certain acts "immoral" in contradiction to other events in the bible, a book he also proclaims is truth and holy. Rape is bad... unless god decides it's good. When the city of Sodom tries to rape god's angels, it's bad. When Lot sends his own daughters to take the rapings in the place of the angel, that was good. The option to stop them wasn't considered, because rape isn't universally bad. It's just bad when it's an act of defiance against god, so it's actually the defiance and not the act itself.
That story is included in what Jesus holds has truth and morality and righteous living. The "ideal" as you describe it, is what never existed.
how do you say in english "gihad", "aleyhoom" ?
additional "twig" news of possible interest
Judge Robert C. Jones, a George W. Bush appointee, found that the U.S. Constitution's guarantee of equal protection of the laws does not "[prohibit] the People of the State of Nevada from maintaining statutes that reserve the institution of civil marriage to one-man–one-woman relationships."
http://www.buzzfeed.com/chrisgeidner/federal-judge-rules-the-nevada-can-ban-same-sex-co
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Chris Stedman, the assistant humanist chaplain at Harvard University,coordinates its “Values in Action” program. In his recent book, “Faitheist: How an Atheist Found Common Ground with the Religious,” he tells how he went from a closeted gay evangelical Christian to an “out” atheist, and, eventually, a Humanist.
On the blog NonProphet Status, and now in the book, Stedman calls for atheists and the religious to come together around interfaith work. It is a position that has earned him both strident -- even violent -- condemnation and high praise. Stedman talked with RNS about how and why the religious and atheists should work together.
http://www.religionnews.com/faith/beliefs/whats-a-faitheist-chris-stedman-explains
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In New Jersey on Tuesday, four gay men who tried gay conversion therapy filed a civil suit against a prominent counseling group, Jews Offering New Alternatives for Healing, charging it with deceptive practices under the state’s Consumer Fraud Act.
The former clients said they paid thousands of dollars in fees over time, they said, only to be told that the lack of change in their sexual feelings was their own fault.
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/11/28/us/gay-conversion-therapy-faces-tests-in-courts.html?smid=tw-share
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The Humanist Association of Ghana practices a philosophy that is mostly unheard-of in that country, which a recent survey ranked as the most religious in the world. Nonetheless, the group has already made waves in West Africa.
Last weekend, the association hosted humanists from across the region for a conference in the capital of Accra. Lecturers talked about how humanists can stand up for gay and lesbian rights and against traditional practices like witch hunts. One talk dealt with whether humanism is compatible with belief in God.
http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Africa/2012/1125/In-world-s-most-religious-country-humanists-rally-for-secular-space
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The Vatican hailed the United Nations’ implicit recognition of a Palestinian state on Thursday and called for an internationally guaranteed special status for Jerusalem, something bound to irritate Israel.
http://forward.com/articles/166996/vatican-hails-un-vote-wants-special-status-for-jer/
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The day after Pope Benedict's latest book "The Infancy Narratives - Jesus of Nazareth," was published on November 20, some tabloid and social media decreed that he had cancelled Christmas.
"Killjoy pope crushes Christmas nativity traditions," read one tabloid headline, claiming that Benedict had snubbed traditions such as animals in nativity scenes and caroling.
http://news.yahoo.com/read-pope-not-cancelled-christmas-171608916.html
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ID badges containing radio tags started to be introduced at the start of the 2012 school year to schools run by San Antonio's Northside Independent School District . The tracking tags gives NISD a better idea of the numbers of students attending classes each day; the daily average of which dictates how much cash it gets from state coffers.
Andrea Hernandez refused to wear the tag because it conflicted with her religious beliefs, according to court papers. Wearing such a barcoded tag can be seen as a mark of the beast as described in Revelation 13 in the Bible, Ms Hernandez's father told Wired magazine in an interview.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-20461752
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An Egyptian court convicted Firebrand Florida pastor Terry Jones in absentia Wednesday and sentenced him to death in connection to a controversial anti-Islam film that incited deadly protests around the world in September, including the killing of the American ambassador in Benghazi, Libya.
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/world/u-s-pastor-burned-koran-sentenced-die-egypt-article-1.1209591#ixzz2DjYlZsu5
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Reacting to criticism of a religious Christmas display on public property, a Virginia public office said “None of the religious organizations in the county have had any problem with what we’re doing, It’s strictly this group of terrorists. They’re fanatics who basically want to stamp out religion in all public life and property.”
On Tuesday, Ken Reid apologized but added, “I still think they're fanatical.”
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/11/29/war-on-christmas-debate-virginia-officia-ken-reid-atheist-terrorists_n_2207723.html
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and finally...
Sufjan Stevens released volumes 6-10 of his Christmas Music albums, which includes, among many other things an inexplicable cover of Prince's "Alphabet St."
http://www.npr.org/2012/11/19/165470944/first-listen-sufjan-stevens-silver-gold?ps=mh_fl
one more
An anti-abortion, "Christ-centered ministry" in Vermont was looking for a federal loan to help build its operation, got rejected, and is now suing.
http://www.salon.com/2012/12/01/bible_pushing_pregnancy_center_sues_for_taxpayer_dollars/
The vatican recognizing Palestine seems like a headline to me...
The bar code thing... I have some close friends who believe every UPC code contains the numbers 666. I have shown them how codes are generated and how they are read, but they are still convince that hidden in the code are the demonic 666.
666 is already gone, that was during the Bush Adminiistration, when the wars broke out and the newspapers said that God was dead. You have a son today, and he shall be Levon(novel), and he shall be a good man. We're already in the month of December, 121212 was yesterday, 122212 is today. Basic Numerology.
120112 was yesterday 120212 is today, that's basic calendar reading.
Sorry, Buster I don't have any nuts to bust. Basic de-coder reading 101. A lesson may be needed in basic anatomy, also, just kidding ( snarl).
This is yet another one of those cases where it's really immaterial whether he has a point or not, because his conclusions don't follow from his premises, whether they are unique, traditional, logical, or fanciful.
Whether or not Christmas is a religious observance or a secular holiday, whether or not Christianity is a religion or a philosophy, whether or not the religious history and tradition can be divorced from the secular aspects of it, "Happy Holidays" and "Season's Greetings" are not a "war" on Christmas, especially not when the holiday is nearly a month away.
One can have the fondest feelings for Christmas, the deepest religious convictions, and the firmest conservative principles and still recognize that there are more holidays in play than just Christmas, and yes, it's all part of a Winter Season, or a Holiday Season, or a Season of Love and Thanksgiving or whatever.
When you cannot go anywhere without hearing Christmas carols, when every store has at least some section that is full of overtly Christmas merchandise, when every television station is showing Christmas themed shows, and everything else is going on, you simply cannot claim that there is a war AGAINST Christmas going on, no matter what people may be putting on their holiday flyers.
It's like saying that telling someone "Good Morning" on their birthday is an attack on their birthday. It's ludicrous on its face.
Well, actually our political system was modeled, in a large part, by the Onondaga Indian tribes method of gathering in big lodge to discuss problems throughout their communities of tribes. Benjamin Franklin was the one who studied it and brought it to our early leaders' attention. The natives had a strong religious basis, but their political system didn't include it too strongly as part of the tenets, because they lived by their religious views naturally. And it certainly wasn't the Judeo-Christian philosophy!
They live by their spiritual views, they know that Jesus was born in the East. They have nothing to do with Religion. They have a more balanced approach to life, mind, spirit and body. No religion. You need to study a little bit more about our Native Americans. They survived. We're killing ourselves.
Oh my goodness REALLY!!!
Ah yes, politics and religion do not make for good conversation at dinner. O'Reilly was trying to point out to the great Govenor of RI that his decision to call a Christmas Tree a "Holiday Tree" was stupid.
This is not about religion, it is about the inane rantings of people who want to make a statement. My opinion is that neither one of them is correct. You still have the right to believe what you want to, but you don't have the right to dictate your beliefs to everyone else - especially if you hold a public office.
I live in RI.
Exactly!
Which belief system is "holiday" exclusive to? i.e. which belief system is the Govenor forcing on everyone by using the word 'holiday'?