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First up from the God Machine this week is an unexpected twist in a tiresome annual exercise -- the time of year in which the right says the left is waging a "war on Christmas." This week, one of the leading culture warriors on the subject, Fox News' Bill O'Reilly, presented an argument I hadn't heard before.
"Christianity is not an organized religion.... Christianity is a philosophy. You don't have to believe Jesus is God in order to admire his view on life.
"Millions of Muslims admire Jesus as a prophet. In fact the United States was founded on Judeo-Christian philosophy, that's what shaped our constitutional tenets. Again if you are stone-cold dumb and don't understand the difference between an organized church and a philosophy, I cannot help you."
The conservative host added that those who believe Christianity is a religion "are so stupid, it's painful."
Putting aside the fact that our constitutional tenets are entirely secular, what's striking here is that it's highly unusual for a socially conservative culture warrior to insist, proudly on national television in pre-written remarks, that Christianity is not a religion.
Every year, I think this annual exercise can't get sillier. And every year, it gets a little worse.
Also from the God Machine this week:
* TV preacher Pat Robertson this week came out against young-earth creationism, putting him to the left of Sen. Marco Rubio (R-Fla.)
* Just as the Ugandan parliament again mulls a draconian law that would brutally punish gay people, the country's leadership is drawing praise from Family Research Council leader Tony Perkins.
* In Northern Mali, religious fundamentalists have banned all music and exiles have described "a shattering of their culture, in which playing music brings lashes with whips, even prison time, and MP3 and cassette players are seized and destroyed" (via reader R.B.).
* A federal judge this week dismissed "a lawsuit filed by a church coalition seeking to challenge Santa Monica's ban on nativity and other seasonal displays in public spaces" (via reader R.P.).
* And the American Family Association's Bryan Fischer said this week that if Americans use fewer fossil fuels, it's an insult to God.
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As a Christian and a Liberal, I dont mind, and in fact even enjoy seeing Nativity displays and any other forms of Christmas displays, I recognize the fact that there is Seperation of Church and State. The reason is that our country was founded by folks that did not want the government interfering with their religious beliefs. I do take issue with groups that want to limit my own personal display on my own property. I think cities should be able to decorate trees, and anything else with decorations that are not of a religious nature. We so need to lighten up!
It's pretty standard fare in fundamentalist and/or evangelical circles to hear "Christianity isn't a religion, it's a relationship". Drives me bonkers but what O'Reilly said isn't new.
I'm Catholic. I practice the religion of Christianity. It doesn't ruffle my tail feathers a bit to admit it out loud.
Via ThinkProgress, a bill working it's way through the Michigan legislature that would allow health-care providers to deny care to anyone if the provider has any kind of religious/conscientious objection.
So I guess if you're trans or gay or in any other way 'objectionable' and brought bleeding to death to a Catholic hospital in Michigan, then that's just your tough luck.
so i guess if you're trans or gay or in any other way 'objectionable' (PREGNANT) and brought bleeding to death to a catholic hospital...then that's just your tough luck.
Thank you, Suzette, now what should I do? Are all the Hospitals catholic? I'm going to have to go out of state.
the town that i live in, has one hospital, a catholic hospital. the nearest hospital is 25 miles away, another CATHOLIC HOSPITAL.
a woman bleeding from pregnancy HERE would have to travel 100 miles (by ambulance) to find a hospital who would perform the procedure to save her life, IF SHE DIDN'T DIE ON THE WAY OVER THERE.
For what it's worth, I believe that Christmas is a celebration of the birth of Jesus, as a christian. That's all - a birthday. It is not about trees and presents and who has the best sales. Just sayin...
Did you ask Jesus if it was alright to call him a Christian? He didn't sign up for being the king of the jews either. We need to stop playing Barbies' with G.I. Joe, I didn't have a Ken doll yet. My brother wrapped his G.I. Joe up and gave it to me for Christmas one year. Jesus would prefer not to be labled, like Calvin Klein or Tommy Hilfinger or Guess jeans. Labels are out this year, sewing your own clothes is in. I'm working on a jean skirt. I'm busy bringing the hippy girl back or gypsey, whatever tinks your bell. I'm still figuring out the tea leaves thing, supposedly it's in my blood.
i don't think that jesus cares what we call him.
if in fact, HE DOES EXIST, in the way that we have been "taught" that he does, we still BRING to OUR understanding of HIM, the IMPERFECTIONS of our human-NESS (our physical health, our mental health, and our HISTORY on this earth). in part this is based on the imperfections and "human-ness" of THOSE WHO "TAUGHT" US.
it is up to EACH OF US to find meaning in the existence of jesus, if we want to do so, IF WE HAVE THE DESIRE, however we achieve that desire.
everyone might not have the same opportunity, based on their upbringing or what-have-you.
if, in fact, jesus exists in the way that each of us has been taught that he does, i believe he is not judgemental and understands the struggles that we bear in finding our understanding.
this is my humble opinion only.
I made a comment about the general Deism of the enlightenment. Why did it disappear? (Deism meaning belief in a Creator but one not beholden to any particular religious version of it.)
No outreach.. Same for the pretty darn sensible ancestor worship.
That and no tangible validations..?..
Jim: your earlier post is visible to me. It's #40 on the list.
jjm...
Deism hasn't died... I readily admit that I am a Deist... It's just that one of the main tenets of our faith (notice the small 'f') is "Thou shalt not proselytize"...
If you don't believe anyone has the right to shove their religion down your throat, why should you be any different?...
It's a good thing that I am not a Christian but rather a "Disciple of Christ". Trust there is a BIG difference. A great sermon by Andy Stanley : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c_qZW7fTsWo&feature=player_detailpage
America is NOT a Christian nation neither is it a nation that imitates Christ.
TO >>>
Dee Grover >>>
YOU STATED: "It's a good thing that I am not a Christian but rather a "Disciple of Christ" [sic]
That is like saying, "Was he pushed or shoved"?
If you are a disciple of Christ [A disciple is a follower and student of a mentor, TEACHER, or other figures it can refer to.] and if you are a Christian, practicing Christianity [The religion based on the life and TEACHINGS of Jesus Christ .], it is one and the same.
Albeit, I think I know what you are getting at when you categorized yourself. I am guessing you are one of the many who could be identified as “Cafeteria Christians”. Cafeteria Christianity is shopping for ideas you approve of.
While Christ TEACHES that ALL of Scripture is the Word of God and will never pass away, there are those who reject much of what was written through God the Holy Spirit.
I hope you are not one of those. The entirety of Scripture is Gods Word - what Christ TAUGHT - and what practicing “disciples of Christ” believe.
Many Many non-christians that I know enjoy the holiday decor. I cannot understand when the tide turned from the will of the majority to bending over backwards to please a vocal minority.
See: every aspect of our government that protects the rights of a minority from the tyranny of a majority. For example, the Bill of Rights.
TO >>> ForceStrong >>>
Please contact Obama and explain this to him ! Thank you !
To Cantor,
If you want to work one third of next year you should collect one third of your salary.
Remember we are paying your wages.
Evie
Every now and again, I get this "Christianity is a philosophy" concept thrown at me by relatives and door-to-door proselytizer. Here is how I engage them:
There is a difference between philosophy and theology. One of them has a holy book. One of them has the words blasphemy, heresy, sacred and sacrilege in their vocabulary. The other side believes "truth" is strong enough to withstand any examination.
If you want to debate Christianity as a philosophy, I want to know that you've done your homework and have more than the bible for your sources. You can only use quotes attributed to Jesus himself from a non-religious or non-christian translation. There are plenty of them out there. In other words, you cannot base a philosophical discussion, especially the "Christianity is not a religion but a philosophy" topic, on a religious document.
"In fact the United States was founded on Judeo-Christian philosophy, that's what shaped our constitutional tenets."
Billy boy conveniently ignores the fact that only one of the men commonly regarded as our founding fathers, John Jay, was an avowed Christian, and Mr. Jay was a most intolerant man to anyone who didn't share his particular view of Christianity. The majority of our founding fathers were either deists or expressed no particular religious belief.
hi Rachel......I have to say bill O'rialy is right in the sence that God's control...
The fact that he believes in God at all amazes me....however God did destroy the world with water.....and saved Noah and the animals with the arch....but read on..He also said he would never destroy the world again with water and put a rainbow in the sky to give his promise....we see this after a rain at times....but, God did say He would destroy the world a second time....and it would be with fire....so the fire has to start from somehwere....I didn't read beyond this, however, I believe that's why we are seeing the change in seasons......God did say you would know by the seasons when he would come back again.....I also believe our weather is getting hotter....and winters are almost a thing of the past...countries will get too hot for asians to live...they are suffering now....last year i went to Ohio and bout' died, temp there was over 100 degres.
Some say the world will end in fire,
Some say in ice.
From what I've tasted of desire
I hold with those who favor fire.
But if it had to perish twice,
I think I know enough of hate
To say that for destruction ice
Is also great
And would suffice.
Robert Frost
Oh Billy boy, the constitutional fundamentals were based on liberal philosophies like Locke, Kant, Bentham, and Mill, not on Christianity. Try reading those those along with those documents you always bash people over the head with, you know...Jefferson's letters, the Federalist papers, etc.
Finally, if you so desire to hew to constitutional principles, you'll give up on contemporary theories like libertarianism, which isn't even a philosophy.
Bill O'Reilly doesn't think that Christianity is a religion? Huh? What?
So is O'Reilly an atheist, or what?
Sooo..O'Reilly insists that christianity isn't a religion and Robertson denies creationism?
Maybe the Mayans were right.
(lol)
From the World Book Dictionary (the dictionary I happen to have within arms reach at the moment):
philosophy, noun
1) the study of the truth or principles underlying all knowledge; the study of the most general causes and principles of the universe.
2) an explanation or theory of the universe, especially an explanation or particular system arranged by a philosopher: the philosophy of Plato.
3) a system for guiding life, as a body of principles of conduct, religious beliefs, or traditions: the philosophy of a New England Puritan.
etc.
All religions are philosophies but all philosophies are not religions (religions are a type of philosophy centered on supernatural beings).
Christianity is a religion and a philosophy.
And Bill O'Reilly is a nincompoop. Look it up, Bill.
oops
should read "not all philosophies are religions". Once again I have fallen prey to the fact that the English language does not commute.
Except philosophy is also widely defined as a pursuit of knowledge using reason, rational thinking, and logic. Jesus' beliefs about the origin of our existence being supernatural are decidedly not logical.
Yep, the pursuit of knowledge using reason, rational thinking, and logic without reference to supernatural beings is a type of philosophy -- Natural Philosophy (aka Physics).
The problem is, we can only study those things that are part of the universe. Since time itself began when the universe began, a creator of the universe is by definition beyond the scope of study. (What happened before the beginning of time?) This is why the label 'supernatural' is appropriate, for the creator of nature would be above nature, not part of it.
Assuming there is a specific creator is supernatural and religious. Simply reflecting about the what happened at creation isn't necessarily so.
Yep -- but that does not exclude belief in the supernatural from philosophy.
Or require that all philosophies are equally valid or useful. The fact that some philosophical frameworks are superior in terms of practical results does not mean they comprise the entire field.
Actually have to commend BillO, he understands that just 'accepting Jesus as your savior' is not the essence of Christianity....but it remains an organized religion, with institutions, leadership and followers who often forget its basic principles (aka Vatican and John Hagee)
If christianity is "just a philosophy", shouldn't all the churches lose their tax-exempt status? Deficit problems solved, thanks Bill!
Or all PhD's (Doctorates of Philosophy) are the equivalent of ordained ministers or priests. As such, they should be exempt from taxation and the draft, as is the case with the clergy. Of course, to prevent exploding the deficit taxes will have to be increased significantly on those without PhD's, such as Bill O'Reilly.
In his honor, we can call it the 'Nincompoop Tax Increase'.
Special tax rules for clergy and church property effectively exempt many clergy from significant property and income tax.
Also, if you feel yourself exempt from the draft, are male, and within a certain age range, you will face significant penalties if you do not register for the draft. There is a difference between being exempt and currently not being called up.
Here's an idea: How about if the Family Research Council moves to Uganda?
FRC seems to get the laws it wants there, and we would enjoy more peace here in the U.S.
Okay, just who is Bill O'Reilly, and who gives a s#!t?
IN RESPONSE TO : Fox News' Bill O'Reilly’s statement:
“You don't have to believe Jesus is God in order to admire his view on life.” [sic]
That statement is about as helpful as saying: “You don’t have to believe that the ice on a lake, that you must cross to save your life, will hold you in order to just sit there, waste away, and enjoy it’s twelve-inch thickness.”
How many people REALLY know who Jesus Christ is and how important a role He plays in human life….ETERNAL human life?
To understand who Jesus Christ really is, you must read everything in the Scriptures that talk about Him. Without that, you will end up with something that you “think” He might be. >>>>>>
Here is a good place to start………..
JOHN 1: 1 >>>>
“In the beginning was the Word [JESUS], and the Word was with God, and the Word WAS God. He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through Him all things were made; without Him nothing was made that has been made…. He was in the world, and though the world was made through Him, the world did not recognize Him…12 Yet to all who did receive him… He gave the right to become children of God.
14 The Word [GOD] became FLESH and made His dwelling among us. We have seen His glory, the glory of the one and only Son…18 No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son [JESUS], WHO IS HIMSELF GOD and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made Him known.
What could be O'Reilly's motive for saying that Christianity is a philosophy and not a religion? Is it a premise for going on to say that Christianity is not subject to the wall between church and state because it is not a religion? Just scratching my head trying to understand why our right wingers would say such a thing.
(Maybe I'm giving him too much credit for thinking things out.)
Sort've. He's essentially trying to argue that Christmas isn't a religious holiday even though it's supposedly promoting Christianity. The way to get around having to call it a religious holiday (and therefore making Christmas subject to church and state separation issues) is to pretend that Christianity isn't a religion and therefore no holiday celebrating Christian beliefs would fall under that clause. Inadvertently he's just admitted that the 1st Amendment does in fact emphasize a ban on church and state. Which means Bill O'Reilly is great at debating....Bill O'Reilly.
He was bringing this up while whining about Rhode Island calling it's Christmas Tree at townhall "The Holiday Tree" (which it has been doing for some years now) instead of "The Christmas Tree." His point being that by calling it The Holiday Tree somehow this is a war on Christmas and therefore Christians.
People have been decorating trees, getting drunk, and singing to each other and said decorated trees for thousands of years -- long before there was even a town of Bethlehem to be born in. It is part of our cultural heritage derived from homelands with cold, dreary Decembers.
It is a Holiday Tree! The holiday this millennium happens to be Christmas.
It was foolishly stated, but he is not without a point. There is the doctrinal Christianity which certainly is a religion, but the is also the common Christian philosophical, cultural, artistic inheritance which is much broader and allows an atheist like myself to love Christmas, appreciate Handel, stand in awe of Michelangelo's David, weep at the radicalism of the Sermon on the Mount and enjoy the majesty of Notre Dame or Chartres (and this is a list that could go on almost forever) . We are all to some extent christian as this is the firmament of our history, but we are not all Christians. This is why, he is right that Rhode Island is being foolish. Of course it IS a Christmas tree and, of course, as a formerly Pagan symbol, it can belong to all of us. All of that being said, the 'War are Christmas' people are generally nuts, but even a broken clock...........
yes, he is not without a point. check the next time he takes his hat off.
"the firmament of our history" - WTF? check under your hood, i think there's a christian hiding there.
i do not agree that it takes a christian background ("philosophical, cultural, artistic inheritance") to appreciate the things you go on to list. all it takes is humanity (and some esthetic sense). how else do you explain appreciation of far eastern or african art/music by the western-soaked mind.
Just How can anyone even begin to listen to or let-alone believe what these goofy r-wingers have to say , they make-up stories and scenario's only for their own benefit and at the same time they are attempting to convince themselves of what they state as reality or fact ! They fool themselves , but not everyone else !
The 'Fiscal Cliff' talks are going nowhere. Instead of having a sit-down with
members of both parties and resolving the issue, Obama is running around to
campaign-style events in which he’s touting his tax hikes on the wealthy and
attacking the Republicans to adoring hand-picked crowds.
Obama needs to do what he was elected to do, LEAD! Instead he does what
a community agitator normally does: stir up anger!
Obama’s proposal for resolving the ‘Fiscal Cliff’? $1.6 Trillion in Tax hikes,
extension of unemployment benefits that already exceeded any previous coverage,
a “permanent” ability to raise the debt ceiling, independent of Congress and
Obama is also demanding a new $50 billion stimulus program. There was no
significant effort to rein in our bloated spending.
Obama appears very confident that if the budget talks fail, Republicans in the
House will attract most of the blame. That may be, but he should remember that
his own approval ratings collapsed to an all-time low in the aftermath of the
failed debt ceiling negotiations last year. We are headed for a financial meltdown
and Obama acts like it is a political game. Maddow and the rest of the MSNBC
crew as well as the liberals who post here will of course blame the
Republicans. But it is you who reelected the incompetent failure we have in the
White House.
Lets just take a look back and see just what and who got US into this mess ,
1st , there was President Clinton who left the office with a surplus of 850 million
2nd , there was gwb/cheney that began spending immediately
3rd , there was the attacks of 911
4th , unpaid war was started in Afganistan
5th , there was another unfunded and inappropriate war started in Iraq
6th , then , there were gwb's taxbreaks for the wealthiest in America
let us view this a little bit closer ; the attacks of 911 extinguished 3500 American lives ; Iraq war , cost US 6000 American lives and 20000 Americans Maimed and wounded
The Afganistan war has cost 8000 American lives and 30000 maimed and wounded Americans
Lets see ; in American Lives Alone 12000 as apposed to the attacks of 911 of 3500
And then a surplus of 850 million as apposed to a deficit of 10.9 Trillion thanks to gwb/cheney ; Just where do these calculations equalize ?
OH , Thats Right , Its Obama's Fault ? Is that because he was in the office of the Presidency from 2000 thru 2008 , Illegally ?
Mud-Slide, essentially correct. but, please, don't get them started on the legality of President Obama. or... are you just setting up a fun argument? if so, don't let me stand in the way.
temp ~ NO , Not the legality of President Obama ; the legality of gwb/cheney's 2 ILLEGAL Terms , via voter fraud is what I was eluding to !
temp ~ U may Freely Intervene at anytime ; it is your free-will and right to do so , My Friend !
MS...
Sorry to be picky, but...
elude - to escape, to avoid capture
allude - to provide reference to, to react to
MS - don't forget the 6 Trillion dollar and growing increase in the National Debt under Obama!
You proved my point! No matter how incompetent and irresponseble Obama is, you libs will defend him!
What 6 trillion ? ~~~~ And the Purposeful Ignorance still continues ! Don't It !
On top of the financial aspects of this ; just what price must be placed upon 12000 American Lives Snuffed-out , not to mention All of the maimed and dis-membered Americans !
sillyboy , You want to talk of Irresponsible and Incompetent ??????? WOW !!!!
Well , Yes lets SEE ; The terrorists killed ~~~~~~ 3500
gwb/cheney killed ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~12000
So , Its OKAY that gwb/cheney killed More Americans than the terrorists did ? Almost 3 times as many ~ That's OKAY ??? And All of you Gomers Support this ???
MS - you really can't handle the fact that your 'boy' is a screw up!
And Yet U-All continue with your Projection-ism , Ignorance and blame ????
Reality IS Just around the corner , Don't U know !!?? HAH , of-course U-Don't !!!!
sully...
How much of that $6 trillion you refer to is interest accrued on the debt built up and hidden by Republican administrations? How much was forced on him by Republican intransigence, holding other legislation and the nation hostage? How much was given to Republican governors and state governments to cover their state deficits, while they destroyed government jobs and railed against the stimulus?
While blaming President Obama for over-spending which he hasn't done, you ignore the responsibility of those who held, and continue to hold, the purse-strings... The Speaker of the House and the Republican majority there...