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First up from the God Machine this week is an unexpected twist in a tiresome annual exercise -- the time of year in which the right says the left is waging a "war on Christmas." This week, one of the leading culture warriors on the subject, Fox News' Bill O'Reilly, presented an argument I hadn't heard before.
"Christianity is not an organized religion.... Christianity is a philosophy. You don't have to believe Jesus is God in order to admire his view on life.
"Millions of Muslims admire Jesus as a prophet. In fact the United States was founded on Judeo-Christian philosophy, that's what shaped our constitutional tenets. Again if you are stone-cold dumb and don't understand the difference between an organized church and a philosophy, I cannot help you."
The conservative host added that those who believe Christianity is a religion "are so stupid, it's painful."
Putting aside the fact that our constitutional tenets are entirely secular, what's striking here is that it's highly unusual for a socially conservative culture warrior to insist, proudly on national television in pre-written remarks, that Christianity is not a religion.
Every year, I think this annual exercise can't get sillier. And every year, it gets a little worse.
Also from the God Machine this week:
* TV preacher Pat Robertson this week came out against young-earth creationism, putting him to the left of Sen. Marco Rubio (R-Fla.)
* Just as the Ugandan parliament again mulls a draconian law that would brutally punish gay people, the country's leadership is drawing praise from Family Research Council leader Tony Perkins.
* In Northern Mali, religious fundamentalists have banned all music and exiles have described "a shattering of their culture, in which playing music brings lashes with whips, even prison time, and MP3 and cassette players are seized and destroyed" (via reader R.B.).
* A federal judge this week dismissed "a lawsuit filed by a church coalition seeking to challenge Santa Monica's ban on nativity and other seasonal displays in public spaces" (via reader R.P.).
* And the American Family Association's Bryan Fischer said this week that if Americans use fewer fossil fuels, it's an insult to God.
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If xtianity isn't a religion that means all these churches or philosophy centers I suppose....will now have to PAY TAXES. If that what you want Bill so be it LOL
If anyone on MSNBC said that Christianity wasn't a religion but a philosophy they'd be a godless devil worshipping pinko communist.
Pat Robertson is sounding more sane than I would expect. Which is particularly odd because out of him and O'Reilly I'd expect Robertson to be more crazy. This is indeed a strange week in God.
Ha haaaaaa , willy o'insanity and and patsy rob-his-own-son and others on That-side are the most insane idiots that I have ever heard preach and spew such hypocritical rhetoric , but , hey , as long as it appeases them and their blind outlook and belief's of which , no-one can keep track of , because they spin and twist their directions only to suit themselves and their dire scenario's at whatever given time that benefits them ! Gomers , he he he heeeeeeee.............
I Guess that it All makes sense to them ???????????
Do we not like Gomer Pile? I missed out on this new meme. Barnie Fife is Mick Jaggers' cousin once removed. Oh, Micky you're so fine, you're so fine you blow my mind.
Angel...
'Gomer" is what MS uses to refer to any TEApublican propagandist, aka Kochroach... He has used it a long, LONG time... It's practically his Signature...
There's one of them now - SWAT! Flick! Got'im!...
I wonder what God actually thinks about everyone down here who insists on putting words in Her mouth?
Hey! The power of Christ Compels you!!
Didn't you get the memo?
All of the aforementioned people, places and organizations are sociopathic and some, certifiably insane. Bill O'Reilly is just an ass-hole, big-mouth who should get liver cancer and die, soon!
APPLAUSE , Applause !! YEY !!!!
Trollop, you always amaze me how well outspoken you are. But, deathwishes scare me, you're entertaining yourself with negative thoughts and then allowing them to be heard throughout our universe. I know I get so angry sometimes too. But, words can also prove to be a mighty sword. Pray for protection. There are still a lot of mortals out there.
That's not nice, Jerold. Cigarettes are more addicting than heroin. I hope everyone will quit.
do we really want to wish bill oreilly dead?
we (i) don't want to do to bill oreilly what repubs have done to our President.
{i do, however, appreciate the fact that our President has learned from his past mistakes (compromises) and is standing his ground after previously giving repubs 98% of what they wanted, even though, per the 2012 election, it should be clear to repubs what IT IS that the american people want}.
if nothing else, i find bill oreilly and rush limbaugh hillarious and entertaining, even though i can't listen to them for very long. i just don't understand how people buy into what they are selling.
Pay no attention to jerold. He is just a miserable person seeking attention or trying to make everybody as miserable and hateful as he is.
Thank you, I knew we could always count on Elmo to see us through.
What I've heard is that we are all going to die/transform in 19 days,, on a Friday.. So wouldn't it be funny if the next day, scientists found a earth hitting asteroid but, it was 9 months away.. And to set a nuclear bomb off nearby, wouldn't change it's course? Funny, in that it would probably take us 10 months to respond..
Christmas is not "holy day" it's a holiday.
Deciphering words, excellent! How about Adam's apple?
So, Bill O'Reilly is now a radical deist Unitarian? O-keh.
Who gives a damn? Making up shhit over made up shhit and fighting over it.
DWIA This is interesting link to click on http://www.celebritynetworth.com/richest-celebrities/bill-oreilly-net-worth/
Or if you don't care about the details, he makes 16 million a year. Really this is what it's all about, the money. Damn think of it, just get a few of your friends together, and think of outrageous comments, that get people all out of whack, have fun and make money. Only thing needed is a big enough audience.
Making poop up, over made up poop and fighting over it, is one of humanity's greatest form of amusement. I mean it's at least something to do.
you people are sooo pessimistic! Its the END OF THE WORLD so that equals devastating catastrophe. it could just be the end of the world as we know it, might not have anything to do with devastation at all. we see everything so negatively but that's because we've created for ourselves a perfect negative reality. its you're on your own, get as much as you can for yourself, in other words the profit motive. yes wealth is created, the source of good feelings in the negative reality, but so is poverty and pollution. you'll note how upset some of us get when the topics of sharing and clean up are brought up, well let me put it this way when you get between an addict and their addiction they don't want you around anymore. even love is corrupted in the negative reality, the idea is there but the execution is flawed. we seek to secure it for ourselves at the expense of all others. the problem is with the idea that we can only love one person at a time. first off Love is a concept and therefore infinite. for example you don't love your father 33% your mother 33% your sibling33% and the pet 1% you love them all, granted you place more importance on some relationships over others. secondly Love isn't an emotion it is the cause of emotions both positive and negative. I've mentioned a negative reality you're wondering is there a positive reality? In all the utopias ever devised there was one thing missing and that was Love. Love is the basis of the positive reality. whereas in the negative reality we use material objects to make us happy in the positive reality we use Love to do the same thing. now why haven't we been doing this the whole time? first off the basic motivation for doing anything is to stimulate the pleasure center of your brain. in the negative reality assigning value to an inanimate object and then acquiring said object stimulates the pleasure center of your brain. there is a version of love available in the negative reality but its a bounded version and the feelings have to be mutual if they aren't the party who had the very positive feelings has a good chance to now have very negative feelings. In the positive reality how do we use love to make us happy without the negative consequences? one I need to ask you something can you directly experience someone Else's mind? can you read their thoughts feel their emotions experience their senses? I'll answer that for you and the answer is no, no you can't. now what's the point of this? the point is when someone loves you can you feel their love? no! so when can you feel love? only when you love. so the only way to feel the joy of love is when you love not when someone loves you. when someone loves you they're creating an environment in which you can chose to love. the consequence of all this is that you don't need someone else to love you to experience love you just have to love. when its said love is in the heart its meant that feeling that manifests in the middle of the chest, in the positive reality that's the feeling we want to grow and maintain. I said before that Love is infinite and the consequence of that is that you can love everyone well for the positive reality to become a reality you HAVE to love everyone. I know this is a burden because there are lots of layers in the negative reality we have to get through a big one is the ugly factor which I'll redefine as mishapism when someone appears to be misshaped we say they're ugly. the Greeks said you can't love an ugly person. I think what they really meant was you don't want to have sex with an ugly person. I think one of the main reasons people won't extend their love is the fear of being stuck with someone. in the negative reality you can only be with one person so you better chose wisely. another reason is jealousy which again is based on the idea that you can only love one person so if you love them you must not love me and hurt feelings ensue. so how to get around all this in the positive reality love is based upon affection and you can generate feelings of affection for anyone coupled with trust that even though you're with someone else right now you'll still love them too. the difference between the negative and positive realities is this the negative is finite resources are finite I have more you have less this gives rise to selfishness which creates a blight upon the world. the positive is infinite it uses the mind to stimulate the pleasure center of the brain thus it doesn't need as much material wealth and maybe we can stop being so hard on ourselves and the planet. Merry Christmas
Suggestion: paragraphs.
Obvious troll is obvious
Somebody actually read it?
I did skim over that rambling mess. I noticed this comment: "the Greeks said you can't love an ugly person. I think what they really meant was you don't want to have sex with an ugly person." That can't possibly be true. If it were, I'd still be a virgin. :-)
No no no.....People are fascinated in the Mayan calender, and make a big hoopla about it because of wishful thinking. Lets face it, life if not a frustrating vial of tears, and hardship, is tedious and dull. It's work, bills, taxes, fighting traffic, getting along with others [not always easy] etc. etc. And in the end no mater how hard you try to take good care of yourself, you still get old sick and die. Better to die in a car crash, then of wasting away in a nursing home. This is the reason other end of the world cults are so popular too. Like the rapture cults, [I CANNOT STAND THOSE PEOPLE] I can understand hanging on to the childish belief of heaven after [or hell for our enemies] but these week, pathetic, and vain, losers who delude themselves they will not have to face death. That instead they will be magically whisked to heaven, while all nonbelievers face parallels here on earth.
I am not going to tell some bereaved folks who lost a loved one, said loved one is not looking down at us from heaven smiling. But there comes a point, particularly when groups try to influence science, and politics with these ideas. Like big bang, and evolution come from the pit of hell, or God would not let us destroy the earth or ourselves.
All "religions" are nothing more than philosophy, from the Treaty of Tripoli.."As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion" "Religion" actually philosophy is simply a way to live one's life
This week in god in home town of Soseibian, Washington, the weather’s cold, and there is a bite of frost in the air. You don’t want to go outside much- in fact after all the excitement and energy of summer and the harvest reaped in November, everybody is pretty much exhausted and just wants to sleep. The remaining residents of Soseibian are solid stock- their families settled the territory and give every appearance of bears- both in girth, demeanor and unfortunate occasional flatulence. During the late summer and fall, we dutifully fill up our pantries with the plentiful harvest of apples, blackberries, boysenberries, dried mushrooms, smoked salmon and hazelnuts and hunker down in our dens to wait out the cold of Winter. You just want to crawl under your comforter and hide there. All the harvest is over. The election is over. People are just exhausted and want to go back inside and find some of the normalcy before all of the hubbub and yelling and noise.
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All of the big Maples, Birches, Willow Apple, Plum and Cherry trees have dropped their leaves, and this can be quite startling to the youngest residents of Soseibian. There is real anxiety about whether the leaves will return again- "Are the trees all dying?" is a common question asked by children with wide eyes. There is a sincere concern and fear for the trees that produced such joy during the summer- The sweet sparkling fruit or the Tarzan like vines of the Willows used to swing into the summer water. Or the level branches perfect for building the ultimate tree forts. The older children are asked for advice and they are told it is really not death, and that though there is some death, that there is a cycle of life in it all. This seems to have some resonance these days not so much due to backwoods wisdom, but the dominance that the Disney Movies, like Lion King seem to have to taken on the thinking of the young here. That’s not such a bad thing, I suppose. My older son Chester was calming his younger brother Elias about the deathly cast of the trees around him, and the younger Elias latched onto the Lion King aspects- partly because he was born in Africa and anything connected with it automatically has greater verisimilitude.
And so Chester was on a bit of a roll and as is his nature, felt less restraint than normal and expanded onto related subjects. “You know Elias, that Papa will get old and his hair will come out. Like the leaves. Except the hair won’t come back- and he will get old.
Elias jumps in happily, proclaiming that he will be big then, and it will be his turn to take Papa to Disneyland. Chester seemed very happy about that prospect, volunteering that they could both take turns pushing the wheelchair.
There’s a finality to the winter as you get older, after you have had your first big heart attack. You look at the stark branches and the morning frost on the window panes, and you know that it will all come to a close one day- that your time is fading.
But I don’t want to go to Disneyland. Maybe by that time I won’t care anymore.
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That’s the news of the week from my home town of Soseibian.
Mali is music. To ban music there is to rip the heart out of their culture. Jazz and blues are direct descendants of Malian tradition. An absolute tragedy.
Yep. Look where Mali is. Smack in the middle of slave gathering territory. Mali had built an empire on gold, salt and slaves. The Uncle Remus tales also came over by the same route.
I am not an expert on the development of American jazz, but it is certainly plausible that the music of the Mande people (the dominant ethnic group in Mali) was a major influence. It is also my understanding that the banjo is descended from the ngoni, the one-string lute played by the griots (storytellers) of old Mali.
What I can affirm for sure is that in the twentieth and 21st centuries, the nation of Mali has been a major musical center that has produced some very important performers, such as the kora (harp) virtuoso Toumani Diabate. And at any rate, it is indeed a tragedy that northern Mali has fallen under the control of fanatics who hate the arts so much that they are willing to destroy musical instruments and silence musicians in the name of God.
One more comment on what is happening in Mali right now in regard to music. Here is a quote from the African singer Youssou N'Dour, who is not Malian but who comes from Senegal, whose culture is influenced by the Mande people. In 2004, N'Dour won a Grammy award for his album "Egypt," which celebrates West African Sufi saints. When he performed the album live at Carnegie Hall, he said this:
"[This] music is music. It is not politics. It is not really even religion. It is an expression of gratitude, of respect, of reverence--for life, for love, for the dignity of people, for the wonder of the human predicament, these being emotions informed by religion, but by humanity too. But something else needs to be said about this music. We would be remiss in not saying that we, artists of all stripes within the Muslim communities of the world, have a duty in these times to represent Muslim culture proudly, nobly, and, in the face of those who would pervert our religious heritage in the name of our faith, even defiantly." (Emphasis added.)
In other words--N'Dour is urging his fellow Muslims not to let extremists define the faith.
(From program notes by Youssou N'Dour for his live performance of the album "Egypt" at Carnegie Hall, October 26, 2005. Formerly posted on the Carnegie Hall website. It appears to have been removed, alas; I am quoting from a hard copy that I printed up a few years ago.)
They could have fooled me. For centuries, the Christians have had a CEO, a board of directors, a corp of middle management, all the trappings of a very organized company. Heck, even most Protestant faiths have some form of organization. You can't just declare yourself a priest.
I agree Bill O"Reilly was smoking something when he try to argue that Christainity was a philosphy and not a religion.
- the religion based on the person and teachings of Jesus of Nazareth, or its beliefs and practices
- Christian quality or character: his Christianity sustained him
What I do not understand is why he would shy away from the arguement that any public display secular or non-secular is protected by the First Amenament
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
A Christmas tree, or manger scene are symbols of a Christian Holy day and has been a US tradition. This is a country made up of Christians and not a Christian country like you see in the Middle East where the leaders of the country are non-secular. If any local, state, or federal government wants to have a Christmas symbol to adorn its grounds it has the right based on the First Amendment. If an Atheist objects, too bad. Only recourse is to convince the elected officials to take it down using any other reason than it is religious based. Now if the local, state and federal government passes a law stating you need to recite the Lord's Prayer or recite passages from the Qu'ran, now we have issues. The First Amendment is quite clear on that issue. These public officals who are bowing to the squeaky wheels over this issue need to vote in new government officials who are not politically correct and who have read the US constitution.
The war on Christmas is silly. The war on folks who do understand the First Amendment is real.
If I was Bill O"Reilly I would of asked his guest show me the law that says Christianity is the religion of the land. I would also ask him why Christians cannot exercise their freedom of speech by displaying a Christmas tree in a public place. In both cases, the First Amendment protects the Christmas tradition and the freedom to display symbols of the holiday.
Conservatives have done everything they can to highjack Jesus and make him whatever they want. But this tops everything I've heard from these Right Wingnut jobs.
Jesus is not God? That is the heart of the "philosophy?" God sent his Son to die on the Cross so we all could be saved. If Jesus is not God, then all those who worship him are doomed.
Faux News has just condemned their viewers to eternal damnation.
I always thought that's what Rove and Karen Hughes were up to by striving to fool the GOP redneck base but now O'Reilly has brazenly admitted it. Explains why a sexy fertility Goddess like Palin is one of their star commentators?
I'm looking forward to the fallout that is sure to come from the Religious Right. I can see Franklin Graham and Pat Robertson gunning for Billo and Murdock, too. Or not. Let's see if they and Huckabee backs this O'Reilly blasphemy.
This just might be the break Jesus has been waiting for to get back His religion from the barbarians.
Hardly... High Priestess at best...
Goddesses have to be smarter than that...
You know fun fact because I'm an anthropology nerd what we think of today as "christianity" is not the way the faith as a whole has always been. This is similar to the ability of priests to marry for a thousand years of Western Orthodox history however it goes far beyond just this. By that I mean among the first christians there were many, many beliefs. Some believed Jesus himself was god, not a messenger or son but god himself. Others believed he was a part of the godhead as is most popular today(think father, son, holy spirit). There were even others who did not believe Jesus himself was innately divine and was a person with the most connection to god to ever exist. These gnostics thought that he had a special relationship that others could achieve by following his teachings.
There were disputes about the priesthood and allowing women to join it since the very beginning.
In short "christianity" is not was never a monolith, there were many beliefs in the early days and so the only reason people believe they are right is because that's what they've been told by the church. I wonder if any evangelicals actually realize the reason they believe in jesus as god, christmas, easter, blah blah is because of the catholic church with the teavangelicals despise.
Still a religion though so obviously Bill is bat crap crazy to think otherwise
reading this article covering religion msnbc is mocking religion . i am glad i saw this article today also . the bible is a manual about life with instructions on how to live your life ect . having said this you can choose to belive or not belive . iam a beliver and know first hand god loves you and wants you to trust him . there is no god than one god ,and god has a son ,and his name is jesus . having said this jesus said for loving me you will be percuted , and he made a promice of this and i see msnbc percuting christains for their belifes in god . i will tell you i am not ashamed to love god and you can percute me till the day i die ok . becasue in the end i will win and all other belives who have faith in god and not in banks , poloticans , 401k plans , their jobs , their money . my faith is in god and godis first in my life and i see last in anyone who belives the crap on this station says about god honoring people . may god save your souls .
Now, now, Lawbaker, I hardly think that someone exercising their free speech or freedom of the press qualifies as "percuting" you because their beliefs are different and you have to hear them. Feeding you to the lions, that would be persecuting you. Burning you at the stake, that would be persecution. Let's not cheapen what thousands upon thousands of Christians through history and around the world have gone through by calling it "persecution" when other Americans simply disagree with us and say so.
I once thought my boss was God, until I had to fix his car so he could get home.
The Invention of Religion has been a work-in-progress.
* At first it gave us hope of controlling the weather. Then it started promising us protection from the truth of our mortality. And of course it must supply all the answers to questions of morality. Big goals, yes? A time machine may be easier to construct.
* To make myself feel better about being mortal, I believe the Universe to be truly infinite. No beginning and no end. That kind of Infinite. I remember when NASA turned the Hubble Telescope to the blackest part of empty space they could find. They then saw billions and billions more galaxies. What if our Big Bang Theory only covers our little-local-pop in the bigger world. As the Universe is infinite, then so are the possibilities. Therefore there must be, in this infinity, at least one other identical me dealing with the same crap somewhere else in this vast expanse. Then of course, I can give my other me wishes of good hope and better advice. No much of a religion, I have to admit. But it does make me feel better.
* Did you know you can now vote most every year? I heard we may even get to vote again as soon as 2013?! Why am I getting the feeling I should now run out into the backyard and yell that at the top of my lungs into the universe? Sorry, that must be just my religion talking again.
The Universe is both finite and unbounded. It has a size but it makes no sense to discuss an outside. In all four dimensions. Further, the existence of the Universe is very sensitive to initial conditions. Very small changes would cause it to go poof.
In the single word FAITH is all the proof that anyone needs, the Popes rewriting of the phantoms of history, the lengthy study following one unsupported statement after another in ever widening circles, filling hefty tomes in sacred vaults. The persons who speak here could not support even the first commandment without eternal conflict. None of these words can lead to the betterment of the world; each of these words makes that goal more difficult.
Any of these words that attack any possible idea will not add one person to the faithful. The path to God cannot be made by laying down more and more bitter words, by proposing and disposing of augments made to make that path longer. The blind man who is deaf and cannot smell or feel has a better chance of finding FAITH than all who spew their words, write their unreadable tomes and make destructive nonsense.
Were all that was said here limited to one word FAITH then this would be an article of FAITH and nothing more needed.
Those of you who can do good for someone else but do not, would feel no worse than if you were forgiven for all that you have done to take from some else, but person of FAITH would not accept anything from you.
The word is FAITH and not one word more.
Wow. Merry Christmas everyone..
Wow.
How many Christians are on board with this?
I this to say that Muslims that admire Jesus are also Christians? Does this alleged admiration imply that some Muslims are not bloodthirsty zealots?
If one need not believe Jesus is God to be a Christian and admiring him is enough, is it okay to NOT believe that Jesus was the annointed one/messenger/Messiah/Christ? That bring Jews into the fold?
If this admiration of the peaceful teachings of the Nazarene carpenter are all that is needed, are these the "Judeo-Christian values so vaguely referred to by conservatives that I previously thought were closed-minded? If so, perhaps Muslim admirers should not be left out and they should henceforth refer to them more accurately as "Judeo-Crhistian-Muslim beliefs out nation was founded on"?
I would consider that real progress in conservative philosophy and I would owe them an apology.
I look forward to the general assent of other conservative leaders and my dish of steaming hot crow to dine upon.
Dang it. NOW you delete Pat? I just finished replying!!! And in all fairness, I meant every word of it.