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Last week, the Obama administration presented congressional Republicans with a formal offer in their ongoing fiscal talks, and challenged GOP leaders to come up with a plan of their own. Today, House Speaker John Boehner (R-Ohio) and the House Republican leadership sent a letter to the White House that's been described as a "counteroffer," but that's not quite correct.
House Speaker John Boehner on Monday sent a counter offer to President Obama to avoid the looming fiscal cliff that raises $800 billion without increasing tax raise tax rates on top earners and makes $1.4 trillion in cuts and reforms to entitlement and discretionary spending programs.
Boehner's offer does not outline how to deal with a country fast approaching its debt limit and sequestrations' across-the-board spending cuts.
So, what's the pitch? Under this proposal, Republicans would keep all of the Bush-era tax rates, but accept $800 billion in new revenue. How? Through "through pro-growth tax reform that closes special-interest loopholes and deductions while lowering rates."
From there, the GOP leaders want to cut $600 billion from Medicare and Medicaid; cut $300 billion from mandatory programs; cut $200 billion by changing the consumer price index; and then cut another $300 billion in further discretionary spending.
To call this a "counteroffer" is to strip the word of meaning. Under the GOP plan, Republicans get the more than $1 trillion in spending cuts Obama already gave them; Republicans get the entitlement cuts they want; Republicans get hundreds of billions of dollars in additional cuts to programs they haven't identified; and Republicans get all of the Bush-era tax rates they've prioritized.
This isn't a "counteroffer"; it's a Christmas wish list written by kids without access to calculators.
But Democrats would get $800 billion in new revenue, right? Well, no, probably not -- Boehner says he can get the money by closing "loopholes and deductions," but we know that's not true. Either GOP officials would start forcing the middle class to feel the pinch, or they'd fall far short of $800 billion.
What's more, notice that the Republicans' letter doesn't actually include real details. Sure, some numbers are thrown around, but I can just as easily write a letter to the Speaker promising to raise $18 gajillion by selling unicorns to Bigfoot -- the numbers don't mean anything unless they're backed up by substantive policies.
Postscript: In case you were wondering -- I was -- the letter makes no reference to GOP leaders' willingness to consider extending unemployment aid, extending the payroll tax break, raising the debt ceiling, or investing so much as a penny in economic growth policies.
One should generally be reluctant to make broad assumptions, but I suspect the Republicans' silence on these issues suggests they're not open to the possibility.
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What the?
They act like Romney won. Good grief
No but wait ...the trickle down tax fairy is coming... all will be well........
With the UBER RICH. It has worked so well before.
What is amazing to me is that you Democrats are so G*^ Da@# dumb. I know that President Obama won the popularity contest, but then so did Snooky last year. Popularity only payes the bill in Hollywood. What part of $1 trillion overspending don't you get. For you morons that don't understand basic math 16% of all money spent by the government was borrowed from China. Four years straight we have just put stuff like Solyndra on a credit card and when we have maxxed out the CC we ask for a credit increase ( which is the reason for the credit down grade).
Sick-n-effen-stupid did you know that if we taxed the UBER RICH at 90% with no deductions that we could pay the governments bill for a total of 3 DAYS. What about the other 362 days of the year. President Obama has no plan he has been fighting for 4 years so he could cover 12 days of spending out of those 4 years. You dumb asses talk like the Republicans are fighting for themselves. They are fighting to stop the government form spending OUR money, if the Republicans win the American people win.
You sound like the spoiled teenager that just wants more and more from their parents but doesn't understand that someone has to work to pay for all of this stuff.
chemdard's post translated:
"I am a right wing troll that has absolutely no idea what I am saying, but I am really really mad that my guy lost."
You're welcome.
Sounds like we would be far better off to let the bush cuts expire and accept the automatic cuts under their sequester proposal.Seriously.
Paul S. Campbell, sounds like a plan to me!! I couldn't agree more.
Yeah, seems chemdard missed the whole part about how Medicare and SS don't add one dime to the actual deficit or debt and are actually running surpluses which are being and have been used for 30 plus years to fund the debt. This whole proposal is just another way to continue to eek out temporary gains for the very very wealthy while stealing from the real job creators (the middle class and working poor).
chemdmd, just so you understand, here is what will happen if the income gap is not closed. The economy will collapse. It is a consumer driven economy where the consumers (middle class and working poor) are not making any gains (and in fact, have incurred massive losses) that will fund the spending needed for continued economic growth. Hear is a clue. Please read a book by a reputable source (i.e. Nobody that has ever written for WND or appeared on Fox News as a regular guest) on economics.
I don't know if Chemdmd is a troll but he sure is effen stupid.
chemdmd
Since you have been so tacky as to start out with name calling, I can assume you dont really have any facts. President Obama won the Presidency, not a popularity contest. That means the nation supports his plan. Majority rules. The GOP is dead and still doesnt know it. Crying about spending isnt the problem the nation cares about and it truly isnt our biggest priority right now.
More than half the nation is morons yet you were blessed with such wisdom?? Yawn.
Actually let's look at what he said constructively. In a democracy popularity is ummm... the only thing that actually counts? If Snooky had been running for governer that would have assured her of being able to do whatever she wanted in the office because the people who voted for her believed that she could do what she said. If the Republican candidate didn't win it's because he failed to convince enough people that his ideas would achieve the goals the people wanted.
Now onto bigger things. No one is talking about taxing the rich to death. What we are saying is that it might be necessary for EVERYONE's taxes to go up so that we can pay for the social and infrastructure projects that everyone agrees collectively that we need.
I just don't understand the resistance to paying more taxes? Have we really become a society that wants something for nothing? We wanted to pay for 2 wars on that credit card, but let our roads and schools fall to ruin. We want a huge military, but scoff when someone suggests raising taxes to cover it.
@chemdmd Try watching this video, it's just a few minutes, and see if you get a different perspective on where this debt came from. And if what the video says is true, maybe we don't want to leave it to the repubs to solve the problem. http://www.upworthy.com/the-complete-guide-of-what-to-blame-for-our-debt-problem-brought-to-you-by-math?c=ufb1
chemdmd, Mnmillie, first rule:
You're each suspended for a day for violating #1 of the Code of Honor.
Gridlock is good.
Mr McKnight, SS adds to the deficit currently, where did you think the interest payments from the "special fund" come from? General revenues. (Income taxes)
Meanwhile the Medicare HI fund has been in deficit since 2008.
http://www.ssa.gov/oact/trsum/index.html
Awww now blanks,
Good of you to come to the aid of a fellow troll!
Sooo cute!
LOL!!!
Romney must be adivising McConnell and Boehner. Having analysed the election results they now know they have to appeal to a wider portion of the population. To do this they will continue to fight for tax cuts for the world's richest people and keep their foot on the throat of the 98%. Once people get used to the pain they will support the Republicans and their warped agenda.
Tell McConnell and Boehner to pass the middleclass tax cuts now without negotiation and without delay. Don't hold the middleclass hostage to give the worlds richest people any more taxcuts that they don't need.
Tell Boehner and McConnell what you want them to do and what you think of the job they have been doing, copy the links and post them everywhere.
http://www.mcconnell.senate.gov/public/index.cfm?p=ContactForm
http://www.speaker.gov/Contact
So if the Bush tax cuts were so bad and the Clinton era taxes were so good, wouldn't letting the tax cuts expire for all please the Democrats and the sharp cuts to Pentagon and entitlement spending please the fiscal hawk Republicans? Seems like a reasonable compromise to me.
Hey , Go back to the top of the page ~ I Think that boehner has got Cockaroaches in his hair - look !!!
What's so odd is that the same people who are the most resistant to the idea of raising taxes (who are hoping to get something for nothing) are the ones who complain about the "gifts" minorities and the poor get from government. Well I say odd...it's not all that odd...it's coming from a place of privilege. It's the idea that if my taxes aren't benefiting me explicitly, then I don't want to pay them.
@chemdmd-
Loud and completely wrong as usual. GOP needs to GAC. (Get A Clue) The people don't want to do what you want to do. if you look at the picture, these people look petty, in denial, and beaten. While stubbornly clinging to a failed ideology.
How pathetic.
Hank- compromise will come eventually, but right now the deal is, let's keep taxes as they are for below $250K, which in my book is well above middle class. The people want tax rates to go up for those above that amount.
hrn212, yes it's not odd when we see that there are people saying "gifts", when they are speaking about those not in the upper tier. But those who are in the upper tier do not see their own "gifts" from government.
TARP, Subsidies, Huge tax cuts for 12 years and no trickle down. Tax Credits- which I would agree with if the tax credit is beneficial to jobs and/or other general public benefit.
It is difficult, if not impossible, to deal with, negotiate with, or even work with flimflam!
Yes, Boehner is offering flimflam! -Kevo
It is. They're just playing games. Slatting stuff down on the desk of the President that hasn't been given proper review?
These are individuals in our government, put there by The People, playing games.
As a mature sane adult, I really loathe this.
Boehner's so damn drunk most of the time, he doesn't even know what he's saying. Grover just puts it in front of him and he signs it.
^Absolutely, Boehner has "drinking problem"/self-centered/ego driven written all over him! You nailed it Karen.
Why do people keep voting for them? If I failed to do my job in such a grossly incompetent manner, I'd be fired.
The short answer is, they didn't. Without gerrymandering, the House would've swung substantially to the Democrats, and given them a comfortable majority.
The Republicans are only surviving on technicalities at this point, and that won't/can't last forever.
It will last for another 10 years at least, until the redistricting after the next census. If dems don't start working more at the state and local level, it STILL will go on year after year, because as long as repubs control state houses, they will continue to gerrymander to stay in power.
Because they're Our Kind of People and the only bulwark we have against the UnAmerican Hordes.
@uffdaguy. Maybe not, Wehn the gerrymandering took place after the Census it was based on that information a that given point in time. I am not sure but, it seems to me that if certain demographics change even in that short period of time what looks like a safe district might not be so secure.
For instance solid republican district median age of voting republicans 57 years that means half of the electorate is over 57 and subject to a higher death rate than say the median age of a democrat at 52. So there could be more democrats than Republicans come the next election or of in 2000 the district went from 24.5% minority to 37 % in 2012 by 2014 it could be 40% just enough to tip the scales (which is why voter suppression can be so important).
Of course this can go both ways but I don't think that is likely given the over all demographic changes in our country.
So... even though we won the election... we should all be afraid of Republican Primary opponents... I long for the good old days when elections mattered...
Boehner at first talked like he was ready to compromise, then Grover Norquist jerked his chain, as well as any republican that signalled a willingness to work with Obama. It is just so sad but I do think we will be going over the fiscal cliff. Maybe the new congress will be able to get things done especially if the senate rewrites the rules to prevent abuse of the filibuster (I think they should actually have to filibuster for hours) and secret holds. We should know who is blocking legislation and why.
Golly gee whiz, Steve, you're sounding cynical. Of course, you're fully correct.
Are there adults who take what the Congressional R's say at face value?? And they are allowed to drive, and have children?? And vote?
here's MY counter offer, Boner: "Nothing."
But I do have a horse's head I will put in you bed- just to show you how "serious" I am.
Bigfoot is a job creator, while many of the wealthy are not.
I have to rent "The Godfather".
I am pretty sure Ezra said it was "Part 2." :)
Are we supposed to feel sorry for them, are you kidding me? They look like a miserable bunch of people who are sore losers, and are so out of touch with America, they are so behind in the times, it's not funny. They're falling way behind the energy that is now flowing freely through out great nation.
To play Devil's Advocate: The president offered a Progressive proposal on how to do the debt reduction, and now we actually have a "formal" plan to go off of on the Republican's side (even though it is a re-hash to their 2010 and 2011 plans).
Now they can start negotiating. The President can give SOME of his wish-list for SOME of the Republican's wish-list and vice-versa.
NOTE: Even though there are less specifics than you would like on both ends, they can at least TALK about the spending & cuts that both proposals have...
P.S. We can't kill them for not having a plan and then excoriate them when they come out with a plan we disagree with. I commend them for actually putting out a plan with numbers - even if those numbers are false. They put their name to a plan, and now they are accountable to that plan.
I think this is a fair rebuttal. I was kind've thinking the same thing: it's not really fair to call a plan "not a real plan" on the basis of you not agreeing with it. However it isn't a plan making any attempt to compromise which I do think takes away credibility from the Republican cry that they are the ones trying to work with Democrats, but those big ol' mean Dummy-rats won't work with them.
Now hopefully the president stands firm and doesn't give anything away without verifying he's getting something in return.
Sorry Big - stop with the false equivalences. The President offered up a plan with specifics; the GOTP came up with "well over here, over there, we'll tell you when we get to that" trust US bs, once again - they're getting excoriated because once again when negotiating - you're counter-offer must give something and they've given N-O-T-H-I-N-G! So they should expect to be excoriated!
President = 1 House GOTP = 0
Next time Bonehead, get serious!! Democrats stand fast!! Mr. President - don't cave - we got your back!!
you cannot negotiate from fantasy ...
for instance - there are about $150B that can be clawed back by "closing loopholes and limiting deductions" if you do so from the same people who would be affected by the rate hike ...
this cannot be negotiated, it is arithmetic
An offer with no specifics is not a "plan." Obama needs to demand how they plan to get from point A to point B in order to confirm that their terms have any value.
Big - You can't negotiate with terrorists.
What is the President supposed to do, slap an F on it and return it for clarification? I am pretty sure this is not how business is negotiated in those mahogany and marble board rooms.
And aren't they under a time limit? Isn't there a looming "fiscal cliff" the right was so up in arms about roughly a month ago? What have they been doing all this time, besides obviously not working on a detailed plan?
I agree BigJayNJ. The President put out his proposal, and the GOP said it wasn't a "serious" offer. The GOP countered, and now some on our side want to say it's not a "serious" counter-offer.
Granted, there are differences, but not to the extend that it justifies a blanket dismissal of their counter-offer. They don't have details as to how they'll raise the revenue they set a target for- that's a very legit complaint, but at the same time, I don't believe the President detailed where his $300B savings in Medicare would come from (I could very well be wrong on that last point, and if so, it does severely hurt my argument).
What I think is the more important thing when looking at their counter-offer though is how unpopular their proposals are. With the President's proposal, each individual part of the proposal has public support (from my perspective), whereas with the Republicans' counter-proposal, I don't think their individual items are popular (except that unidentified "cuts" can be popular, just as a "generic Republican" can poll better than a specific candidate).
And so now the job is to compare and contrast. Would people rather have the hundreds of billions of cuts that the Republicans want, or would they prefer the President's proposal. I think the latter will prevail.
The President should just say no to their "plan" and let everything go over the cliff. Wham, Bam, Thank you, Ma'am!!
#10.6 - Whining about the urban vote, railing against the reintroduction of a real filibuster, desperately searching for a solitary woman to put as a chairperson for a committee, and their favorite pastime, pretending that their guy won, that the GOP in the House didn't win by screwing with the rules, and that they have a mandate to be just as obstructionist and non-useful as they were for the past 4 years. THAT'S what they've been doing.
Remember Ryan/Romney--"you can't score our plan, so trust our numbers"?
It's the same thing here. Saying we'll raise $800 million by closing loopholes--but then don't say what loopholes will be closed--not a plan. And I guess that will include "dynamic scoring" too (back to Voodoo again). Not a plan.
It would be great if the Republicans presented a real plan that could be scored by the CBO, i.e. it uses real numbers and not make-believe. Then we could have a real debate/negotiation. Right now, it's just a vaporous cynical stunt.
You have a much broader definition of the word "plan" than I do. To me, a "plan" is a blueprint for concrete action, not a list of destinations with no plausible way of figuring out how to get there. Their "plan" is really just a restatement of their election talking points. There is no there, there.
We don't need to negotiate with the non-negotiation team of no. We just wait, and let the bush taxs cuts expire, and watch them want to negotiate. Then we can turn screws.
I'm becoming convinced that they're actually as innumerate as they appear, and not just betting on the ignorance of their base (and most of the MSM).
I fail to believe that all of these people cannot do arithmetic, they can see the impact of a tax hike on their personal income easily enough.
This malarkey comes from having to "negotiate" from inside the constraints the Party handlers have set for them, constraints which do not allow for any inconveniencing of those who funded GOP campaigns and own their collective conservative butts; constraints insisting on pushing all the sacrifice and fiscal accountability onto lower income shoulders. The constraints are irrational, thus the right put forth irrational "plans".
The opening line of Boehner's letter referes, in the first line to:
... the status quo election we just had ...
I want the drugs they take.
For Boehner's part it's probably single malt scotch!
Your all completely right!
The debt doesnt matter, we should be spending even more than we take in and we should all have $30 an hour jobs handed to us straight out of high school. Of course that would make a McDonalds cheeseburger aprox. $18 but hell, im a non go-getter make a fanstatic wage!
Genious.
If the Republicans were worried about the debt, they would have no problem going over the cliff... the status quo reduces the deficit far more than anything being proposed. It just does it primarily with tax hikes.
johnnymoses -
didn't they teach you about spell-check in high school or grammar or ... ???
oops, never mind
That's the infuriating irony of it all isn't it? Tea party types like Johnymoses, obsessed with the debt and deficit, are actually AGAINST measures that would make tremendous strides in getting our fiscal house in order.
Why is that Johnnym?
Look, Republicans have zero credibility on the debt, as every republican still in congress that was in office during the Bu$h years voted for all the wars, all the tax cuts, everything that drives our debt now.
And the tea partiers? What have they done in the house over the last 2 years they've held power? How many abortion bills as opposed to any other bill?
Please.
I guess that is why the gop congress passed $40 billion in tax cuts last summer with out paying for them , because they are SERIOUS about the deficit
No! No! No! All the debt magically appeared when Obama took office. Spending is not the problem. It is disingenuous for Republicans to talk about the debt when they were responsible for the debt via two tax cuts and two unfunded wars. Those two items are responsible for a lot of the debt. Republicans don't want to negotiate in good faith nor have they acted in good faith. Let the clock tick down to January 1. After that date, the Republicans will get serious about the negotiations when taxes go up, the sequester begins because everyone, including the banks, Chamber of Commerce, Wall Street and the business community will be blaming the Republicans. Then they will have to worry about Dems making a harder bargain and the 2014 elections
The reason this is not a counter offer is because of its lack of specificity. Numbers without details are meaningless. You can't say you want to cut x dollars from medicare, for example, without saying what part or parts of medicare and have anyone consider the proposal to be serious. That is not the same thing as rejecting it because one doesn't like it. It's rejecting it because one can't tell what it is.
Concur. I'd love to see a Republican use this technique at a car dealership.
The TEApublicans do give the appearance of being the classical sore loser. "You won but I will not give up ANYTHING." To lose big and not be able to realize and acknowledge it is certainly One Foolish Idea!
Survey.
Negotiating technique that Boehner has used successfully before?
Boehner trying to appease the tea party members.
Boehner doesn't have a clue what he's doing?
I'm going for a mix of 1 and 2, but mostly 2.
Boehner trying to appease the tea party members
(who are not able to read an election- that we did not vote for what they are putting forth)
Now trying desperately to pin the possibility of the cliff being President Obama's fault. This tired old tactic did not work on the election. Their tired old proposals were rejected by American voters. Like Matthews said:
John Boehner was not elected by the American People. Even those that did not vote for Obama say that taxes on the upper incomes should go up!
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/07/16/tax-hike-for-rich_n_1677826.html
And please look at the election results to the right on the above link.
http://www.upi.com/Business_News/2012/10/25/Poll-Let-tax-rates-for-wealthy-expire/UPI-13241351178797/
Why didn't they just send a freakin' email? 'Uh uh I'm THINKING this is what we'll do!' What a bunch of maroons...it's right up there with their 4 page glossy paged plan from a couple of years ago...
I think they are trying to sell or Counter Offer with a Ryan Type Plan???? Didn't WE Vote against that??
It does seem as if Boehner is referring to the Ryan plan, which was eviscerated (and mocked) by actual numbers wonks during the election. The plan that even Ryan did not want to mention in much detail because the particulars were so deeply unpopular with voters. The plan that Romney kept trying to distance himself from, without being specific in what way his own ideas differed. The plan that, along with the ugly social platform ideas that the fiscal plan was intended to implement, We the People hated enough to stand in 7 hour lines to prevent. Yes, that plan. Or so it appears. He is vague enough to back away from it, if need be.
No. Sorry, but that's no counter-offer, Mr. B. Put specifics on the table like a grownup. Run them up the flagpole and see if they fly. Try to convince the voters of America that your ideas are, while deeply unpopular, what is needed to save the country. Never mind that you all failed miserably at just that in the months leading up to November 6, even when not being specific. Hey, be a man. Go up to the front door, introduce your plan forthrightly and see if the People will let you in -- stop trying to sneak in the window like a thief.
Dear Rachel Maddow;
Please help U.S. get our White House Petition signed - to get a honorable investigation into the Mitt Romney/ Bain Capital ("retroactive") covered up crimes of 2001?
http://www.politicususa.com/doj-investigate-mitt-romneys-serial-fraud-perjury.html
No way you can get to 18 gagillion selling unicorns to Bigfoot. There just aren't more than twelve or thirteen gagillion in unicorns out there, and Bigfoot lost most of its equity in the Loch Ness merger.
Saying that you will offer unicorns and rainbows as a plan is just plane stupid.
Plane stupid? Is that the dimension you tea party f*cktards live in? Thanks for clearing that up.
Citizen Pain - I believe Neil C was talking about the Reptilians offering unicorns and rainbows, rather than a specific plan. Click on his name to read some of his other comments, and you'll probably agree you misread what he said.
Pssst, hey bonehead your scratcing the wrong end! Your brain is a lot lower.I know it must be hard to find though given it is nearly non-existant.
Our enemies are innovative and resourceful, and so are we. They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
George Bush—Washington, D.C., Aug. 5, 2004
Dang and I assumed he misspoke!
Please correct me if I'm wrong but are we paying for Congress's healthcare for life?
You're wrong.
There are numerous ways to actually find out what we are paying for, up to and including "The Google".
It likely wouldn't do for me to explain it, you'd either dismiss it as "my opinion", or simply not remember it 6 months from now. Unless you do the work yourself, it's not likely to remain an important question for you; until it occurs to you again.
Wow, Michael, that was a pretty ugly response to a simple question.
slow to learn. all the rest have to before they change their tune