Associated Press
They're nowhere near close.
After several days of silence in the ongoing fiscal talks, there was a flurry of activity yesterday, with President Obama and House Speaker Boehner not only speaking to one another, but even trading new offers in the hopes of moving closer to a resolution. So, is this evidence of progress? Not really.
For his part, the president is making new concessions, telling the Republican leader he would accept $1.4 trillion in new revenue -- down from $1.6 trillion in his previous proposal -- and Obama is prepared to take a package that includes $600 billion in spending cuts, which is $200 billion more than the president originally planned.
But if there were hopes that Boehner would reciprocate in kind, those hopes were soon dashed.
Two sources familiar with the Obama-Boehner call yesterday described it to NBC News as a "tense" conversation. Amid dueling, new proposals, Boehner proposed a permanent extension of existing tax rates for the wealthy, a Democratic source familiar with the call told NBC's Kristen Welker.
Several other news organizations have reported the same thing.
In other words, with time running out, Boehner's first offer made no concessions whatsoever. His second offer seeks to permanently lock in lower rates on income above $250,000 -- the one thing the president has said cannot be included in any deal.
It's almost as if the Speaker isn't serious about working towards a resolution to the standoff he and his party chose to create.
In the meantime, Boehner also hasn't detailed specifically what he wants in the form of entitlement cuts, nor has he spelled out how he expects to find $800 billion in new revenue without touching tax rates.
House GOP leaders told their members this morning that it's likely they'll have to work the week between Christmas and New Year's. Of course, if Boehner is still demanding a permanent tax break for millionaires and billionaires, it's hard to see the point of even continuing with the talks.
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They are just going to let the sequester happen and then vote on reseting the rate for the middle class. The rest of this is just posturing for the base.
You're probably right and that's the best we can hope for.
Just SOMEBODY make sure to rein in the Obama Adm's knee-jerk reflex to make additional concessions WHETHER OR NOT Boehner makes any.
I'm just keeping my fingers crossed they've finally learned their lesson on this.
The sequester is not going to happen. Even the threat of it makes the Repubs want a deal before 2012 ends. This time it is the Repubs who want to work through Christmas if necessary because Obama is not budging from what he has said is going to be the outcome of the "cliff deal" negotiations and they know it.
What Chris said. Obama seems like he can't help himself from surrendering.
Come on, now! Name me one case where Obama has "surrendered." Did he surrender on the auto bailout, on getting Osama bin Laden, on getting our troops out of Iraq, on ending Don't Ask Don't Tell, on ... etc.? Please be specific. Where, oh, where has he "surrendered"?
Easy. Obama surrendered the last lame duck when he extended the Bush tax cuts for two full years in exchange for some unemployment insurance extention. That is like trading Babe Ruth for Juan Pierre.
Are you kidding me? Obama is the "Capitulator-in-Chief." From the July 31, 2011 Washington Post: "Liberals were furious as the terms of the agreement came into focus Sunday, and yet another capitulation by Obama on economic policy..."
Or, how about this from a July 21, 2011 Daily Kos article: "So it looks like President Obama is, once again, capitulating to the GOP. Obama has bit hard on the GOP's phony 'debt crisis' meme, he's been dancing to the GOP's tune from day one of his presidency. Now we are about to get cuts to Social Security & Medicare, the eligibility age is going to likely rise, but the wealthy get to keep their massive tax cuts yet again. If this is what a Democratic victory looks like then I shudder to think what defeat must be like."
Try googling the phrase, "Obama capitulates" and watch your screen fill up!
Exactly right, Dave and Lebowsky. Does anyone recall Boehner saying he got '98% of what [he] wanted"? Obama doesn't need to make any concessions, nor does he need to make any more offers until the Republicans come up with some specifics. All we have now are vague promises they'll find new revenue, maybe by eliminating loopholes (and I'm betting the eliminated loopholes will hurt the middle class more that the wealthy).
Obama's tendency to cave is exactly why we're in this position. The Republicans know if they just keep saying 'no' they'll eventually get what they want. And just like the bully that stole your lunch money in the 5th grade, the more often you give in, the more difficult it becomes to finally stand your ground.
Go off the danged cliff! Talks can resume in Jan, and the world won't end, but I'll bet the Republicans will begin to have second thoughts on how far they can push. I'm very disappointed. Not surprised, but disappointed.
Obama's still better than Romney, however. I'll try to remember that...
Stop trying to cut 'necessary' spending. It's what the American electorate have supported and besides waste and fraud should not be treated as if it's money we are just casuallyblowing for fun. It's what we want,have voted for,have decided we ought to do so quit trying to end it and just find a way to pay for it.
Jimes is a winger gop loser folks , he is jerking your chains
So far we have a different obama , the gop are not going to cave and neither is obama at this late point , and the gop will not just up and pass payroll tax cuts after Jan. .....They are taking america down along with their party folks ....Obama and the dems just need to hold tight with the working class and destroy the gop with the poison they are willingly drinking on their own
Thank you Chris!
Google any legislator's "name" and "capitulates". Obama has been dealing with terrorists willing to let unemployment benefits expire when the economy was in a recession and no jobs were available unless the very wealthy got their tax cuts extended...you call that capitulation? The very people who swore to block every single thing Obama would try to do even if it was previously supported by these same republicans...everthing. How does a drowning man capitulate? Obama has disappointed many times however when I think of who else could have done any better I regain my gratitude.
How about "cut off the food supply to the people lest I be accused of capitulating...it's what these food stuffed terrorists republicans demand if I don't give in."
Obama, from his name on, forces us to face our own hypocrisy. Jalf black, half white, Hussein for a middle name- ha. He thought the GOP was there to help legislate and therefore willing to negotiate an economic recovery...hahaha...not economic power hungry self serving selfish small minded bought and paid for delusional icons of greed. There is no bargaining or compromising or even negotiating with these extremists...it's a waste of time and energy and this is what Obama is coming to realize and yet he doesn't want to accept...he is losing hope which is an invitation not capitulation...which is why we can both support. criticize and pressure him at the same time. Ending the senate filibuster will definitely help in getting what we all want.
I can't believe some of these posts. They don't sound Democratic. They don't sound Progressive. I think they are T.E.A. sympathizers or maybe they have drunk too much T.E.A.
Obama surrender????? Never. The Kochs surrender? Maybe, but they will push the timeline as far as they can, hoping for a better deal than they will get. It's not about Boehner, it's about the Kochs and Company.
Unemployment compensation extension that helped millions and kept millions from becoming unemployed by itself was worth the 2010 agreement, but it was not all Obama got for the American people. The tax cuts for 98% were continued. Or do some forget that in their disappointment that the 2% also had their tax cuts continued? In 2010, Obama negotiated a great deal for the American people.
Boehner is a bump in the road on the way to the Fiscal Curb.
To call this a circus is an insult to clowns. Boehner makes Spanish language soap operas look like Citizen Kane.
I wonder if he has any control of the caucus at all? Given that slimy little putz Eric Cantor, who can't be trusted further than he can be seen with your eyes closed, and that "zombie-eyed granny killer" (in Charles Pierce's epic words) Paul Ryan, Bonehead has to have a complete detail of armed bodyguards just to keep track of those two traitors.
"I wonder if he has any control of the caucus at all?"
Only so far as caucus members are reluctant to be seen in open rebellion with him, for fear of the Dems getting mileage out of it. They don't fear Boehner, but many of them, including the Teajadists, are anxious to retain whatever credibility they have left that comes from being seen as a unified caucus.
That's starting to unravel, of course. I don't think Boehner's re-election as Speaker is anything like secure. Cantor carries a shiv everywhere he goes these days, and is just waiting for the right moment. ("Et tu, Eric?")
It's two years old and now behind a paywall, but Taibbi's profile of the Speaker, "The Crying Shame of John Boehner," really is essential reading on the subject.
The media constantly strokes the fantasies of the far Right, but maybe it is time for sensible centrist legislators to conclude the timing of this prominent Boehner display is not the kind of God's gift the Nation needs for Christmas. Maybe it is time for the centrists to say enough of the national embarrassment of white male compensation- enough of the beltway T parties where the cocktail of choice is Androgel mixed with DHA.
When legislative sanity is made a radical notion, the idea of moderates is a radical idea. Maybe it is time for moderates to embrace their radicalism and do something radically sane.
Presented for your consideration, a scene with a small group of moderate republicans who check out of the Clown Show and slip away in the dead of night to join Dems to form a Unity caucus- Say their big Carrot is the promise of prominent committee appointments and the election of a centrist of national prominence from the GOP. Interestingly, as pointed out by a recent Congressional Research Study, the Speaker of the House does not have to be a member of Congress. (Atlantic article) So such a Unity Caucus could elect a nationally known moderate such as a Jon Huntsman, Colin Powell or Charlie Crist - elected to lead the centrist caucus. It is an unconventional idea, but with Dem 2012 gains, the numbers needed are not large, and such House revolts are not unprecedented. GOP progressives joined with democrats in 1910 against an imperious Speaker named Cannon, and a Speaker vote that took 9 ballots in 1923 (also due to disaffected republicans).
Granted, this not inconceivable scenario would require some boldness- Nearly two dozen moderate republican representatives would need real balls to make it happen. For all the white male dominance memes, such big thinking in the center Right has withered to non existence. I could extend the male appendage metaphor here, but I suppose enough has been said about low T of the depressed, dejected and aging white angry men of the Far Right.
Good for the P-resident I guess, he should really tell Boehner to go back to the house and wait there..
I'll give the president only half a kudo. It's disturbing that's he's already making concessions to his original offer and Boehner is merrily going the opposite way.
I think we can all safely say the republicans are lunatics. There's no working with these idiots. Let the chips fall as they may.
Obama should just go on christmas break with the wife and kids , and tell dunderhead when him and the stooges get their act together , he will put on his leather air force one jacket , hop on the jet , and come back and pat them all on the head.... ba by
I hope the President stands his ground. No way should he give in. What really ticks me off is Boehner goes on TV posturing about the President not specifying cuts, etc., yet he hasn't given even a fraction of an inch. It's all for his base and he knows it. Well guess what Mr. Speaker. Your base is going to get a tax hike, compliments of YOU and I hope they blame you and the rest of your party because you don't understand the concept of NEGOTIATE.
I agree - don't compromise another inch at this point. Let Jan. 1 get here, and see how long it takes Boehner to hear rich boys whine about their taxes and lost DoD contracts before he comes back and negotiates.
We survived the Clinton tax rates before - we can do it again. Heck, as I recall, we had a healthy economy AND a budget surplus back then.
I was thinking about the Clinton years too . I was making a fraction of what I am now , but seemed to be so much better off .
Let Boner cry all he wants about cuts. Let him the tell the President what cuts he wants. He won't cause it will be the death nell for the GOP.
House GOP leaders told their members this morning that it's likely they'll have to work the week between Christmas and New Year's.
Really? What's the point? This ain't that complicated.
Maybe they can use that time for some group therapy.
Oh, but it is that complicated. Remember those defense cuts in the sequester. The Repubs do not want them to happen but they also do not want the taxes on the 2% to go up. So, as the saying goes, "they are between a rock and a hard place."
Hot dog! Stick to your death march bonehead.
"For his part, the president is making new concessions . . . "
President Obama. You have to be one of THE worst negotiators in this country.
How many times have we seen Boehner refuse to make ONE concession and you move 3/4ths of the way to his side?
America has TOLD you what they want. DO IT. That does NOT involve making more spending concessions.
I respectfully disagree.
Yes, Obama went from $1.6T to $1.4T. When the two sides are far apart, one of them needs to make a move. Obama chose to do so, in order to point out that he is at least negotiating. That $200B isn't gone--since the offer was not accepted,nothing has changed.
I really believe that the President has learned the lessons from 2011. And more to the point, with no more elections to worry about, he can afford to be patient and take a little heat. Especially when it is clear that Boehner et al are the ones really in the hot seat.
It is far too early for Boehner to cave in. It's all Kabuki Theatre until at least 12/31.
It will be fun to see if the President calls the Congress in to Special Session.
Thanks for the comment.
At the same time, that we know of, what concessions has Boehner made?
It will be fun to see if the President calls the Congress in to Special Session.
It would be MORE"fun" to see if they go...they don't have any respect for him, so I could see a terrible fog rolling in EVERYWHERE or an airline strike or every single House republican being on a hunting trip "away" from their phones.
I don't trust them any further than I could throw them.
None. Either he made some that haven't been reported or he made none at all. Which is, I think, the consensus view: Boehner has Obama over a barrel and isn't going to settle for less than unconditional surrender.
Boehner got 97% of what he wanted... only now he doesn't want them anymore. "I just want to look more tanned...I just want to look good"... that is the depth of Boehner.
Most often used phrase, "I wasn't listening...or thinking...which ever one applies. Now refill my glass".
For those who have been paying attention to the progressive groups who are "whipping" the Senate to oppose cuts to Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid, both Senators Boxer and Feinstein should no longer be in the "wobbly class" as they are releasing statements today opposing those changes and cuts. I (and many others) called their offices. You should check the list at TPM and call your senator today.
Bonehead and his gang of Confederate traitors need to go DOWN.
Boxer is great, Feinstein is only OK. Good to see Feinstein stepping up for the people, she is suspect as far as I am concerned.
Good to hear. I made calls to both offices on a number of occasions. Glad that they are finally getting the message. I don't think Boxer is an issue. It's Feinstein whose feet we must keep to the fire.
"It's almost as if the Speaker isn't serious about working towards a resolution to the standoff he and his party chose to create."
No, the Speaker isn't serious about working towards a resolution, and as long as they're not acknowledging the mess they're making and the lamestream media doesn't call them out on it - it will be as though it never happened!
At least until it's time to raise the debt limit!
The best deal for the Democrats right now is no deal. The Military Industrial complex will HAMMER the GOP after Jan 1. Instead of offering new concessions, by the way, President Obama should be moving in the opposite direction.
"Instead of offering new concessions, by the way, President Obama should be moving in the opposite direction."
Amen. For every day the impasse continues, the President should add something else that he wants. Like the Twelve Days of Christmas, but Twelve Days of Clift-mas. If Obama starts to cave, the House and Senate caucuses need to stage an intervention, reminding him that he won, with more seats in both houses, and more votes for House seats total.
And they need to hand Boehner a list of things that the American people want to see in an agreement, the only changes to Medicare being means testing and ability for Medicare to negotiate with the drug companies, not changing age to 67. No COLA changes for Social Security.
How about the tiny tax on financial transactions that raise billions of dollars? How about ALL income being subject to Social Security and Medicare taxes, instead of having a top limit?
AMEN, brothahs! I always say, those who whine the most about what they want, should be given more of what they don't want.
No COLA changes for Social Security.
NOT THAT! I just got my 2013 SS Award Letter yesterday and my COLA for the year is ten bucks. Actually that's more than 1.7% of my SS, but they may have been embarrassed to only raise it $7.
Bad idea, that.
People forget the deals between Pharma and the admin to get Obamacare approved
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702303830204577446470015843822.html
It sounds like Boehner has prodded the president into negotiating with himself again - like last time. I hope that's not true. If it is true, then that's the real story here.
I think that Chris Van Hollen may have the right of it -- Boehner can't (or won't) negotiate until he wins the Speakership for the next Congress because any compromise he makes now will threaten his position and encourage Tom Price's insurgency. As Speakers of the House go, Boehner is among the weakest; he's the Speaker of the House not Speaker of the House Republican Caucus, though he treats his position as the latter because he lives in fear of being undermined by the right flank.
Republicans across the country are proceeding as if last month's election never even happened. The GOP is in a fantasyland of denial and dangerous obstinacy. Real Americans are being abated by a conservative agenda of, by, and for the super rich elites. Working folks are bearing the brunt of the GOP's backwards attempts at governing policy. We need the president to step in and protect folks, not author false compromises and giveaways to the most extreme conservative elements in this country. Elections have consequences. The GOP must be made to understand this point. - pp
Why shouldn't they? Their seats are safe, barring a primary challenge from the farther right.
The negotiations between Obama and Boehner are not just between Boehner and Obama. On the Republican side, the skilled power brokers, the Kochs and Company, still have a nearly 50 vote majority, including all the T.E.A. members. The Kochs have enough votes to block any "cliff deal" that they do not like. They will fight to the end to not pay any more than they have to in taxes. They are not interested in getting spending cuts in entitlements. They never have been. They make them too much money. They throw them out there because they get the predictable response. Keep in mind, the Kochs are skilled at pushing their agenda. Michigan's new right to work law is an example. Eventually, the Kochs will let Boehner and the Republicans close the deal, but they will hold out to the bitter end -- the end of 2012. The defense sequestation is what the Kochs and Company don't want to happen, so look for the final deal to include something there. If it had been up to Boehner, he and Obama would have had a deal on the debt ceiling crisis, but it wasn't up to him. It was what the Kochs and their T.E.A.s were willing to accept.
In negotiations, the Kochs learned that they had met their match when Obama negotiated the "Cliff deal." But they got wanted most and that was delay. The Bush tax expiration date was delayed two years.
The article didn't mention it, but if Obama doesn't retract his offer in the face of Boehner's refusal to reciprocate, there is something wrong.
Boehner Floor Speech ... Mar 22, 2010, Washington, Congressman John Boehner (R-West Chester)
Put your campaign donations where the public can take good transparent look!
Sorry private meeting!
Pay attention. The Republicans want to shrink the government so that they can "drown it in a bathtub"
So no deal on taxes, no deal on sequester, no deal on stimulus and no deal on debt ceiling The net result is a crisis that forces the shrinking of government.
President Obama, do not negotiate with these hacks.
I'm getting anxious about these "negotiations". It's beginning to feel like the president is negotiating with himself and not Boehner. PLEASE, not this time. LET THE TAX CUTS EXPIRE if you have to and then watch the Republicans scramble.
Boehner has no incentive to accept anything less than unconditional surrender [1], because if they don't get it they can crash the economy in 2013 and blame Obama for it, ruining his chances of being re-elected to a third term.
[1] Although without any proposal from the Democrats to oppose, the Republicans are having a hard time coming up with any terms to impose.
So there's a bill that's passed (?) the senate extending the tax cuts for the 98%, and if it were to pass the house it would effectively destroy the democrats biggest leverage for any future negotiations?
And I was hopeing we would firm up the GOP being the Stupid Party...
I agree, Rusty. Obama needs to pile on a huge list of everything the Democrats want to get passed this year, then add a new one every time Boehner says no. Eventually he'll get the message that he has zero to bargain with. The fiscal cliff wont hurt anyone that bad except the military, and they could use the trimming.
I am at a loss as to why the House (in particular) is not taking more heat for this fiscal 'cliff'. Weren't they responsible for putting it in place as part of the debt ceiling negotiations back in 2010/2011?
It is difficult to say how much of this is political theater. Before the House adjourns, some Republicans will defect and sign the Dem discharge petition. That seems to be the route that Boehner can allow without jeopardizing his job and those of some Republicans who are not afraid of TP challenges. I would watch for this to happen some time next week.
The story seems to be that Boehner's last deal was a joke, I think it is time we wake up and realize that every Republican deal is the same as this NO REAL DEAL being offered.
You go bohner , but if you must give taxes then dont agree to raise defict none .