Yup. He screwed the American people with his fealty to insurance companies when trying to get something good for us all in writing Obamacare.

Etc.

If you don't want to be in a union, then you should get a job where there is no union.

You really have no understanding of how unions work. The whole point is that workers gather together and make decisions by majority vote. This move by the Michigan fascists (i.e. GOP) forbids unions from working by majority rule because now any small group can ignore the majority vote.

Seriously, are you actually trying to argue that it is acceptable for a group's members to refuse to pay their membership dues? By essentially making it illegal for unions to collect their dues, the fascists (i.e. GOP) are ensuring that unions don't have the funding to maintain their influence. And that's just one way that you completely fail to understand how correct Ms. Maddow really is.

Tom, what if I had a job and then a union came in? And, why should I have to be a member of the union?

Shade, there are lots of organizations where membership is voluntary and they work from majority rule with out huge defectors. No is making it illegal to collect dues from members. It is making it illegal to collect dues from NON-members.

Again, what right is being strip? What are you entitled to that you can not do?

If you don't want to pay your dues then why should you expect to benefit from union wages, worker safety. holiday leave and everything else the unions provide you with. All your are saying is you want to get freebies just because you feel your entitled. Unions do not take over businesses either as you imply but rather workers vote unions in to take care of them come contract renewal rather then accepting whatever the boss feels like giving you or not giving you, like that 10 cent raise he agreed to give you when you started working for him, a union makes sure he gives you that raise.

You're already in deep, Rob, so stop digging. Yes they *are* making it illegal to collect dues from members. Union members paying their dues is now voluntary in Michigan, which means the unions can no longer make it a requirement for membership. This will drain their funding, which in turn will drain their influence.

It was never legal for unions to make non-members pay membership dues, so you've basically pulled that one right out of thin air.

Again, you understand nothing. Ms. Maddow is absolutely right; this has stripped Michigan unions of many of their rights.

"Tom, what if I had a job and then a union came in? And, why should I have to be a member of the union?"

RobDon, I would say that is the most difficult situation, but the solution is the same. There is no one saying you have to work there and if you don't like the conditions where you work then get another job.

I believe the majority of people that are working in a union shop had the union in place when they hired.

Union members paying their dues is now voluntary in Michigan, which means the unions can no longer make it a requirement for membership.

Well Shade Trail the true union members will still pay. The same union members that protested inside and outside the capital yesterday should still pay their dues if they truly believe in the unions. If not, then the protest was a sham. In fact, I believe that is exactly what will happen. People that have good union jobs will most likely continue to pay into the union to keep that leverage. And I too think "stripping the rights of unions" is a little much.

If paying union dues is truly voluntary, then you will definitely have a significant percentage that will freeload. This will create a hostile workforce. At the start I could see company's giving non-union members bonus's and perks that are not in the union contract. This will entice more people to go non-union. The downward spiral will soon follow.

I love how no one can name the right the unions had but now do not have.

whomitmay, if unions provide benefit, people will remain members and pay dues. Most people have no problem with that. Your argument implies many current union members want something for nothing, so they will stop paying dues. Is that the caliber of worker you think make up unions?

Shade,

Yes they *are* making it illegal to collect dues from members.

No, they are not. If a member doesn't pay his dues, he's no longer a member. Duh?

And to:

It was never legal for unions to make non-members pay membership dues, so you've basically pulled that one right out of thin air.

I didn't pull it "right out of thin air," let me quote from the NYTimes which says that I had to pay union dues to work.

But advocates of the legislation, which outlaws requirements that workers pay fees to unions as a condition of employment, lauded the day as a historic turning point for economic health in Michigan, and some Republicans predicted that their victory here would embolden other states to enact similar measures.

If you find where you can hold a union job, not be a member, and not pay dues, please let me know. They don't care about your membership, they care about your dues. Denounce the union, but they conintue to require due payment. That's what this law corrects.

We live in a country that is ruled by the majority while protecting the rights of the minority (or have you forgotten). I should be able to choose whether I want to be a member of a union or not, and not be forced to pay dues as a condition of employment.

Lastly,

There is no one saying you have to work there and if you don't like the conditions where you work then get another job.

But there was someone saying I had to pay union dues to work there.

Tom,

If paying union dues is truly voluntary, then you will definitely have a significant percentage that will freeload.

You are saying that the caliber of union worker is that a significant number want to be "freeloaders?" I disagree. I think most hard working individuals have no problem paying for things of value.

No representation without taxation. End of discussion.

RobDon,

I think that there may be 1 in 10 that may want to freeload. That 10% is a significant amount to me. I've held the jobs of union steward and negotiator and have seen how much chaos a few people can cause. Not only do these people cause chaos but the company will add to the chaos. Also I think it still may be the case when a non-union member gets in trouble the union still has the responsibility to represent him. If you don't represent that person to the best of your ability then the union may be sued along with the company in court. It may be found the the union was in partnership with the company to have that person terminated. The result of which can mean the union will have to pay half of all back pay. That's a big deal to small unions.

The average ANNUAL cost of union dues is $400, or $33.33 per month, or $15.17 per paycheck (assuming you get paid every other week). I’m getting that statistic from an anti-union website. The annual weekly pay for a union worker in 2010 was $917; for a non-union worker in a comparable position and industry it was $717 (according to the Bureau of Labor Statistics). Two hundred dollars less, every week. So these right-to-work laws are saying, “Hurray, you get the choice to not pay $33 per month, and in exchange, you can make $800 less per month!”

The only reason - the ONLY reason - to strip down unions is to benefit the employers. What benefit does the employee get? They save a few extra bucks on union dues? And in exchange, they have no voice to speak for them, no one to bargain for better working conditions, and no way to organize with their fellow employees.

I understand, at a basic level, the idea that it doesn’t seem fair to FORCE people to join a union and pay dues. But those dues are what the union uses to defend the workers’ rights. Without funding, the unions cease to exist, and the workers are more vulnerable to the whims of their employer. Unemployment is lower, wages are higher, and workers have more benefits in states that don’t have right-to-work (anti-union) laws. Yes, there are circumstances of corrupt people working for unions... but there are tons more of them working for corporations and governments of every level, and unions are one of the few forces that can stand up to those forces.

You both make valid points. While I've never worked union jobs, when I was an educator I did belong to a teachers union because it offered some benefits. But, it also had agendas (multiple issues) very, very far outside the field of education. I eventually found the benefits I needed from another source and stopped being a member of the teacher's union. It was nice to have that choice.

No one has ever been forced to join a union as a requirement to work the labor relations act made that illegal decade ago. Obviously someone hasn't a clue how this works. Unions are formed when a vote of the majority of workers collectively to decide their collective fate. If you lose that and hate that fact so much find a job with a different set of work conditions. It is not unreasonable to have different work atmospheres.

When the union is formed members, full members, pay dues which fund representation costs. If one doe not wish to join you do not have to but you still have to pay for the representation that you do receive. Employers bargain with union as a group, whether one is a member of not if that workplace i unionized that negotiation with the union is affecting your contract. You do not bargain as an individual with management, they have no reason to care about you alone. The collective union bargaining set the basics or ground floor condition that all workers will receive because it is what the majority of the workers will want, that's why there's a union in the first place. So no union do you think you are going to bargain alone and have management care? You think these corporations will waste that time on little ole you? You think you're that important to them?

The strength of unions is their membership, together they can be equals with management. Only together, not alone. Only together do the worker have power. So if you don't want anyone to fight for higher wage and benefit to be higher which is good for you because that means your wages will be higher as you will receive the same contract the union rep and owner agree to.

So you don't want someone to fight for higher wage for you? You don't care for getting as much benefits as possible? So be it. If you're fine with that, okay, it is your right but don't be surprised or whine when your working for less. Don't cry. Course we all know you wouldn't like that very much now would you....how tough are you now babies......

The right likes to talk about how people shouldn't ever have to deal with the less convenient like paying dues but they never say they want real choice. You want all the benefits but not have to pay for them. That's what it's about you think you should get all the good aspects of your choice without any of the bad consequences that might result. If non-union workers get fired and union members keep their jobs you will cry and complain it is not fair. Well you had the opportunity to be part of that union, you chose not to and you have to deal with consequences of that choice good or bad.

Frankly it's more of this pervasive denialist idea which is rooted is privatizing all the benefits while socializing all the risks and dressing that up as the true "free" market

I worked at two non-union jobs. The pay was lower than anywhere else, and the dirty tricks they pulled with overtime and work breaks was the pits. I can only wish those jobs on the people that are supportive of anti-union laws.

Me, too. But I wish I coud protect pro-union folks.

This is from Knoxville, Tenness to explain why you, as a small business owner, should join the Chamber of Commerce. Perhaps some of the reasons explain the reasons for joining a union.

"By joining your local Chamber, you are banding together with other area businesses to take action in the best interest of the whole community. The result? Both the businesses and the community prosper. As a Chamber member:

• You tap into an extensive volunteer base that acts as an arm of your business by providing marketing and promotional assistance and educational opportunities, and by working to improve the quality of life in your community — all in the name of member businesses!
• Your membership investment is 100% tax deductible as a business expense as long as your Chamber does not engage in lobbying at the state or national level.
• Your investment is returned to the community through better legislation, greater productivity, quality education, a quality workforce, and area advancement.
• You support the community that supports your business.

This information was provided by the Loudon County Chamber of Commerce. http://scoreknox.org/

All businesses, more or less, benefit from a chamber of commerce. Those who pay for membership retain extra benefits not available to non-member businesses. The people who work for the businesses have no representation. A union represents all workers, sometimes even those who work in a different industry. That representation costs money.

Aside from this basic, I think, bit of logic, I'm a bit baffled that, if one supplements their low wages with food stamps she is a freeloader, but if someone benefits from union representation without paying for it, that person is 'free'.

Obviously someone hasn't a clue how this works....If one doe not wish to join you do not have to but you still have to pay for the representation that you do receive.

If your "someone" reference is to me, you are incorrect. I do understand "how this works." Here's an earlier comment by me:

No is making it illegal to collect dues from members. It is making it illegal to collect dues from NON-members.

Now, if you just read the comment prior to yours you certainly could imply I don't know how it works because I used the term "stopped being a member." But, I was a member because dues paid for benefits, when I fould I could purchase the benefits elsewhere without having to support things I did not agree with, I did. Sorry for my breivity being misleading but my previous comments should help clarify.

This is from Knoxville, Tenness to explain why you, as a small business owner, should join the Chamber of Commerce. Perhaps some of the reasons explain the reasons for joining a union.

Why not force businesses to pay "Chamber of Commerce" fees? I agree with the "reasons" but it is the forcing of paying dues whether you want to be a member or not, want your money used in the manner the organization chooses or not.

A union represents all workers...

There's no way the organization can fully represent all workers to their best interest, especially when it becomes so political involved. People have differences of opinion, different needs, etc. While I certainly belong to organizations with which I do not agree 100%, I am not forced to financial contribute to that organization (expcept if you consider government and taxes, lol).

I'm with you. I've love Reid to punch McConnell right in the mouth. Reid, being an ex-boxer, and McConnell being nothing more than flacid dickweed would win in a knockout.

I agree. I just can't stand the way people treat others sometimes. Romney's 'joke' that the President wants to "heal the planet' bothered me because our planet and the people on it really do need to heal, and how can that happen when so many people just want to fight. But sometimes the only way to protect ourselves is to fight because there is usually someone out there who wants more than they have a right to. I wonder what it feels like to be a person with no compassion - pretty cold, I would think.

If that's the case, I've got 8 years of Bush representation and two wars' worth of money coming back to me.

Well put Tom. Of course these are the same people who want a giant aggressive military running around telling other nations what to do, a giant electrified border fence with auto defense guns while drones fly overhead of the moat full of alligators......social security, medicare, etc. They want all these thing the problem is they don't think they should have to pay for them. These folks want all the gains none of the risks or liabilities.

ELLYN, Union Contract's set condition's for Non Union Worker's,ie, WAGES, The sad part That People just don't get, Is the ONLY reason they are getting what Pay they are is because of this. For any Non Union Worker to think that if Union's Vanish, That the Wages are going to be Maintained is Laughable. This is the one issue that ALL Working People really need to understand. WE are what is keeping THEIR Wage where it is right now. IF WE go, So goes their Wage, What would stop employer's from just offering MIN. WAGE? No Contract, No stopping the Employer.