I don't bother paying attention to anything Fox "news" says or Mike Huckabee thinks, so I'd like to go ahead and ask a question that I have not heard anyone ask:

Why, in a bucolic, affluent, peaceful, crime-free, picturesque New England village, does a woman, a kindergarden teacher, own two semi-automatic handguns and a .223 semi-automatic rifle?

I wondered that to. The possibilities are:

a) She was frightened

b) She bought them for her son because he was under age

c) Her son bought them using her identity because he was under age

Regardless of how the guns were purchased it seems obvious that there is no way in hell the son should have had access to them.

Dragoon, that is the discussion I'd like to hear and the answer I'd love to have. It like the old adage, "What's wrong with this picture?"

Myself, having two sons would be reason number one not to be packing that kind of heat.

A,B,and C on your comment would be my next three reasons not to have those guns.

DING!

But wow, what an insecure, petty, gratuitous, and just plain cruel God they worship.

So IdiotsAndHatersBowDown, that would be one way of looking at this. But my take is you are over-thinking this whole thing. Their god behaves exactly as if s/he didn't exist at all. Hmmmmmm.

India, I'm more curious if she owned a gun safe.

Re: Fisher and Huckabee

In a perfect world where their alleged god person lives there would be lightning bolts dispatched post haste to zot them both as purveyors of hate and intolerance.

The only thing that surprises me that they didn't ask for money too.

They are both agents of Satan if you choose to believe that particular fairy tale

When a wingnut brings that comment up, I always defend it. Obama was right.

Dragoon21b and India,

(Listening to Alex, UP and MHP this morning.) It turns out the mother was an enthusiast, and quite proficient in knowledge and use of guns. She also passed this knowledge on to her two sons.

Sounds like responsible parenting to a point.

We may never know what the circumstances of her one son's mental illness were, but apparently she trusted him enough to not lock the guns up. After all, she had educated her sons about guns. The last thing a mother would ever think is of her son pulling the trigger against her. It's tragic it was the last thing she saw.

God had nothing to do with any of this, and to stand on the pulpit and profess that God let it happen because we "cast out" God, is absurd, and falsely implies God is vengeful because he can't stand criticism. These guys need something to do I guess, and capitalizing on murder = donations, so, I'm sure the boards are lighting up with desparate calls from frightened fringe lunatics eager to send money "for the cause."

As said before, it's the only thread these religious nut cases have to hold on to. The scary part is, they legislate on that, and we have to fight it.

@lock

A gun safe, trigger locks, hell even removing and securing the magazines from the pistols would have gone a long way to either preventing or at least making this thing a lot more unlikely.

and on the what kind of God is this note: Evidently one who exacts vengeance and renders judgment not by Jovian lightning bolt but by inflicting selective homicidal insanity. In a nutshell...evidently God makes you crazy. Which explains the behavior of a lot of people I can think of

@knob I just saw your post. I was career military, I know more than most people about weapons and their safekeeping. Being an enthusiast makes her lack of simple prudent safeguards just that much worse. People keep talking about the "responsible and law abiding gun owners" Being safe is part of being responsible! If you are sleeping with a loaded Sig under your pillow you need to consider one of two things 1) Maybe you need help and 2) MOVING

I never cease to be amazed at the ease with which so many Christians give their god a pass for allowing evil things to happen.

If we have learned anything in this country in these past few years it is that the omnipotent false gods in this country can be defeated.

If we can defeat Romney/Ryan and the 2%, the Koch brothers, Sheldon Adelson, Grover Norquist, the corporate members of ALEC, FreedomWorks, Jim DeMint, the tea party, Wall Street, Rush Limbaugh, Karl Rove and Fox and all the rest of the GOP establishment, we can defeat the NRA.

Yes, it will be an uphill battle. But it is a battle worth fighting.

Kane

the thing for me is that everyone keeps talking about how "Polarized" our society has become. At this point I think it's the poles of Sanity v. Insanity

and I for one am sick of the crazy!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cgNTRRrpSjQ - W.L. - When the Children Cry

Dragoon21b,

My own time in the military gave me knowledge and proficiency with weapons, but I will not carry one, or keep one in my home. I enjoy shooting and used to rent a pistol at the range from time to time, because I wanted to stay proficient. It's been 6 years since I last fired a gun (to complete training before going to Iraq).

I guess my point was to say parents who educate their children about the guns they keep in the home, may bring on a false sense of security, then the children become adults themselves, so there's no need to lock them up. I could say that was the case here, but, what was she thinking? Was it her misguided instinct that she could trust her son with a weapon out in the open?

The fatal flaw, the terrible mistake, seems to always be the failure to keep weapons under lock and key.

India, Dragoon: I too have been wondering why a kindergarten teacher with a mentally disturbed son should own these guns. The news that is coming through right now on Alex Wit is that the mother was not actually a teacher at the school, although she may have been a substitute.

As for Huckabee and his claim that God has been driven out of the schools, his primitive concept of god has been taken out of the schools. Our concept of god and the nature of the divine has been evolving for thousands of years. If these people who idolize the Bible would actually read it, they would see that the Old Testament God is not the same god as the god of the New Testament. Our founding fathers, who immediate ancestors knew the consequences of fighting over the true nature of god, protected us from those who would try to force their concept of god onto those of us who may have a different concept of god.

The fatal flaw, the terrible mistake, seems to always be the failure to keep weapons under lock and key.

Bingo!

In the military, or law enforcement weapons are always either secured or under someones positive control and if they aren't there is hell to pay

In high schools, if a teenager plans to drive a cat, he/she is required to satisfactorily complete a Driver's Education course, then pass written and practical exams at the DMV before they are allowed to drive by themselves...

This is not only because cars and Rules of the Road are complicated and should ve studied, but because cars are dangerous, deadly weapons which take thousands of American lives each year... Not only the the Driver's Ed teacher watch his student for bad driving style or bad driving habits, he also evaluates him/her on temperament and ability to practice car safety...

You are required to obtain a license and carry it with you, along with the car registration, and present them to any law officer while operating a vehicle...

Any bloody fool can buy a gun if they appear old enough... Anyone can use a gun; all you need to do is flip the safety, point it and pull the trigger...

Cars have an obvious purpose, to travel as needed... Guns also have an obvious purpose, to threaten and kill...

Why can't there be a Gun Safety course, required to obtain a license to carry a gun? Why can't there be a national database of gun licensees, like a driver's license database, that tracks people who have been banned from wielding a firearm? Some people, like convicted felons or psychologically-challenged individuals, should lose their license at a court order or diagnosis from a psychologist... Giving, lending or selling a firearm or ammunition to anyone without a license should be a felony...

Everyone should have the right to purchase and bear arms, but only if they can prove they can use, clean and store them responsibly...

With every right should come responsibility... The leaders of the NRA ignore this at the peril of EVERYONE...

Rabbi Arthur Waskow from the Shalom Center has presented an excellent idea: people gathering nonviolently in front of the NRA HQ in DC and chanting:

Hey! Hey! NRA! How many kids did you kill today?!

And keep up the demonstrations until the NRA folds, which they would.

So anybody here who lives in DC - give it a thought and check out if people are doing this (Rabbi Waskow is going to lead at least some of them), and if they are - join them!

As to the posts about "responsible" gun owner parents. My father was a responsible gun owner and taught his two sons to use guns responsibly (in high school I was on the sharpshooting team, and a winner). One son went to war, came home and never touched a gun again. The younger son, who was always thought of as "sort of strange" turned out to be far more strange than anyone thought. He inherited the father's 23 guns, and when he was in one of his schizophrenic breaks, he would take them out and threaten himself with them as he thought of shooting himself to get rid of the voices. The only two times he ever "acted out" on those ideas was when I (the older brother) and his friends were intervening with him (he self-medicated with alcohol, marijuana and cocaine) and he pulled a shotgun out. We took it from him and disarmed it. A year later he pulled out the same shotgun, aimed it at me, and pulled the trigger twice (it was still unloaded, a fact he had forgotten). I called the cops, he was put in a psych hold for a week, they took the 23 guns. 30 days after he got out of the psych ward, he filed a restraining order against me which a judge upheld, and successfully got all his guns back.

Two things learned from all that: all the education in the world isn't going to help you if the offspring are crazy - which was the case with my late brother (he finally put one of the guns to use) and with this kid - and it's practically impossible to get the system to recognize a crazy person as being crazy and being a danger to themself and others and keeping the damn guns away from them. The "helping professions" have taken personal privacy to the point it is ridiculous - a family member who knows the person for all their life and can testify to event after event will be dismissed as a "non-expert" (the judge at the hearing for the restraining order didn't want to hear my description of my brother's mental state the night he pulled the gun).

The system is broken. On all levels.

#1.13 and 1.12, 1.19,

A-men to all three comments.

Knobson, She should have locked them up, though, shouldn't she. Too late to ask her what she was thinking.

I've not yet read or heard anything that clearly stated the mother of the shooter did or didn't have the guns under lock and key.

The comments re. the capacity of the mother to properly secure the guns are based on what?

The comments re. the capacity of the mother to properly secure the guns are based on what?

MY question is based on experience. Will we get an answer? Doubtful. Responsible gun ownership at all levels directly relates to social and civic responsibility.

TC, I am sorry to say the system has yet to take mental health care, the expediency of veteran benefits, and the safety of citizens responsibly. I am currently dealing with a similar situation, (so far without the guns, thankfully to responsible state gun laws.)

Let's hope Armslist finally has to answer to its part in facilitating private illegal gun sales. Both mass shooters Radcliffe Haughton and Demetry Smirnov bought their guns from private individuals through this site. Personally, I would also like to see private individuals held responsible for illegal sales. #bloodprofit http://newsandinsight.thomsonreuters.com/Legal/News/2012/12_-_December/Gun_website_sued_for_alleged_ties_to_slayings/

bflynch, #1.16,

Thanks for the response. Yes, I can assure you their the right-wing evangelicals probably know less about God than...Oh,...say...St. Thomas Aquinas.

God, as I see it, is Wholly Other. God is not "knowable"in the sense that we can know each other and this temporal world we inhabit. All religions of the world see God somewhat differently. I think the main thing is that God exists, and it is important to worship Him/Her in whatever religion you are born into or raised into, or convert to. In my case, from Anglican to Roman Catholic. If it brings morality and comfort to one's life, you've hit the right One.

TC, in 1.19, that rabbi has a great idea. NOW is the time that we can actually get the support to go after the NRA. But it means EVERYONE maintaining the intensity of feeling about this issue that they now have for as long as it takes.

But you and I know that everyone, including the "talking heads" will fart their brains out on social media for a few days and then go on to something else and all will be forgotten within two weeks. Until the next time when we will repeat the same old cycle again.....

As for getting someone to do something about a mentally ill person - yea, I've had my own experiences with various law enforcement agencies calling me and telling me to "do something" about a crazy relative when there was NOT A THING I could do either!

In order to protect the mentally ill, most who are not violent, from imprisonment in mental institutions, we've gone too far the other way - so that it is virtually impossible to get a dangerous mentally ill person into an institution for extended treatment for their safety or for ours.

Mother of mass shooter "a survivalist", stocking up on weapons in readiness for an event. Gee, I wonder where she got THAT idea!

I can be moral without God. Any fool knows it's not ok to kill people, or even lie or steal. No one likes to be stolen from or lied to. God does nothing, people make excuses, though you rip human witnesses to shreds if they saw something and did nothing... Somehow you've put humans above God... Interesting. Until God cures everyone of cancer, not just a select few, I won't believe he cures any of them. Everything is not about you and your family, as long as you get yours (cures your family member of cancer) is the epitome of selfishness. They need to start charging people whose firearms are stolen, or "lost", with manslaughter if someone gets a hold of them and commits a crime with them. No amount of gun training will prevent this and just because someone has proven they can secure a firearm properly doesn't mean they will continue to do so.

#1.28 fWalsh.

I have to ask, with all due respect, where you think the idea that it is wrong to lie, kill, and steal came from. The force of your argument against those things came from somewhere, don't you think?

Please don't say, "the herd instinct for survival". That's a fallacious argument.

I respect your atheism, but I just don't understand it.

It is hardly a fallacious argument. Before there was a "God" known by the first "people" there was a need to survive as a group.

I respect your belief in religion but I just don't understand it!

@johnnymoses0, just in case: http://www.fcmha.org/hotline/

LOL, you beat me to it!!

1.19 -- We can thank Ronald Reagan for turning America into an open-air asylum where the patients are on the "honor system" to take their meds and show up for therapy appointments.

Hate to criticize the Huckster (not really), but I would not think we would want schools doing the religious indoctrination that the parents have the right and responsibility to do. But it's a nice talking point and a distraction, and a place to divert the blame. It may be possible that unless this woman had a well-stocked freezer and feeds a town of 20, all that firepower might keep God away from her home as well.

Our Founding Fathers were wise enough to make as the FIRST Amendment that government shall not establish or endorse any particular religion over any other (Separation of Church and State). much of the constitution is defined in the terms of the rights of the INDIVIDUAL. In that context, you as an INDIVIDUAL are allowed to practice your faith of choice freely, as long as the practice of said religion doesn't break established laws (couple of basic examples: Random human sacrifices, 'honor killings', interfering with others rights to practice THEIR faith freely etc.). Which is something much of the far right has a problem coming to terms with

Contrary to what those of the extreme right would have you believe, you ARE in fact allowed to pray in school (that moment of silence after the pledge of allegiance in most schools is for those who have a deep connection to their faith to pray silently), your allowed to have faith based groups in school. The difference is that neither the schools, nor the local, state and federal government is not TELLING you who to pray to or HOW to pray to them.

Even if the mother of the shooter did keep the guns locked up, all he could have done was asked to take a gun so he could go to a gun club to shoot at the firing range, then turn the gun on her when she gave it to him. We simply dont (and likely never will) the circumstances

Jonny? I respect your views, I don't share them. Have you thought of using the common sense your were born with to stop and think about the path your taking? There's also no cure for those with as much hate as you seem to be carrying around

1.17 "In the military, or law enforcement weapons are always either secured or under someones positive control and if they aren't there is hell to pay"

I was in the military too, and I am well aware of that control. I also know that such control is not an individual decision and is dictated by a centralized authority. That sort of positive control among civilians may be possible eventually, but it will certainly be unpopular, largely thanks to the anti-government hysteria so common on the right. Thanks to the rabid "Guns! Guns! More guns!" propaganda of the NRA and other elements on the right, this entire situation will most likely get much worse before it gets better, if it ever gets better, IMNSHO.

1.37 "I respect your views"

I hope you mean that you respect the general right to have an opinion. The malicious misinformation he spouted was in no way respectable.

I sincerely hope the two deleted posters have their guns removed post haste. It is that kind of hate and prejudice that is so frightening.

Fischer and Huckabee are making different arguments. Fischer is talking about the power of his god to protect people, and trying to justify why he doesn't do so. In this sense, it is very similar to the statements he and his ilk make after natural disasters, like saying god wouldn't protect New Orleans because of all the sexual immorality during Mardi Gras.

Huckabee is arguing that his god and his religion are the only basis for morality, and that de-emphasizing religion by separating it from state and public schools therefore leads to an immoral culture where people have no moral qualms preventing them from doing evil things. He is really speaking to the immorality of the shooter, something that would never come in to play in a natural disaster.

Technically, you don't even have to believe that there is a real, supernatural god for Huckabee's argument, while such a figure is central to Fischer's. They are both wrong, I believe, and both vile to use a tragedy to push their religious agendas, though.

http://atheism.about.com/

Nathan, best to ask them why God doesnt do anything when shootouts happen in churches. Or do people need to find a new church because the one they were attending was not worshiping the 'right God'?

The positions of people like this don't come from the depth of their faith but from the lack of it.

They can't tolerate any kind of descending philosophy or point of view because that would force them to accept the possibility that they might possibly be wrong.

I won't even go into the greed, the egotistical desire for power or the naked hypocrisy of people who take the teachings of Jesus Christ and then try to use them to justify doing the exact opposite

Mike Huckabee, faux preacher, scam artist, right-wing politician, has nothing to say to me whatsoever.

Well, "I'm off the air", would be OK.

As I've noted before:

Faith isn't the absence of doubt; it's the absence of certainty.

And these people, who've lost all semblance of doubt and espouse such hurtful and hateful rhetoric, are despicable in my view.

Just remember, he's a Southern Baptist. As Garrison Keillor says, never take one Southern Baptist fishing with you, or he'll drink all your beer. Take two, and they won't drink any.

My experience of Southern Baptist fundamentalists is they are weak people, mostly afraid of the world, and very afraid of themselves, so they wrap themselves in these rules (but make certain there is always forgivenness when they "fall off the wagon"), and proclaim their self-righteousness to convince themselves they are the chosen ones (which they know when they wake up at 0300 is not true). Mostly they're just morons, fools and losers.

In the Christian faith, Satan is the term used for the personification of evil. Satan is very powerful as a force for evil. Satan will come in the person of the "Good" and is very persuasive. The Biblical story of Adam and Eve shows the power of Satan's persuasiveness. In the wilderness, the people led by Moses became fearful because Moses had gone to receive the Ten Commandments and was gone so long, so they turn to worshipping the Golden Calf. But, Jesus, in the Wilderness, resisted Satan's seductive offer of power and riches and returned to preach his message of love and truth.

Today, evil is present in the world, but it is not what the modern day spokesmen for Satan, like Fischer and Huckabee, say it is. The evil that comes from too many pulpits is contrary to the teachings of Jesus. The "pro-life" clergymen who preaches that a fertilized egg is more important than the life and health of a woman are forces for evil, because they urge their congregations to go out and vote for political candidates who agree with them. It has worked for years and, even when their candidates pushed the argument to the extreme as happened in the 2012 elections with talk about "legitimate rape, these "good" preachers supported them. Evil speaks from pulpits across America on Sunday after Sunday. Fischer and Huckabee worship a God, but it is not the God that Jesus taught us to worship in the New Testament. God is Love and Oneness not hate and divisiveness.

#2.5 Jimes,

I believe that God is love. I believe that Evil can have a beautiful appearance. The Bible speaks of the devil as the most beautiful of the angels. I can believe that. I've seen evidence of that.

The problem comes about, (there's no good, PG 13 way to say this), that, if you dance with the devil, sooner or later he'll want to do more than just dance.

And out comes the theodicy! I love the mental manipulations that religions go through to reconcile their omnipotent, all knowing, all loving, all good God with reality.

@jonnymoses0

If you want to troll and flame you are going to have to do better than that. All I have gotten out of your posts so far is that your like the Frank Heart character in 9 to 5

a sexist, egotistical, lying, hypocritical bigot

So either contribute something in a manner that didn't come from a truck stop bathroom and prove you have an IQ of over 15 or go buy the new issue of Swank and jerk off somewhere else.

"...jerk off somewhere else."

People like that obviously derive an enormous amount of warped satisfaction by doing what they are doing.

This is the kind of guy who becomes a gun nut to make up for the fact his wee-wee is smaller than his pea-size ego. Guns as "penis replacement."

Same for the other two idiots.

Unable to remove this comment. Will recomment in a minute or two.

Angel#77 #2

You might learn a few things if you check out this website also:

http://atheism.about.com/

Mr. Huckleberry...sorry, Huckabee,

As a believing Catholic, may I point out that you are overlooking the fact that Catholic schools, just like the one in Newtown, still DO have school prayer.

(snark on)

Oh, but them cathaliks aren't real Christians, doncha know.

(snark off)

Ummm, I guess the Pledge of Allegiance "Under God" doesn't count?

If the murder of 20 innocent children cannot open Huckabee's heart, then he has abandoned God and all that God is.

And, as long as there is a mentality that everyone is for themselves, and no one else matters, these incidences will continue to happen. This attitude shuts down the ability to be empathetic towards others and to think of future consequences that a selfish action now will have.

People in Portland are still upset by the Clackamas Mall shooting. I have a friend who works with the wife of the man who was shot. So many people, and yet it really is a small world.

God gave US sense to enact protections.........car safety, water safety, etc.

We should have gun safety............but the NRA wants to make money at our expenxe of lives...........that is a choice............not God's will............

Dem Elizabeth, #4.1

Another example of "American exceptionalism", no common sense gun control as other civilized countries have.

And it is just people like Mike Huckabee who keep that evil exception going.

Agreed India...........I am more than sick of republicans and their indecent and immoral use of God's name in vain..............

DemElizabeth:

Exactly, and here's something else I can't see the logic of:

Pro-life/Pro-gun.

God gave use "free will". He does not interfere. Please leave God out of this. God had nothing to do with it. A human did it.

Perhaps God wants us to take responsibility and do what's right for the common good. We, as a society, need to figure out how to end the ever-increasing gun violence in our country. God has given us the tools (brains, hearts, hands) and we need to get to work. God has been patiently waiting.

My ex is a retired cop in a major city. He always said that your gun and your bullets should be more than 11 seconds away. Whether in a gun cabinet, locked, or they should be separated bullets in one area, the gun in another, so if you wake up in the night to a noise, you don't start shooting while half asleep. The right wing gun owners in my town in the midwest thought that was hilarious . That how could you protect yourself if your gun was that far away? they have their guns within a reach from the bed, where they can shoot immediately. Does anybody think this is nuts?

Re: #4.7

I can understand cowboys, who are sleeping out in the open, might want to have their gun handy in case "varmints" sneak up on them with no warning. (In movie and TV Westerns, this seemed to be a problem).

Anyone who thinks they need to have their gun handy inside their home so they can shoot immediately obviously live in fear and have not properly secured their homes.

Let's help them out:

They need to 1) make sure that their doors and windows are closed and locked, 2) have a security system installed and use it properly, 3) make sure that people who have keys and the security system codes are trustworthy ... there are probably be lots of other common sense steps they could take.

Wait ... I think there is a clue in the last sense ... "common sense". Depending on immediate access to a loaded gun for protection is not using common sense.

#4.8 Maphi,

I'd end up shooting the cat at 5:00AM. He likes to wake us by jumping on the bed.

Go back to fornicating with sheep, moron. It's what you're good at. But thanks for the demonstration of what ten generations of hillbilly incest creates.

fortynine 4, Please keep my name off your toxic vomit, sicko.

Not that I care what you think, but I am a pro life Catholic and I find your post disgusting and profane.

Fouty nine has a mental issue. He likes to troll ladies. Reminds me of a couple others. Too chicken @!$%# to just to post. Has to insult people. But hey, he's a republican. What else can we expect from a little person such as him?

Larry 74,

Yeah, he's one sick cookie. Guess I won't be going to mass in the morning since he says I've been excommunicated. LOL

I'm not even a liberal. Gosh, he keeps getting me wrong! Thank heavens his obscene remarks were deleted.

Thanks, newsvine.

the police response time in my area is one hour. these people were in their 80's . I wonder what would have happened if they had arms nearby.?

http://www.lakenewsonline.com/article/20121204/NEWS/121209600

oh by the way the article says they were shot but further examination showed they were stabbed with a phillips screwdriver.

Sigh,

People like you create their own realities, like the murderer was going to give the 80 year old couple time to get out their weapons and load them and then aim them. Yea, he was just going to stand there and let them shoot him, if only they had guns!!

Or maybe you think 80 year olds ought to shoot everyone who comes to the door?

What happened was a tragedy, but the 80 year old couple having guns wouldn't have stopped it.

You REALLY NEED to get out of that cloud your are living in!

and of course you have all the answers and know exactly what would have happened if they were armed and defended themselves against a guy with a screwdriver. by the way they were found in different rooms so it was not instantaneous. You were not there pal so your comment is meaningless. I know some chance is better than no chance.

Nah, I just know the difference between fantasy and reality. People who are intent on doing harm to you don't give you the chance to defend yourself.

Exactly, and here's something else I can't see the logic of:

Pro-life/Pro-gun.

Makes about as much sense as pro-choice / anti-war.

Liberals are hypocrites too.

how about this one pro-innocence anti-anti=murder does not seem to conflict. killing an innocent fetus vs killing a home invader hardly equivalent concepts.

Human life has consciousness. Before the seventh month of that brain function, it is nothing but a shell.

maybe. but still innocent protoplasm again. innocence vs evil still no moral equivalency.

And history is riddled with those who would justify forcing their personal "morality" on all others by a faction's institutionalized definition of "innocent" and "evil".

In other words, I would contest the burning of women as "witches" under the religious born justification of "evil", as much as I contest now men's attempts to make himself seem "Godlike" on the pretense that all fertilized eggs are his holy creation. Only HE creates souls. And mankind is arrogant to wish it to be seen otherwise.

Actually "HE" is really not appropriately stated for my purpose. "The One" would be more accurate in my view. Institutions have taught us this gender reference to anything one may hold to as higher and holy.

Only HE creates souls.

very true and therefore it is not up to you to judge when that soul enters the protoplasm. Not even science can quantify such and event who are you to determine it?

I am not a scientist, and can not adequately explain the recent advances in neurological prenatal medical research. The simplest explanation of what I consider "consciousness" (not autobiographic dependent) is that of the waking-brain. Prior to the waking up of brain function, all embryo brains are in a sleep state, and limited to neurological reflex reactions and automatic impulses.

My personal ideology and choices are not meant to be impositional on the entirety of the nation, Sir. State government control over every woman's reproductive system is an extreme invasion of government. For government to regulate a woman's health choices from the moment of egg fertilization, is to open the door to state ward of the zygote as a person, absent the woman's freedom over her own body, in effect making her the shell, and the zygote the person.

Abortions have declined on the national average over the decade, with the more restrictive reproductive rights states lagging in the reduction rate. Rationally, education and reproductive health resources available increase the responsible choices of women.

91% of US abortions are performed in the first trimester. It find it extremely reasonable to desire zero abortions in the final trimester (with exceptions of life and vital health of mother as determined under medical evaluation). To create draconian government invasive laws, and to eradicate clinics that serve women's reproductive health not only puts future mother's prenatal health at higher risk, it also raises the likelihood that abortions will be performed later in development. This is the sickest contradiction to the most valid argument of pro-lifers: concern for the more neurologically developed fetus. So if this basic argument is a sham, what is the real reason for the most extreme advocacy of "person-hood" for a fertilized egg? It sure as hell isn't for the mother, nor the healthy development of future children.

State government control over every woman's reproductive system is an extreme invasion of government. For government to regulate a woman's health choices from the moment of egg fertilization, is to open the door to state ward of the zygote as a person

while i don't sign on to the rest of your argument I can surely agree with the above statement. It is a crime of murder in many states to kill a baby in the womb by a violent attack on the mother without killing the mothers. So i would suggest there is already law in existence that gives personhood to a fetus. I spent last week with my sister who was on her death bet in a hospice. She had not conveyed one way or another if she had accepted Jesus as her savior. I felt it my duty to at least expose her to the possibility before she expired. Others felt this may have been irritating to her altho she was unable to voice one way or the other. Those who felt it was an imposition were thinking only of the moment while i was concerned with eternity. I understood their concern but i felt the stakes were very high indeed.

regardless of your attempt to provide the test of consciousnesses as the basis of life you are only speculating as i also am. I again suggest the stakes are different. if you are right no harm no foul. If i am the loss is greater. Since i am 70 the issue of salvation is more up front and personal than it was at 30 i have lost my three closest frinds and my sister this year. Acceptance of a savior if none exists does not have much consequence but failure to accept if one does exist is a pretty hefty price. You do not seem to be able to digest the difference of potential ultimate payment in this issue. i hope you do not make the wrong choice ultimately and it is in fact a personal choice not a governmental one. On this we agree.

Where are the Right to Lifers? Hiding. Evangelical churches and "News" outlets have championed the Right to Life, but it is fair to ask where these "champions" are when the victims are living, thinking, feeling children- When they are victims of Right wing gun politics that block any meaningful protections from these massacres?

I looked on the Fox news site to see how they would handle the story. No mention of the politics of gun control. Nothing about the NRA.

Instead, prominently displayed was a story: "Why does God allow evil?"

What a cop out. In the language of Muslim-Judeo-Christian spirituality, we have choice- we are the arms and legs of God. If we choose to be passive in the face of evil, that is our choice and the awesome force of law will exact the consequences. Why does God allow us to think that people have a right to the highest speed, highest quantity murder that the gun market can provide? Why does God allow us to vote for candidates for public office who have A ratings with the NRA?

Making the daily slaughter of citizens from guns (87 per day) the responsibility of God is not just stupid theology, it is pre-adolescent thinking about personal responsibility. What responsibilities do citizens have to take practical moral actions to combat immoral acts?

Look at how the Right has effectively gone after constitutional guarantees of a women's right to choose. Why cannot the Christian Left go after this asserted constitutional right to high speed, high body count murder? That is, the courts may have ruled that there is a right to own a gun, but you can make it extremely difficult to acquire one, and retain ownership without periodic re-registration.

I am talking about going way beyond providing some gun safety doilies to rest handguns on. In Virginia and Mississippi, onerous regulations are making it for clinics to provide abortions. Only one remains in MS. The courts have permitted much of this activity. Can't the Left use the same strategy?

Picture doing this for gun retail sales. Picture prohibiting manufacturers selling guns to anyone other than military or law enforcement entities. Picture programs to buy up and destroy guns.

The courts recognize the legitimacy of requiring proof of ownership of guns- and that unregistered guns may be confiscated. Fine. You can't drive a car without current registry, so make gun registry something that has to be annually renewed. As you must go in for car checks on pollution, gun owners must appear to have all guns checked for proper mechanical operation and maintenance. During the gun check, the owner must answer a series of psychological tests by a professional licensed for conducting these checks.

Law enforcement is compelled to confiscate unregistered guns and dispose of them within 90 days unless proof of ownership is produced. Gun owners have a right to be fairly compensated for the destruction of unregistered guns they later prove they own.

If they have a hard time finding a place to buy a gun in the rapidly drying up pool of weapons, then that is their problem.

But no problem- they can own as many guns as they want.

The time for talk is over. Such policies need to forced in states by the religious Left as a moral issue. It is not God that allows such evil. It is Us.

Brilliant JohnMesserly! Brilliant analogy with the unhinged-right's attempt to eliminate a woman's access to a legally provided medical service. Fight fire with fire. The second ammendment very clearly states "A well regulated militia". Let the regulations begin!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

John Messerly,#5.1

Spot on. 100% correct.

"Where are the Right to Lifers? Hiding. Evangelical churches and "News" outlets have championed the Right to Life, but it is fair to ask where these "champions" are when the victims are living, thinking, feeling children . . . "

John . . . That's always been the case. It's why they should be called "pro-birthers," not "pro-lifers." They've never cared about what happens once the baby is born. Better health care and nutrition, availability of child care and early childhood education programs, better schools, you name it. If it affects the quality of life of those children, they fight hard against creating and extending it.

What they really want to say (though few have had the courage to come right out with it) is: "After all, lady, you committed the sin of getting pregnant. Now you have to suffer the consequences."

lennybruce48 . . . That's what I thought once conservatives started going after abortion providers. Constitutional right to keep and bear arms? OK. Nothing in there about the right to buy guns.

Let's see how far they get once liberal states start outlawing gun shops. Or forcing everybody who wants one to go to one single location within that state to purchase one. Once they force potential gun owners to take a five-year long course in the history, use, and maintenance of guns. Once they charge $100,000 for a gun permit. Once they promulgate administrative regulations that suffocate current and potential gun owners in red tape.

In fact, that's the kind of thing I wish states like California, New York, Illinois, Massachusetts, and others with a more progressive populous--you know, the ones where the majority of the population actually lives--would do as a response to the conservatives' use of legislation and regulation to eliminate or curtail the availability of abortion, birth control, and family planning services.

Legislators in those states won't--because they're more tolerant--but they should. It would certainly force conservatives to think hard about using legislation as a weapon against perfectly legitimate practices with which they don't happen to agree.

Amy Goodman, Carolyn McCarthy, Jackie Hilly and NYC's deputy mayor Howard Wolfson were on UP with Chris Hayes this morning (if you didn't tivo it, here is a video link). Each of these guests provided excellent points, but two stuck out.

• Hilly confronted the NRA's fictional invincibility aura that they actively promote. For example, the number of guns owned is steadily climbing in the US to the point where soon there will be more guns than people. This gives the feeling of rising popularity and the political intimidation that anyone opposing guns is peeing into the wind. However Jackie Hilly points out that the percentage of gun owners is actually going down- that's true among men as well as women. So really the popularity of gun ownership is going down not up.
• Wolfson described Bloomberg's creation of a PAC to target a pro-NRA congressperson Joe Baca from California. Baca sponsored bills such as banning registration and gun locks in DC. Baca was defeated, and Bloomberg demonstrated that the NRA can be the kiss of death (Sacramento Bee story)

The Right to Lifers are just one army in the war to make America succumb to the powers of an evil empire. While the term, "evil empire" may sound harsh, it accurately describes the totality of the effort to gain power in America. The empire is led by the Koch Brothers and, like the commander of the Death Star in Star Wars, they sit back and command their armies. Karl Rove is the Darth Vader for the Empire. He devises the strategy. He uses the "wedges and win" strategy. The objective is to divide and conquer. Each army is organized to wage war on one issue, e.g. anti-abortion, anti-government, anti-minorities, anti-gun control, anti-immigrant, and anti-gay rights. Each army is well supplied with the money to provide the weapons and personnel necessary to prevail in their war front. Cheney provided the money through the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan and the very profitable war waged against the middle class and poor. Scalia provided the authorization to spend that money through Citizen United. Murdoch and a few of the .1%ers provided the channels for the armies to get their messages out (they own 80% of the media and have infiltrated much of the remaining 20%). They have employed abundant and talented spokespersons, "personalities" like Sean Hannity, Rush Limbaugh and Megyn Kelly. So, when it had everything in place, the empire struck. In the 2010 elections, they won in routs in state after state. In 2012, they continued to win and would have won more, if it had not been for the brilliant campaign of President Obama. The empire came close with Romney. He won 47% of the vote and probably would be president-elect, if Obama's organization had not convinced voters to stay in long lines during early voting and on election day.

The evil Koch empire is alive and strong. They still have the House and 24 states for the next two years. They know much can be done through ALEC and their lobbyists during that time. Then there is always 2014.

Thanks, I love Chris Hayes' show, but for once in its life, our cat let us sleep in!

I'll check that out.

Have some respect for scripture. The Bible is a not a screed from the GOP, and Romans 14 is not where Paul channels Romney's 47% remarks. Personally, the sentiments about referring to people as treasonous skanks worthy of imprisonment is so distant from the meaning of Romans 14 I doubt you have even read that passage. Consider 14:13

Then let us no more pass judgment on one another, but rather decide never to put a stumbling block or hindrance in the way of a brother.

You certainly are relentless in your desire to demonstrate how ignorant ignorance has to be to be as big a moron as you are. Thanks for the reminder that there are indeed two species of hairless biped on the planet: Homo Sapiens (us) and Homo Sap (you).

How small did you say your wee-wee is?

Fourty nine. I know no one that is "pro abortion". Your nothing but a right wing nut talking point. There's a major differance in "pro abortion" and "pro choice". Too bad you're too damn ignorant to know the differance. But then, you like trolling ladies. What else can we expect from little mids such as yours>

Do you dispute that polls show that most Catholics do not accept the canon law on that? So are most Catholics excommunicated including Saint Anselm of Canterbury who held in the 11th century that "no human intellect accepts the view that an infant has the rational soul from the moment of conception"?

Canon law can be wrong. Galileo also presumed to think the church had erred.

The Church is moving to modify it's thinking in light of modern discoveries. For example, it has accepted the UDDA (universal determination of Death Act) which defines the death of a person as absence of brain activity. There are sound theological arguments for the proposition that there is no vessel of soul without the capacity for consciousness. This was Saint Anselm's perspective, and but he did not have the benefit of modern neuroscience. The body of a brain dead grandmother is not your grandmother. Your relative left when their brain died. Similarly, for a zygote with no brain activity, the person has not yet shown up.

Now, some elderly cardinals in 1818 had no grasp of the neurological capacity of a zygote declared that zygotes were people. They were doing their best to give guidance to the laity, but their judgement was clouded by ignorance of the science.

It seems to me that you are more interested in personal invective than a discussion of matters of spiritual importance.

John Messerly,

That was a lovely post. Thanks.

I enjoyed reading Butler's Lives of the Saints, especially St. Anselm of Canterbury. The saints are one heck of an interesting read! Lots of surprises.

Ah yes, another one demonstrating that religious supremacism is intrinsically and necessarily bigoted.

Entropy, I think you are correct, but really it isn't fair to judge based on this individual's misrepresentation of the Church's position.

Fortynine, you don't seem to understand what you are stating is not even true from the perspective of the Church. You were caught stating nonsense about Romans 14, then made a breathtaking leap to Canon law on abortion. Well- It's a fairly geeky theological topic, but I'm game.

Your assertion is nonsense on the face of it. Canon 1398 exacts this penalty only for commission of the act, not the idea.

If you sincerely believe otherwise, look it up- If you find the opposite, kindly point us to the writing of any ecclesiastical authority of the Church who states otherwise.

India...

If you are so fascinated with the lives of Saints, maybe this one might interest you...

Mr. Messerly,

Whether or not he is misrepresenting the RCC's position, I must insist that the statement "religious supremacism is intrinsically and necessarily bigoted" is true, and that it applies to the poster. Furthermore, having read and heard the RCC's Credo, I conclude that it applies to the RCC as a whole as well.

I was saying it is mistaken to conclude anything about the RCC due to the particular speaker.

I presume if 1389 said people were automatically excommunicated if they pick up a gun and murder someone, that you would not conclude they were necessarily bigoted. That is, we acknowledge that we are opinionated, prejudiced and intolerant about murder of innocents, but though this fits the overt definition of bigotry, this intolerance of murder is a common ground value that is held across nearly all belief systems. So if your conclusion is based on the divergence between RCC canon law and these commonly held values, then we are on the same page. If you are making a generic anarchist argument denying any law, then we aren't.

I wasn't really dealing with the issue of canon law. After reading his poorly worded statement again, it is possible that his phrase "your religious BS" does not mean "your liberal theologically incorrect BS" as I thought it did. There are more "atheist/agnostic" right-wingers than many people may realize, and he may be one of them. If my original reading of the phrase was correct, then I feel quite safe in describing him as a religious supremacist. Religious supremacism is a common problem in religions and seems to be a particularly common problem in the Judeo-Christian-Islamic complex of religions. In my experience not many people in that complex are willing to acknowledge the problem.

There's a lot of angry depressives out there seeking refuge from the uncertainty and doubt of existence. As an alternative to physical suicide, the bulk seem to have chosen intellectual and spiritual suicide.

Contrast the use of language employed. When scientists carefully describes a concept, instead of stating "I know", they will instead state, "I believe evolution is correct because of the overwhelming evidence." Contrast the corresponding statement from many people of faith: "I know the world was created in 6 days". To say something more equivocal, like "my belief is that..." is to their style of thinking, an admission of spiritual weakness and lack of certainty.

So despite the supremacist's conviction that belief is more important than knowledge, in practice they employ the word "know"as a term with more talismanic powerful than the term "believe".

As for biblical knowledge? Regardless how vigorously this group will beat their breasts about how highly they prize the knowledge and wisdom in the Good Book, few know even basic details from it. You want to embarrass a fundamentalist? Ask them to name the disciples of Jesus. Most will name only 3 or 4, and it is common for them to name Luke or Mark- assuming in their vague jumble of ideas they have picked up here and there that since Mark and Luke are two of the four gospels giving accounts of Jesus's life, that the authors must have been disciples. Well, they never met the guy. The Luke credited with writing the Gospel of Luke was the companion of Paul- not that it matters because nearly all biblical scholars don't believe he actually wrote it. Some unknown other person did. Unfortunately, fundamentalists like Huckabee, his followers and those following other fundamentalist crack pots not only don't have much use for scientific rigor, they don't have much use for intellectual rigor in bibilical study if the conclusions do not confirm their "preconceived views. It's not just careful studies of authorship they have an aversion to, they are averse to considering simple factual inconsistencies. For example, this holiday season you will hear an account from "Luke" that Joseph and Mary were in Bethlehem due to the roman census, and that Jesus was born during the reign of Herod the Great. Well, the author of Luke messed up because the census was taken 10 years after the death of Herod.

It is embarrassing to listen to fundamentalist bloggers attempt to bluff and bluster their way out of such biblical contradictions.

The goal of the supremacist is certainty, not truth because seeking truth leads to uncertainty and doubt- the uncomfortable state of mind they seek to refuge from. As a Christian, I feel little kinship with their sentiments. They have a profound fear of any form of truth, scientific or biblical- I see them come to church every Sunday to hide from God- to clothe themselves in piety in order to hide from themselves and others. They psychotically avoid truth- Whether they are inside or outside the house of God, the last thing they want to do is embrace God, because to embrace him is to embrace the horror of human finiteness and uncertainty.

angel, #6,

Looks like that little Huckabee apple didn't fall too far from the tree.

There's something especially odorous about people who torture small animals. They deserve a special place in hell.

That little character defect almost always traces back to something in their upbringing. Speaking of character defects--hypocrisy would be one, I believe--I love how Huckabee used the power of his position to smother an investigation and the filing of charges against his son, David.

Hey, Huckabuck. Isn't there something about people who live in glass houses . . . ?

mp guy,#6.2

I sure agree, as an animal lover and the owner of a cat I love dearly even after 8 years of its waking us up at 7:00AM, I think the ninth circle of Hell would be just fine for people who abuse innocent, vulnerable animals.

Schmuckabee is probably the product of ten generations of child abuse himself, which just gets passed on since he thinks "that's the way it is."

India...

I think the ninth circle of Hell would be just fine for people who abuse innocent, vulnerable animals.

Sorry, dear, that particular circle of Hell is reserved for those who are traitors: To country, to benefactors, to friends, to family...

The sin of enjoying inflicting violence for the sake of inflicting violence would condemn him to the first region of the seventh circle, condemned to wallow in a lake of boiling blood for eternity... The depth to be determined by the extent of violence enjoyed...

A gentleman by the name of Adam Lanza would probably be waiting...

David, #6.5

Oh, I see! A lake of boiling blood, is it! Sounds OK to me for these animal abusers. I no longer have a copy of THE INFERNO, but truly, I find Paradiso a more comforting read! Call me a coward! LOL

Thank you for the article on St Issa, I am going to take some time and read it. We've been running all day doing last minute Christmas shopping. I have so much to do....so little time. Oh my gosh!

That was so thoughtful of you. Thank you, and Merry Christmas to you if I don't catch you again before the 25th. Keep the poems coming.

huckabee's soapbox is a child's coffin.

i just hope he emptied it first.

Huckabee is kind of bloodthirsty!

hdavis,#11

What a great point. I'm ashamed I didn't think of it!

Would anyone want to be near the future war criminals you're mistreating?

Oh goody, another genocidal right-winger.

Houston, we have a problem.

Those on the right are typically quite proud of their malice and other character defects.

49.4 -- Is that your IQ? Sorry, just kidding.

I noticed that the preachers that you won't let near your kids are all black. Strange....could this point to a larger pattern in your brain?

Clicking 49.4 and then "Ignore author" felt sooooo good.

Actually, fortynine 4, Houston we have a problem is a code. Those to whom it was given will know it. You will not.

I'll leave rewriting history up to you. You are so good at it.

TC in LA, He'll be gone, anyway. There's no place for racism here.

God bless you, Sally. Thanks.

yeah, life's a lot easier if you can blame all the bad stuff on some made-up deity. it kinda takes a lot of responsibility for improving the state of affairs off your shoulders.

and they say atheists are unrealistic.

SisterWoman: I agree. We need to change our culture that worships violence. So Skyfall was the biggest box office movie of the year. I have not seen it; I watched the ads on TV and said, I do not want to see that. Our entertainment choices are often limited to action for the sack of action: a lot of jumping around and explosions. We do not need to sacrifice suspense, action, and crisis to have drama. As a matter of fact real drama is not just about violence. True drama is about the human heart in conflict with itself, as Wm. Faulkner said in his address on accepting the nobel prize.

You may be interested in looking at the post I wrote on Melissas Harris Perry's blog this morning and the one I wrote on this blog yesterday on the first thread on this tragedy. Our problem is complex and it has roots that go way back to the time before there was anything that we would recognize as a state and any civil law.

Yours is a sensible post, but I often wonder what is the real fascination with shooting guns, the psychological value? Is it the sense of power? With assault rifles, the questions become even more poignant.

Shenonymous, there is a fascination, for many, with pure machinery. the finer the machine the greater the attraction. guns are one of humankind's finest machines. if you have that basic fascination with machines, hold a gun in your hand. you will immediately notice that it is simple, compact, efficient, well made, powerful, purposeful and controllable - all the qualities of a well made machine. now, aim and fire that gun. you will have confirmed that it fulfills all that it promised when merely held and regarded.

when the fascination with such a fine piece of machinery is restricted to the machine-ness of such a thing and it's utility as a hunting tool there is no problem.

if you allow yourself to concentrate primarily on the sensation of power generated in the user by firing the gun, and it's associated destruction, it becomes a danger to yourself and others. it is the feeling that you, and you alone, are the possessor of such power that you never had before that is problematic and oh so human. in the case of a fully automatic weapon this feeling can apparently become overwhelming.

this, as with so many other adolescent behaviors, will only be cured by the continued maturation of humans and human society. i just hope we are near that point in time.

stephen, #16,

And may I say again that Catholic schools still do have prayer. (But of course, according to Huckabee, we worship idols and are heathens).

Chances are good that with the name Lanza, Adam attended Catholic school in Newtown, so his argument about school prayer is fallacious to begin with.

Evil is no respecter of towns, countries or the people who inhabit them. I believe in the existence of evil, just as the Lord did.

The parents were divorced, so it's more likely they were not Catholic.

India your prejudices is showing the boy had asburgers syndrome and was home schooled. so much for the attack on catholic schools.

The Sword of God is truth. So many of these faux christians do not realize that the early Chritians redefined the word "virtue" which originally meant manliness, strength. It was a characteristic of the classical hero who was a warrior. The Christian's concept of the hero is Christ who is the champion of love, mercy, peace. "Put on the whole armor of God, the helmet of salvation, the breast plate of rightousness, the shoes of the gossiple, and take up the sword of God which is truth (or the sword of the spirit which is the Word). The Greek word which is usually translated into English as "word" was "Logos" which means law and much more than the English word "word."

Because on those sunny days, the view of God is that he is all powerful, all knowing, and all loving.

Then when there is a soul crushing tragedy such as this, those who wish to advance an agenda explain it by saying he's really petty, petulant, and narcissistic just to be able to fit their political needs.

I imagine God's just thrilled when they do that, too.

What is a weekend, #19.1

I agree. A soul crushing tragedy is the perfect description for this.

This morning our priest gave a lovely and moving talk about the tragedy. We, who are thoughtful Christians, (or any religion) must not anthropomorphize God in this peculiar way. Huckabee and others do this a lot and I find it stultifyingly stupid.

I think you are right. If those who are large in the media who also have a critical mind (like Maddow has and expresses articulately and eloquently), they would challenge Huckabee and other biblethumpers. Truth and accuracy in religion is the only thing that is going to save it. Then people will have real choices. As it is, religion is like a toxic waste dump.

I hate to imagine what you would assume of me if you saw a picture of me when I was 14.

LOLOL - me too!

uhhhh... I can only safely say I was a late bloomer.

LOL, I don't believe you looked that wild-eyed and crazy.

I confess to having a photo taken of me at a county fair, at age 13, where I am wearing a motorcycle helmet. That was not great, either.

I concur; you have a good point.

Due to a little mishap at birth, my right cheekbone is malformed. As the high school bullies were quick to point out; it makes me look retarded. Fortunately, my parents encouraged all of my nerdy hobbies. It would have been horrid had I developed a passion for cheer leading. In spite of my socially challenging appearance, I grew up to have a career in software development and last year married a gorgeous man 15 years my junior.

The Geek Will Inherit the Earth

ninz, "The Geek will inherit the earth".

Well, we could sure do worse! I happen to like geeks a great deal and gave birth to one whose idea of fun is building computers and taking them apart again. 85% of the time, I have no idea what he is talking about.

As for me, I can barely find my own avatar page.

But will the earth be worth inheriting after the usual suspects get done with it?

LOL, Entropy Rules. I don't think it will!

Ninz, #21.5,

I don't believe for one minute that you ever looked retarded. We are often our own worst critics. Beauty is more complex than can be destroyed by one cheekbone. Bullies lie.

It's a special kind of monster, followed by thousands of minions willing to believe.

It's a monster that wants to take over and rule, all the while invoking a God they know nothing about.

Never trust anyone who says they speak for God.

And certainly..never elect a person who says God has spoken to them.

However, the bastards get in and make law, anyway.

A Republican.