First up from the God Machine this week is a look at the increasingly aggressive efforts on the part of the religious right movement to blame secularism and church-state separation for last week's massacre at Sandy Hook Elementary in Newtown, Conn.
While the NRA's Wayne LaPierre blamed the media and the entertainment industry for gun violence, Franklin Graham went a step further, initially blaming television, music, and video games, before turning his attention to government neutrality towards religion.
For those who can't watch clips online, Graham complained, "Why are we shocked? We shouldn't be shocked. This is what happens when a society turns its back on God."
Throughout the week, this was the standard line from prominent religious right leaders and organizations, which pushed the argument that violence would be diminished if government officials endorsed, sponsored, and encouraged religiosity. Focus on the Family founder James Dobson attributed the shootings to the notion that God has "allowed judgment to fall upon us" because Americans accept reproductive rights and marriage equality.
"[M]illions of people have decided that God doesn't exist, or he's irrelevant to me and we have killed 54 million babies and the institution of marriage is right on the verge of a complete redefinition," Dobson said. "Believe me, that is going to have consequences."
As nutty and tone deaf as LaPierre's speech seemed yesterday, there's an entire religio-political movement that has spent a week making similar remarks from a theocratic perspective.
Also from the God Machine this week:
* In western Pennsylvania this month, an elementary school music teacher shot his ex-wife while she played the organ during church services. He then left, returned to the First United Presbyterian Church of Coudersport, and shot her again to make sure she was dead (thanks to reader R.P. for the tip).
* Paul Ecke Central Elementary School in Encintas, California, has introduced yoga classes for kids, which has sparked protests among local conservative activists who believe yoga crosses the church-state line.
* Paolo Gabriele gets an early Christmas present: "Pope Benedict made a surprise pre-Christmas visit to the jail holding his former butler on Saturday and pardoned him for stealing and leaking documents that alleged corruption in the Holy See."
* Blake Page, a 24-year-old cadet, quit West Point less than six months before graduation, citing religious discrimination -- Page isn't religious, and felt uncomfortable in a military culture that promotes religiosity and, according to Page, disrespects nonreligious cadets.
* In Alaska, a Republican state legislative aide became "obsessed" with her role in an anti-Islam group and "illegally used state resources" to promote Stop Islamization of America's interests. The aide, Karen Sawyer, resigned and has been permanently banned from rehire by Alaska's legislature.
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No, this IS NOT what happens when a society turns its back on God. It is what happens when a society "uses" GODs of their own creation to further its own unGODlike aims.
Does this NUT actually think a God worth worshipping would kill 20 innocent children to "teach a lesson"???
I would so like to believe there is a GOD and that those 20 children are with him in total peace and love, but if that GOD exists, he must be crying his heart out at all those people "claiming" to speak for him!!
Mr Graham knew absolutely nothing about the religious lives of the 20 dead children.
For him to speculate that God singled out those innocents for destruction because society as a whole turned it's back on God shows what little understanding he has of his God.
Franklin Graham has been taken over by the "Faith Based Initiative" money and the money from the people like the Kochs. It is sad when the leaders of the faithful utter lies instead of truths. Franklin Graham is not a follower of Jesus who preached love and acceptance; he is a follower of the monied class in America who do not want a United States of America.
Franklin Graham's theology is an abomination.
The Faith Based God: a new holy trinity, God of fear and power and on his right sits the god of money and on his left the god of the gun!
These Hot-Air-Christo-Buffoons always screech about how God is punishing [fill in the blank] with death and terror for something. Yet, when death or terror visits their own group, that person is being 'called back' to God, and is some kind of martyr.
I find it disgusting that as people like Graham try to build the framework for the debate in their malignant Christo-World, the death of 20 six year olds doesn't fall into the second group.
So what, exactly, was the takeaway during the inquision or the Salem witch hunts? That piety run amuck leads to insanity? Seems like history is repeating itself. What a shock.
History keeps repeating itself because too many people are incapable of learning from it.
Oncearepublican,#1,
I believe there is a God and I am certain those children are with Him.
The extreme religious right has a concept of God which I will never comprehend, as I am unable to even comprehend how they feel about anything! For much of my young life, I was an agnostic, and I happened to read a book by C.S. Lewis, Oxford don and theologian, called Mere Christianity. I always want to call it The Case For Christianity as Lewis has a simplistic way of explaining complex Truths. That led to his other books such as The Problem of Pain, and Miracles. Eventually, I left the Anglican faith and became a Catholic. My epiphany changed my life. I would not push my faith on anyone, but I can say that if you seek God long enough, you will find Him, and realize He was always there for you.
He is surely with those children. God is love. He loved those children and still does.
In no way does that divine love protect us from man's free will. That's the hard part for me. Lewis addresses that in The Problem of Pain. It is a comforting book. Don't be distracted by the non-believers, some of whom hate God and love to put down believers.
It was in no way God's will that those children were killed. It was Adam Lanza's perverted, sick will which sent them to God. God is everywhere, all the time. We cannot remove God from our schools or anywhere else! God is Omniscient and Omnipotent. Prayer or no prayer, God is everywhere.
Why would a god let little children die for any reason? I find it better to believe that there are either are no gods, or there were and there aren't anymore.
I used to think that, as well. I even used to read Nietzsche.
Free will is so hard and complicated a subject. This isn't a good format for it. Talk to someone, like a priest, Rabbi, or minister.
1.9 I think if there is a God it is not what we suppose. If God is everywhere and everything then it is God who manifests itself in every act and every physical thing good and bad. There is more to the God story but who knows what that is. It is offensive that people go around saying they know God's plan or have the inside scoop to what God's intentions are because it just isn't so. They who say they know are making a mockery of everything. Those who say they know the mind of God disgrace the deaths of these children and of humanity at large.
newsblog, #1..11
Yes. That is true. And offensive.
I used to think there was a god and God was love, even read the bible. I don't think free will is complicated. If we believe it is within our power to change, a higher power is unnecessary. And things will change because the truth is we are the only ones that can change it.
No one and nothing is going to fix this country or this world but us. Once a good majority believes that, we can start getting stuff done.
I don't see why I'd need to go to a priest when so many people say they know their god's will right here.
oncearepublican
"Does this NUT actually think a God worth worshiping would kill 20 innocent children to "teach a lesson"???
Sounds like g*d has a rather petty agenda, based very much on judgement, retribution and baseless delusions of superiority.
Yep, the crappy r's and theo-nuts have created a g*d in their very own image. They will never be disappointed in his fine works, as they so much mirror their own in thought, word and deed.
Perhaps the reason that we as a people continue to repeat history so ignorantly and blindly, is because the book and the teachings of said book that some people follow is the very same book ! Therefore it stagnates the progression of advancement and continues an endless cycled-loop !
India has written beautifully about faith, love and oneness. The problem is that there is a coordinated movement in our country that does not want that for America. Adam Lanza is just as much a victim as are the 26 who died at Shady Hook. He is the victim of people who would tear apart the fabric of our society to get more power and money for themselves. Ministers and priests who advocate what Franklin Graham and others like him are telling America are promoting the causes of these money and power hungry purveyors of hate.
Those in religion who justify gun violence against children as a sign that God is punishing America are committing blasphemy. Jesus says that it is the evil of men with power who would rather make money than help people whom God condemns. In the Bible, the only time that Jesus took any kind of aggressive action was when he overturned the tables of the money changers who were taking advantage of the people coming to the Temple to worship. Jesus criticized the Pharisees because they did not serve the poor. He called them whited sepulchres, beautiful on the outside and rotten on the inside.
The defining feature of God that Jesus taught us is love. "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life." No hate here, no punishment raining down on innocent people, just love.
The purveyors of hate for self gain operate on many fronts: anti-gun control, anti-immigrants, anti-minorities, anti-labor unions, anti-gay rights, anti-abortion, etc. Each of these fronts are useful in putting together a coalition to win. It's called the wedge and win strategy. These purveyors of hate have the money and means to "sell" their message to America. They pose a threat to our democracy and to each of us as Americans.
The text above should be:
John 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
Thank you for those beautiful comments and your response. I totally agree with you about the right wing extremists.
I like what John says:
In Him was life;and the life was the light of men.
And the light shineth in the darkness;
And the darkness did not overcome it.
In today's world, as I imagine throughout all human history, it seems contrary to the facts. But I believe the darkness is overcome by the light.
When you look at the response to Sandy Hook, and how the people there reacted, and how the vast majority of people throughout the country reacted, you can see that the darkness has been overcome.
Sorry, but I've read the bible, actually more than one. And it completely depends on interpretation and how you read it. Conservative Christians have as much faith in their interpretation as Progressive Christians have faith in their interpretation. There are passage supporting or refuting both.
The "My faith/interpretation is correct/better than yours" is the wrong debate. It doesn't offer any solutions, no matter how aesthetic.
Those who don't believe in Jesus are going to perish, while those who do are going to live forever? That is the same sentiment worded prettier.
No offense to anyone, but I think the Bible, Torah, and Koran have done more harm to humanity than they have ever done good. I also think religion has squashed spirituality all too often. We need a new paradigm.
for those who do not believe in him shall burn in hell for an eternity,,, for no other reason...
pure arbitrary evil
newsblog,
i agree.
when i was a little girl my mother made us go to bible camps and special religious services that preached the "end of the world". as a result, we were scared to death, afraid that every day here on earth was our last. after i became an adult, i lived my life for years afraid that the rapture was going to occur, and cut my life here on earth short. it is difficult for a child to discern between the "gloriousness" of the rapture, and the horrible things that will happen in the years leading up to that, especially the 7 years after the rapture has occured.
when children are being taught things that all the adults around them believe, no matter how proposterous, most often they carry these beliefs into adulthood. these beliefs are so ingrained, and have become a part of who we are, because we have been "domesticated" by our parents and other humans who believe the same things. this happens to everyone, and as children we tend to agree with what adults say. a child born to "religious" parents, parents who take them to church and sunday school every week, month after month, year after year, with religious camps and special services (Billy Graham, The Lundstroms, and etc.) thrown in on a regular basis, have no choice, UP TO A CERTAIN POINT, to agree with all the information. even though i was not aware that i was "agreeing", i just took it as fact, i believed unconditionally.
it wasn't unil i went to college in my 30's that i began to challenge my "domestication". i didn't choose the beliefs that were given me throughout my childhood, but my belief was so strong that i felt guilt, shame and fear of hell for even questioning my belief system. i was raised on "the end of the world", on the "rapture", on the book of Revelation. it was difficult, but a HUGE RELIEF TO GIVE THAT UP.
i believe that "religion" (christianity) is used as "big brother is watching you". it is used to keep us "in line". indeed, the religious right is using their god, their religion, to scare voters who have similar beliefs (fear of hell, fear of a vengeful god) into voting for republican/conservatives. it is very easy to "catch" someone who is already caged, who is already hooked on the same beliefs you are. and why should we question it? most of us have been raised on these beliefs, MORE OR LESS.
i had to learn that i have a right to challenge my beliefs, and am grateful that i was put in a position to do just that. i had to learn that i COULD CHANGE at least some of my "domestication", so that i didn't have to live in fear, and with guilt. i try not to judge, but it is very hard not to be judgemental when we hear ignorant comments like those that have been made lately, comments intended to try to control us, to keep us in line, to keep us from being gay, to keep RELIGION in every aspect of our lives, and etc. etc. etc.
Seeing that the NRA wants to have a database of the mentally ill, they could start with Graham and people like Glenn Beck. Anyone who "hears" God talking to them is just hearing voices and should be seeking mental health not on tv or radio telling the rest of the mentally ill what their "voices" are telling them they should do. Especially with some of the agendas they are trying to promote.
Grrlromeo, I am not sure what you are referring to, but I believe Christ died for all men.
Suzette: I know what you mean. It takes a lot of deprograming to undo the damage. It's too bad because the love and togetherness that should come from religion has been lost in all the nonsense dogma and left us guilty and afraid. A very liberating book is Christopher Hitchens, God Is Not Great! That book set me free to not feel guilty and think for myself!
newsblog, I adored Christopher Hitchens, but I did not agree with him. What a wonderful writer he was. What an interesting person.
When he ripped you up, you knew it. He was amazing. The best sarcasm I ever heard came from him.
I don't think it's a matter of agreeeing or not. It is a matter of being jolted out of a mental rut and feeling ok to explore. It's a matter of mind expansion and Hitchens allows you to do that with out guilt! I feel free from the shackles of religion for the first time and it is awesome!
This is anecdotal, but just volunteering myself as a case study. I watch a lot of violent movies and TV shows. I play even more violent video games. I've read my share of comic books. I listen to hard rock music, including some heavy metal. I am an atheist. I do not own a gun.
My virtual body count on the xBox likely numbers in the millions (at least if you count aliens, robots and zombies). My real world body count is zero (unless you count insects).
That all seems to add up logically to me, but it must present some form of paradox to the thinking of right-wing, NRA endorsing, religious fundamentalists.
That is exactly what the religious right is saying. No Jesus, no eternal life. The Bible is clear on this.
Not all of those kids were Christian, and they don't need to be post-posthumously baptized or appropriated. It was very nice that the memorial service included a variety of faiths as well as secular speeches. If people could be that mindful all the time, that would be nice, thanks.
Now. None of this solves the issue of gun violence. We, living breathing human beings on this earth have to solve it.
Maybe next time...
Why is this happening in America today? James Dobson, Franklin Graham, Mike Huckabee, and Pat Robertson are in a hotel conference room jabbering away among themselves about who has the most say about their religious “Right...”
Dobson; “I’m Right. It’s their television”...Graham; “No I’m Righter. It’s their music”...Huckabee; “You’re both wrong, I’m Rightest. It’s their video games” ...Robertson; “I’ve been Far Right” longer than any of you so I have the inside scoop.” It’s government of the people. What do people know?” ...
About then an addled, befuddled and confused nitwit with a jam-packed Uzi wanders past the conference room door.
The addled, beffuddled and confused nitwit stops, considers for a moment, then goes on his way, muttering that he has more sense than any of them... Addled, befuddled and confused he may be, but he knows they’re a waste of time.
Meandering on down the hallway, all he can hear is “It’s marriage rights! NO! it’s reproductive equality!!!” Farther on down the hallway he could still make out some mumbling... “This is what happens when a society turns its back on Conservatism.... where’s Wayne, he’s supposed to be here by now!”
Franklin Graham thinks Obama's a knave,
And Graham thinks the country he'll save,
Graham wants Obama out,
But I think there's no doubt,
His father's spinning in his grave...
Ok I came late to the party but if you stop and think about this there are some really genuinely disturbing ideas buried in here that I don't think Mr Graham has considered...or maybe he has and that is amazingly scary.
If what he says is true then it follows that:
1) God uses what appears to the rest of us as selective homicidal mania and various forms of insanity to enforce his "Moral" will.
2) that Adam Lanza was sent by God as the tool of imposing that "Moral" Will and that in my understanding would make him a "Profit"
3) He died in the commission of his therefore presumably "Holy" duties, Thus making him a martyr.
Now either Mr. Graham is saying that a man that killed children is right up there with all the other people from the Bible who carried out God's will or he is just saying stuff that he likes the sound of because it makes people think he has answers and confirms their already twisted view of this world.
David Johnston, Billy Graham isn't dead yet. He reportedly has Alzheimer's; Franklin drags him out occasionally, like when he met with Romney.
Indeed. We surely can stop the killing. We won't because it's not in our nature to do so but we do have the power.
Our fervently religious loved ones need to ask themselves pertinent questions, like, WWJD with more armed guards in schools? Gov. Scott's stand your ground law? Or, simply WWJD with the gun soup his "followers" want us all to drink heartedly! -Kevo
WWJD? "Turn the other cheek" comes to mind.
regarding my post about the christian prayer that "ONLY thru jesus shall you be saved"'' the word arbitrary makes more sense after the words sanctimonious, specious, and hypocritical. The christians aren't happy with just praying for 5 billion souls to burn in hell for not being christian,, how many times have you heard a protestant tell you "god is love" in on breath and "all the catholics are going to burn in hell" in the next? Yeah,, I should get more catholic friends so I can hear "upon this rock" and "all the protestants are going to burn in hell". From what I've read in the bibble those first in line to go to heaven will be the young men who've cut off their testicles..
And now we're bemoaning how society is turning away from religion???
Which Jesus? The "turn the other cheek" Jesus or the "I did not come to bring peace, but a sword" Jesus?
There's a reason the bible is often called "the great big book of multiple choice".
I love the "God did this" excuse. It never holds up. Here's why:
You believe that God is Loving, Kind, Benevolent, Merciful: Killing 20 innocents is not the act of such a God by definition.
You believe that God is Wrathful, Vengeful and one to be Feared: By definition an "innocent" does not instill a need for Wrath or Vengence.
God puts forth trials and tribulations to overcome: Death isn't a trial, it's the game over prize.
God has been removed from our (City/State/School/etc.): Omniscient and Omnipotent and we as mere mortals can do anything against that? I think not. Where does a Grizzly Bear sit to eat? Any damn place it wants. If God wants to be in the classroom, He will be.
Eliminate the impossible and whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth. If God didn't do it, then maybe it was the sick, bat guano crazy a$$-wholes that had free will and not a lick of decency that did it. We can't stop someone capable of causing a pillar of fire to erupt and block the way of an entire army from following after a group of refugees crossing a sea that that person split in twain (thank you Cecil B DeMille), but we can stop the next looneytoon from getting his or her hands on instruments of death. I like guns, I'm a crack shot, I'm confident if these imaginary home invaders with their RPC-90's come into my home I can kill them with my GLOCK-9, or if I had to, a butter knife to the eye socket. That being said, I'm not really worried about these fictitious home invaders my fellow conservatives claim are out there. I do worry about amoral, mentally disturbed whackadoos that all of a sudden one day may decide to become the next national disturbing headline. I will gladly surrender some or even all of my gun rights if it prevents even one "innocent child" from dying. I can live a long, fruitful life never having an opportunity to pull a trigger again. Until the gun rights of all citizens are revoked for the common good, I will retain my handguns and shotguns and rifles I use for hunting, recreation and potentially a robber that breaks in to my home. If the 2nd Amendment is repealed, I'll turn them all over to the authorities without shedding a tear. I still remember the purpose of the republican party, to put the "Republic" first. Ban the damn assault guns, they let idiots kill more efficiently than they should be able to do so.
So, when we turn our back on god, he sends crazy people to kill our kids?
Don't forget...this is a god who not only has his agents commit genocide, but who himself commits genocide.
EntropyRules makes a good point. Let's keep in mind that these fanatic right-wing Christians believe heavily in the God of the old testament, far more than they do the hippy of the new testament.
But they just love Revelation.
Largenose,#3 That is nonsense. It does not matter who says it, it is still nonsense.
Revelations...
I love describing Revelations as an attempt to explain what happens when you die to an illiterate following by a drug-addled old man. Think about it, Revalations is full of numbers and references to numbers but most of the population of that day could only count to 10, twenty if they took off their sandals.
John, or Dr. John to be precise, pretty much HAD to be on drugs. I mean, look at his Gospel. The other three try to tell a quasi-factual story about Jesus. John starts out with "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the the Word was God..." OK I'm an illiterate shepherd and I'm supposed to keep up with that?
And all through Revalations he talks about "I had a dream" or maybe "I had a hallucination...". I'm not saying anything, I'm just saying.
"Dr. John"? Now that creates a reference you probably didn't intend. :-) Anyway, Dr. John the Night Tripper may well have taken a few drugs.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kWvdO3l4_P8
Revelations was written at the time of persecution by the Roman Emperors. John wrote it in code, so the Romans would not capture or kill the messenger on the way to deliver it to the Christian churches. The people knew the references at the time and so they knew what the code meant. The famous 666 as the Anti-Christ was the Emperor Nero. Nero's name had six letters in each of three words. So modern "prophecy" is flawed because the codes are interpreted to mean something much different than what they meant when John of Patmos wrote Revelations.
Jimes, Thank you, that is such a misunderstood book of the Bible. I was taught just what you wrote here. Fundamentalists have a very different take on this.
I always go with what sounds most logical to me. That was it. It is historically accurate.
Revelation reads like an account of a really bad "magic mushroom trip! Not everybody likes Revelation:
http://www.jesusneverexisted.com/revelation.htm
To be blunt, I don't think it says much for Christianity that this book remains in the various versions of the Bible.
I can't imagine what kind of horrible god they are worshiping but it's not the same thing I think of as God. Their god seems more like Nero or Hitler than a divine energy! Is it any wonder people are atheists with this mean spirited, petulant, angry god that is being portrayed! Their god makes Satan look good- not that I believe in that either.
Well you know they say the gods of the old religion become the demons of the new religion that follows. So a century or two, assuming we haven't destroyed Earth's ability to support life or that the supposed mayan apocalypse was just really, really late(chuckle)...you might see the same happen with evangelicalism.
The same things were said right before The Crusades...
I was looking through here before posting to see if anyone else would pick up on this.
Not only the Crusades, but the Inquisition ("Give me six sentences from the most innocent of men and I will find something within them to hang him." - Cardinal Richelieu). More people have died IN THE NAME OF GOD throughout history than we can count. So Graham, get off your high horse!
They would have us bring back Torquemada!
I have to disagree: it was man who caused the Inquisition and the Crusades. I believe Cardinal Richelieu or any corrupt Pope or priest you can pick at random throughout history, were also men. Men of free will. Just like the rest of us; some very misguided, hate filled, angry people who perpetrated crimes against other people.
Not God.
But India, what these men were doing, they said they were doing in the name of God. You see? It's invoking the name of God to justify bad things. Whether it's killing "heathens" (I think they called them Moslems then) or putting unbelievers on the rack, saying it's "God's will" has been an excuse for thousands of years.
Before anyone gets his shorts in a knot, I'm not trying to be an authority on the historic details. Just saying that you can separate what is done *by God* from what is done *by mortal man, but claiming God's guidance*. Sometimes it's just a convenient alibi.
JL in Montana: 5.4
People have always said a lot of things which simply aren't true! "God's will" is a poor excuse for man's violence, don't you think? We have a capacity for making ourselves believe anything!
I am going to try to simplify something here which is better done by much smarter heads than mine: Good (divine good) stands as an absolute. Evil cannot do that, as evil is ALWAYS (pick your evil) a perversion of Good. Evil cannot exist but for the existence of Good. Think about it.
Take the 7 deadly sins: All are perversions of God given good things.
I think God manifests part of itself thru. all physical things including us. There is no us versus them, good versus evil. We are all part of one thing- call it God if you must. It's time to start thinking of God not as a separate entity but as an expression of itself in existence.
"Free will" may be our ability to make that expression compassionate, loving, and inclusive!
or not, which has happened all too often!
India 5.6 Are you saying without God there would be no evil? Then why doesn't God just stop evil from being? I thought God was all powerful but he can't stop evil?
It makes no sense to argue about what a deity would or would not think or do until the existence of said deity has been established. As yet, there is no empirical evidence whatsoever that a deity exists. All arguments about a deity's motives are therefore moot.
Duluthian, #5.10
Yes, I am saying that without God there could be no evil. "All powerful" can only include the possible, not the intrinsically impossible. God set up nature a certain way, with laws that are there for a reason. I cannot see through a wall, as that is intrinsically impossible. It defies a law of nature. God created nature this way.
Free will is free will. God set it up this way for a reason. It is the only landscape where morality can exist. He would not stop what He created as good; as the only possible good! Put free will into the equation and evil becomes possible.
When, where, and how would you have Him always interfering? If He did so, would free will still be a reality? I can't see how.
This is the only reality He created for us. I have to assume He knew best. I wouldn't have thought of it, myself.
Oh dear India- please don't call God a he. It's just too awful to contemplate God with testosterone!
I think artfulskeptic is right. No one should make pronouncements about God's motives when we can not even agree on a definition of what God is.
I'd have had us all happy, healthy, and sitting around eating lobster tail and dark chocolate truffles and never gaining weight or having to get up with a sick baby at 2:00AM. We'd all be listening to Beethoven.
There would be no bombs or guns. In short, I'd have had it MY WAY. I'll bet your way would be different. Your way would interfere with my way, wouldn't it. There goes free will out the window! LOL
His way allows for everyone's way. Even the people who like guns can have their way. But, think of it this way: All of us believe killing is wrong. No society believes or glorifies cowards, cheats or killers. Why is that?
It is just traditional to say He. God is wholly other. Gender really is irrelevant when speaking of God. She is fine if you prefer female hormones! Pick the gender you prefer. LOL
newsblog, What do you have against testosterone? Without it men wouldn't exist! I like men. I married one.
Men take out the garbage. They clean the litter. They reach high things which I cannot. LOL
OK, I have a good one. I realize there are bad ones. Surprise, I've met a few myself!
India, I like men for the same reason- kidding. Ok, so I think we need a new paradigm altogether. No more ill defined God, no He or She, no more Jesus, Mohammad or Jehovah. It's the 21st century and time for mankind to grow up. We are capable of so much more and I think a lot of us are on the cusp of discovering a new and more positive way to view our existence. There are many tho. who still need to evolve. A more holistic approach would help. This is the gospel according to Newsblog! :)
newsblog, My philosophy is this: Whatever works. I've looked at it from both sides. I came to believe. It helped me. If it didn't help you, I am glad you discovered something which did. I am not a missionary.
I am sure Hitchens would be glad to hear he freed you from religion. See, he WAS a missionary! Rest in peace, Christopher.
India...
In purely physical terms, darkness does not exist... It is like the number 'zero', an indicator of the absence of something, not something that has reality...
Darkness is the absence of light, nothing more... Light is real, be it photons of radiation or waves... It can be measured, evaluated, felt... Darkness is, simply, nothing...
Just like evil, David! It can't exist without good. Light exists, but darkness is merely a continuum of the light spectrum. Darkness has no existence of its own!
I like that. If I don't see you again, Merry Christmas.
Not quite my point, dear...
Darkness is the absence of light, but evil is not the absence of good... Apathy is the absence of good... A hermit, who never has contact with others, is not evil... He may not be helping others, but he is also not hurting others... Would you call him 'evil'?
If you were to measure 'goodness' on a linear scale, 'good' would be positive... 'Evil' would be NEGATIVE... Apathy would be the point of neutrality, neither good nor evil...
Evil is the desire to do harm to others... It is the point of view that life is a 'zero-sum game', that the only way to gain in your position is by forcing others to lose... It is selfishness, greed, irrational hatred... It is gaining pleasure from causing pain...
To bear free will implies the right to choose,
Yet one must bear the burdens of each choice.
Some say, “For one to gain, another must lose,”
But helping each other helps ease sacrifice.
The right of arms implies the right to kill,
Yet, who are you, to judge who’ll die or live?
The right to life, so strong, yet so fragile,
Requires you to honor it and forgive.
For every right that you feel you deserve
Implies the need to give that right to others,
For you must see the truth that sages observe –
Our souls eternal bind us all as brothers.
Every right must bear responsibility
For consequences we may not foresee.
BTW...
I truly hope you enjoy your Christmas... I do enjoy observing others during the Holiday Season, though I tend not to observe it myself...
I do believe Jesus was the Son of God... However, I also believe, He was not unique in that respect, only in His awareness of it... I believe We are ALL Children of God, that the essence of every One of Us, evil or good, originated in the Source of energy that is God... I believe that, at the end of time in the penultimate Universe, which We all so blithely refer to as Heaven, All the Spirit Masters, all the Souls of every sentient Creature to swim, crawl, walk or fly on all the worlds of all the Universes, join together in the last Big Crunch, into one great Gestalt, One Entity, with all the memories, all the feelings, all the experiences, of Every One... One Entity with all the Energy of the Final Universe at his command, Omniscient, Omnipotent, Eternal and All-Knowing, precisely because He once was All of Us...
I believe God created All of Us, so, in the Final Reckoning, All of Us can create God...
Needless to say, in my view - Christmas? Not all that big a deal... But, I do hope you enjoy yours...
I may have lost this in the comments but I just wanted to add...
You say that men are responsible for all of these acts, the crusades, the inquisition, the salem witch trials, etc., But, was the bible not written by a man? Regardless of dictation or however you see it, for the bible to exist in its physical form a man had to write it. Does that not mean that we should hold the bible and everything that it says to the standards we hold men, thus everything in the bible IS up for interpretation. In which case, those who question the bible's credibility shouldn't be prosecuted in any manner.
That's just what I got out of that section.
Indeed I also share this belief. I would say it is unfortunate more people can't see it our way there is much to learn there. We must also learn that if god is the totality of existence, the all, that thi would be logically impossible for us to understand. That is to say it is not possible, that we know of, for a single cell to be aware of the other tissues that perform different tasks. The cell can not understand the entire organism because it is only a peice of it meaning it's ability to perceive is limited. This makes it hard for people to think of and I would argue to an extent it would be impossible to trully know god.
At the same time the idea of "knowing" god confines it to box in itself thus defeating the point. The entire concept of wanting to know god is an expression of why this is not possible to begin with.
But enough with that I'm not going to go anymore Walden's Pond here
Now I think it is important to know that religion does not cause violence. It may spark it but that is only because it exists it says more about fundamental human nature than religions themselves. Of course every theocratic regime of history has been held up by a great amount of oppression, there's a reason Iran is the world only theocratic state. Folks like Graham will never admit that. But having said this we can not blame faith for this implies that no religion=no violence or less violence. Frankly I don't see how that's even possible if it was not religion we'd make up some other reason to fight each other so in the grand scheme of things that changes nothing.
We have the power to not do everything we hear of, are taught, see or read. We have the power to not kill over faith. I think we sell ourselves short as a race when we float ideas that religion is bad or should be done away with. As humans we have the power it's that we just choose not to use it. In mind it' excuse no matter what any faith teaches. We can have prosperity, we can have no hunger, world peice, etc. All these things are do-able right now. What is trully stopping us but ourselve. We have the power we simply don't have the will to use it. You can do anything when you put your mind to it. As mother used to say "where there's a will there's a way"
The truth hurts dont it . These people speak the truth . just remember a gun does not kill people do and if any of you and myself know this boy i think hispersonal situation needs to be known . i have heardsomethings ,but not confimed by the news so i will hold off on explaining here . God is good and god is love and god loves you and understands your greife . Just remember to have a god there i must be a satan for now .
No, lawbaker, you are not evil. You are just stupid and you don't know where "you" ends and "god" begins.
lawbaker- you need to go back to school to learn grammar and punctuation. Come back when you make sense!
p.s. try using the spell check button!
Lawbaker: You think Franklin Graham has the nerve to say that to a Newtown parents face? I sure don't. In fact, I look forward to the Senate hearings when those parents will get invited to make comments to Republican lawmakers.
Media savvy religious leaders must think that being an Old Testament prophet is financially rewarding because they all seem to want to pretend that is the role they are playing. I don't see much evidence for the proposition that Americans, most Americans anyway, have turned their backs on God. The greatness of America is that we don't all have to believe exactly as Franklin Graham want's us to believe.
By the way, if Franklin Graham wasn't Billy Graham's son would we have ever heard of him?
Hint for Franklin Graham, Old Testament prophets spoke truth to power and were nearly always punished by those they held to account. They didn't drive gold plated BMWs and have lunches with captains of industry and eat power lunches with senators.
Ron Byers, #7
That is surely true of everyone in the New Testament, as well. Including Jesus of Nazareth.
The yoga story is nothing short of astounding. Any Little League coach will always tell you its the parents who make coaching difficult, being with the kids is better than anything in the world. I had a parent yell at me and make this gigantic scene, only to get tapped on the shoulder by the child to tell me he was sorry for his mothers screed.
Graham is right about the so called video games and other forms of violence in the media. Many don't believe it has any effect, but I think it does.
Hmmm, doesn't do it in Great Britian, doesn't do it in Canada.....
The reason many think it doesn't have any effect is because every single study done on the subject has proven that it doesn't.
Or Australia or France . . .
"Ten-country comparison suggests there’s little or no link between video games and gun murders"
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/wp/2012/12/17/ten-country-comparison-suggests-theres-little-or-no-link-between-video-games-and-gun-murders/
People like these are one of the big reasons so many people are turning away from religion. If they believe themselves to be promoting their religion they are seriously mistaken. When one hears their reasoning it's hard not to thing that if they like it, I'm against it.
The first thing I heard at work last Monday morning was a person saying it was God punishing those people.
I believe that if God didn't want this to happen then it wouldn't, but to understand God's purpose and what he is actually thinking is beyond me. People who say they know exactly what God is thinking, frighten me.
Tom 51,#11,
People say a lot of things which frighten me, too. I think it was Twain who said, "It isn't what you don't know that can hurt you; it's what you know for sure that isn't true!"
Yeah, I've posted this a couple of times, so if you've seen it before, just ignore. One of my favorite quotes is this:
I would expand on this that faith includes a sense of wonder and awe. It's saying, I have no idea why this is so, but I simply accept that it's so. There's still a smidgen of doubt, with a choice to overlook it.
JL, #11.2
That's true. For example, I was looking at a video recently that Larry74 put up, and I wish I had it now. It showed EMPEROR PENGUINS with their chicks, in their natural habitat. I was in tears, it was so awesome. I thought to myself, Wow, God, you really have some imagination to come up with these creatures!
I have a Manx cat that is so affectionate and I often get that feeling when I look at him.
(Of course, not when he wakes me at 6:45 AM.) LOL
Please, can we move on?
To those of you who have faith in your g*d, shalom. To those whose faith is in a merciful g*d who is described in the bible's 2nd half, great. To those for whom faith provides no alternative reality with an omniscient, omnipotent, or omni-anything presence leading it, I'm with you.
To those of you ready to acknowledge that NO reasonable fascimile of g*d would have wanted Newtown to occur, much less brought it on?
OK. It's time to return to brass tacks: what must *we* do to reduce the carnage in our world? It's carnage in which we are ALL complicit, if only by our silence.
#11.4 Let's start by forcing out leaders to create safe gun laws, and rid our streets of all assault weapons and dangerous handguns. Let's get the NRA lobbyists like LaPierre out of our political system so he cannot influence our elected officials or the CDC!
Let's try to see those whose skin is a different colour as our brothers and sisters. Let's try being tolerant of other people's religions, as well. Not all Muslims hate us and want to kill us. (for example).
Let's try to realize that we are all in this world together and it is a very small planet and we sink or swim on it as one.
We need a lot of change, don't we. So much has gone wrong. There is a saying about how much things can fall apart when good men stand by and do nothing. Let's try to speak out or act when we see an injustice.
Hey India....If I don't get the chance later....I wanted to go ahead and wish you and your husband a Merry Christmas......I am respecting your request not to debate this topic with you....If you change your mind I promise to be respectful as always with you....Again ....Merry Christmas.
Your Friend,
TAP
Dear India --
You start out by listing the very things I -- and I suspect many of us -- push for, advocate, exemplify. Yes!
But you know, I've grown weary of wishing other people felt like me, or like you: tolerant, loving, respectful, mindful of our environment, et al. Great and important, but there are dangers in wishing all others thought the same as we. Maybe I'm old (I am) and cynical (perhaps), but that seems like an innocuous first step down the slippery slope to Huckabeeism: "If you don't believe what I tell you to believe, God will strike you dead, even if you're 5 years old!"
Don't want to argue shades of gray with crazies or true believers; will discourse with sane folk whose mind are still open. Want to make guns less desirable. Want never, never, never to put my hand on a firearm, and never, never, never want to experience the kind of fear or anger that would make me want to kill someone else (or provoke them in others). Sixty-one years in, so far, so good.
I can't fix anybody else, only me. The best sermon and the holiest person could never convince me that a god has more control over a trigger finger than the single person who owns that finger.
Appreciate your thoughtful, frequent, articulate comments. Take good care.
Thank you so much, Helena. That meant a lot to me. I really appreciated that.
How true that we can't fix anyone else but ourselves. Clearly, the finger on the trigger belongs to the one holding the gun, not God. But the fact that someone decides to do an evil deed such as killing other people is not a good argument for the idea that there is no God.
A lot of people ask, when discussing the holocaust, "Where was God?" I think of it differently. I wonder, "Where was man?" How could so many people turn the other way? Not all did, of course, but so many....evil is a powerful thing. I like a poem by Alexander Pope, and I hope I am saying it right:
Vice is a monster of so frightful mien,
As to be hated needs but to be seen.
Yet seen too oft, familiar its face;
We first endure, then pity, then embrace.
Tap, #11.6 Merry Christmas to you and yours, also. I hope you have a great one!
Your friend, India
TAP, I've already forgotten what we weren't supposed to debate!
Me too India...Our Friendship is more important than any debate to me.....
Let's Jam......Merry Christmas!
Pink Floyd...Learning to Fly....Love and joy to you!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DrGuVa-4BVE
I guess..you'll just have to tolerate...my old dusty avitar.....
TAP: The best one, I think, here we go:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z8euy_OIdi8
One of the amazing by-products of the Internet is the ability of like-minded people who have been "living in silos" to realize that they're not alone. It produced the Arab Spring last year, something that seemed impossible before it happened.
Well, I say that the people who believe that the gun lobby has overstepped its bounds in this country are ready to band together to have their voices be heard. I do not want assault rifles or semi-automatic handguns in the possession of just anyone with a few hundred bucks to lay down. And the availability of ammunition to fill those weapons so that they can kill many before reloading is just as bad.
I have no issue with reasonable gun ownership. It's this prevailing attitude of the need for vigilante justice that is beyond the pale.
here's some data about varying levels of support for gun control from an august survey done by the public religion research institute:
Six-in-ten Catholics and religiously unaffiliated Americans (62% and 60%) favor stricter gun control laws, compared to fewer than half of white evangelical Protestants (35%) and white mainline Protestants (42%).
Nearly one-third (32%) of white evangelical Protestants and 3-in-10 (27%) white mainline Protestants believe that people should be allowed to carry concealed guns in a church or place of worship. By contrast, fewer than 1-in-5 religiously unaffiliated Americans (18%) and Catholics (14%) say that people should be permitted to bring concealed guns to church.
A majority (55%) of Americans who identify with the Tea Party movement support allowing people to bring concealed guns to church, compared to 38% of Republicans, 17% of Independents, and 9% of Democrats.
much more
http://publicreligion.org/research/2012/08/august-2012-prri-rns-survey/
plus some new data
"In Sandy Hook Debate over Gun Control vs. Mental Health, Evangelicals Diverge from Rest of Nation"
http://blog.christianitytoday.com/ctliveblog/archives/2012/12/in-sandy-hook-debate-over-gun-control-vs-mental-health-evangelicals-diverge-from-rest-of-nation.html
Russell, that poll was done in August - wonder what those numbers would be now, considering what has happened lately?
i suspect the different levels of support have hardened and become more divergent, but don't know...needless to say, i'll leave any new data i see here at steve's saturday blog post in the coming weeks
Thanks Russell, I for one appreciate your posts!!!
It is interesting but in just about every poll that has ever been taken in the last couple of years it appears there really are two independent USA's represented: One consisting of right wing evangelical white Republican/Tea Party males and the other consisting of the rest of us.
thanks, i enjoy steve's work and like to add things he doesn't get too
as for "there really are two independent USA's represented" you're quite right...don't miss nate silver's piece on this from the other day
In 1973, about 55 percent of Republicans reported having a gun in their household against 45 percent of Democrats, according to the General Social Survey, a biennial poll of American adults.
Gun ownership has declined over the past 40 years — but almost all of the decrease has come from Democrats. By 2010, according to the General Social Survey, the gun ownership rate among adults that identified as Democrats had fallen to 22 percent. It remained at about 50 percent among Republican adults.
if you go thru all the crosstabs there are only two categories [rural dwellers and military vets] where the gulf between the parties isn't in the 20 point plus range
http://fivethirtyeight.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/12/18/in-gun-ownership-statistics-partisan-divide-is-sharp/
I would like to see this study done with urban vs rural included. I suspect that the split may disappear if urban evangelicals were compared with urban Catholics and rural evangelicals were compared with rural Catholics, etc.
that's an interesting thought, but i suspect the numbers wouldn't be in agreement...while the religion study doesn't have rural/urban crosstabs, nate's party id vs gun ownership post does...and there is a only a modest drop off among the gop as you go from country to city while there's a huge dropoff among democrats...i realize that party id isn't a perfect proxy for religious id but i think it's suggestive at least on the evangelical side
God is God and we are not. I resent the fact that the Grahams, the NRA and whoever claims to speak for God. Why would we limit God that way. All I have to do is look at the Universe and planet Earth to know that someone much bigger than I am is at work here. Why would these people who make lots of money by the way claim they know what is best for the rest of us.
So they can make more money?
JL...,
Don't forget power, which they obviously lust after.
Both of which we were warned about in the Bible. These people seem to see through a different lens than the one I see through.
Money is a good thing, but lusting after it is evil. (As all evil is a perversion of Good).
of possible interest to "twig" readers...continuing developments in the various legal challenges to the birth control section of the aca
court orders updates on birth control mandate opt-out
http://thehill.com/blogs/healthwatch/health-reform-implementation/273697-appeals-court-holds-challenges-to-obama-birth-control-mandate
and two more diverging court decisions on employer requirements
http://religionclause.blogspot.com/2012/12/two-more-decisions-in-challenges-to-aca.html
Whose God? So many folks have at least one. Only his?
and in some happier "twig" news
After hijacking a Westboro Baptist Church leader’s Twitter account on Monday, Wired has confirmed that the 15-year-old hacker known as Cosmo the God took over another account belonging to one of the of the same church members on Wednesday, using much the same method.
A source with direct knowledge of the attack who spoke on condition of anonymity confirmed to Wired that Cosmo had in fact taken possession of Fred Phelps Jr.’s Twitter account. Phelps Jr. is the son of church leader Fred Phelps Sr. Cosmo took over the @WBCFredJR Twitter account via Phelps’ Hotmail account, which he gained entry to by forwarding the password-reset phone number on the Hotmail account to the phone number he controlled, according to Wired’s source.
Previously, Cosmo had control of church spokesperson and attorney Shirley Lynn Phelps-Roper’s @DearShirley Twitter account for about 24 hours before the account was suspended. During that time, Wired’s source also claims that Cosmo remotely recorded gay porn to her DVR, before canceling her internet service.
http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2012/12/cosmo-strikes-again-takes-over-another-westboro-twitter-account/
and
The University of Cambridge scanned and uploaded to the Cambridge Digital Library online thousands of pages from fragile religious manuscripts including the Nash Papyrus, a 2,000-year-old fragment containing the Ten Commandments and part of the Shema prayer discovered in Egypt in the late 19th century.
It is the world’s second oldest known manuscript containing a text from the Hebrew Bible.
http://www.jta.org/news/article/2012/12/21/3115106/worlds-second-oldest-bible-fragment-posted-online
That kid deserves the Medal of Honor!! There's nothing too bad that can happen to the inbred scum of the Westboro Klan.
When one of these for profiteers stands up to condemn his own hypocrisy, and I do not mean the fake tears of remorse when caught with a hooker, I may listen. If there was a reality show where they called each other out and the fans voted, I would watch. If they are welcomed into paradise, I am not so sure I want to be there.
Frank Graham! your father is rolling over in his grave, with the comments you just made. You are not him!!!!! He believed in the Aerican system, as is and now you void his beliefs. You want everyone to follow YOU, and be in your church? We are free to choose, or not to choose, if we want to be in any church at all! This is called freedom of religion!!!!!!!!
I think this is the second time someone has done this when one of the evangelists. As far as I know, Billy Graham is still alive. If I'm wrong, can someone fill me in on when he passed away.
He's still alive. They dragged the poor fellow out to religio-politicize something (can't recall what) just before the election. When I saw the photo, my first thought was that he didn't look like he had the wherewithal to protest being exploited. I recall that he's ~10 years older than my father so he must be 94 or 95 now.
If believing in supernatural beings was the answer, then the Middle East would be awash with the milk of human kindness...
as a recovering southern baptist, i give no small thanks to the frauds who climb into the pulpits everywhere, from megachurches to sheet metal tabernacles, each sunday. for decades they've thundered their contempt and hatred for anyone who waxed heretical in their benighted estimation, especially mormons. but, let one get himself nominated by the republican party, and these weasels from jeffress to graham acclaim themselves (temporarily) tolerant. listen carefully to what is preached the next time the topic arises and you'll get a bracing lesson in hypocrisy. if religion (their kind) is so easily trumped by their politics, why the blue hell should i believe a damned thing they have to say?
Yeah, what she said.
On his Tuesday(12-11-12) broadcast, O’Reilly asked evangelical Texas Pastor Robert Jeffress “why so many Christian leaders are silent when Christianity is under attack" “A lot of Christian leaders have the wrong idea about Jesus,” Jeffress explained. “They see Jesus as this little wimpy guy who walked around plucking daisies and eating birdseed and saying nice things, but never doing anything controversial. The fact is Jesus did confront his culture with truth and he ended up being crucified because of it.”----- He really was not convenient to the established religion as are secular or questioning people today. Try to tell the truth about their hypocrisy and it is deemed a 'war on religion'. It is not going to stop as long as people read, think and question or until they have dumbed down education and legislated silence.
Franklin Graham is a hack. He milks his father Billy's name and image, who he resembles, because he is incapable of earning a living based upon his own meager talents.
If Franklin had been born to into another family he would be an out of work used car salesman. To compare him even to the ambitious scum of Europe that gave us the Holy Office of the Inquisition is to insult ambitious scum everywhere.
These Jesus Freaks are something, aren't they? 20 kids get murdered by a kid who was obviously crazy, and the crazy Jesus Freaks say it happened because crazy kid wasn't Jesus Freak crazy. I wonder what their explanation is for Jesus Freak crazies like Eric Rudolph and Tim McVeigh? McVeigh was a Jesus Freak who killed 169 people, many of whom were children. Did he do this because he wasn't enough of a Jesus Freak? Or could it be that being a Jesus Freak made him crazy? Freaks!
:)
:)