Imagine if congress actually voted for the jobs act, some stimuli and does not play games with the debt ceiling, it could be a good 2013.

My friend, your handle notwithstanding that's seriously magical thinking.

D.C. If I thought that it would come true just because I said or thought it, that would be magical thinking. Clearly I am delusional.

our delusions – like our rationalizations – are what help us make it thru most days.

I thought you said you don't believe in magical thinking! :-)

There's a great saying in sports that applies to these negotiations: Be in a hurry to win, don't be in a hurry to lose.

Obama and the Dems have a decided advantage here, but they should beware of rushing toward an agreement with unnecessary concessions just to beat some deadline mainly concocted by the media and the Republicans. The GOP knows that they're on the ropes. Their only chance for success is that Obama will feel some pressure that doesn't really exist and demonstrate bad judgment by rushing to give away that advantage.

It's not a cliff, Barack. It's, at worst, a gentle slope. There's nothing especially important about January 1 as far as this matter is concerned. Take your time and don't give away the store.

It gets to the point, with this bunch in congress, that you just don't know what you wish for: Cliff/deal. ???????????

Which will hurt the middle class and poor the most???????????? God only knows.

It's a real nail biter.

India . . . The middle class won't be hurt at all by waiting past January 1. As far as income taxes go, whatever agreement is ultimately reached--and there WILL be one to reduce taxes on at least the bottom 98% of income earners--will be made retroactive to January 1, 2013. The President and the Legislative branch have until somewhere around January 15, 2014 to reach an agreement on income tax rates.

As far as the rest of it goes, Obama would be sensible to wait for the "debt ceiling" negotiations that will come up in a couple of months. It's silly for him to give up ANYTHING now. He should save any potential concessions to use when that debate moves onto center stage.

If anything, his hand will be strengthened by waiting. When Republicans start talking about the need to reduce the debt, Obama can make a compelling case that we need to increase taxes on the wealthy and slash military spending even more in order to reduce the debt. Those will be valuable chips to play at that time.

Those receiving unemployment benefits will be hurt unless there's some "small deal" to extend them. However, they will be hurt much more in the long run if Obama makes the kind of terrible deal he made two years ago when extending the Bush tax cuts.

mp Guy, #1.7

OK, Off the damn cliff!

Oh, wait, I forgot to strap the cat in my parachute............OK ....here we go..............

President Obama has a very short time to address his entire second-term agenda before all of Washington becomes transfixed on the 2014 mid-term election. That's a little over a year to address jobs, an economic stimulus, gun control, immigration reform, climate change, election reform, energy, campaign finance reform, and a number of other domestic issues. And then there's the many foreign policy issues along with the natural and man-made disasters and the unforeseen unexpected events that must be dealt with. And of course with the possibility of going over the fiscal cliff, there might be a new recession to address as well.

While I'm an eternal optimist, I have little hope that the current Republican congress will work with the president to address our many challenges. I imagine that Republicans will drag their feet and attempt to obstruct every piece of legislation.

i agree, kaneblues. they are showing us already how things are going to be.

I will do some magical thinking with you, and maybe everybody else do it as well and just maybe, something magical will happen. It is still Christmas time, and miracles happen this time of year! However, I can't see Mitch McConnell coming to an agreement with anyone, especially Harry Reid. I'm still waiting on someone in Kentucky to admit voting for him at least once....they won't.

On another note...Rachel, I just love your show! I watch you at some point every night, cause you are set in stone on my DVR. I have really enjoyed seeing Ezra filling in for you, and wish he would get a show of his own. He is a natural and probably one of the smartest men I have yet to meet in this world. Of course you are the smartest woman...someone ask me once who I would love to have lunch or drinks with and it was a no brain-er, I said you. I hope to see you and Ezra running for political office together here in the near future....remember the song, "You Can't Touch This", that would be you and Ezra. You have my vote! I've been wondering if Ezra is married....if not, he needs to meet my daughter! They would have beautiful children together! See you Monday night, until then, enjoy the rest of your weekend, and Happy New Year!

If a fiscal deal isn't reached, not only will the middle class pay financially, but in pubic services as well. The impact of previously negotiated automatic government cuts that would be triggered by sequestration would be made quickly and in a more indiscriminate fashion. Agencies have reduced their costs, while continuing to provide and invest a portion of their budget in the most anticipated necessary public services with the expectation that Republicans will ultimately act responsibly.

Bad analogy time:

Imagine a family managing their budget under the unpredictability of external factors. Johnny-boy wants to go to science camp this summer. The family has cut family costs and instead of paying for the camp, spends less money in the purchase of a bicycle so Johnny can earn the camp money through a paper route. Suddenly, sequestration knocks on the door, just as the soles of Johnny's shoes come off.

Now, what had always been considered a reasonable fixed expenditure in all previous budgets, is not an option. Johnny is now pedaling his bicycle shoeless in the snow to deliver enough papers to buy himself shoes. More likely than not, Johnny will only have to rely on scotch-guard socks for a few days, which he can throw at the door of the Republicans later.

I miss my mountain bike... (stolen)

Oh for the days when those greedy fools we voted into office actually made an attempt to look like they were representing the people instead of only their rich friends.

Phenner, #1.3 Gosh, I must not be old enough to remember that! LOL

Was that after 1900? Was it after 1953?

Why? we've been hearing since 2001 that Bush rates were for the wealthy. Surely the left wouldn't lie about such a thing. So no worries for the poor and middle class folks.

Annie Oakley: I smell the odor of failure in this post, carefull, your slip is showing. Trying to imply the Republicans look out for anyone other than their financial backers won't fly around here. You have and can do better, need a pep talk?

shooter can only go with Fox news greatest hits, since the election the GOP hasn't told him what to say, after all shooter hasn't had an original thought since the day his daddy took him behind the wood shed and beat originality out of him. As Bill Maher pointed out the right have put themselves in a bubble where no facts get in and no thought gets out.

Shooter,

The Bush rates were disproportionately generous to the rich, and used the regressive payroll tax surplus to cover its effect on the deficit. That does not mean they did not also reduce taxes on everyone else to a lesser extent.

The AMT, Medicare 'doc fix', expiration of extended unemployment benefits, expiration of the payroll tax holiday, and much of the effects of the sequester will also disproportionately hit middle class and poor pocket books. Since 70% of our economic activity is consumer spending, all of this together will depress economic growth.

But as for the Bush Tax Cuts, the central problem was that when coupled with the 'carried interest' rule they had the effect of selectively taxing the investing class at a lower rate than those people that work for a living. This is the GOP picking winners and losers, and it is bad economic practice.

If you think it is good economic practice, please explain why a hedge-fund manager who received a bonus while nearly tanking the economy should be rewarded with a lower total federal tax rate than an ER nurse who saves lives for a living.

You got that right Mr. Kastberg. Look out all you Social Security folks, whose protection was promised by the President and the program has nothing to do with the deficit.

Remember: we gotta find the money to build the F-35, the airplane that doesn't work, that can't land on carriers, whose control system lags 20 seconds behind reality, and for which there is no useful purpose once built. But we gotta worry about all them jjjjobbbbsssss and all that corporate profit.

If the F-35 was killed now, it would solve all the deficit reduction they're talking about because it IS the deficit.

This is the GOP picking winners and losers

As opposed to the left punishing the over $250k crowd? Those who live in glass houses...

As for the carried interest rule, if your side had just pushed to rescind that one particular item, it likely would have passed. It benefits too few people. Meanwhile, the majority of over $250k people pay the full rates on their income.

Shooter . . . The Bush tax cuts were intended to be temporary. They were enacted (if you can believe anything the Bush administration said) to return surpluses to those folks (read, the wealthy) who paid in "more than their share" during the white-hot '90s.

The "over $250K crowd" aren't being "punished." Things are just going back to the way they were before the temporary tax cuts and the way they should have been all along had there been a fiscally responsible Republican administration from 2001-2009.

$250K is a pretty darn hefty income level, especially when they're getting it year after year. Note that we're talking about TAXABLE income; that's what's left after adjustments, deductions, and credits. The gross income levels are usually substantially higher than that, often well above $300K. Taxpayers at higher income levels have many more ways to shield income from taxes than do those farther down the income scale.

Also, let's remember that these folks are still receiving a bigger tax cut than anyone else. They get a rate reduction on $250K of income--with the biggest marginal rate reduction being applied to the last dollars before reaching that level. It isn't as though a different set of rates applies to their first $250K of taxable income.

Shooter,

Since the payroll tax is capped, even with the expiration of the Bush Tax Cuts for the over $250,000 crowd (of which I am a member), the total federal marginal tax rate is higher for the upper middle class than the wealthy.

For example, a married couple of ER nurses making $150,000 in taxable income have a total marginal rate of 43.3% while a lawyer and housewife making $300,000 will have a total marginal rate of 40.1%, and an investment banker and housewife making $1,000,000 in taxable income will have a total marginal rate of 41.1%. (Federal Income Tax rates of 28%, 35%, and 39.6% assumed.)

Again, since people who save lives for a living typically are in the upper middle class and the wealthy is largely populated by those pushing paper or entertaining for a living, why should we reward paper-pushing and entertaining over saving lives? Is an NBA player really more deserving of federal reward than a surgical scrub nurse?

Just thought I'd stop by to thank all you idiots that continue to engage a hemorrhoid in useless, irritating, and stupid banter. It's not like you haven't seen the utter complete lack of understanding from this clownish buffoon.

The rest of us thank you for polluting the page with reams of bullshhit we have to scroll through.

Gentlemen...

The "over $250K crowd" aren't being "punished." Things are just going back to the way they were before the temporary tax cuts and the way they should have been all along had there been a fiscally responsible Republican administration from 2001-2009.

No they are not going back to the way things were. That would mean all the Clinton rates in force, not just the ones to punish the rich.

Also, let's remember that these folks are still receiving a bigger tax cut than anyone else.

No. that is keeping rates where they've been for the last decade. You just want to punish the rich. You are singling them out for special treatment. It's called class warfare.

For example, a married couple of ER nurses making $150,000 in taxable income have a total marginal rate of 43.3% while a lawyer and housewife making $300,000 will have a total marginal rate of 40.1%,

I don't think so. Your nurses are in the 28% bracket and each is paying 5.65% in payroll taxes, for a total of 33.65%. You're off by quite a bit. In addition your complaint about SS taxes is misplaced. There is a wage cap because there is a benefit cap. Unless you want to come out for SS as a welfare benefit, you might want to leave it alone.

See #3.20 below.

I'll go with that . You feed it, it grows .

PWTMTOTH (people with too much times on their hands )

Shooter has nothing better to do than lurk around stirring up ShMitt.

He lives for the reaction to bolster his fragile ego.

You all know the blurb posted with his mission . He does in fact follow it.

"Also, let's remember that these folks are still receiving a bigger tax cut than anyone else.

No. that is keeping rates where they've been for the last decade. You just want to punish the rich. You are singling them out for special treatment. It's called class warfare."

OK, Shooter. Ask your rich friends if they'd rather do the following, so that nobody will be "singled out for special treatment": We will allow them to have the 36% rate, instead of the 39.6% rate on their income. However, we will also eliminate the SS earnings cap. Then, they will be paying 15.3% SS/Medicare tax (slightly less if they're self-employed), instead of the 2.9% they're now paying. Just like the folks at lower income levels. Everybody treated the same.

After all, nobody should get special treatment, right?

I'm willing to bet that those with very high salaries aren't going to be especially interested in your "equal treatment" under those conditions.

To kevofrombenenland, re "The damage the Tea Party has caused is in need of major clean up! When will the interlopers learn theirs is a world view not of this century, nor attached to our democratic heritage?"

The Tea Party is descended from the Confederacy and its adherents are literal enemies of the state -- they say as much, over and over again, they hate our government. They should be barred from taking part in it.

The Tea Party hates government so much... GET OUT! What a bunch of schoolyard bullies. We out nimber them and they need to be put in their place.

This nonsense needs to end.

Their boy lost the election... the President won AGAIN... get the hell over it and do your job! In the real world... If we acted the way most of the RIGHT does, we would have been out of a job long ago. They need a reality check!

They should be barred from taking part in it.

Between the loathsome activities of the teabuggers and a Government that has the power to ban loathsome political parties and views, I'll take the teabuggers any day. They are by far the lesser threat to the Nation.

Oh boy more of the biggest lies Reagan ever spewed from his putrid lips. The wealthy do not pay the majority they would if the IRS could get to their hidden bank accounts in the Tax havens. Poor shooter just uses Reagan fuzzy math to come up with his stupidity on just who pays taxes, here is a clue, it aint the rich.

Annie Oakley: You want active duty underpaid military members to have to "lift their end of the log"? Craven, even by complete wingnut standards.

Yes, the Tea Party is the Confederacy, and yes, they are Enemies of America like all Southern traitors. Thank Tricky Dick Nixon, the fount of all political evil in America, for letting those traitors into the Republican Party with his "southern strategy" 40 years ago. You can date the decline of American politics from that day.

Shooter,

From the beginning of the Federal Income Tax it was designed to hit the rich more than the middle class or the poor. This is because other Federal Taxes hit the middle class and the poor more than they do the rich.

This is still the case. The Federal Income tax makes up less than 50% of federal revenue, with most of the rest of federal revenue coming from the regressive payroll tax.

If you add together the true base payroll tax rate with the marginal federal income tax rate you will find that a police officer, a nurse, or an ambulance driver pay a far higher tax rate than Mitt Romney and the rest of the investor class GOP base. Why is it just to reward the investor class and punish those that save lives?

He's referring to a study taken at the height of the recession- a study which, for the record, is no longer relevant. Right now we're at about 42% who pay income taxes because unemployment has gone down. The study Shooter is referring to only applies to one single fiscal year. Somehow he and other Republicans don't seem to understand that this study was merely a reflection of the recession. As the recession ends so too do the statistics change to reflect the change in the economy. Under Bush at the height of employment his tax cuts raised the number of persons not paying federal income tax to 35%. We can expect that when this recession is over that the number will drop back down to 35%. That was imposed under the Bush tax cuts and is the fault of Republicans (if they feel so inclined to complain). Prior to that only about 20% of the population was exempt from paying federal income taxes. Quite frankly I'm OK for the 42% now that are exempt and will continue to be OK as long as those people don't make enough money. This is, and has always been, a private sector problem.

It kind've amazes me that the supposedly anti-government crowd wants the government to fix all of the private sector's problems. Here we have a problem that the supposed "job creators" are themselves creating. They willingly choose to pay their employees a wage that they know will exempt their employees from having to pay federal income tax. Do they take repsonsibility? No, of course not! The CEO's of WalMart are not to blame for WalMart paying it's employees so little that WalMart employees who work full-time don't pay income tax. Heavens no! That might mean that all that "personal responsibility" bull@!$%# is exactly that- bull@!$%#. And it's really just another meme that people use to excuse irresponsible large businesses.

Look at me: I am a teeny, tiny little business with 5 employees each of whom are paid a livable wage (and I provide health insurance too- GASP!!!). Because I insist on paying my employees a livable wage they then pay federal income taxes. If I insisted on lowering their wage and only paying them 1000$ a month I cannot then turn around and bitch and moan when I'M the only one paying taxes. I'M THE ONE WHO CREATED THE PROBLEM IN THE FIRST PLACE! If the wealthy want more to pay income tax then the wealthy need to pull themselves up by the bootstraps, take some personal responsibility for themselves, and start paying their employees higher wages. And if they don't well that's the employers fault. Let's start blaming the people who need to actually be blamed and stop letting lazy, incompetent, immature business owners pawn off their failures onto the rest of society.

Re: #3.4

"...the rich already pay most of the Federal income tax. It's time for the 47% to lift their end of the log."

That is - IMHO - one of THE stupidest arguments ever, even though it is a standard talking point.

Let's make it clear - the rich pay most of the Federal income tax because they have most of the income!!!!

And the comment about the 47% is just as confused.

Annie Oakley: Yes, the Clinton tax rates allowed us to enjoy a budget surplus. But the unemployment rate was not crises-level, income was more equally spread out, and realistic investment tax rates were in place. Lowering capital gains to 15% was and is a boon to the monied class you folks cowtow to. I say all rates should tick up a little bit, and capital gains should go to 20% while we close the hedge fund carried interest loophole. That way we can boost the economy by saves and hires of teachers, cops, and firefighters.

Re: 3.4

"Sorry guys, but the rich already pay most of the Federal income tax. It's time for the 47% to lift their end of the log."

^^^ By making a broad statement such as this, it goes to show how little you've analyzed and studied the data.

#1. Yes, the rich pay a very large portion of federal income tax.
(What you're missing) It's because they control a very large portion of the wealth. Hello, Income Disparity.

#2. Do you know why the 47% aren't paying income tax? Because they're poor. And, no, being poor isn't the new cool thing to be doing. It isn't a choice, like "choosing" to be gay. And before anyone starts, do a bit of research and analyze who the 47% consists of. (Hint: Seniors, disabled, students, and those making <20K)

#3. The rich are not paying their fair share. Don't start. Look at Romney: $13.7M in income (2011) and he pays 14.1% in federal income tax. Meanwhile, I'll be paying nearly 19-20% (state + federal tax) combined and I make less than $90K. How am I paying more (%-wise) in taxes than a guy who made $13.7M?

The absurdity of it all.

Shooter

Payroll taxes are over $2.5 trillion in surplus since 1986 to pay for retirement of the baby boom, when the trusts would cover the anticipated shortfalls. That was the plan signed by President Reagan, conjure up his ghost and complain to him. Also, refusing to honor the bonds in the trusts means that the payroll tax is just another income tax and that the caps should be removed.

Yes, average tax rates are different than marginal tax rates. The total federal marginal tax rates on the upper middle class are higher than those on the rich, but the rich whose income is earned income pay a slightly higher rate on average because more of their income is subject to the upper end of the tax schedule.

Of course, those with income from investments and inheritance pay much lower rates.

Again, why is it right to reward upper management, a sports start, or an investment banker with a lower total marginal rate than a surgical scrub nurse?

Just thought I'd stop by to thank all you idiots that continue to engage a hemorrhoid in useless, irritating, and stupid banter. It's not like you haven't seen the utter complete lack of understanding from this clownish buffoon.

The rest of us thank you for polluting the page with reams of bullshhit we have to scroll through.

@DWITA

I only wanted to respond to his comment this time because I wanted to point out the utter stupidity of claiming that someone is the job creator and the person with all the wealth while simultaneously complaining that someone is being taxed too much as compared to the people they hire and the wealth they control, but for some reason refuse to distribute.

The paradoxes of right wing thinking continue to keep me amused. But you are correct that engaging a debate with someone who doesn't know what they're talking about is pointless.

I promise I won't scratch again!

Payroll taxes are over $2.5 trillion in surplus since 1986 to pay for retirement of the baby boom, when the trusts would cover the anticipated shortfalls.

Where do you think the money comes from to pay interest on said trust? Income taxes/general revenue. Where does the money come form to make up the shortfalls between tax revenue and benefits? Income taxes/general revenue. There is no separate bunch of money for SS.

Also, refusing to honor the bonds in the trusts means that the payroll tax is just another income tax and that the caps should be removed.

It IS just another income tax, and it's capped because the benefits are capped. There is actually a connection between what you pay for SS and what you get in benefits.

Again, why is it right to reward upper management, a sports start, or an investment banker with a lower total marginal rate than a surgical scrub nurse?

To repeat above, your two married nurses are in the 28 + 5.65= 33.65% bracket. The rich are in a 35 + 1.45(medicare)= 36.45 bracket. Looks like a higher marginal rate to me.

Re: #3.18

"To repeat above, your two married nurses are in the 28 + 5.65= 33.65% bracket. The rich are in a 35 + 1.45(medicare)= 36.45 bracket. Looks like a higher marginal rate to me."

First, by specifically mentioning "upper management, a sports start, or an investment banker", I would deduce that John refers to those that derive their income from long-term capital gains. And with LT gains capped at 15%, they have a natural advantage.

Second, those same wealthy investors also deduct business expenses and take whatever loopholes they can find. By doing so, they're able to pay less than 15% of federal income tax.

Shooter, you must be bright enough to comprehend where we're going this + understand our perspective.

If so, why dodge it? If not, you're in some sort of denial.

Shooter,

Bonds in the trusts are special, interest free, bonds.

If the bonds are not honored, you break the link between the tax and the benefits and the caps should be removed.

The true value of the payroll tax is 15.3% after the tax holiday expires. Look up self-employment tax if you are confused. 28%+15.3% = 43.3%. Since the negotiations are over making rates permanent, the payroll tax holiday should be factored out.

Yep, the tax rates you defend reward paper-pushers and entertainers over people saving lives, and this will still be the case even after raising taxes on the upper 2%.

Now I am off for the day, leaving some electrons for Disgusted's speculation concerning a 'cave'. Apparently there is an electron shortage...or perhaps a more general lepton shortage?

Shooter, simple question. How many of the top 2% lost money with the Clinton tax rate? How many made much money with those tax rates? Why?

You're ignoring context.

In Clinton's time we had a an internet revolution, and market bubble, no real war, and a President that seemed to like business, and whose worst problem was womanizing. Today we have a President killing the energy revolution, doing nothing to solve the foreclosure bubble, openly printing 'counterfeit' money, and seems to hate business.

Tax rates matter a lot in recession, not so much in prosperity. The only real issue is whether one thinks he can make more money than the taxes take away.

This is a real cognitive dissonance problem for the left. Everything in life that concerns goods and services revolves around making money. If somebody can't make money with a good or service they close up shop and go on welfare.

But... the left hates, hates, hates, people that make money via business. That fundamental conflict is why we have the new normal of stagnation. It's why communist countries are gray, dreary, and poor. Any more questions?

@ John s e

I have been talking about how to slowly retire those bonds for years.

Your point, about honor them or remove the cap, is just spectacular. Wish I had thought of it.

I'm on Soc. Sec. now. I say no way they can not honor them [at least until there is a real crisis, like a very large meteorite or maybe the eruption of one of Earth's mega-volcanoes].

Until then, a contract is a contract. Repubs love to say that, so why not apply it here.

I say pass a special temporary (for 30 - 40 yrs) tax mostly on the rich and imported goods (with exemption if it's from a country with a good Sec. Sec. system) to raise just enough money each year to retire just enough bonds to cover the Soc. Sec. short fall.

I claim that this must have been the plan back when Regan signed the bill into law. Borrowing it from China or taxing the working class could not have been the plan since the whole idea was that the fewer workers would not be able to pay enough payroll tax to support the numerous retired baby boomers.

Reagan was insane he believed he could balance the budget by creating low wage service jobs and riding the country of high living wage jobs which is why he took the country off the industrial economy and pushed a service economy which we still have today. Part of the reason the working poor has exploded in the last 30+ years. What Reagan's only success was he found new groups of people to tax, the paper/lawn boy/ the baby sitter, tips, he said it would show kids that paying their share of taxes was the American thing to do as good citizens. Reagan was a sham made immortal by really stupid people.

My take too, Dis...

Especially if they pull back on cuts to the military..

Well, I hope I'm wrong. But Democrats have had too many chances to stop this right-wing lurch and they have yet (spinelessly) failed to take it. The reasons are manifold, not the least being the money awash in politics and Democrats are beholden to big money donors, but if they'd played the politics correctly instead of taking the easy, cowardly way out every time, the country would easily rally behind getting money out of politics.

It's depressing to imagine that Obama is fighting to make PERMANENT stupid Bush tax policy for 98% of tax payers. How can anybody consider that anything but damn near complete W Administration and Republican victory. If Obama and his economic team had a brain, continuation of the W tax cuts would be tied only to economic growth or unemployment. Once growth rose to a certain level or unemployment went below a certain level, tax rates would (and should) return to Clinton era levels.

One has to consider the possibility Obama is nothing but a Manchurian candidate. Or an jellyfish. Whatever he is, he's an economic ignoramus while Republicans are either economic retards or vicious asswholes (or both).

The way I read mr benen , is that obama is saying " take the gop deal and go with it " ?

Obama and Reid seem to like their chances:

Hopefully steve is reading his tea leaves wrong on this ,

The "CHANCE" that they can write something THE HOUSE will pass?

We all fought our ass's off in the last election , only to cave to pretty much every gop demand?

Something that NEVER gets mentioned , obama caved on ending the bush tax cuts in 2010 , so instead of paying down the debt , we got 2 years of squabbling over what revenues were left

Ending tax breaks for those above the $400 grand mark will only hit the repeat button on all this , the gop will be able to justify gutting everything again , and by not increasing revenue , they are given cover once again for their inability to govern

What a complete waste , if this were to occur all over AGAIN

One has to consider the possibility Obama is nothing but a Manchurian candidate. Or an jellyfish. Whatever he is, he's an economic ignoramus while Republicans are either economic retards or vicious asswholes (or both).

Sadly, I have to agree with you. I do think it's more "jellyfish," but you can make the Manchurian candidate push with the fact that if we had the politics we used to have, he'd have been a Republican like Senator Edward Brooke of Massachusetts.

It makes sense that the people with the most money pay the most taxes. One percent of the people have more money than the other ninety percent. It is time to put that 47% thing to rest. The so called American dream is more of a myth. If some of those people with all the money would pay decent wages and benefits the lower income people would have more money and be able to pay more taxes. The heirs of Sam Walton have about 100 billion dollars between them, but Wal-Mart doesn't pay their employees and keeps many of them as part time so they can't get health insurance. It is said that people with all the wealth create jobs, but the fact is that the only jobs created by most of the rich is for domestic help. If you have a lot pay a lot.

I agree with Disgusted in that Dems have had many chances to stop the Republicans from dragging the country even further to the right. What are Dems going to do when the next Republican president and Congress do even more right wing legislation/policies? It is time for the Dems to drag the country back to the center because Republicans will keep moving the center to the right so long as Dems let them. This is exactly what the Koch Bros. and their ilk want to do. It is a long term project for these radicals of the right wing. We are incrementally moving further to the right as time passes. Dems need to make a stand and stop negotiating away their moderate positions. They need to stake out a more left of center position and stick to it just like the right wing radicals. It will polarize politics even more, but after some time the right wing will realize the left is no longer going to roll over every time the radical right stamps it feet. At the same time, the President can tell the right wing he cannot control the Dem Congressional caucus so the right wing will have to come up with something that the progressives will pass. This is the same tactic that Republicans, especially Boehner is using; he keeps telling the president he has no control over his caucus so the president has to move off his position. Imagine Boehner's surprise when Obama tells Republicans he and the Congressional Dem leaders cannot control their caucus so Republicans are going to have to move off their position. When Boehner goes back to his caucus they will choke because the game is over. That is why Dems need to go over the cliff. And the President gets to stay above the fray looking like a moderate.

Another tactic the Dems can use when the Republicans hold the debt ceiling hostage is for the Senate Dems to send out a budget with all House Republican earmarks stripped out when the House Republicans demand budget cuts. Then Reid and Obama can tell the House they have no control over the Senate Dem caucus while telling the public the Dems have cut the budget. That should really make the House Republicans choke. I would expect the hostage taking would end rather quickly.

What the Democrats OUGHT to do is state unequivocally NO MORE COMPROMISES. None. Nada. Zilch. Zero. Period. Not on taxes. Not on Earned Benefits (SS, Medicare), not on the debt ceiling, NOTHING.

The center position is REVERSING the 30+ years of failed conservative economic ideas and policies, not continuing the duh mass compromising.

Maybe even better: give Republican EVERYTHING they want for two years.

- Balanced budget. RIGHT.PHU.KING.NOW

- Social Security cuts: RIGHT.PHU.KING.NOW. Let the seniors voting Republican and clamoring for Social Security cuts for future generations get them themselves.

- Medicare cuts: RIGHT.PHU.KING.NOW. Let the seniors voting Republican and clamoring for Medicare cuts for future generations get them themselves.

Then stipulate defense and non-defense spending have to be cut equally.

Two years. Let this goddammned stupid country feel the stupidity that is conservatism and Republican ideology.

RIGHT.PHU.KING.NOW.

Get this shhit over with.

DWIA

That is my response to dems who are frightened of gutting the filibuster , they fear the gop will take a hatchet to SS ......Well , let the gop voters vote these stooges in , watch them trash SS , then witness the melt down of the gop voters screaming WHAT DO YOU THINK YOUR DOING???????

LMAO , it would be a riot to watch unfold

The working class 47% who just tried to vote romney in are clue less

The Dems cannot publicly say they will not compromise on any issues. It is far better for them to sound reasonable but act as crazy as the Teabaggers. Obama and the Dems can play the same game but better than the House Republicans because the public does not perceive them as uncompromising and far left. The president can play the Republicans by using Boehner's tactics against him. Demand everything, pretend to compromise when you are not and use a lot of meme's like "job creators." In private, Obama and Reid can keep saying they cannot control the Senate Dem caucus so Republicans are going to have to move because a small group of Dems refuse to budge on their core principles, income tax fairness, Medicare, SS and Medicaid. When the Dems refuse to blink and start using similar tactics the Republicans will no longer be able to use the "I can't control them" line without running into the same from Dems. Let Republicans understand that hostage taking works both ways--take the House Republican earmarks hostage.

That wouldn't work, though. The GOP has extremely STUPID ideas and policies. But they know they can't pass cuts to SS and Medicare on current beneficiaries. They can and will pass them on future generations, and the future generations will sit back and take it because they've been lead to believe by Republicans, cowardly Democrats, and a stupid-beyond-belief media that SS and Medicare won't be there.

That's why I insist Republicans get what they want RIGHT.PHU.KING.NOW! Let America feel it. REALLY feel it. For two years. That would end this shhit. Forever.

That being said, the filibuster needs to be reformed. The Constitution has shown itself to be bad enough in its foresightedness in the event of an extremist party so it can't be allowed for the rules of the Senate to contribute to that. Unfortunately, Democrats are goddamned useless when it comes to wielding power. They can't be made to hurt somebody's feeling, now can they? Or fail to consider a million possible scenarios where one might turn out badly for them?

Hence, my name.

I didn't say they had to publicly say "No Compromise." (Hell, they get charged by Boehner and McConnell with that even now, you'll note.) But with some public education outreach, which Democrats have irresponsibly failed to do for 30 years, they could get there. And I don't think it would take too long to do it. But the bottom line is, the Democrats MUST stop compromising. Full stop. No more.

The Democrats must learn to win. To absolutely crush the opponent. No mercy. Laugh at them, spit in their face, and humiliate them on the order of beautiful women laughing and pointing at them naked. It's the only thing that will work on the conservative psychology. Because these people are truly divorced from reality and f cked up in the head.

If the Republicans in the House force us to go off the "cliff" then Obama and the Dems need to extract a price. Once the tax cuts expire, the Republicans are at a disadvantage because they are under pressure from public opinion and from their campaign contributors as well as the Tea Party. Because of the Tea Party, the Republicans have passed up the "Grand Deal" and now they are passing on the "Fair Deal." There is no point in rewarding their obstinacy by leaving the current deal on the table after January 1. A penalty must be extracted so that the Republicans and the Tea Party hurt enough that another battle over the debt ceiling will be less attractive. After Jan 1, Obama and the Dems can leave the Republicans out on the limb long enough for public anger and disapproval to build. The Dems should not rescue them from their own stupidity. Sixty days is a short period of time and the public anger is fresh enough so that a manufactured debt ceiling crisis will be less likely. If the Tea Party wants to create this crisis, then establishment Republicans will have to make a really hard choice. If they desert the TP, then it will be a lot easier for them to break on other issues. And it will isolate the TP and their backers. This would break the TP, Koch Bros, Freedom Works, Grover Norquist, et al. If the establishment Republicans stick with the TP, then it will be a millstone around their necks. And that could be fatal in the next House elections.

I have no confidence Democrats understand the biggest problem of the country is political. None whatsoever. If they did, they'd ensure there was no deal, and then simply punish the living shhit out of Republicans on each and every item. If there's some short-term pain, great! (No, I don't relish throwing people off unemployment insurance.) It could all easily be blamed on Republicans if Democrats had balled. They should be itching to pick a fight.

Conservatives have done TOO much damage with their 30+ year failed economic jihad. It's time to kick the basturds in the balls, humiliate, and laugh at them. Pick the damn fight (there's no end of ways to do that under the circumstances right now), educate the country, and send these asswholes back to the pre-Enlightenment!

DWIA, Tell me Obama isn't going to cave. TELL ME! I will never forgive him if he drops the ball this time, when it is actually in his court!

Go over the cliff. I'm tearing out my hair now...I can't bear it if he gives even an eighth of an inch to these vultures.

Things can be fixed once the Bush tax cuts expire and some needed cuts are made to defence. They can get the unemployment checks up and running after the first! They can lower the taxes on the 99% of us easily after the first!

Even the flat-Earth crowd would agree to lowering taxes on 99% of Americans!

I wish I had confidence he won't cave, but I have none whatsoever. I know the Obama personality type. Have worked around it forever. My guess is that whatever McConnell can shove down Reid's throat is what Obama will sign. To me, it looks like what has been going on is nothing more than Republicans assuming Obama will cave, so they play big obstinate asswholes to the very last minute as we've seen. Then, when there's no time for a public or liberal backlash to build and on a Friday and New Year's weekend before 1/1/13, they get Reid to cave to McConnell then send it over to Boehner who's already agreed to allow it to come to a vote. Democrats in the House will then pass it along with a few Republicans. Obama caves on all but some puny, lameass tax cuts, Republicans run on it in 2014, and Democrats take the blame because they're too stupid at politics. We've seen it before. Repeatedly.

Then we get the debt ceiling.

Yeah, I'm this disgusted with Democrats and their history over the last 20 years, and yes, I think Democrats are so stupid, ineffectual, and impotent politically that this scenario could play out just like that.

Good god, I hope not. Because if it does, we might as well have just went ahead and elected Mitt Romney and got the erasure of the 20th century over with or given any decision making over to the brain-dead red states. Because to piss away this victory on 11/6/12 will simply embolden them all over again and it will never stop. Obama will have blown his second chance to put away the rightward lurch the country has taken with Reagan. I will NEVER forgive him. Ever.

Me either. Never. And Scorpios never forget.

DWIA

I think you under estimate how crazy the gop are right now , as I realize you do know already , but this last bill they just tried to pass raised taxes on workers , while cutting taxes for the wealthy even more , they are over board crazy already

In reality what you present would make more sense for sure , but they are not making decisions based on reality any more , and they are still getting 47% of voters , while the press give them cover , they are not any where close to holding back on the crazy right now imo

If these mindless greedy lunatics get the chance , they will gut SS in real time , and then just explain / lie to everyone and tell them their money is safe in wall st , oh and they had to use a big chunk of it to pay off the debt , by by SS

And of course they would pay the people on it at that point , then reduce everyone on SSDI by 1/2 , but for anyone not on ss , it would be done , besides the parcel they would throw at wall st for everyone else

Huh? Me underestimate the GOP obnoxiouscrazysickmalignancy? Not a fu king chance in the world. I know exactly what sick malevolent cruelty that party represents. Nobody hates that overgrown forest of dickweeds more than me. NOBODY. And I do mean HATE.

#4.20

I hate them, I really hate them and I don't say that lightly.

IMO, they are truly ruining the country.

They've truly, truly earned it. And they are actively trying to ruin the country. In the strictest sense of the phrase, it's a religious crusade and experience for them.

If that were true , they would have done it by now imo

Wow can you believe scrooge is still alive. Here is a clue people do not get to pick the numbers in the birth lotto nor do private charities provide more then a short term solution to a long time problem at best they are an emergency band aid when all other resources are gone. That you want to blame every politician is laughable, here is a clue, it was the people that demanded government to fix the poor problem just like it was the people that demanded the government to fix civil rights as well as women getting voting rights. I understand you just blame government because an insane retired soap salesmen told you that it was governments fault for these solutions. It is rather amusing it doesn't bother you that corporations do their best to get government to do things for them, like the interstate road system we have today for example. BTW it is also rather insulting to imply that religious cults help everyone they don't they pick and choose who they want to help even the salvation army employs that tactic. What are the poor supposed to do when they are tuned down by these religious cults, that was what made people pressure government to do something, the organizations you try to credit fell flat on their faces during the great depression as well as even today they are limited to help all of those in need. What you expect an elderly disabled person to get a job. then whine in the next breath that there is high unemployment. Really all you are doing is whining without a clue about a workable solution to a major problem created by the greedy.

Fear barely motivates the Republicans, and public opinion does not move the needle at all. A petition aint gonna cut it...

Instead of commenting we should be emailing and calling our President, senators and congresspersons.

White House hotline: 1-212-456-1111. Call.

I think Boehner will only try a "majority of the majority" only after he is re-elected Speaker of the House. No way can I see him working with democrats and a few like minded republicans before he gets his re-election.

#10,

I agree, I agree, I agree.....Off the cliff!

On Three: one, two, three: JUMP!

just remember that the spending bills still have to originate in the HOR...which for the next two years at least...is still controlled by the Republicans.

just saying,,,

Then I guess you need to quit blaming President Obama for spending policies right?

Larry 74, Obama has a good record of cutting spending, but the righties don't believe that.

India...is that why spending is up nearly 20% so far this fiscal year?

Larry...yep...just as soon as you stop blaming Bush for the same thing from 2006 - 2010 while the Democrats had control of the HOR.

just saying...

Poor re reg been watching Fox news again.

Too bad he didn't get vaccinated against Fox Noise. I got mine years ago.

You'd better be glad he's the one steering this ship of state.

Funny, I thought it was on the hard working backs of the lowly citizen from which the rich got their money.

It is where they got it from! Whites had nothing when they so called discovered America! I have to refere to race because the Republican Party is nothing more than a more educated form of the KKK. They have done nothing but rob-steal-kill and destroy since the placed their lilly white feet our soil.

So why are the GOP rich still screaming for tax cuts and refusing to help pay off the debt? GOP logic fail , once again

Yup. They literally have lost every honest American who does not put money, guns, or religion over everything.

Cliff Pfiscal,

We want what you said. I have a wish list:

End the Afghan war sooner rather than later.

Pass a large stimulus.

Legalize pot and end the war on drugs. (I don't smoke)Or snort or shoot or whatever, but this is not a winnable war.

Means test Medicare. The wealthy should pay more.

End the T-Party.

Um... new to politics? The "fiscal cliff" is a Republican creation. In a nutshell, it is a matter of the right wing blackmailing the country, stating that if they don't get their way, they'll destroy the country. Again. In the 1990s, we had the same thing, calling it the "threat of govt shutdown." They demanded that Bill Clinton hand over our poverty relief programs (specifically, General Assistance and AFDC). Clinton did, so the Republicans agreed to that year's budget. This time, predictably (and predicted), they are ordering President Obama to give them all the money we've paid into Social Security, or they will destroy the country. Now it gets personal for the middle class (which really didn't care about the poor). The fact that it is Republicans who are entirely willing to destroy the country if they don't get their way should give you some clue about who is responsible for our dire situation.

I sense sarcasm, Cliff. Well, thank heavens, my family will be OK. Over the cliff or not, we will be OK. I just worry about the working poor and the elderly and the truly poor.

I worry about the deficit and the debt; we need revenue and the wealthy have been a bunch of slackers. They need to put some money in the kitty.

OK, Cliff.

I saw the Promised Land, too.

Matt Damon was good in that.

Then who in the hell am I feeding through my church's food bank? Wake up to reality, Cliff. People go to bed hungry here. As for Afghanistan or the Congo, I don't live there. I live here, in the USA with plenty of poor people in this area.

I thank God every day that I am not one of them. The least I can do is help them.

I will never understand people like you. I'm not sure I want to!

There isn't a 10% bracket. The bracket starts at 15%.

There are people living in tent cities by the thousands, there are people who do not know if they will have a meal every day here, thousands die from cold and heat related illnesses because they do not have home, thousands more die from not having adequate access to medical treatment. No what you mean to say is that the US poverty is not as extreme as it is in other nations. You don't mean that poverty doesn't exist here you mean that it isn't as rampant. Since no one claimed that it was rampant this is, of course, a logical fallacy. But let's put that besides.

People have to have money in order to survive in a monetary based system, yes?

If people do not have money then they cannot survive.

Thus any system in which this happens meets the qualification for "poor." The fact that poverty in the US doesn't exist in it's largest portions as it does in other nations- like my home of India- does not mean it isn't here. But of course this assumes that you want to be factually accurate or logically coherent.

And no the wealthy do not pay 90% of the taxes not even close. Even if you take the ludicrous figures from the recession survey that conservatives keep regurgitating- where the 47% number comes from- the wealthy only made up 55% of the income taxes. What you mean to say is that the wealthy have 80% of the total national wealth and yet they only pay 55% of the taxes. Let's get them up to 80% and then we can start talking about raising everyone else's taxes. Fair is fair.

Thank you, Cartoonthe news. Well said. I, too, have seen third world poverty and I understand it is different. That does not negate the fact that people in the US are in poverty, and hungry. I see that, as well.

Cliff, Yeah, those lazy old 78 year olds, 80 year olds, little kids, the severely handicapped. What a bunch of freeloaders. They need to get off their lazy a##es and get a job.

(Actually, that list would hardly benefit me at all! ) I wouldn't say I was self serving. I'm just an average person; I like peace and I like to see people do well.

I am sorry that upsets you. I think most people would agree with my wish list.

BTW I'm not a liberal.

You don't have to convince me that the 2% pay 55% of the taxes....I know they do.

No the upper 20% of income earners pay 55% of the nation's income tax and yet they hold 80% of the wealth. That's referring to individuals like myself as well as mostly anyone who makes 100k+/year. We should be paying a higher rate because we have more of the wealth concentrated in our income bracket.

Just be grateful that the rich pick up most of the tab for this country.

You do realize that if this is true then you are agreeing that taxing the rich is the only logical tax policy that can exist, yeah? Congratulations you've just agreed to the liberal tax plan. Good job

The lazy!!!!! The selfish!!!!! The useless!!!!! The criminal!!!!! The addicted!!!!! The stupid!!! The liberal!!!

So let me get this straight: everyone you just mentioned in your list is on government assistance? You do realize that you admitted to being on government assistance, yeah? So are you the stupid, the selfish, the useless, the criminal, the addicted, the lazy, or the liberal? Or are you a combination therein? Congratulations dude: you just agreed with me that you are the person you're attacking.

Which is kind've unfair. I don't agree with you politically, but even I wouldn't seriously call you stupid, lazy, criminal, addicted, selfish, etc. Although since you're on social security and since you clearly don't know what the term liberal means I would call you that.

That wish list of yours is typical of a liberal...............SELF SERVING!!!!

So those who receive assistance from the public are self-serving. But you stated that you receive assistance from the public. So you're self-serving. Dude, Cliff, do you need to talk to a psychiatrist about this??? It seems to me you're suffering from some mental disorder like depression. Don't be so hard on yourself man!

By his lat comment it's obvious cliff watches Fox Lies and buys every word of their BS. Wonder if he knows how to use Google? It's really easy to all kinds of info. But I'd really prefer he keeps showing us his ignorance to facts. We all need a good laugh once in a while.

I have no choice but accept what you call "public assistance" SS is the law, a dumb law, but nevertheless the law. I'd be glad to get back just what I put in, but that won't happen.

KKKliff's post translated: I am too ignorant to realize that I live off of a government check and government run medicare. I am that person that I accuse others of being: a lazy old coot ignorant moocher.

You're welcome.

SS is the law, a dumb law

You are not legally forced to receive social security benefits. That's why you filled out all of that paperwork to get your SS benefits. If you don't want to receive SS then you don't have to. Simply don't fill out the paperwork. The fact that you choose to is exactly that- a choice. You are doing so because, by your own logic, you are a liberal freeloader who uses government money because you're too lazy to work and you were too lazy to save up and retire on your own. Again that wasn't my argument- that's what you've been saying.

Cliff, Give your SS check to the poor! Then you'll feel better and won't be taking anything from the BEAST! Forget that "dumb law", you can give that tainted money to charity!

See, there's always a way around things.

A lot of seniors like SS. It keeps them from living with their kids. I know my parents loved it! My dad played golf every day! And he thanked heaven every day he didn't have to live with me!!!

Cartoon....

Our tax system is not based on the wealth a person has, it is based on the income they receive each year. There is a huge difference between the two.

just saying...

Our tax system is not based on the wealth a person has

Completely false. You pay taxes on property, sales, trade, exchanges, savings, investments, and other benefits pending on what they are in, how much, and how often you touch them. We tax wealth in this country- not just income. Now you could argue that income taxes should be taxed only on the basis of net income each year, but if we are going to go that route then I want to see capital gains, property taxes on home values over a certain percentage, estate taxes, and other taxes go up to compensate for it. Most people in the upper 20% would prefer that you not tax them higher rates on those other assets. I personally don't want to see property taxes go up because that in turn increases property rents and that in turn costs my business more. So the compromise is to tax them at a higher rate of income taxes in exchange for the wealth monopoly that those in the upper 20% possess in other areas. You cannot simultaneously bitch that you want 0% in capital gains and 0% on stock trades or bond trades while then complaining that your 25-28% rate is too high. It's an either/or.

But even if we talked about the income earned the upper 20% comprised they would still be taxed at roughly 20% below what they actually contribute to the total income tax rate. Either way you slice those in the upper 20% of income earners- myself included- are not paying our fair share. I don't want my taxes to go up. Oh god how I hate paying taxes if only because of the expletive paperwork. But I am not going to be put in a situation where my pockets get stuffed while someone else starves or needs that money. My faith won't allow me to do it, my own personal conviction won't, and my own personal morality won't. And I am appalled and I openly reject anyone and everyone who puts me in a position where I have to choose between such a deplorable dichotomy.

Cartoon....your statement was..."No the upper 20% of income earners pay 55% of the nation's income tax and yet they hold 80% of the wealth". You are the one who mixed the two together.

Which one do you want to talk about, income tax or all the other taxes.

Other than yourself, who has stopped you from paying your fair share since you feel so guilty about not doing it? You are free to pay more to the government every year if you want. No one is forcing you to take all of the deductions that I assume you list on your return.

just saying...

Cartoon....your statement was..."No the upper 20% of income earners pay 55% of the nation's income tax and yet they hold 80% of the wealth". You are the one who mixed the two together.

No I didn't mess the 2 up. My statement was that even though they hold 80% of the wealth they only pay 55% of the income taxes. Unless you want to start taxing everything at a higher rate- in which case I could agree with the 55% number- then this number should be increased. You need to read what I actually write for comprehension.

Other than yourself, who has stopped you from paying your fair share since you feel so guilty about not doing it? You are free to pay more to the government every year if you want. No one is forcing you to take all of the deductions that I assume you list on your return.

I don't feel "guilty" about anything. Do not put words in my mouth- you've done it twice now in one post. The upper 20% need to pay more for a variety of reasons the least of which is our horrible deficit problem. You have complained about this very problem, so I don't want to hear about the wealthy not needing to contribute more. Contrary to popular conservative belief you cannot just write a blank check to to the federal government. If you write a blank check to the IRS over a certain amount it gets returned automatically. You should actually look up the donations law for the national deficit instead of spouting off that talking point. And actually aside from the business expenses I'm legally mandated to take (yeah actually there are some deductions that you have to take (not all deductions are voluntary)) I don't take any tax deductions. I've said this multiple times on several different posts.

But I do love this idea. Collectively the tax rate has to be paid in order to pay off the deficit. You do not disagree with this when it comes to the "47%", but interestingly enough somehow it magically stops applying to those who are already paying. Amazing how that hypocrisy works, 'eh? If the legally mandated amount is the only standard by which a person should be judged in terms of their income tax (as you suggest with myself) then why judge those who are legally required to pay nothing in income taxes, hmm? It appears to be that when the argument favors the policies you want then suddenly the collective problem we all face becomes reality. But when the argument doesn't favor the policies you want then the cognitive dissonance can't come fast enough.

How much wealth a person has does not and should not have any impact on how much federal INCOME tax a person pays under our current form of taxation. If I have $500,000,000 in net worth (because I won the Powerball lottery in 2010, none of which is drawing any interest, but I live off the principle, I will not pay any INCOME tax to the Federal government. It does not matter how much money I have in my WORTH, if I do not have INCOME. My net worth has already been taxed previously when I first obtained it. (and for purposes of this discussion I am not talking about capital gains in any form)

Here is the website to go to in order to help pay off the national debt...its not that hard...

https://www.pay.gov/paygov/forms/formInstance.html?agencyFormId=23779454

All citizens need to pay more, not just the top 20%. We all benefitted from the lower Bush tax rates and we all should help to erase the deficit which has skyrocketed. There is no hypocrisy on my end regarding this. I have no problem with any person taking the legal tax deductions they are allowed to take..whether that is you or me or Obama or Romney or anyone else. What I have is a problem with the laws that allow it, Unlike the Liberals who attacked Romney for doing exactly what they do. Current law allows the 47% to exist...it is time to change the law.

I support... www.fairtax.org

just saying...

LOL!!!! I just love seeing all the comments collapsed by the community made by KKKliff! LOL!!!! Let's kick troll ass everyone! LOL!!!!

And stormfront will always be a right wing troll posting right wing bull@!$%# on this thread because it just loves seeing its writing posted SOMEWHERE. Makes it feel important! LOL!!!

Keep kicking troll ass, Cartoon!

So now we've reached the point where, when all your arguments are exhausted, you regurgitate the same arguments we've already covered. I've already addressed why the "fair tax" is an oxymoron, a joke, and bad for the economy. I've already addressed the IRS contribution issue. I've already addressed the income tax issue. Your entire response was a non-sequitur to rehash the same statements. If you didn't want to rebut then you should've just let it go there. Since we've reached the re-hash point I'm going to take that as my queue to exit. See you some other time.

In other words...run like the liberal dog you are...sounds like you belong in France...

just saying...

In other words...run like the liberal dog you are...sounds like you belong in France...

DING DING DING!!! Now stormfront shows its true troll self, just likes blanks and KKKliff! WONDERFUL!!!

Just saying.....

And KKKliff, the over 50 yr old dude that depends on the government check and the government medicare still spouting its usual ignorant bull@!$%#.

Good for trolls everywhere!!!

LOL!!!

Just sayin....

WAIT... I have a solution that will please everyone! We should divide the national debt into Republican/ Democrat contributions, and each party will pay off their share within 10 yrs? All registered Republicans can sign up to pay off the debt accrued under Reagonomics and Bush' wars, and registered Democrats and Independents can sign up to pay off the part accrued under Clinton's policies and Obama's national stimulus for economic recovery from recession. Of course, we get to subtract the Clinton reduction in GDP% debt from our total. We're talking ownership and accountability. Fair? http://zfacts.com/p/318.html

No? Then stop whining Republicans!!! And get real! We weary of carrying your tired asses!

In other words...run like the liberal dog you are...sounds like you belong in France...

You made 3 arguments in your last post. 1) That you only want income taxes to be taxed. I explained in the post RIGHT BEFORE you sent that why this is a quid-pro-quo issue. Why should I re-address this when I've already addressed it? All you did was repeat the same line you did in the post BEFORE my response which means we've now went around in a circle on this one issue. 2) You brought up the IRS donations. I explained in the post before that there is a limited amount that you can contribute, that you cannot just write a blank check to the IRS, and that this is a red herring to the conversation about taxation and is hypocritical for people who whine that the wealthy shouldn't have to pay more while simultaneously saying that the rest of America are guilty for only paying their legally owed amount. You then responded...by giving me the link to the IRS's website asking for donations. Did that refute me? No. Did it address any of my points? No. Did it contribute to the discussion? No. That was just you ignoring me entirely and just posting a page while arrogantly assuming that I haven't read the IRS terms. 3) You brought up the fair tax. The initial post to this thread that YOU decided to join in on was about the fair tax. At the beginning I already addressed it. Did you add any new information? No. Did you further the conversation or refute any arguments I made? No. What did you do? You ignored the statement made by me entirely and then just posted a link to a page promoting the flat tax.

Why in the hell should I address your arguments Storm if you aren't going to pay attention to your opposition and you're just going to repeat the same thing over and over again? And why in the hell should I NOW respond to your arguments when you've insulted me when it wasn't called for or even relevant?

@Cliff:

You won't be leaving an estate of 1 million dollars or more so why do you care? And why are you in such a rush to have us stay at current rates? You do realize that we had the estate tax beforehand and wealthy people got along JUST FINE. Both of you are acting like the world will end if taxes go up on people worth more money.

But I do love the hypocritical juxtaposition here: in 2 posts above Storm makes the assertion that we don't tax wealth. And now Cliff is talking about his freak out over us taxing wealth....

I think I've pretty much shown that neither of the two of you take these conversations seriously and that, for me personally, is what pisses me off the most. I actually do give a damn about our debt and deficit which is why I don't regurgitate talking points from other websites and instead use my brain to come to rational conclusions. This is why I don't get upset when people confront my ideas and I don't regurgitate my ideas when challenged without evidence or without it being relevant to the conversation. I don't force people to go in circles and if I did I would completely understand why someone wouldn't want to continue the conversation with me. And most importantly of all: when I've exhausted my arguments I will stop and think and listen instead of throwing out insults and red herrings to try to divert the conversation.

#13.34 Excellent. I notice today that your blog adversary has been collapsed.

Good.

Now, somebody please tell these trolls what the meaning of a liberal is! I am tired of being called a liberal. I am tired of hearing that the president is a liberal. Far from it, in fact!

As for me, well..........Ideologically, I'm a conservative, Canadian socialist. (With Libertarian leanings on some issues). I vote Democrat.

I know.........I know..

Think for once: I vote here. That means I live here. I like their system. Period.

Why don't you get out cliff, you are the one who would use all of that system your problem is you want it to be a free handout.

Cliff,

Yeah, God forbid our tax dollars go to support universal health care. Better to support unnecessary wars and the wealthiest Americans and the profitable corporations.

Right. Great system. If I left, it wouldn't be to Canada anyway. But I can't leave so you are stuck with me. The Isle of Man will have to do without me.

I'll stay here and fight for a system that helps 98% of Americans. Even if you are one of them.

cliff stop projecting. You already shown us it is you who wants everything without having to pay for it. So go back to your retirement home and whine to the nurses how life isn't fair.

No, Lvkpride, you need to understand how government works. President Obama is not a king. Everything has to go through Congress. The president has, and does, strongly speak up not only for those still in the middle class, but for the rest of us. Obama has made it VERY clear that it is necessary to protect Social Security. But Republicans want this money. They are working hard to do to Social Security what was done to welfare. From the very start of his campaign, before he was ever elected, Barack Obama has repeatedly stated that there was nothing he could do without the strong backing of the people. Sometimes complaining isn't enough; we have to actually figure out a way to organize and, if necessary, get masses of people to the very doors of Congress to make it clear that we're tired of right-wing theft of public dollars.

DH Branski, It amazes me that people don't understand the Executive, Legislative, and Judicial branches of government! Each has a different function.

The President can't make the T-Party in congress behave or do what he wants!

I wish....

Really what makes you believe anything Obama offers is what he is really doing. Obama is playing chess you are playing checkers. If you remember Obama made the same move the last time the GOP tried to hold the budget hostage, the GOP are not going to accept that deal if they did that they would seal their fate and become an unelectable party. Remember the GOP is made up of angry old white people who live on those benefits if the GOP kill it the GOP will face a back lash just like lying Ryan faced and all of the GOP gerrymandering won't save them. Seeing as Obama can't get elected again who do you think these people will turn on. That is the corner the GOP painted themselves into, if the fiscal cliff happens they are screwed, if they try to keep the Bush tax cuts they are screwed, if they kill SS and medicare they are screwed, the GOP know this and are trying to figure out how they can wiggle out of getting the blame, so they keep stalling hoping Obama will use the 14th amendment thus avoiding the trap they put themselves in. The next 48 hours is going to be telling. Just remember every time anyone thought the GOP had Obama on the ropes Obama rope a doped them. Obama's first 4 years showed how good he was at staying 1 step ahead of the GOP. One way you can tell is how the trolls are repeating the GOP greatest hits, they too know that the GOP are screwed so time to point out a shiny object.

Medicare and Social Security are entitlements because most people get significantly more out of it than they put into it.

It is growing broke because the current working generation pays for the current retired generation. The money that that current recipients put in actually went to their grandparents. Now there are more retired people and fewer working people.

whomitmay.....Your lips to Obama's desk.

Every month I have to send back 30% of that check to the IRS.

That is because of Ronald Reagan genius. For the first time in US history he made persons receieving social security pay income taxes. That is because he, like you, assume that if you're on social security you're a lazy person who doesn't deserve the benefit. Ironically enough you attack everyone here as being unemployed and lazy yet here you are the lazy and unemployed.

And don't give me that "I've retired" or "i'm disabled" crap. You paid for your parents and now you want those who are working to pay for you. I say nuts to that! Get off your lazy butt and start paying for yourself. No social security for you!

Now please talk to me about whose a "whiny liberal."

Yes. Tell him. I'm tired of his whining.

I'm sure I'm the only one here paying income tax on SS.

Because all the money you're receiving is social security according to you. So you are a freeloader using my tax money so that you can sit around on your lazy ass all day and blog. And yet you have the audacity to project this onto other people? Yeah that's BS.

Also you got "tired of working and paying taxes?" So then you're admitting that even as worker you were lazy. My god man stop projecting: the majority of us aren't as lazy as you! Or is what you really meant to say that you wanted to be your own boss so at the age of 50 you quit your job as an employee and went to work on something that made you happy and that was how you paid your bills and it really had nothing to do with work or taxation (ya know like 99.999% of the country). Cause most sane people don't go OMG I'm paying 200$ in taxes per paycheck! Well I better just stop working then! That's because most sane people realize that they need to work to feed themselves. I'm betting you're lying about your situation just as your cognitive dissonance doesn't seem to allow for the fact that you are the lazy, stupid, no-good liberal you keep complaining about.

I am also curious: what red state are you in? You do know that every red state in the nation is running a deficit right now yeah? And said deficits are larger than every blue state in the nation except California, yeah? And that red states have the highest percentage of lazy bums like you on welfare whereas blue states have the lowest. You're just fitting out the stereotype.

Also yeah of course you paid 60$ in parking (btw that's a great deal for 3 days). That's because you don't live in DC. In your home state you pay nothing because you have a bleeping parking space.

I think you're having a hard time coming to terms with this reality and I'm trying to be as blunt about it as I can be. YOU are the person you keep insulting and accusing liberals of being.

Cliff doesn't believe in paying for what he recieves. He doesn't think HE show have to pay taxes or anything else to contribute to the benefit of this country. And he wants to blame the lazy, which he's proven to be part of, for all our problems. Shows just how out of touch he is. I know many unemployed. I know no one that's lazy. 190 people unemployed in one day because the company decided to move over seas. That plant has been in operation for over 60 years. Never a lay off even. But according to Cliff those 190 people are lazy. They loved losing their homes. They cars. Cliff is nothing more than another uninformed right wing Fox Lies hate spewing radical. He has said he hates this country.

Cliff Pfsical "Every month I get a SS check. Every month I have to send back 30% of that check to the IRS."

If you're actually doing that, it's because your retirement, investment and other income takes you past a threshold that makes PART of your SS taxable income. [Most of that check is on your OTHER income.]

Plus. most American retirees don't reach that threshold.

I've never heard of someone writing a monthly check...most people either file estimated taxes every quarter, or wait until the end of the year and do the formula to see if there's a penalty they have to pay for underpayment of the estimated taxes, then cut that check.

You should talk to your accountant.

----------------------

PS

Info covering 2012

You can do the following quick computation to determine whether some of your benefits may be taxable:

• First, add one-half of the total Social Security benefits you received to all your other income, including any tax-exempt interest and other exclusions from income.
• Then, compare this total to the base amount for your filing status. If the total is more than your base amount, some of your benefits may be taxable.

The 2011 base amounts are:

• $32,000 for married couples filing jointly.
• $25,000 for single, head of household, qualifying widow/widower with a dependent child, or married individuals filing separately who did not live with their spouse at any time during the year.
• $0 for married persons filing separately who lived together during the year.
• http://www.irs.gov/uac/Seven-Tips-to-Help-You-Determine-if-Your-Social-Security-Benefits-are-Taxable

Wait cliff was just bragging in a topic a few days back that he was a rich 401k holder that employed 160+ people in his business. So was cliff lying then or is he lying now?

Red States typically receive more in federal dollars than their residents pay in federal taxes.

Blue states have higher state taxes because they actually pay for their own stuff plus support the red states.

You need to go to the SS site and read up on SS. Current workers are not paying for todays retirees, the employee gets his share taken from each pay check, the employer pays his share which then go into treasury bonds, you know those bonds republicans call useless but every country in the world tries to get their hands on, which in turn yields interest on the employee/employers contributions. Another fact left out is the number of people who either die before they retire or within 5 years of retiring. What the GOP has been doing is spinning the numbers to create a crisis that may or may not happen 15,20 or 30 years from now. What they do is predict the future using todays unemployment, retirees, disabled numbers, meaning that if in 30 years no one dies and the number of unemployed stay at where they were when they created these numbers SS would be broke. The problem is since Obama has been in office the number of unemployed dropped so the GOP doom and gloom predictions are already farther away then they were when they put the doom and gloom report out. Your first clue is how the year that the SS would go broke differs from person to person, 1 claims 15 years another 20 and so on. Oh I also forgot to add that treasury bonds pay outs remain the same as well. SS numbers change constantly which makes it impossible to predict how much money SS will have in any given year, the GOP have been playing this SS game since the day SS was signed into law. The only time SS knows for sure how much it has is based on yearly payments that year has brought in, the rest of these numbers are speculations and should be taken with a grain of salt.

The Cliff GOP always have 100 fake stories , why is that? I have yet to meet a dem who just tells melt down lies one after another , yet 98% of the gop you see on line , are just dishing it up mindlessly , they can NEVER keep their stories straight

Its like their belief that an AR-15 is needed to keep back the hoards of criminals, I think they mixed up criminals with their cowboy and Indian movies.

Yet you can't even keep your lies simple which causes you to contradict yourself in every post you make.

BAM!!

Very good job, Whom!!!

Keep kicking troll ass!!!!

LOL!!!

That's interesting considering that your workforce would have nothing to do with the value of their shares.

cliff another lie from you really you keep pretending that you are Mitt Romney, you lie just as badly as he lies. How do we know your lying rather simple, your life story changes post by post. Here is a clue cliff no one takes your word even if you post the sun rises in the east and sets in the west. One fact we know is clear conservatives hate the middle class that is why they keep pretending they are the 2%, like you claim.

Yeah sure, KKKliff,

You say you are alot of things on this site when trying to prove your right wing ignorant troll arguments.

And again, you show your ignorance as well as the fact that you lie to try to prove your ignorant right wing talking points.

And your final rant to larry is just a troll becoming unhinged.

Which is really quite amusing to watch.

Because of the republicans playing games with the debt ceiling really cliff stop whining you are getting your government handout. Treasury bonds were lowered that doesn't mean they are worthless cliff, the only thing worthless is your whines that you aren't getting a bigger government handout and you have to pay taxes on your handout because the guy you adore, Ronnie putrid Reagan said it was your duty as a citizen to pay taxes on your government handout.

Really cliff funny how it is your side that keeps trying to gut the SS program so they can give it away to your good friends on Wall street that wouldn't even let you eat the scraps out of their garbage cans. Really cliff you righties never learn you just whine about the sky falling.

Lie cliff lie. Seems that is all you know how to do cliff. Now be a good little guy and get off moms computer.

The only one who should be embarrassed cliff is you. Since you won't go away I will do what I do with whiny kids, I ignore them.

Re: #15.1

Hmmmmmm.......

You apparently don't pay attention.

MSNBC has terrific graphs - based on real data.

Where do you get your information from? Do you ever see graphs there?

Please provide links. I would be interested in seeing them.

maphi, People like Cliff see what they want to see, and what Fox wants them to know. Reality does not play a role in their world.

You can't believe how many people we feed and clothe here. Our church is really kept busy.

Re: #15.4

Ah - I see.

Then you apparently don't have them open when watching MSNBC.

Do you have an opinion about the charts in the link that Carole provided in #15?

...Cliff that wasn't a portfolio chart. Did you even read it or attempt to understand it?

It's showing the amount of income versus employment. You aren't employed so you aren't able to do a comparison there- you are a lazy bum on social security (your words, not mine). There isn't a portfolio comparison. Sheesh.

Another reason to not pay attention to Cliff. He wants to brag about how wealthy he is. BS. The only thing Cliff, as most repubs love is MONEY. ME, ME ,ME. Self-centered, greedy and uninformed.

I keep this one bookmarked for whenever a discussion gets started about cutting taxes for the rich so they can create more jobs. NOT!

Your ability to overlook the obvious is not surprising. If the Koch bros. shut down their businesses tomorrow 67-80,000 people will be out of work. So yes, rich people create jobs.

As for creating more jobs, that requires more profit, which seems to really upset the left. Oh well, the Chinese seem to be doing just fine with the extra American business.

And as for the chart... Heh.

And your ability to overlook the obvious is not surprising. The federal government creates millions of jobs as does the state and local governments. So it would appear as if your crotch brother analogy is yet another red herring argument.

And the rich also need federal monies to exist, to keep operating. That money is why they are so successful. Those crotch brothers actually depend on federal funding for where they are today and for their continued wealth.

And your job creation argument is just plain bull@!$%#.

Well shooter believes WWII ended the depression and FDR had nothing to do with ending the depression. Shooters bubble doesn't allow him to accept that the depression lasted longer because FDR gave a small tax cut to the wealthy in 36 which set back the recovery. Even funnier is shooter is clueless about WWII causing rationing, he knows nothing about victory gardens, scrap metal drives, rubber drives or the AB gas stickers people had to display in their windshields that told gas stations just how many gallons of gas the driver could put into his gas tank. Shooter believes WWII was like the wars of the present where only service members and their families suffer the hardships of war. Shooter also don't grasp that the oil companies were forced to give oil to the war effort unlike today oil was not on the world market so government had more control of the countries oil supplies.

So from 2006 - 2010 blame Bush?

just saying...

stormfront's post is just ignorant.

just saying....

That is par to normal for re reg. Why he believes he needs an AR-15 to protect him from the hoards of criminals hiding in the bushes around the place he dwells, because everyone knows criminals travel in hoards.

#19,

Exactly!

Death threats again re reg? Really would have thought you learned your lesson.

I didnt threaten you at all...I was just suggesting that you might enjoy seeing seeing the weapons I have...

just saying...

Whom. Have forgotten that the right choose not to learn? They love the past. Thy are incabable of learning. They prefer to let history repeat it's self. Or worse.

Storm, keep your damn fantasies of violence against fellow Americans to yourself, in your dark little hole. That twisted @!$%# carries no value in this country.

Lock...you are welcome to come by and check them out as well. We can go to the local range and fire off a few rounds if you want.

just saying...

I do not recreate or practice with the questionably incompetent. Safety first. I suggest you review your firearms handbook, or complete training again, for your own good, as well as others.

Whom...my 38 special and 12 gauge pump shotgun do an adequate job of keeping me protected. Why dont you come by and find out for yourself?

Hmmmm I don't see where you invited me to come check them out, what I do see is you say your guns keep you protected then you tell me to come by and find out for myself how you protect yourself, no that was not an invite to look at your guns, what it is actually is saying to me is come on over and I will shoot you, or a death threat. Just because you put just saying means nothing. I will leave it to the mods on weather you made a death threat or not, at the very least you implied a death threat.

I was simply inviting you over to have a cup of coffee with me and watch how I use them to protect myself if someone was to break in while you were here. My sincerest apologies if my intent was not clearly stated. I would never wish harm upon any of my fellow bloggers...

just saying..

Why are the coward gop only tuff on the internet ? The fat losers can not get laid , so they have to come on here and whine to try and get any kind of attention , go get a life so you do not sound and look so pitiful on here

Pantango, stormfront and trolls like him post here because they are fat losers and cowards. That's all they can do, because they are limp d*cked and powerless in the real world.

So they create new socks, come on this site and post bull@!$%# because they are ignorant cowards.

Just sayin...

Donna...

Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery...

Thank you...

Just saying...

Stormfront,

Or maybe imitation serves as a mirror that reflects back to that person -YOU, for example- just how ignorant or just plain stupid that they-meaning YOU- are.

OR....

Yes, imitation could be the sincerest form of flattery....

And you try hard to resemble those on this thread that are informed...but you fail at that. Miserably.

So you imitate the trolls on this site. Well.

And I call you out for being such a troll....

You're welcome...

Just saying....

Speaking of being informed...have you ever actually contributed to any discussion on this or any other board? Or are you just paid to come in and attack others?

just saying...

In other words...run like the liberal dog you are...sounds like you belong in France...

Sorry stormfront, but you lose. You try to appear like the people on this thread, but eventually your true horrible troll self shines through. And you out yourself.

Speaking of being informed...have you ever actually contributed to any discussion on this or any other board? Or are you just paid to come in and attack others?

Perhaps you should ask yourself the same question, hypocrite troll!

LOL!!!!

Just saying.....

Thank you for giving me the biggest compliment possible...that I am not like the other people on this board...if I ever became a misinformed lemming like you and the others I would really be worried.

You might not agree with what I say, but at least I have comments about the issues instead of simply attacking others which seems to be your forte.

just saying...

Funny that you would say that I complimented you, when in reality I called you out for attempting to be like the people on this thread, which you are not.

And now your comment:

...became a misinformed lemming like you and the others I would really be worried.

further shows you to be the troll on the level of shooter and kkkliff, which is an even more fabulous statement that further proves my point about you.

You might not agree with what I say, but at least I have comments about the issues instead of simply attacking others which seems to be your forte.

And your comment #1:

In other words...run like the liberal dog you are...sounds like you belong in France...

And your comment #2:

became a misinformed lemming like you and the others I would really be worried.

shows you to be a hypocrite and a troll, and in total denial about it. Which is really quite amusing.

I don't care about you or what you have to say, because trolls like you mean nothing to me and should actually be pitied. I call you out for what you are and what you have outed yourself to be: an ignorant troll with an over inflated ego.

Just saying....

For someone who doesnt care about what I have to say, you sure seem to be following me around to all of my posts and making some type of comment.

just saying...

For someone who doesnt care about what I have to say, you sure seem to be following me around to all of my posts and making some type of comment.

LOL!! There goes that over inflated troll ego again!

I comment to whomever I want and as many times as I want. And you can't do a thing about it.

Little troll has been exposed and by its own admission too and is now having a tantrum!

Troll meltdown! Quick! Someone call the WAAAMBULANCE!!!!

Just saying.....

Is that another example of you not caring about what I said?

just saying....

No. Not really.

And not that you want the real answer to your question-but I will answer your question:

Actually stormfront, I am not responding to you. It is not about you. Never was. But the sad and pathetic thing is: you really do think this thread is about you. But it is not. I know that you and your idiotic inflated ego doesn't want to accept that fact, but it is.

No, I just call out trolls for what they are on this site: ignorant right wing trolls. And you are but one of them.

But you will continue to post bull@!$%#, because you are mad and butt sore that your amusing attempt at appearing to be "moderate" is lame and in reality you are and have exposed yourself for, an extreme right wing troll.

So you, who are nothing but a troll and a coward hiding behind a screen name, is reduced to posting ignorant anonymous posts on this site.

Just saying....

high

You do realize, don't you, that any possible deal agreed to in the Senate will have to pass the House? Without any changes? Which is exactly what Speaker Boehner wants, that way he can blame the Senate for legislation that, according to the Constitution, should originate in the House.

Republicans, once again to the rear!

That is why most of this appears to be lip service for the msm , who will try and blame dems no matter what the out come , there is ZERO reason for senate dems to come up with anything .......If they did , the gop and msm can blame them for yet another gop fail , as you r pointing out

It still iritates the crap out of me any way , usually I can blow this stuff off , the specter of obama and the dems caving is too entrenched in my mind , time for a political time out after this

They replayed obama laying it down a few weeks ago at a press conference

THE ONLY MANDATE I HAVE TO HELP THE MIDDLE CLASS GET A HEAD , ALONG WITH THOSE TRYING TO MAKE IT TO THE MIDDLE CLASS , PERIOD

And he said it to the reporters like JFK laying it on the USSR in the Cuban crisis , I must keep the faith