To understand why constructive negotiations between the parties have proven to be so very difficult, look no further than this message from one of the Republican Party's purported "rising stars."
It's possible, of course, that Sen. Marco Rubio (R-Fla.) is badly confused -- public policy is generally not his strong suit -- and doesn't realize his rhetoric isn't true. Or maybe he does realize he's misleading the public and doesn't care.
Either way, the far-right Floridian has summarized a larger problem in just 135 characters. Rubio wants Americans to believe Republicans <i>didn't</i> push for chained CPI -- which would reduce Social Security benefits -- as part of the ongoing fiscal talks. We know this isn't even close to being true -- indeed, by yesterday afternoon, GOP senators had agreed to drop this demand that they'd fought for earlier in the day.
Paul Krugman added that Rubio's bizarre falsehood is a reminder why it's "crazy" to think Republicans would ever agree to a sensible Grand Bargain: "You can't make big deals with a totally untrustworthy negotiating partner."
Also note what this tells us about the efforts to make bipartisan changes to entitlements. As Ezra Klein explained, "Today's Republican Party thinks the key problem America faces is out-of-control entitlement spending. But cutting entitlement spending is unpopular and the GOP's coalition relies heavily on seniors. And so they don't want to propose entitlement cuts. If possible, they'd even like to attack President Obama for proposing entitlement cuts. But they also want to see entitlements cut and will refuse to solve the fiscal cliff or raise the debt ceiling unless there are entitlement cuts."
There's a reason the parties have struggled badly to find consensus, and I'll give you a hint: it's not because Democrats are unwilling to make concessions.
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The democrats have made too many concessions. No deal is better than a bad deal. The republicans have the democrats negotiating with themselves. Stand up democrats.
Leave military spending aloooooooooooooooone!
Why?
http://thinkprogress.org/economy/2012/12/30/1379681/lindsay-graham-i-will-destroy-americas-solvency-unless-the-social-security-retirement-age-is-raised/?mobile=nc
Lindsay Graham: "I will destroy America's solvency unless the Social Security retirement age is raised."
How do you "negotiate" with people who are willing to destroy this country if they don't get their way?
Then you have those that will outright lie to get their way - how does that NOT destroy this country also?
The Republicans may win their pyrrhic victory - but what will they leave for their children and grandchildren? Do they even care?
"Cuts for thee, but not for me."
Ah, OAR -- No, they don't care. As long as they can preserve their 'well-deserved'
lootedwealth from estate taxes and keep themselves safe in their gated communities, their private-schooled kids should be just fine. (cf. Chris Hayes' Twilight of the Elites)The 1% really don't consider themselves to be in the same boat as the rest of us. The laws of nature and physics don't apply to them; economics is what they say it is; they are citizens of the world, not of America.
Once I accepted that, understanding the idiocy that they and their media spout became much easier. They really don't see realities they don't like. And as long as they're wealthy and have friends in high places (e.g., Congress, too many state legislatures), things will go just the way they want them to.
Batten down the hatches, friends. It's going to get even uglier.
Helena, you are so right!!!
I'm reading "Whole Stole the American Dream" by Hendrick Smith right now and he says the same things that Stiglitz, Lofgren, Dionne, Klugman, Reich, Acemoglu and SO MANY OTHERS have been saying: Somehow in the last 40 years, the extremely selfish rich have taken over America and not for America's benefit. They have destroyed our economy, they have destroyed our middle class, and now they are destroying our government.
Isn't that all this "fiscal cliff" is about - the extreme rich keeping themselves from paying a dime more in taxes - the rest of us be damned?
For crying out loud. C'mon, man. Is anybody dumb enough at this late hour not to see through how these asswholes act?
Of course he's lying through his teeth and of course he doesn't give a@!$%#. It's transparently intentional. And we know he's lying because of the reasons Steve mentioned.
Rubio learned that R-money did not suffer from anyone in the MSM calling him out when he lied ~ until AFTER the election when people finally admitted that they had possibly seen Steve's expanded mendacity lists. Rubio is just starting early, but sticking with the same strategy. Another list for Steve to track?
Instead of Mitt's Mendacity, Steve could call it "Rubio's Ruses."
Good folks -- Remember that roughly 47% of Americans voted for Mittens and Lyin' Ryan. As long as barely half the electorate gives a hoot about reality (and is willing to sacrifice to save the anti-intellectual 47%), precious little will happen.
That's my nightmare: that almost half my fellow citizens see comments like Rubio's and nod along firmly.
too many in GOP want to negotiate only in the realm of lower taxes and spending cuts. this is not a compromise so off the cliff we go. they will take blame and start this all over for debt ceiling. they put the lame in lame duck.
RM, My excuse for fiscal mess...hey, I'm snowed in...New England...hey, it's winter! But I do have a vote....not a solution, a vote....for Mitch McConnell dance partner: Bring back, oh, bring back.....That "Dancing With The Stars" super phenom, whip-crackin', super-spin meister Tom Delay...without delay... If they can get past who will lead, we may have something. Justice delayed is, well, you get it. Maybe, maybe...just sayin'.
Most Americans don't understand the process but they'll remember that the republicans are the ones that couldn't agree to raise taxes on the rich and they wanted to make life more difficult for everybody else. That's what's important and that's what they'll remember.
Rubio is lying through his teeth and people in Florida will remember that too!
@once a republican, I think we can erase all doubt on caring, no they do not care. Further, they have taken note of how well outright lying, followed by doubling down on said lie, see campaign, Mitt Romney, as well as Rubio's tweeted, easily disproved lie. It took the last whopper on jobs from Detroit to Mexico to finally wake up the national press. I believe it was the outrage by the local Ohio papers and press that led that parade. This is is new GOP, worse than the old GOP amazingly, who use to take down the blatant lies when caught, they never apologized but would change the subject. Now, just lie, when caught, continue to lie, there is no price to pay. Not only that, the lies often get traction and become "fact" and not only on Fox. When you erase any need for morals or honesty, it seems the sky is the limit.
Btw, the only way I have been able to get a comment on Maddow blog is by using the XHTML mode which turns my comment yellow but at least it is accepted. In easy mode, comment does not enter. Any ideas? It's a given, I'm clueless.
"When you erase any need for morals or honesty, it seems the sky is the limit."
Md born, that about sums it up for me. Well said.
Md,
If you are on a Mac, clear your cache. If you are on a PC, get rid of your cookies. That happens to me sometimes, but when I clear my cache, the problem resolves!
Hi, MD born -- (from another MD-born)
The yellow box is just to remind you that *you* were the one who submitted those comments. 'Far as I can tell, the yellow persists if you're logged into the site. It does help if you return to view others' comments to your post.
Even if you find yourself stuck in xhtml mode, plain text will emerge just as you typed it, so no real harm.
Onward!
Here's the way Sam Spade and Philip Marlowe would think of this --
Republicans want to kill the New Deal and Great Society programs, but they don't want to be leave their fingerprints on the murder weapon and they'll lie about where they were to give themselves an alibi.
but unfortunately someone saw that big black sedan speeding away from the crime scene
A normal thief will take what is available. A corporate thief will gouge his customers and its employees and call it good business. A teabagger will rob an entire nation and tell you it is good for you and blame others when it does not work.
"You can't make big deals with a totally untrustworthy negotiating partner"
should be
"You can't make big deals with liars"
I had mourning Joe on for a while this am and there was Coburn and assorted Republicans who were pissing and moaning about how Obama is not giving them what they want.
You lost the election , it is not our job to concede to you . You have no cards to play.
Off the cliff , then we'll discuss how you will come around to make US happy.
The larger issue here is that despite the rhetoric from Grover Norquist to the contrary, most Republicans like programs such as Medicare, Social Security, and other programs that benefit them. Most Republicans, despite their anti-government ideology want good roads, good public schools, police, and fire protection. Most Republicans will not cut military bases or defense programs that provide jobs in their home districts either. So the GOP wants tax cuts for the wealthy to continue on one hand while still enjoying those government programs in their home districts.
Even most Tea Party Republicans want Medicare and Social Security for constituents in their home districts. These huge contradictions make the GOP an unstable partner to negotiate with for Democrats. Trying to have a rational discussion with a radical and irrational party is like trying to make a pig fly. Gravity always pulls you down to mother earth. Today, the GOP/Tea Party is crash landing because trillion dollar budget deficits can not be addressed without substantial levels of revenue increases and substantial defense cuts. Domestic programs have already cut to the tune of over one trillion dollars over ten years during the fiscal cliff fiasco in 2011. The irrational GOP has to get over its anti-government and anti-tax rhetoric or else the entitlement programs, the large military programs, and other government programs that disproportionately benefit their constituents in red states will be substantially cut. In the real world, pigs can not fly even for the corporate swine herders in the GOP. Rational people, like President Obama can not have rational discussions about real world budgets with irrational radical Republicans.
You've hit on the essential problem.
In the abstract, people say they want smaller government and lower taxes.
In the specific, when explained, people like what government does for them.
These two impulses are at odds with one another. We've been wrestling with them since Reagan's time. We're going to be wrestling with them for some time to come.
I think it was David Frum who said that the decision facing us is this -- Either we pay the bill of the last thirty years now with slightly higher taxes (on everyone, not just the over 250k crowd), or we pay a much higher bill a few years down the road with much higher taxes and inflation.
The GOP's entire game is to throw mud on the Democrats for doing something to entitlements so they won't be blamed for any cuts? Do they think people are THAT stupid? And didn't Romney / Ryan try that one in the last election and fail miserably?
Screw 'em. Raul Labrador called Dems 'burglers' yesterday. ARE YOU KIDDING ME? If Congress wants to WORK ON THE ECONOMY then do it and leave SS alone for now. It does NOT add to or subtract to the deficit. WORK on what we need done NOW (you should have been doing this for the last 500+ days) and then you can play games on SS later. But RIGHT NOW you have people that depend on getting this (close to) right.
I saw that BURGLAR comment , why are the gop allowed to lie on such outrageous levels?
And on a news break I just saw , the oklahoma gop rep said
"obama is the worst tax and spend POTUS ever , and that is the problem "
As long as we have a corporate media giving these liars cover , america will not move out of this dysfunction , as is being pointed out , you can not reach an agreement with people whose arguments are divorced from reality
How do you even start talks on fixing the budget , when the gop claim ss is the problem with the budget, when it is not ?
I don't understand why Obama has to negotiate at all. Democrats won the election, Republicans lost, to the victor goes the spoils. Republicans have been pushing for this disaster for a long time, and it all boils down to the "black guy" getting elected. They just can't get rid of their racism, and are willing to destroy the economy just to make the President look bad. The Tea Party operates more like the KKK every day, and they are proud of it.
The Tea Party illustrates the fact that getting elected does not equate to being able to govern.
How pathetic that the "rising star" on the right is such a lightweight man and heavyweight liar. Rubio is so fake it's astounding.
LDude, Hmmm...based on your description of Rubio it would seem he fits in nicely with all the Repubs and Dems in Congress. Ooops, I forgot that you believe all Dems are brilliant & honest folks. Unbelievable.
Headline yesterday was that Rubio was polishing up his lies. Must be he slipped. Again.
L&P: I am not a shy type, I speak my mind right upfront. Putting words into others mouths is low, even by internet comment board standards (very low). It is nice to see that you agree about Rubio being so truth-challenged. If you would like to compare the honesty of Republicans versus Democrats I am afraid you will be on the short end...
LDude, it amazes me how any person can claim that their political party is without frequent error or without liars. That was the point of my post to you. If you want to try to argue which party lies less frequently than the other party, then I think it is a worthless exercise. Politicians lie and/or distort the truth and because of that we all suffer to some degree. Yes, we have the best political system in the world even with all of its warts and moles. I simply ask that you dig deeper in looking at the alleged "facts" put forth by both parties. They work for us and any lie or distortion of truth should allow us to hold them accountable. And because the media is so in bed with the liberal politicians, it worries me that we no longer have a press that holds BOTH sides accountable.
L&P: I never claimed anything like you say I did, so spare us the crocodile tears. You folks at the bottom of the truth and honesty ladder love company, so you try to drag us down there. Won't work.
The GOP is incoherent because they have purposly forgotten how to compromise.
These Zealots are exactly what Lincoln was talking about in his Cooper Union speech:
Rule or Ruin
That is the Republican strategy.
Lilliputians Could Have Even Smaller Lilliputians Called Lindsaygrahamians.
http://thinkprogress.org/economy/2012/12/30/1379681/lindsay-graham-i-will-destroy-americas-solvency-unless-the-social-security-retirement-age-is-raised
Lindsay Graham: I Will Destroy America’s Solvency Unless The Social Security Retirement Age Is Raised
It is one thing to keep Gulliver tied in knots, but quite another to try that the larger Brobdingnag.
Lindsay Graham grows smaller and smaller every day.
We do have an entitlement problem. The entitlements Congress gets, their salary, automatic raises every year, perks, pensions and benefits for working an average of less than two days a week per year on our tax dollar. How about they put THEIR entitlements on the chopping block? They sure as hell don't earn them.
I think they should be declared part-time workers and have their pay and benefits cut appropriately.
Entitlements are Big Oil subsidies, tax loop holes for the wealthy, defence contracting selling weapons to our government that the Pentagon does not want.
Entitlements are not the Social services and insurance that I have paid for the last 45 years. Don't tell me I am a mooch because I want what I paid for.
The benefits for Congress are completely irrelevant and a distraction to the problem: The Rich have turn the US Government into their cash cow and they resent any money that does not go to the what they consider the true Owners of America-The Rich
Entitlements ARE all the perks and benefits Congress gets for not working. That should not be a distraction because they ARE relevant when they do nothing to earn them. Every single time they throw out SS or Medicare, THEIR entitlements should be on the chopping block. This crap of them getting automatic 3% raises every year is BS just for starters.
The subsidies for big oil and the big agriculture business are welfare, not entitlements. Welfare they don't need when they pay little to nothing in taxes.
And I'm not calling anyone a mooch so don't put words in my mouth because I've paid into the same thing since I began working at sixteen. Well over 45 years ago. I'm "entitled" to those benefits as much as I'm "entitled" to the money I put in my bank account.
I've written letters to my reps asking them why SS is always on the chopping block when it has nothing to do with the debt, yet THEIR entitlements never are. I don't expect I'll ever get an answer because they figure like you do, it's irrelevant what THEY fleece from us.
You are tilting at windmills. We should focus on issues that matter. If we completely strip Congress of every single perk and privilege,so what?
They won't give a tinker's damn, most of them are multi-millionaires. Any more than the Koch brothers care about their Social Security. In fact it is the rich who want to gut all social benefits. They don't need public schools or public heath care, they simply buy the best.
Let us work on important structural issues that could really make a difference, like getting the money out of politics-that would make a huge difference.
I consider those congressional perks a red herring. That is what is wrong with the left, we all focus on our own pet project or peeve. We should work together and define the best bang for our political buck.
You are right, they don't give a tinker's damn anymore than they give a tinker's damn on issues that matter. Getting the money out of politics is on the table? Of course not. And it's not going to be on the table thanks to the teapub SCOTUS. The only things on the table are the things that matter to the average American person that is trying to exist and tax breaks for the uber rich.
Social Security for me is not a pet project or peeve. It's what I have to live on for what little time is left in my life. They get their "red herring" perks from the tax dollars I've paid all my life and they want to take away the Social Security I've paid into all my life. I have problems making ends meet now.
They throw a scrap of a 1.7% increase for SS while they get a 3% increase. Big deal is right. The scrap from SS is already eaten up by the Medicare Part D and/or it causes a subtraction from food stamps. Meanwhile, everything else has risen in price by a hell of a lot more than 1.7%.
They are trying to claim they have to cut into Social Security because of debt, let's put their "entitlements" on the table for the same reason. It's a pet peeve for a lot of us that are just trying to exist with a roof over our head, but I know it doesn't matter and I'm only tilting at windmills.
Rubio is getting a headstart on lying so he will be ready for the 2016 presidential primaries.