I agree!

No thanks. Let the minority party remain the minority party. Intransigent behavior is rarely reigned in by intransigent behavior. If Bernie Sanders is a yea, count me as one too.

If I were a Democratic House member I wouldn't vote for this mess at all. Just more concessions to the party that lost the election, AND setting up the debt ceiling debate in two months to advantage the Repubs again so Obama can get down on his knees, again. That's when the real screwing of the middle class will happen. This time Obama has given it all away in advance.

Oh, BTW Lebowsky Dude, how's that "guaranteed" inclusion of the debt ceiling in this deal working out for you?

Memosley: Who cares about "me"? What a silly and non-germaine line. The progressives at Maddowblog are sounding like Brietbarts this morning, and that is a profound disappointment. As far as the debt ceiling goes, when the Republicans suggest cuts, the POTUS hops on Air Force One and barnstorms them to oblivion with the help of the business community.

The real disappointment is you Lebowsky. It's people like you that have lead to the constant erosion since 1980 of our country because of your belief that there is never a time to take a stand.

Disgusted: Yeah buddy, it's on "me". All politics is personal, right? So you decide that you want to come to Maddowblog and act like a troll calling people names, but somehow this all boils down to rational people wanting a rational discussion being the problem... I suggest Thehill.com or Breitbart.com, both of those comment boards are cesspools of insults and personal nonsense. Your posts of today will fit right in.

Yeah, you're rational. You have vision and understanding about as penetrating as knowledge of a couple of weeks of history allows. You're a cheeseball mediocrity that's the problem with Democrats. You can't see not only the forest; you can't even see the trees.

Disgusted: Yes, I am rational on these boards, I don't name call, and exactly zero of your childish posts will change that. I have children already, and I observe that they also resort to name calling. History is something I have been interested in for all my life, it is a part of me. It's also a part of you, you will wake up tomorrow morning and live with the fact that you have brazenly insulted fellow Maddowblog commenters with gusto and incoherance. Rational folks will always know what ticks inside of you, and the fact that you don't respect the opinions of others. Call me whatever you like, it won't change history...

Lebowsky . . . The flaw in your "we need to have rational debate" argument is that you can't have rational debate with irrational people. That's what the Republicans are. The goals are asymmetrical. Democrats are trying to solve problems. Republicans aren't interested in solving those problems. They don’t give a rip about “the people”—other than the rich ones.

Their goals are to 1) put more money in the pockets of the already wealthy (read, their donors), and 2) eliminate the Democratic Party. Until both parties have at least some interest in attaining the same goal, albeit by different means, there can't be a meaningful debate over issues like the budget, the (nonexistent) "fiscal cliff" or the debt ceiling.

MPguy: I am only referring to a "rational debate" on these comment boards, not at all about dealing with modern Republicans. Some people on these boards, one in particular, have decided name calling and hissy fits are OK. They are not OK in any way, they lower the bar and make Maddowblog look like the other cesspools of insult on the web. I fully respect anyone who disagrees with the deal, as long as they don't name call and act like children.

I peg the Aplogistas, like Lebowsky, as a prime reason the middle class has eroded so badly over the last 40 years.

Apologistas consistently make excuses for Obama's flaccid response to Republican opposition.

Steve Benen is an Apologista in the very headline of this post. The Deal absolutely did not "sail through" the Senate.

This from TPM:

"Vice President Joe Biden had to repeatedly reassure frustrated members of his own party Monday night that President Obama and Democratic leaders will not negotiate with the GOP to raise the debt ceiling in February or March."

Does that sound like sailing through? But sailing through is going to be something you will hear over and over from the Apologistas. "Only 8 Senators voted against it!" will be another popular refrain. "Bernie Saunders voted for it" will make the playlist too.

Don't believe them. We are being set up for the Big Cave in two months.

Dave Fave: LOL So you think you know me well enough to blame the decline of the middle class squarely on me, thats rich. That is the exact kind of baloney we rarely see here at Maddowblog, most folks here don't try to peg people that way, pidgeonhole them, because it's rude and ignorant. That kind of power does intrigue me Dave, perhaps it also comes with other powers I might enjoy, since taking down the middle class gets tiring. Do I also get the secret key to understanding women? Do I get special parking?

That's easy. Because you're a Democrat. That's what Democrats do. It comes free with the spine removal kit. (Not you personally, you understand. Democrats that actually have a say.)

I guess we could have done worse, DWIA. I can't believe he did not insist on the ceiling of $250,000.00, but I had heard it would be $4000,000.00 and I assume he had his reasons, but I am not terribly thrilled with what he conceded on.

Well, it's like my husband said last night, "Two wings of the same vulture." I guess I will always side with the Democratic side of the vulture as its other wing is too horrid to think about. Truth it, though, they're all bought and paid for.

By the rich. That pretty much explains it for me.

Now to change my avatar. I am burned out on the fiscal cliff. I found a pretty map of my favourite place in the world. It's colourful so I'll try that until I find a good Winter picture. I have a new camera I am experimenting with. (Give me a year.)

I believe I have too many zeros in that $400,000.00.

Always the pessimist...LOL

Well, I'll go hug the cat...then I'll feel better. Has the outhouse voted yet?

The 400K cap hits the salaried hoi poli in the top 5%. The real money is for those who could give a crap about wages, because they are puny compared to their returns from renting their money.

Huge profits are made by the 1% not in wages, but capital gains.

So where is the indignation about the giveaway to the 1 percenters who do nothing more productive than rent their money? People are focusing on the 400K, but the capital gains giveaway is far more obscene.

We really really need Ezra to do a segment showing how much income going to the 1% is capital gains, and how much was given away by reducing capital gains from 39% to 20%, and the concessions on the estate taxes.

If elections have consequences, then let us have the balls to exact them. There is huge income inequality in the US, and giveaways like this is why the gap is accelerating, not reversing.

#2.4,

Yeah, John, those two concessions hurt the most. Well, I am at a loss to know what to say or do. It's sort of like Groundhog Day, isn't it. SSDD.

They all drink from the same well, John. You know that.

It could have been worse.

Uh Huh.....Think:President ROMNEY!

India. Go hug the cat, you'll feel better. We haven't seen the worst yet. 3 months it will get very hot and deep. We're going down unless Obama gets a spine, which I doubt he'll ever do.

Hey Larry, I hugged him so much last night that he's hiding from me. I never trusted Obama to stand firm, but to let so much go over to their court was a real blow. Like I told John Messerly, They all drink from the same well down there in DC. They are all bought and paid for by the ACTUAL people who run this country.

He won't grow a spine. If he could have, he'd already have one. What a shame. We're in for quite a ride.

Don't get too attached to the 21st Century, folks. It's backwards we go............

In case you haven't gotten enough of Lock Up today, this just in from the Dept. of Corrections:

I repeated something I either misheard or was mispoken last night on MSNBC. Dividends are cut from a top rate of 39.6% to 20%. Capital gains may be cut from 25% to 20%.

Regarding dividends, prior to the Bush cuts, they were counted as regular income. The new agreement keeps them at 20%.

Regarding capital gains, I am uncertain. Ezra pointed out the effective rate would actually be about 25% due to some Obamacare and exclusions of cap gains deductions described by Ezra here. I haven't read anything yet that indicates if the 20% cap does or does not include these factors. If it does then the Dem Leadership gave away 5% in Capital Gains taxes.

You have aligned yourself with Marco Rubio and Jim DeMint, and you are essentially denouncing real good and honest Senators like Bernie Sanders. Of course that is your full right, but understand the majority of Americans want this in the rear view mirror. The POTUS has promised to ignore the debt ceiling hostage taking by bully pulpiting the stuffing out of the Republicans, so we will crtainly see if they are foolish enough to try that.

Lebowsky,

You think TC is aligned with Marco Rubio and Jim DeMint? What are you smoking?

Reread his comments...

There's no reason to continue blaming Republicans. Democrats have now just consigned themselves to be the most irresolute, spineless, irresponsible, cowardly and ultimately damaging political actors against us. They're as much the enemy as Republicans. They will give Republicans everything they want. It'll just be gradually and not all at once.

The deal is the deal. If you are against the deal, you are with Rubio, a no vote, and DeMint, a no-show. It's usually the right wing who abhor compromises and deals, but now we can see that progressive people also are against moving forward.

I'm every bit with Rubio and DeMint. I wish they could scuttle it. I was cheering for them to scuttle it. I wish they'd have filibustered. But McConnell wasn't going to let it be filibustered. McConnell know what a complete victory this is for Republicans. Anybody with a brain understands that.

Article about southern obstructionism from a historical perspective:
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2013/01/01/on-the-fiscal-cliff-obama-does-what-he-can-against-200-years-of-bad-faith.html

There was only one thing for him to do: stand up to the hostage-takers and say no.

The lopsided vote gives cover for Boehner to allow the bill on the floor with minimal if any ammendments. Even if he is gutless, there is enough cover for enough GOP centrists to sign a discharge petition forcing a house vote bypassing Boehner.

So will this be the prototype for legislating with a dysfunctional House? Achieve lopsided votes in the Senate then bring it to the floor of the House with a DP?

The problem is that a measure must be held in committee for 30 days before a DP can take effect.

I doubt the markets will sit on their hands that long.

Complete Republican victory. All you need to do is look at the Senate vote. There was no way Republicans were going to filibuster or vote against when Democrats were willing to give them their greatest victory in 30+ years.

And there's no way Boehner will do anything to keep this from passing. Republicans want this to pass. And they should. This is their greatest victory. Bar none. Given to them by Barack Obama.

John Mess: I think any amendments will kill the deal, and Boehner knows that.

wlstarn:

Thanks much for promoting the Tomasky article at the Daily Beast. He is making points similar to what I have, and he makes some pretty strong points about what Obama has in terms of "all the cards" if the deal fails. As they say "food for thought" (and particularly so for Disgusted, with whose pissed-offness I agree, and whose predictions of the future I agree with - though I am not so sure of the solution).

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2013/01/01/on-the-fiscal-cliff-obama-does-what-he-can-against-200-years-of-bad-faith.html

The South really has been (and is still) the problem.

It will be interesting to see what the Republicans in the House do. If they vote this down (or don't allow it to come to a vote), Obama's weak negotiating approach will result in the "current agreement" becoming the starting point for further negotiations--and concessions--by Obama and the Dems.

Why Obama constantly gives away the store and gets little or nothing in return puzzles me. Although by now, maybe it shouldn't.

MP: If the Republicans try to lard this up or delay, it will fall apart. No way this goes to committee IMHO. It's take it as is or leave it...

Tomasky makes a dubious assertion:

Liberals who think he should just stand tough because he “holds all the cards” aren’t recognizing two important things.

First, he simply doesn’t hold all the cards. The Republicans control the House, and they have enough to block in the Senate.

1. We don't have the votes in the Senate only because Democrats are willing to retain the fillibuster and other rules transforming the Senate into a supermajority body. Our Card. OUR play.
2. Radicals control the GOP caucus, but it is unclear whether Democrats cannot press through legislation in the House with Discharge Petitions. All Nancy needs is about 20 GOP centrists to sign, and we have an up or down vote.

There is only one way to find out if the discharge petition route will work, and that is to make the attempt. Obama is too willing to preplay games rather than let them play out. In Suskind's book "Confidence Men", he noted that Pelosi rejected the sophistic excuses for inaction and advocated being bold and allowing the radical possibility of success to have its chance on the field of battle.

You can't preplay the game, Pelosi urged. Let's just get on the field and start playing. “You go through the gate. If the gate's closed, you go over the fence,”

Obama needs to take the risk that there are enough moderate GOP House members who will agree to allow up or down House votes on agenda items that don't give away the farm. After all, what risk is he taking? All that is lost is 30 days per measure. So the Senate ammends its rules, and pumps a steady stream of agenda items to the house with simple majorities. Moderate GOP members are dared not to sign the petition and Pelosi has a chance to work her magic. What do we have to lose.

This is why Tomasky's historical perspective is unduly pessimistic. Sure, the reactionaries have always been there. Progress is made when you don't get cowed by them and instead kick them in the teeth.

John Mess: Please identify those "20 GOP centrists". I imagine they will be 20 guys/gals who lose their committee status and assignments. I appreciate the sentiment and do not dispute that would be a great way to get things done, but I highly doubt it can happen. I would love to be wrong...

Hi TC-

Thanks for letting us know about Larry - and that he enjoyed coming here and commenting as he did. We need all the voices we can get, and I am sorry that his is gone. My condolences to his partner.

Rahm Emmanuel made a very good case, and had the legislative experience to make the case why the Affordable Care Act would never pass. Sure, he had an argument, and sure, you can look at the discipline on the GOP side and conclude that moderates will not behave any differently in the future.

Pelosi's point is that this is how you defeat yourself before you even play the game. This is how power works. You have power only because the other side perceives you have power. There is very good reason to challenge the premise that Boehner has an iron hold on discipline in his caucus.

We certainly accept he cannot control the extremists, so why should we accept the notion that he has any control over the moderates?

Not to forcefully execute the Discharge Petition pathway is to forfeit a play unnecessarily. What does it cost to attempt this path? What happens if Boehner stands on the requirement of approval of a majority of his caucus to bring a floor vote? What happens if 30 days from now there are enough GOP representatives scared to death of recession to vote with the Dems and it passes?

Similarly, the same is done for gun control and the kinds of climate legislation that moderate republicans like Bloomberg are advocating? THEN- the extremists are emasculated in the House, and instead recognized for the petulant children they are.

This is how power is exercised. The question is whether the President is willing to try a new approach and apply what he knows about parenting to the House.

John Mess: Pelosi already attempted a discharge petition for the Senate vote to extend the Bush/Obama Tax Cuts for 98% of us. It failed, likely because these House Reps have now seen Boehner fire four off of their committees. Nancy Pelosi ran the House like a professional, Boehner not so much. I share your view that there are members of the Republican Caucus that live in reality, but I don't share your optimism regarding their potential actions.

Are you asserting that a DP would not be possible should Boehner refuse to allow a House vote? I am well aware of the DP on the earlier Senate measure. You do realize that one won by 51-48, right? So you are comparing apples and oranges. That was a sharply polarized Senate vote, so there was zero political cover for a moderate to sign that DP. DPs do succeeed- that is the only reason why we had McCain-Feingold for a few years until SCOTUS stepped on it.

This is not about progressives being starry eyed optimists about the chances for success. It is about being noncredulous about the Right wing and Faux news beating their chests about how much power they have.

The Dem Leadership has to be willing to make the extremists prove they can stop the DP. We must be unwilling to accept their claims they hold enough cards to block legislation. Democrats must find the spine to become "Show me" progressives.

My bet is the right wing is far weaker than they claim they are.

John: I only compare what is available. That 51 to 48 vote represented the will of the American people, by alot, and it still got squashed. I see what you are saying about cover, but by that logic we should have a Farm Bill too. Hopefully Nancy will go all out to attempt this DP, and therefore split off the Republicans.

The best outcome is that the extremists are bypassed by the adults in the room led by Nancy. This would effectively demonstrate that the swaggering Tea-Pot dictators of public policy are poseurs with no clothes. This demonstrates to GOP moderates that stepping up to do the responsible thing is not a fruitless symbolic gesture, but the only pathway to do the governance work the public entrusted them to do.

It would be a weird and torturous way of doing legislation, but it seems clear that anything would be better than the alternative of a repeat of the 112th congressional fiasco.

DWIA, (I left you a message earlier on this page.)

It is starting to look like two wings of the same vulture.

Having said that, I prefer the left wing by a country mile.

I didn't have a drink last night; I was afraid I'd celebrate by ripping out my hair if I did. (Whew.)

You're a buffon as big as any wingnut.

Disgusted: name calling is for trolls, this board is for discussion. Your behavior this morning is way below board IMHO.

Too bad, Lebowsky. If you want to join the prostrate Democrats in trying to find something good in the Obama capitulation, go ahead. I'll call that what it is: cowardice. Stupidity is a form of trolling. Don't be stupid.

Look at KKKliffie. His chest is all puffed out. He's calling it a compromise. Now do you think if it had been a compromise, he'd be doing that. I didn't think so. Just admit it, dude. Obama sold you out. Obama gave Republicans their victory in 30 years. And if you can't see that, you're an idiot and part of the problem.

• Higher taxes on individuals earning $400,000 or more and families making $450,000 or more. Under that threshold, the Bush-era tax cuts would be permanent for all but the wealthiests households. The $450,000 threshold for families is a significant increase from Democrats' initial proposal to raise taxes on Americans making $250,000 or more but it is lower than Republicans' earlier proposal to raise taxes on households making $1 million or more.
• Tax rates on capital gains and dividends would rise for wealthier households.Taxes on capital gains and dividends would be held at their current levels of 15 percent for individuals making less than $400,000 and households with income of less than $450,000. They would rise to 20 taxpayers and households above those thresholds.
• Automatic spending cuts delayed for two months. The "sequester," which would impose steep, across-the-board cuts to domestic and defense programs, would be delayed for two months.
• One-year extension to unemployment insurance. Emergency unemployment benefits would be extended for a year. The extension was a priority for President Obama and congressional Democrats.
• One-year "doc fix." The measure would put off scheduled cuts in physician payments under Medicare.
• Personal exemptions phased out for households making over $250,000.Personal exemptions would be phased out and itemized deductions would be limited for taxpayers making over $200,000 and families earning more than $250,000.
• 40 percent estate tax. The estate tax is set to rise permanently to 40 percent from its current 35 percent level, with the first $5 million in assets exempted. Democrats had earlier sought a higher increase to 45 percent and a lower exemption of $3.5 million.
• Permanent fix to the Alternative Minimum Tax. The alternative minimum tax was levied to ensure the wealthiest Americans paid a fair share of taxes. It was not indexed for inflation but is usually "patched" annually to prevent an increasingly large swath of middle-class Americans from being caught in its net. As part of the fiscal deal, the AMT would be permanently indexed for inflation.
• Tax breaks for working families. The deal includes extensions of the American Opportunity Tax Credit, which can be claimed for college-related expenses; the Child Tax Credit; and the Earned Income Tax Credit, which is a refundable federal income tax credit for low-to-moderate income working Americans.
• Business tax breaks. The Senate Finance Committee passed a package in August that tackled a variety of routinely expiring tax provisions known as extenders. These include popular tax breaks including those for research and development. That package might now pass as part of the broader cliff deal.

How exactly, Disgusted, did Obama sell "us out?" How did he "cave?"

Now keep in mind that what you say puts you as a firm ideologue, which makes you as bad as the GOP @!$%#s who created this mess in the first place, all based upon the premise of "not giving an inch."

Not only did the GOP give that inch, they got a foot long stick shoved up their collective asses.

The fact that kkkliff is on this board doing its usual ignorant troll verbal vomit shows that it also got its ass handed to it with this Senate deal as well.

Trolls like KKKliff live to cause dissent, to talk ignorant bull@!$%#.

But you, Disgusted: either you are for forward movement, and in THIS case the GOP LOST, or you are for gridlock which is what the GOP is for.

Be realistic and be honest with yourself.

Disgusted: Name calling is for trolls, and it's a shame I have to repeat that like a first grade teacher. Anything you call me has been tempered by the fact that you have lost my respect. It only stings when people I respect call me names, so go ahead and call me whatever you like all day. Same thing with Fiscalcliffclavin. That fella can "celebrate" all day whatever he likes, but that does not mean I respect his opinion or slant. I make my own choices, based on my own feelings.

You've already been replied to on that, Lebowsky. You almost certainly won't like it. But I couldn't care less. You're a teacher to no one. I don't have that much respect for you.

Donna, I know the details. There's no more defending Barack Obama. This is his worst act. Bar none. I'm no longer a supporter of his, and I frankly despise the man. I hate cowards. I hate irresolute people. I hate people who will not fight when it is time to fight. Especially when they have the winning hand. To give it ALL away, ..., well, there's just not words. I can't stand Barack Obama any more.

Get yourself all tied up in the details of that thing if you like without seeing the bigger picture of history. When you see the bigger picture, you'll understand just how bad this is. Democrats will now be the irresponsible party on spending AND on revenue. The dismantling of the 20th century now begins thanks to Barack Obama. And the building of the 21st will stop. Thanks to Barack Obama. Barack Obama has killed FDR. Slow death, but death nonetheless.

Congratulations on your victory, KKKliff. Make sure you send a "Thank you" to Barack Obama so that those who come after you won't get the earned benefits that those that came before you made possible for you.

And thank Mr. Obama for letting the South rise again. Isn't that ironic? A black man resurrects the South and everything it stands for.

You make me want to vomit. On you. And on Barack Obama.

What really AMAZES me is how many people are content to settle for the "scraps" that Obama was able to get from that deal.

COME ON folks, OBAMA WON - he shouldn't have to settle for "scraps" and you shouldn't be so satisfied that he did!!

In two months, we are going to have this battle again - and what will Obama have to give up then? Do you really expect him or the Democratic Party to grow a spine in that short amount of time?

Let's face it - the Democrats and Obama are powerless to do anything for the middle class - so it is up to us!! Or we can be content to settle for the scraps, hoping someone, somehow, will eventually "save" us!!

Yea, let's just take the "easy" way out - live on scraps and hope that maybe Jesus will come and "save" us!!

You know what he's going to give them: the beginning of the dismantling of the 20th century starts in a couple of weeks when Republicans start taking the economy hostage. We know what the ransom is, and we know Barack Obama will pay it. And we now know the Senate Democrats and House will pay it. There is never a time for these creatures to fight.

Here's what we have to hang our hopes on: Barack Obama says he will not negotiate over the debt ceiling. That's right. We have the spine of Barack Obama to pin our hopes on. So say good-bye to the 20th century and FDR. And we also know we can say good-bye to any note of progress in the 21st. Except we do have the entrenched plutocracy to look forward to.

Thank you, Barack Obama.

As for KKKliffie: Do you see folks just what sort of person Barack Obama has given a massive victory? That's right. KKKliffie knows he won. He's at least that smart. That's why he's gloating. Enjoying it everybody? Well get used to it. Ol' Shooter will be rubbing it in, too. Forever. You can hear his arguments, can't you? Don't want to pay for your free stuff. And guess what? Idiot America will buy it. Because Democrats just made Bush tax cuts PERMANENT. Made possible by Barack Obama.

And KKKliffie: Go get run over you stupid, obnoxious, odious piece of shhit.

I've been patient with you, DW, and you just come on with the insults.

Thank you, I still respect you, but rein it in. You have succeeded in letting everyone know you're pissed off. Now take a deep breath and realise you're beginning to upset some folks that respect what you have to say.

Suck it up, get off the @!$%#ing pity pot, because you're better than welfarecheck1234 and his/her ilk.

I know you're not happy, and that's fine. I'm not that ecstatic about it either, but it's a start.

Peace.

Disgusted,

You are off your rocker with this. Your case of projection, what YOU would have done is really showing here. You are having a tantrum based upon what YOU would have done. Which again, makes you no better than the GOP who want gridlock in Washington.

And you say you know the details: explain how Obama "caved" and the "goodbye to the FDR thingy..." Explain yourself. Because you are just having a tantrum based upon hysterics, and not based upon reality.

YOU are not president. You are projecting certain traits onto Obama, and are being unrealistic. People like you said Obama caved in the debt ceiling talks when in reality nothing could have been further from the truth; the GOP shot themselves in the foot then and are dealing with those consequences now. This is a mess of their own making.

As for KKKliff, he is just an idiot, who has absolutely no clue as to the details of this deal. He got his right wing talking points from the right wing sites and is spewing them on this thread, with a healthy dose of inbred troll on the side.

He is to be pitied and ignored.

But you Disgusted, you should be disgusted with yourself. Not those on this thread that have always been here for you and your views. You are wrong on this one.

You will come to understand what a sad day this is, Donna.

Don't worry, Knobson. I'm pretty much finished with internet forums. There's little to be learned and find it mostly depressing to see first hand how little understanding and insight almost all people have. Even more depressing is to then see how that inability of the population is taken advantage of by not just those we expect are taking advantage but by those whom we think is on our side.

Yesterday, today, and tomorrow are going to be extremely sad days in American history when it's all said and done and when history looks back on it. You will see. Barack Obama has just made America a much diminished country for you, yours, and future generations. And a worse world because we know he will do nothing to confront the world's worst problem.

Barack Obama is a coward who can not and will not stand up to the confrontation offered by people who would think nothing of throwing him or his supporters under the bus. He is not a leader. After four years, I have no choice but to be extremely sorry he won in 2008 instead of Hillary Clinton. Extremely, extremely sorry.

I'm willing to give him one more chance. He must stand up to the Republicans on the debt ceiling and he must end their ability to use it to hold the country's economy hostage. For good. I think he will fail to stick to his word that he will not negotiate with the terrorists over it. I desperately want him to prove me wrong. He won't. He will start dismantling the social safety net and the beginning of the erasure of the 20th century will begin.

You will see.

COME ON, everybody! We ARE actually ON the same side, but some of us are NOT willing to settle for the tiny pieces that the middle class got out of this compared to what the wealthy got!

WHEN did we become so passive? I can remember the 60's and 70's when we, the people, FOUGHT for civil rights, for women's rights, for abortion rights, for union rights, for an end to the war in Viet Nam, and for environmental protection. WHEN did we become a country that "settled" for scraps, thinking that was "the best we could get"??

You can tell who won by the fact that we're the ones fighting amongst ourselves in an internecine battle.

oncearepublican is absolutely correct. Democrats used to have some gumption and hormones and would actually fight for something or against something. But now, look at the milquetoasts amongst us. There's no fight. We better get it back.

One final thing before I leave for good. Here's a video. Guess which actor(s) are playing the Republicans, which is playing the 20th century and the safety net, and which is playing us.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vslc42q8ViM

Look who won. Is that how you want it to be? The vicious NEVER give up.

Learn to fight. And even better, learn when you have to fight and who you have to fight.

Good-bye.

Here's the thing, once;

Do we all want that "big piece?" Then get to work getting that. And good luck to you. But be realistic. Celebrate the small steps in an atmosphere ruled by dogma, which is why there is gridlock in Washington.

The civil rights gains did not happen overnight and was made with many, many, MANY baby steps. As was the rights of women and their right to choose.

This is not a kumbaya moment. It is what it is. And it is a pretty good deal that protects the middle class, the elderly,the poor, and the unemployed. And in this current climate that is a damn good deal and a big victory.

What we don't need is firebaggers and emoprogs having an emotional breakdown. They were wrong about the debt ceiling talks. And they are wrong now.

We don't need dogma to override common sense and compromise, because that makes us just as out of touch and unrealistic as the GOP.

We have always been a country that "settled for scraps" thinking that was the "best we could get." You may not have been aware of it.

Just ask my grandparents and parents that "settled for scraps" and the "best we could get" so that my brothers and sisters, all eight of us, could go to college and get an education. Some of us call "settling for scraps" and the "best we could get" as a necessary sacrifice so that others can eat, get a decent education, do a little better than those before us, and all of it, ALL OF IT, is forward progress.

What needs to be done is this: chill the @!$%# out about this deal. Know that it is not perfect by any means, but it is a hell of alot better than it could have been had the GOP had more sense, and robme had been elected president. Their tantrums created this mess, and they did lose this round, not to mention they have lost face with this whole nightmare of their own creation. People are waking up to this fact. Now, people can call all of this "settling" and what not, but that is how change takes place. Slowly. And over time.

Disgusted: The only reason there is infighting here is your personal insistence to make this personal, and your liberal use of insults. Otherwise it's as it usually is, rational people discussing politics. Even your post above when you claim you are "done" with internet forums, you blame that on others not towing your line.

Disgusted, don't leave!! Sooner or later, some of these people are going to see the light!!

Donna,

The problem is that we are NOT taking "baby steps", we are just getting walked on! Baby steps are great as long as the people around you aren't running over you!

Everything, AND I MEAN EVERYTHING that comes out of this Congress HURTS the middle class - it is time for some of us to stand up and say ENOUGH!

Where would the Civil Rights movement been if the Freedom Riders said "we have to take baby steps" - we can't make "waves"?

Where would the Civil Rights movement have been if Rosa Parks said "OK, it's enough that I am on the bus"?

Where would the Civil Rights movement have been if SO MANY activists said - "OK, we are getting scraps - that is enough for now!"

WE have to start somewhere - everything had a beginning, and it is time for us to have ours. We can't make changes until we actually START!!

Did you see my calculations? Even at the worst case, the rich will get a tax increase less than 1% more than the middle class - and by the way, the middle class taxes are going up 2% - and you think this "Fiscal-Cliff negotiation" was a "baby step"? Maybe backwards!!

I know, you want to "believe" that things are going to get better without any of you really doing anything - when has that ever worked?

@oncearepublican: I wish I felt that it was time well spent. But I haven't felt that in a long time. In a way, I wish the internet had never been made available to the masses. It has done nothing but validate my worst fears about Americans.

While we watch as the Useful Idiots continually get their way in a merciless march toward the right, the Useless Liberals, by far more intelligent, insightful, empathic, knowledgable about economics, science, art, politics, and solutions to the nations problems and much more cooperative on the very large scare (as long as it doesn't take them out of there comfort zone), are politically ineffectual and impotent at realizing their goals. When the wingnuts call liberals "losers," there's truth in it. Make no mistake about it. Instead of marching as one to demand what is right, there's incessant navel-gazing and endless scenarios and possibilities to action ruminated on and in which no decision is made. I've seen it over and over. I've lived it over and over in person. Liberals don't act. They ruminate. They make snark. They fight amongst each other while conservatives band together for a holy war.

Well, we have our holy war. The right has given it to us. But we have no liberal warriors, just co-opted and semi-co-opted poseurs. People with their hands on their chins ruminating, whining, taking another half loaf. And the masses almost completely ignorant of how those with power are giving even more away.

It's almost gone, folks. You better learn to fight. Together and with purpose. Or it WILL be gone and with today's world, it won't be coming back.

Good-bye.

The problem is that we are NOT taking "baby steps", we are just getting walked on! Baby steps are great as long as the people around you aren't running over you!

How is the GOP running over Obama and the Democrats?

Everything, AND I MEAN EVERYTHING that comes out of this Congress HURTS the middle class - it is time for some of us to stand up and say ENOUGH!

How does EVERYTHING in this bill hurt the middle class? Explain, please.

Where would the Civil Rights movement have been if SO MANY activists said - "OK, we are getting scraps - that is enough for now!

Nothing could be further from the truth. Many, many, MANY small steps had to be taken for the demand to be made. MANY.

And WE have started somewhere.

Did you see my calculations? Even at the worst case, the rich will get a tax increase less than 1% more than the middle class -

And again, once; that is how you interpret it, but you haven't a clue(and I don't mean to offend you) as to how this will affect the rich. And if you did, your rear end(as well as the other parts of you) needs to be in Washing affecting that GREAT CHANGE you love to speak about.

and by the way, the middle class taxes are going up 2% -

Which I will gladly pay because the rich will pay more as well. I got no problem with that at all.

and you think this "Fiscal-Cliff negotiation" was a "baby step"? Maybe backwards!!

I have to call bullsh*t on that one, once. And if you think you can do better, then by God, get yourself to Washing and whoop republican ass. ASAP.

You want to believe in the worse, per your quarterback couch analysis.

And what have you done about this? What have you done to make this better other than to bitch and moan on this thread?

And what the @!$%# do you know about what I have or have not done?

Did I make you mad, Donna? Goood!!! Now get off your duff and start working!! Everyone one of us can make a difference and by working together, we can take this country back!

Just leave out that civil rights did not start or end in the 60's that was when the fight went from out in the open to behind closed doors. Civil rights are still being fought every time a person gets pulled over for driving black or a black man is found beat to death in a jail cell or that a black man gets a stiffer sentence then a white because the courts are not color blind. Civil rights go all the way back to 1775 and the beginning of the United States. Really you need to stop with this I want it my way or I'm taking my and going home crap. What should impress you is something got passed in the senate without anyone screaming filibuster like they have been for the last 4 years.

Actually, no, once, you haven't made me mad.

In fact, I feel sorry for you.

And again: what have YOU done, other than bitch and moan on this thread, to change things?

And again: you have no idea what I have or have not done to help affect change.

Nor would you care because of your emotional rants on this site today.

The slogan "take our country back" is a right wing meme that I don't agree with or use, so if you want to motivate others to join your righteous rant, you may need to change that slogan of yours.

And whom, you are absolutely right.

Civil Rights issues have been going on a LONG TIME and I agree that fight isn't over yet! But the fact is that people are DOING something about it in large and small ways.

My issues is that we all get on here and whine and cry about what is happening with Congress and don't DO anything, and then get "thrilled" by votes that give us a tiny bite but give others mouthfuls, when if we joined together, we could accomplish some MAJOR gains just like what happened in the 60's. Those gains didn't happen by accident - there were people who were willing to stick their necks out and say "ENOUGH - thinks have got to change!" It is ONLY when these heroes, big and small, were willing to take a chance that things FINALLY started moving.

What are some of the things we can do? We can find a leader we believe in and are willing to support - someone charismatic that will get people to follow him/her sort of like MLK - he wasn't the ONLY one in the Civil Rights Movement, but he is the one everyone remembers!

We can march on Washington - if Glenn Beck could do it, then certainly we can! We can support candidates even if we don't have money, by volunteering.

If you think about it, I'm betting you can find things you can do. But if we just sit here and moan and groan and don't get out there and DO, we will be doing this again in two years and then again in two years....

The right wing Republicans didn't just "appear" on the national stage overnight - they laid the groundwork for their takeover - we need to do the same thing!

Then Donna,

TELL me what you are doing! I am more than willing to work with you or other people to get things done, but it just seems we are all working independently and that just isn't accomplishing anything. We need to join together somehow and get a good leader so that we don't end up like OWS.

Frankly, I am totally frustrated because I just can't sit and watch this country and its middle class go down the tubes - I need to DO something more!

Do I come off brash and offensive sometimes? Yep, that is just me! But Donna, you do too sometimes - that DOESN'T put us on opposite sides!!

I see welfare cliff is still spewing hard work nonsense yet when work got hard cliff went running for a handout. We get it cliff you expect others to do what you refused to do.

C'mon, man. This is going to sail through so easily it'll be like a diarrhea-laxative combo. Why? Because Republicans know Obama has just killed FDR for them. This is Republicans' greatest victory ever since Reagan. This is The One. They have won the war. Understand it. Republicans have won. The whole thing.

Need numbers? Here's the Senate vote on this disaster:

89 - 8.
Democrats stampeded to give Republicans their greatest victory over Democrats. The stupidity of Democrats is off the charts. Completely off the charts. And you think Republicans are going to stand in the way of Democrats giving them their greatest victory? You're as dumb as they are.

Now, remember when Republicans wanted Obama to fail. Here's how they acted:

GOP Obstruction: S-CHIP (Signed 2/2009)

Senate Vote: 66 – 32; GOP votes: 8

House Vote: 290 – 135; GOP votes: 41

GOP Obstruction: ARRA - Stimulus (Signed: 2/2009)

Senate Vote: 60 – 38 ; GOP votes: 2

House Vote: 246 – 183 ; GOP votes: 0

GOP Obstruction: PPACA (Health Care Reform, ObamaCare) (Signed: 3/2010)

Senate Vote: 60 – 39; GOP votes: 0

House Vote: 219 – 212; GOP votes: 0

GOP Obstruction: Dodd-Frank (Wall Street Reform) (Signed: 7/2010)

Senate Vote: 60 – 39; GOP votes: 3

House Vote: 237 – 192; GOP votes: 3

GOP Obstruction: Extended Unemployment Benefits (Signed: 7/2010) (Can't even extend unemployment?)

Senate Vote: 59 – 39; GOP votes: 2

House Vote: 272 – 152; GOP votes: 31

GOP Obstruction: Small Business Jobs Act (Signed: 9/2010)

Senate Vote: 61 – 38; GOP votes: 0

House Vote: 237 – 187; GOP votes: 1

-----

GOP Obstruction: DISCLOSE Act (Signed: No. Filibustered)

See the difference?

Disgusted: The certainty you claim to have is so patently disengenuous, and when you try to wield that on fellow commenters it's simply rude. The House Republicans hardly share your slant on things, they were unable to even have a vote on Plan B. The vote would have already happened if it was going to sail through.

We'll see won't we?

I've put down money that Boehner won't bring it to a vote.

DWIA, You need to get a cat to hug.

It works so well, but now my cat is hiding from me, behind the bathroom door. I think I hugged him too much last night, wondering how badly we Dems were going to get screwed.

Lots of hugs last night, for a fact. (Remember the good stuff, like, Romney is not President. We don't have to see his insincere, hypocritical face anymore!)

That makes me happy.

It is not through the House, the "deal" is just a vote. The "deal" was voted "aye" by Bernie Sanders and Barbara Boxer.

Liberals, the most liberal in the Senate, I'd wager.

I know one thing for sure, we have got Republicants all over the map and they're not happy with Boehner. I don't think they are going to vote for this, it's raising taxes.

This is just the Senate vote, but when Teapubs amend it, will they still vote for this?

Now, I say we have to get the grown ups back in charge in the House. They lost some of the wackadoos, but we still have to get the House back.

DWIA is viewing this as a defacto win for Rs. Well, they have the House majority, but they are all over the place. Crying the blues and pointing at Obama. Looks pathetic to me. One R saying "Starve the Beast" doesn't work and asking who is Grover Norquist. Then we have Rand Paul bloating about too much taxes.

I just want the filibuster to be revamped, stop letting the Minority obstruct everything. Has Reid brought it up? The new 113th starts when? Are they going to start off with a vote to cut down filibustering? I hope so, I understand they are sworn in Jan. 3.

Call me milquetoast, but I voted for no Rs. I can't be angry about this, except I do not get the voting for Rs in the House or Senate. When will voters understand they are for tax cuts for rich, corps. getting favoritism and priority to take handouts from public funds? I don't hear any TPers mentioning that much at all. Because they are owned by them.

We can only focus on getting people in R districts (and Ds and Is) to write their reps. to say don't cut my Medicare and SS. Don't let these idiots call it "free stuff", either. We paid for it, now stop the bs about free stuff and it went to grandparents. That's crap. Buying insurance for later, others that need it now, get what they paid. When it's my time, there it is.

I see the "deal" is just the in 112th Senate. The House has not and probably won't get their s together because of the infighting amongst themselves. You know in the TPub party they are all about political wrangling and power, even between themselves. Remember Cantor standing behind Boehner with a knife to his back.

I'm going to look at the show and wait for their amendments, then watch the Senate say "no way". This is all sausage making, not for the faint of heart. I urge folks to start flooding their reps phones and emails etc. Yes, fight for it. Work for 2014 to get out voters again and not sleep through it.

I'm one person, I do what I can. I'm not giving up because things look mousey in Congress Dems. Fight, talk to Reps. Voting is only part of it.

If Bernie and Boxer "aye" voted on this I have no reason to panic. We are not even close to a finished bill. Lots of time to tell Reps "hands off Medicare, etc". The current form postpones Medicare cuts for a year and gets unemployment extended. This is not nearly over.

I was wrong. Guess that's why I am not into "predictions".

January 4, 2013 brings another turning point in our democracy. The 113th Congress will be sworn in, and Speaker Boehner will find out if he gets to keep his gavel. We cannot just assume that the new blood in the Senate and the House will not change the story of politics. It may not change much, but it will change. Predictions of doom and gloom and the end times are too extreme at this point. What the Senate has proposed is reasonable, not dire.

January 3, 2013. Sorry, I've got a bit of a fiscal cliff hangover.

Although I do not agree with you; you are right on one thing. $400,000.00 per year is a lot of money. $250,000.00 breaks down to approximately 5000.00 per week. If I could make 5 thou per week all my family problems would be over.

Actually I was pleased to get out of this (so far) without privatizing Social Security and making Medicare into a voucher program. Of course it hasn't passed the house yet, and there's still the debt ceiling BS to go through, so I'm not getting too comfortable as yet. (s/o)

It's New Year's Day. Here's hoping for a better year in 2013, and bottom line, we survived the end of the world! :}

You are satisfied with "scraps" and with the fact that the "worst" didn't happen?

You know, there was a time when there were a few blacks who were against the Civil Rights Movement because they too were "satisfied" with the scraps from white tables and "afraid of the worst".

Thank GOD there were MANY others who were NOT satisfied and thought this country should do better by them!!!

WE, the middle class, have GOT to STOP being satisfied with "scraps". It is TIME to tell Congress that they need to do better by us!!!

So you thought this deal was gonna make us all rich???

Sorry "c", not all of us worship money. Getting "rich" was never anything I aspired to - I was always more interested in getting a better quality of life for ALL of us and being content that the world was a better place because I was here for a while....

Please tell us how President Obama was to get "more"? The Republicans control, for want of a better word, the House; although Boehner certainly doesn't control his caucus. You can't pressure ideologues (just ask DWIA) and the few relatively sane Republicans in the House are scared sh*tless about being primaried from the right.

The citizenry rely on the MSM for their information about what's happening in DC and the MSM is only worried about two things: not getting their cocktail party invites cancelled (their "both sides do it" takes care of that) and the accounting departments at their respective headquarters. The MSM is not worried about actually providing information; if it was we most likely wouldn't be in this mess. If any group of people are spineless, my vote goes to the talking heads on cable and network "news" programs.

As it is, neither the President nor Democrats can expect what they do to be reported in context and, therefore, a lot of what we've had to go through the last two+ years has been solely to keep the Democrats in view as the "sane" ones, willing to make some compromises if necessary. DWIA to the contrary (rather appropriate, that!), politics is a matter of compromise. The Democrats don't lack a spine, rather the have a sense of responsibility, even to those who didn't vote for them. It's that sense of responsibility that prevents them from being the ideologues DWIA so wishes they were.

That's a "good" thing, BTW...

Oh, the House will eventually pass it, but before they do, they are going to extract as much pain as they can. First, they will offer "amendments" which must be discussed and rejected, then they will probably have the first vote which will fail, and then they will have another vote later, after they've extracted a few more concessions, that will pass.

Meanwhile, the unemployed are getting nothing, the government is having to spend BIG BUCKS to change tax codes and figure out furloughs, etc, all for nothing. Payments will be delayed to people who really need them. People who do their taxes immediately so they can get their returns fast, will be screwed because all the people who look at tax returns are busy figuring out what to do for the "interim period" while the House "fiddles". A lot more other bad things will happen and the House will revel in the damage they've caused!!

Yes. Yes. Yes. They will revel the damage, and then they can go to work for the Koch Bros. because they will not return to the house next election. I did say woodshed, but reveling deserves a beat down. I am sure we will be well appraised of who voted for what and when with a minimum of research.

It will pass the House because the Republicans know what a great deal they are getting.

sandyh - I know you won't believe this, but Biden was outsmarted by the Republicans.

The look on Biden's face should be embarrassment that he had to walk in and negotiate while our President disappeared in the White House.

DemElizabeth, #15,

Wow, it is so good to see you here! I get to wish you a Happy and Blessed New Year. How ARE you?

I am far from thrilled with the concessions, but I figure it could have been worse. At least we're not saying, "President Romney", this year!

That's how I make myself feel better, Liz. That, and starting the new year by going to 11:00 mass.

I needed that today. I hugged the cat near to death last night and now he's hiding from me! LOL

Happy New Year India! I am so glad the crew came over to Maddow...........she best not change the format on us like Ed did..........can't stand it.....no fun and very confusing.

Yes, I am also grateful and thankful for President Obama.....we have to get control back of the house also.........they think they can't be put out of office.........they also thought they would put President Obama out............we will get rid of the teabaggin' terrorists and the NRA Norquists step-ford wives. It is called throwing out the money-changers with whips....

Have a blessed day............

DEM, #15.2 I love the Maddow blog. I have a serious problem with my eyes, and sometimes don't see too well. Also, light bothers me and Ed's blog is so bright! I can't take it.

I am so glad you are here. Rachel is so intelligent and perceptive. I enjoy her insights a great deal. She's funny, too! I like her sense of humour.

Have a good one, kiddo!

I agree, but we have to email our congressional reps and tell them to vote this down. Now. Read this morning's editorial from the NY TImes on the Senate vote (below). It is right on.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/01/01/opinion/a-tepid-agreement-on-the-fiscal-cliff.html?hp

The $400,000 figure is clearly the one thing the Democrats gave the GOP for saving face. But the GOP CAVED ON RAISING TAXES, something no one is even mentioning (except Obama in his remarks). How can this not be a positive development???

ROTFLMAO! The GOP "caved" on raising taxes???????? Wait till you see your first paycheck.....

Time to do a little math.....

In 2013, if you earn less than $110,100, your payroll tax is going up 2%. You don't pay this tax on anything over $110,100. Say you earn $100,000.

Now for those earning over $400,000, their tax is going up 4.6% on anything over $400,000.

Sooo, say a person earns $1,000,000. He pays the same 6.2% on the first 110,100 and then he pays an additional 4.6% on anything over $400,000. Let's assume he DOESN"T use the capital gains tax.

When you do the calcs, your total tax goes up 2%, the millionaire's total taxes go up 2.9%. WOW!!! We are really SOCKING it to the rich, aren't we?

Yes, and this time Obama is going to barnstorm the Republicans on the debt ceiling and do a shame tour. McCains fees fees were hurt yesterday, imagine a National tour of speeches telling the truth about the debt and hostage taking.

jjm,

This battle is NOT over - it will resume in two months. Obama showed that he is willing and able to "give" on what he claimed he would NOT give on. Exactly WHAT did "we" get? The ONLY thing we got was unemployment insurance for one more year and we get to keep some income tax credits.

And what did we give away?

1) Tax increases on people who make $250,000 - 400,000 and a small tax increase on those who earn more - so the people who make over $400,000 have most of their income taxed at a low rate - so you KNOW the machinations that will take place by the ultra rich to reduce their taxable income to $400,000 or close.

2) A VERY LOW increase in capital gains tax from 15% to 20%, still NOT as high as the 33% marginal tax rate we have now on people who actually WORK for a living and earn $250,000.

3) Payroll taxes (the most regressive taxation there is) will rise to their former levels so you will see a decrease in your take home pay.

4) No deal on "sequestration"

5) Obama wanted $1.6 Trillion in savings, instead he got $600 Billion

6) The ultra-rich get more exemptions on their investments and estate taxes even though the over all tax rate will rise (but the exemptions will negate the tax rise).

"This deal" (if it gets through the House) is only half done. The cuts to SS and Medicare and Medicaid will come with the debt ceiling debate. What Obama has done with this "deal" is to disarm the Democrats for that debate. Taxes are now off the table. Next round, spending cuts. Guess what's going to happen, and what's going to get cut because the Democrats have nothing left to bargain with.

^Bingo. You've/we've won the bargain basement booby prize! Thanks Mr. President, I knew I voted for you again for, some reason....

I've been hearing since before Obama was elected that his real goal was to cut entitlements. Has it happened yet? What has he been waiting for? I think his idea is to go about strengthening SS and Medicare in a rational way, and though I could be wrong, I have seen absolutely nothing to suggest that he is secretly lusting to destroy our social safety nets.

You are COMPLETELY missing the point jjm - when the next battle comes, Obama has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to bargain with to PROTECT our safety nets.

Trollop, Look on the bright side: We're not saying, "President Romney" this year, or next, or next, or next............ ad infinitum!

Hey, Happy New Year anyway!

India. You need a dog. they never get tired of hugs.

LOL. I'm a cat person. I like dogs. It is just that they aren't cats.

Dogs steal your bed pillow. (Right?) LOL How is he doing this new year?

What are you having for dinner today? I made a chicken pot pie with a really flaky crust. Yum. Jack is still drooling over the chicken.

What Trollop said , But both my Iowa Dem and GOP Senators voted against it , so I am sticking with them for now

Only dems can be dealt a winning hand , and end up folding , but then they let the gop run off with their woman to boot , these people never draw a line , and the gop know it , the gop are confident they can get even more now , and who could blame them?

I think someone called President Obama the worst poker player ever (here, let me give you my best card). You analysis is spot on regarding negotiations. Biden is the real player; Obama should have called him in sooner.

Except Boehner can't get re-elected as Speaker until the new Congress convenes, which means this bill would be dead. It's possible that they could bring it right back for a new vote in the House and Senate, but more likely by then all those carping around the edges of the deal will blow the whole thing up.

(As for the comment thread, if you click the name of someone you find too discordant, there's an option where you can block individual commenters from your own view.)

Sarah, I agree about the trolls. My New Years resolution is to ignore their hate and evil laughter. Do you know how to his "Ignore"? You click on the little exclamation thing at the bottom right of you comment block.

Unfortunately, as for the GOP outhouse politicians being precarious...they're not. Gerrymandering gave them lots of time to obstruct the president.

(When he's not busy obstructing himself...)

Someone needs to remind the emoprogs that the Democrats need some Republican votes to get *anything* to pass that body. This is reality, not redistricting wishful thinking here. Obama won the election for President, he didn't get installed as Emperor.

Otherwise, see comment 6.5, this thread.

(Cantor, I can't help you with.)

The T-party now has put the bill in limbo. Gee, it takes no time at all to hear from the Outhouse whackos! WTF do you morons want?

President Obama, GIVE THEN NOTHING! We cannot be ruled by a crazy, rabid minority who were sent here just to obstruct.

YOU LOST. Get over it, you treasonist morons.

Note to President Obama: Tell them NEGOTIATIONS are OVER. We're going over the cliff, and you can tell the unemployed all about why they won't be getting any money.

Grow a set, Obama. These people are just bullies and if you give in, they will surely keep going with it. They love this game.