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With the various alternative schemes no longer under consideration, House Republicans are having to come to terms with two difficult questions: just how far are they prepared to take their hostage strategy and how prepared are they to shoot the hostage and deal with the consequences?
Politico has a lengthy piece today, reporting, "House Republicans are seriously entertaining dramatic steps, including default or shutting down the government, to force President Barack Obama to finally cut spending by the end of March." That Obama has already cut spending isn't mentioned, but the point of the article is that the House GOP is every bit as crazy as it seems.
The idea of allowing the country to default by refusing to increase the debt limit is getting more widespread and serious traction among House Republicans than people realize, though GOP leaders think shutting down the government is the much more likely outcome of the spending fights this winter.
"I think it is possible that we would shut down the government to make sure President Obama understands that we're serious," House Republican Conference Chairwoman Cathy McMorris Rodgers of Washington state told us.
If you're thinking "make sure [the other guy] understands that we're serious" sounds like a cliched phrase usually uttered by a hostage taker in an action movie, you and I are on the same page.
The Politico piece goes on to report, "To the vast majority of House Republicans, it is far riskier long term to pile up new debt than it is to test the market and economic reaction of default or closing down the government."
Since the article doesn't mention it, I can only hope folks realize that the debt ceiling has nothing to do with "piling up new debt," but rather, pays for spending that's already happened.
But the larger takeaway here is that House Republicans want everyone to know they're fully prepared to follow through on their threats. Indeed, many of them are apparently looking forward to it.
GOP officials said more than half of their members are prepared to allow default unless Obama agrees to dramatic cuts he has repeatedly said he opposes. Many more members, including some party leaders, are prepared to shut down the government to make their point. House Speaker John Boehner "may need a shutdown just to get it out of their system," said a top GOP leadership adviser. "We might need to do that for member-management purposes -- so they have an endgame and can show their constituents they're fighting."
"Get it out of their system"? Republicans are prepared to force a crisis ... because it would make them feel better about themselves?
Obama assumes Republicans would never be so foolish as to put the economy at risk to win a spending fight. Conservatives say he's definitely wrong on that score. They say he's the foolish and reckless one for piling up $6 trillion in debt on his watch.
It's unfortunate that the Politico passes along so many of these Republican allegations without scrutiny, but it's worth noting, in case anyone's forgotten, that (a) trashing the full faith and credit of the United States would almost certainly produce catastrophic results; (b) Republicans would get the blame for hurting Americans on purpose; and (c) the $6 trillion in new debt is largely the result of Republican policies.
Rep. Jason Chaffetz (R-Utah) added, "No one wants to default, but we are not going to continue to give the president a limitless credit card."
Of course, though Politico doesn't mention it, this doesn't make any sense. Paying for spending that's already happened is not giving the president anything, and certainly doesn't give him a limitless credit card. Once again, it's not complicated: Congress has the power of the purse, and the White House can't spend money that Congress hasn't already appropriated.
Starting Monday, Boehner will huddle with his leadership team to discuss his preliminary thinking on a spending strategy. A source who attended meetings to prepare for those private talks said GOP leaders are authentically at a loss on how to control members who don't respond to the normal incentives of wanting to help party leaders or of avoiding situations -- like default -- that could be public relations nightmares.
Perhaps Democrats are supposed to read this and think, "Well, we better pay the ransom and gut Social Security and Medicare, since Boehner can't control his radicalized caucus."
Indeed, the Politico piece added that House Republicans not only are prepared to create a crisis, but will also refuse to compromise on the automatic sequestration cuts, no matter the consequences.
How much of this is bluffing through the media and how much of it is genuine insanity is open to debate, but at this point, with about 45 days to go before some very serious trouble, the House GOP is well past the limits of what's generally considered acceptable under modern political norms.
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Wall Street has already told these morons not to go down this road. They only have to look at the last time they did this and what the results were.
At the same time, the President seems to be willing to walk into their hands and have the country be taken hostage. The Democrats are already giving him cover to use the 14th amendment as leverage, and he appears to be unwilling to use that, or anything else.
So after the Republicans shut down the government, are they going to cry for Obama to be impeached because he let them do it?
And then, the next year, Wall Street dumped vast sums of money into the political campaigns of said morons, thereby emphasizing that there were no consequences for ignoring their stern admonishments.
You know the Politico story is hogwash because no way in heck do the neocons simply allow the defense sequestor without peeing in thier pants. Only a complete fool thinks that is true.
Folks need to read Naomi Klein's book, The Shock Doctrine. She explains how the Republicans uses crises or "disaster Capitalism" to push their egregious agendas through.
The Politico story, like so many other Politico stories, is indeed hogwash - mainly because it's shoddy reporting that either simply repeats the Republican propaganda or actually distorts the record.
There's a wonderful take down of the piece at Daily Kos.
"Yup, Republicans are talking nonsense. But clueless reporting isn't helping."
Obama is going to finally cut spending? That's not the Republicans talking - that's the "reporters".
What planet are they living on - RepublicanWorld?
>pays for spending that's already happened.
The liberal media is spelling this out for everyone at every opportunity, right? Right?
It's unfortunate that the Politico passes along so many of these Republican allegations without scrutiny,
It may be unfortunate, but it's certainly unsurprising, given that The Politico is a far right disinformation project dedicated to doing exactly this.
Given that members of Congress take an oath of office to defend and protect a Constitution that directs that the public debt of the United States shall not be mucked about with, it would be nice to see the Confederate Republicans arrested for the traitors they are, which would shock the rest back to reality.
There was an article last week in the L.A. Times pointing out that the majority of House Republicans come from the South, and form the votes that are "crazy," while the non-Southern Republicans are (with exceptions like Steve King, Michelle Bachmann and Paul Ryan) still mostly reasonable people who were the ones who voted for the fix to the fiscal crisis and such.
Further proof of where "America's native criminal class" is found - south of the Mason-Dixon line, surprise surprise. Insane barbarians with idiot politics, moron economics, and even nuttier religion. No wonder they are totally screwed up.
Maybe Lincoln made a mistake, we just should have let them go. They suck up our taxes, don't educate their children, abandon the poor refuse to pay their fair share.
God help us all.
President Obama, or spokespeople for the White House, need to be on television every day for the next two months reminding the American people exactly who is responsible for this mess and exactly who is acting irresponsibly.
He needs to force CEOs and other 'industry leaders' to the White House to let them know that they bear responsibility for the congresspeople they put in power.
Oi.
fugudaddy,
That's exactly what needs to be done. Problem is, he won't do it. Maybe the TV ratings are more important, as it helps their corporate sponsors. Hence, the media keeps everyone on edge till the last minute:
"Stay tuned for the coming disaster; be very afraid!"
If Obama gets on and placates people, the ratings will go down. These are the corporations who line politicians pockets, including the president's pockets.
Politicians have deep pockets.
I just watched the President's press conference. He made it abundantly clear that it is the responsibility of congress to act. He did not say he would invoke the 14th Amendment if the minority in congress succeeds in refusing to raise the debt ceiling, but he did not rule it out. He said it would not be necessary if the congress takes the appropriate action. He did say over and over that the debt ceiling is not about new spending, but about money we have already spent.
The Democrats do need to get the business community to put pressure on the congress to raise the debt ceiling because it will hurt business all over the world. We the people must also pressure our elected officials to stop playing games. I personally am getting very tire of having to write and call my congressman who is one of those right wing idiots, mostly because he won't listen. Since I did not vote for him, I do not have much leverage, but I may have to write to our local newspaper. That is all a lot of trouble; I just wish they would do their jobs!
Wish Obama would give clear examples like "It's paying your credit card bill when it's due and no you can't give back the meal you charged at the restuarant or the vacation you took or the cancer treatment you received that you charged. If you refused to do that...to pay your bill, well now you see what Boehner and others are suggesting".
I'm beginning to think the Mayans didn't think the world would end on Dec. 21 of 2012 but sometime during the year so why bother with another calendar. These republicans will blunder their way into it just so they can pound their chests. Only we will all suffer from their stupidity. Such drama is just political grandstanding.
Can't believe people give credence to anything from Politico...a Bush-con liter box.
Will House Republicans listen to Wall Street?
Will House Republicans listen to Senate Republicans?
Will House Republicans listen to Main Street?
Will House Republicans listen to the Tea Party Republicans?
#5 Neil C
The one who pays the piper calls the tune.
Do the names of the Koch brothers ring a bell? They fund the T-party. They call the tune.
Watch the House Republicans dance!
House Republicans will listen to the people who put them in office, and maybe to the people who can get them replaced.
High on both lists? Grover Norquist. Fox News. Rush Limbaugh. Assorted radical preachers.
Actual businessmen in their districts? Not particularly.
DC Sessions: #5.2
Under the "SAD BUT TRUE" factoids, I present the little known factoid that these House GOP obstructionists, these evil, ignorant, hateful men and women, are firmly ensconced in the House law making body until 2020.
Firmly in place and immune to public opinion. Couldn't care less what the normal, sane people of America want or NEED.
I don't know about you, but that makes me want to leave the country.
The GOP 'underpants gnomes' have no original ideas. Their tried and true business plan is a disaster for America and a windfall for the few. Stealing the wealth of our country to give to the rich is a no-win since the rich care no more for their stooges than the GOP care about the religious right.
Good henchmen are so hard to find these days
In the article, McConnell used the same tired talking point, saying that this was all to rein in spending, and that the debt ceiling was to stop future spending. By this time, even the dimmest of the dim should understand that this is all about paying the bills that have already come due for spending that Congress has already approved, going back many, many decades. It's not just the Obama debt---its the George W. Bush debt, the Clinton debt, the George H.W. Bush debt, the Reagan debt, the Carter debt......take it back as far as you like. This is spending by Presidents and Congresses of both parties, paying for wars, social programs, infrastructure, education and more. I can't retroactively decide to stop paying for debts I obligated myself to in the past, from my mortgage to car loan to student loan. That is precisely what the repubs are proposing right now. They are willing to default on those bills in order to rein in spending in the future. If we all decided to default on our bills to teach us to not spend in the future, would that be ok with the repubs? How about Wall Street, or the banks, or businesses?
Not to mention raise interest rates on the loans we take out, thereby increasing our debt obligations. You can't argue with crazy though.
The dimmest of the dim understand no such thing, as thair talk radio shows and cable news network have been telling them the EXACT OPPOSITE for the past four years.
These people aren't dim; they're willfully ignorant. There's a difference. Obama, as well as the mainstream media (including Politico), need to recognize and address it.
Civil War by accounting.
We, the Progressives, win this and when we demand reparations we don't back off.
"...to force President Barack Obama to finally cut spending by the end of March."
"Finally"? But... what about all the spending Obama has already cut, as Steve has meticulously documented on several occasions?
More crap journalism from Politico - a lede that isn't supported by the story that it leads.
Just what I was going to write. Between what we've already saved and what is anticipated we save via the ACA, we've already cut back by TRILLIONS. You can argue (or not) that we can do more. What you can't do is argue we haven't done ANYTHING, which is what this Politico hack is doing.
You left out the fact that every time lots of spending cuts other than entitlement and social safety net programs have been put forward the Republicans have either said "No" or ignored them.
This isn't about spending, debt, or deficits this is about privatizing all of those functions of government
Politico is proving once again to be the go-to to anyone willing to give Republican obstructionism any credibility. They, like conservative talk radio, gain from the obstruction.
Hubris will cause the destruction of the GOP. If they destroy the economy, the Republican Party signs its own death warrant.
BUT they end up taking us and the rest of the world down with them. I'd say that sounds a lot like Gotterdamerung!
#10.1,
Yes, but how to stop them? They are firmly in place till 2020!!
Public opinion means nothing to them. NOTHING!
GOP 2nd Amendment self-remedies shall not be infringed.
The gullible groupies of the GOP will eat this stuff up because they think it's real. Votes will carefully be calculated so as to "give a message", but the President will win in the end. Great theater, poor governing.
Talk about the nuclear option. Republicans are ready to blow up the world.
I say let em! The house is trying to pull the president into a fight, that constitutionally, is not the president's to have or to take. When he does the State of the Union, he really needs to give them Constitution 101 and tell them "The Founding Fathers decided that management and spending is to be the job of elected representatives - not the Presidents! Do your job!And if you decide to shut down the Government - you can go to all the countries that money has been borrowed from and explain to them WHY they won't be paid and you can do it own your own dime - which wasn't yours in the first place! Then you can explain to the American people WHY you have decided that they don't need to get any of their money back though you are happy to take theirs while you sit on your a$$es doing nothing!"
Yep. Put the Fear of The World Markets into them. Unfortunately, the President's backbone seems to have limbered up again, so it probably won't happen. On the other hand, he could say to the house and senate what he said to Mitt Romney when Mitt was hanging himself over Bengazi - "Please continue, congress. Please continue."
What leads you to believe that Obama has any clue about the Constitution? Obama launched a war in Libya without even the almost-constitutional fig leaf of a congressional authorization vote, he granted to himself a new presidential authority to kill citizens and non-citizens alike, both on U.S. soil and abroad, while asserting that an Oval Office discussion with advisers qualifies as constitutional due process.
The man uses the Constitution as toilet paper
You mean, other than the fact that he was a constitutional scholar at Harvard? Bush launched a war (two wars) based upon an "authorization", which empowered him to seek a solution to the problem of Iraq. Which he then used, without further ado, to start a war. Libya was a no fly zone, enforced by the US and several other European countries. If you don't like the "fig leaf of a congressional authorization vote", I wonder where you were in 2003? Bush used the Constitution like toilet paper. Who passed the Patriot Act? Who authorized torture and indefinite detention in Guantanamo? Who found Saddam Hussein, and then promptly turned him over to the mob, who hanged him? Who started a war with Iraq without a congressional declaration of war? Who bears the responsibility of 6000 dead Americans and 500,000 dead Iraqis?
How about saving your sanctimonious cr*p for something like Red State or the Drudge Report?
Well, John Jac, many religious right uses the bible like toilet paper too. But the constitution is quite clear about who does what when it comes to menetary budgeting. The president has nothing to do with it. I guess you would like to see him circumvent house and senate responsibility so you can crow about him becoming a dictator? I guess you'll be fine with another downgrade in the US credit rating and all the foreseen and unforseen effects it might have on you and your family members. You may be a proud American - but what allows that pride to flourish is the fact that our US elected officials actually do thier job as laid out by wiser minds that lived 240 years ago. Which means, paying our bills. You may be outraged by the skirmishes and wars that our presidents authorize from time to time, but that does not invalidate the house responsibility.
They are not, I repeat, not, going to allow him to raise the debt ceiling and that will be tragic for the country.
"If I can not cut the deficit in half, I will be a one term president!" Says our dear President.?
Screw me once, shame on you, screw me twice, shame on me. Wake up America neither side of the isle has any intention too cut spending.
Why is it Lefty morons are so much more embarrassing than righty morons?
TC- do you really think this is a lefty moron? I haven't seen him do anything but attack Obama and praise Bush for months. In his comment at #15, he fails to understand the meaning of the sentence. Obama felt that he would only be elected to one term if he couldn't cut the deficit in half, not promising to leave. Given the immense opposition by both the Senate and the House, and the fact that they never proposed one jobs bill in four years, it's not surprising that the voters gave him another chance.
They always spell "too" wrong too.. two for too, to for two, tootoo for tutu.. The list is tue long..
You are right, Trollop. And it is to bad! I, two, see the problem.
The list is two long too go into. :)
Can someone explain to me why there's all this focus on the debt ceiling which is, as has been said but not enough, past debts coming due and not more on the sequester, which has a whole host of specific cuts coming. Doesn't that seem to be the more fruitful way to look at future spending?
If the Republicans choose to let the United States default on its debt and continue to be obstructionist. Send in the Justice Department and arrest them for treason. They are nothing but trouble. They add nothing and try to take away everything.
The problem is the Debt, Obama needs to take ownership of his share of the debt and make drastic cuts too reduce future debt. Lets not forget that this is a man that campaigned on the grounds of reducing the national debt!
Why do BOTH SIDES refuse to hold their leadership accountable for broken promises, be part of the solution, not part of the problem, swallow your pride and demand the results you were promised when you went to the voting booth!
john . . . Exactly what SPECIFIC cuts do you propose? Which cuts do you believe the Republicans are willing to propose, knowing that they'll have to run on those in 2014 and beyond.
If Republicans are so bent on cutting SS and Medicare, let them propose the extent of the benefit reductions they want to see. If they're not willing to do that, then they're not serious about cutting these programs.
Well how about foreign aid for one? We are borrowing money so we can GIVE it to other counties.
Oh and trust me I do NOT align myself with the republican party, I think both sides share an equal part of the blame.
Go back to whatever rock you crawled out from under, moron.
John- do you have any idea how much foreign aid we give out? Less than .05% of our budget is foreign aid. In addition, that includes all of our aid to Israel, as well as humanitarian aid to Africa. Ready to cut off all that money to Israel?
The problem is not the national debt, it's jobs. Obama campaigned on jobs. Right now we can borrow money at virtually no cost other than the principal. That money is needed to invest in job creation, not deficit reduction. Obama's budget this year was 1.1 trillion, down from 1.4 trillion under Bush. He's already cut 2.4 trillion. What have the Republicans done?
And how would YOU suggest making your legislators act responsibly and follow your wishes? Hold a gun to their heads? Take their children as hostages? Burn down their houses? In other words, you haven't got squat.
Take TC's advice. Your rock is waiting for you.
How about cutting the biggest waste in the budget, the Pentagon? For example, the F-35 program has so far eaten up $396 billion since its inception in 2001. Know how many of them are operational right now? ZERO, and that is unlikely to change any time soon. They still are missing software for the plane, the radar doesn't work, the weapon bay doors don't work, the helmet that displays flight information doesn't exist, the fuselage on one model has numerous cracks, the lift fans for the vertical takeoff version don't exist, the targeting links for the B-version don't work....the list goes on and on. The money spent so far would fully fund NASA for 25 years, folks. I truly hope the sequester happens, as I think it is the only way we will see meaningful cuts in DoD. I'm tired of weapons systems that are overpriced and underperform, even when they are years late to production.
Yes and my brother says that there are quite a few military bases and establishments in other countries that could be shut down without harming us. There really isn't any grounds for our military to be stationed in other countries.
Uffdaguy and jontara, #17.7
If only the Republicans could see what we so clearly see: an outdated, obsolete, bloated defence budget. Oh..........wait.................they're getting paid big money by the defence lobbyists NOT to see what is clearly true! It's not a sacred cow, the military budget, it's a money tit for the congress!
Nothing will ever get done to reduce spending until money is taken out of the equation.
We can hope for the second coming....that's about it.
Once again, our nonconfrontational president hamstrings himself by taking potential options of the table. By eliminating the $1 trillion coin and the use of the 14th Amendment, he has put himself in a position where he will be forced to make significant concessions. These are likely to include substantial cuts to SS and Medicare benefits.
When is he going to learn that the Republicans don't bargain in good faith? It would be one thing if they were sincerely interested in solving problems. They aren't. Their goals are to 1) destroy the Democrats; and 2) to destroy the public sector, regardless of the cost to society.
Until Obama sees the lack of symmetry here, we're in lots of trouble.
Honestly, I think that Obama is willing to call the Republican's bluff and risk default. To me, the real question is how much does Boehner want this? He may be forced to send the debt limit increase to the floor. It would likely get just enough Republican votes to pass, but would mean that Boehner would have to show some balls and go against the majority of his caucus.
they should run on their cuts to the social safety net. if they win....we'll talk about it in 2014.
these GOP politicians who oppose the raising the debt ceiling and oppose raising taxes are the same type of politicians who started the civil war. Their opinion is if I can't have my way 100% I would rather have every man woman and child in my district 6 feet under fighting for it. We need to cut the pay to congress by 50% and no automatic pensions for them. That would save the american public over 70 million a year,700 million in 10 years as the politicians would say,and make political bribery a class a felony with a 25 to life sentance.if people knew how many politicians have been convicted of bribery in the last decade it would make their head spin, and thats just the ones who have been caught.
Since the vast majority of Republicans in the House and their rich clients were not adversely affected by the September, 2008 economic meltdown, they figure they can risk another one with the same results? Moody's let them get away easy the after Cantor's temper tantrum just a year ago last summer. I'm thinking the irresponsible gamblers have learned nothing from their earlier TARP situation.
There will be no more bailouts.
And there will be *ell to pay if the GOP sinks the country back into recession for its candidates in 2014 and for their wealthy enablers as well. The tipping point has come. The Silent Majority has had enough of this irresponsible gamesmanship by those who have isolated themselves from the sacrifices and sufferings the rest of us in the 99% have not.
Better to Reign in Hell than to Serve in Heaven (or Earth)?
Of course the GOP doesn't mind shutting down, working less, or trashing the nation's credit rating on bills that Congress has already approved. The House GOP has no wish to govern.
People like Marsha Blackburn Michelle Bachmann or Eric Cantor would just as soon have the electorate hate the government as much as they do. The House GOP entered public service (for lack of a better description) with an unshakeable conviction (and a desire to prove this conviction) that government can never be a force for good or positive change. So it is against their raison d'être to achieve anything positive under the Obama administration. Their sole aim is to shut down all programs, shut down the government, starve it so it cannot do anything, including regulate the banks, the oil companies, etc. If they could they'd burn it down. Or in Norquist's classy, disturbing imagery, "drown it in the bathtub." One wonders how many sociopaths can be elected by the Tea Party?
One cannot be trusted to govern whose sole reason for public service is to trash governance itself and prove the utter failure of the federal government to serve the nation. The GOP's actions are the result of a unique, destructive conflict of interest. They have literally come to DC to "work" three days a week doing as little as possible and making certain no one else can accomplish anthing productive as well. So as long as they are allowed by the electorate they will only contiue collecting their paychecks, enjoying their government run healtcare, filibustering themselves, blocking as many bills as possible, and, of course, raising cash.
#23,
Yeah, and we pay these as#$oles to screw us. Isn't the end of Democracy fun!
And the worst of them are firmly ensconced till 2020!