House Chaplain Rev. Patrick Conroy
First up from the God Machine this week is an interesting controversy involving the chaplains for the U.S. House and U.S. Senate -- two religious leaders, whose salaries are paid by taxpayers.
Ordinarily, the congressional chaplains are rarely noteworthy. They deliver a prayer at the start of legislative sessions, but otherwise, are generally neither seen nor heard outside Capitol Hill. (James Madison insisted these positions are unconstitutional and should not exist.)
But this week, the chaplains raised questions about how they intend to spend Inauguration Day, in a story first brought to my attention by Faithful America.
Just before President Barack Obama's swearing in on Monday, a group of religious conservatives plans to hold a prayer breakfast featuring a number of anti-Obama conspiracy theorists. The Presidential Inaugural Prayer Breakfast -- billed as offering "prayer, worship, and reconciliation of the nation" -- will feature the editor of the birther site WorldNetDaily and minister and media mogul Pat Robertson, according its website. The organizers of the prayer breakfast also claim the House and Senate chaplains will speak at their event -- appearances that may conflict with the non-partisan nature of the chaplain job.
House Chaplain Rev. Patrick Conroy and Senate Chaplain Barry Black ... are listed under the "Prayer for the Nation" portion of Monday's event, just ahead of Rep. Michele Bachmann (R-Minn.) and Sen. Roy Blunt (R-Mo.). But featured speaker Joseph Farah, the WorldNetDaily editor, has drawn the most attention, given his website's regular assertions that President Obama was actually born in Kenya and allegations that he is "the first Muslim president." The event also features "messianic rabbi-pastor and author" Jonathan Cahn, who believes that there are signs of the apocalypse encrypted in Obama's communications.
As the week progressed, the story got a little strange. Right-wing organizers of the event said the Senate's Rev. Black, who's run into trouble like this before, had accepted their invitation, but the chaplain's office insisted he'd never agreed to participate. The House's Rev. Conroy, who's also billed as a member of the Presidential Inaugural Prayer Breakfast Committee, conceded that he will appear alongside the fringe activists and far-right lawmakers, but added he doesn't intend to "stay too long."
To be sure, if Bachmann, Birthers, and radical televangelists want to get together to hold a far-right event on Inauguration Day, that's their business. But as my friend Rob Boston at Americans United for Separation of Church and State explained, when taxpayer-financed chaplains, who are not supposed to take sides in political fights, participate in events like these, it's far more problematic.
Also from the God Machine this week:
* The benediction at President Obama's second inaugural will be delivered by the Rev. Luis Leon, pastor of St. John's Episcopal Church, dubbed "the church of presidents" because it's just a block and a half from the White House.
* Oh my: "The pastor of St. Aloysius Church in Springfield, Ill., has been granted a leave of absence after he called 911 in November from inside the church and told a police dispatcher that he needed help getting out of a pair of handcuffs." The priest, Tom Donovan, told the 911 operator he was "playing with" the handcuffs, and needed help "getting out." Donovan is perhaps best known for testifying to the Illinois legislature earlier this month in opposition to marriage equality (thanks to reader R.P. for the tip).
* Lawrence Wright has published a new book on Scientology which appears to be generating quite a bit of attention.
* A group of prominent evangelical leaders, including the National Association of Evangelicals and the public-policy arm of the Southern Baptist Convention, have launched the "I Was a Stranger" campaign in the hopes of encouraging policymakers in Washington to pass immigration reform.
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And these guys have tax-exempt status also, I assume. Why?
Well, that's the rub. (no pun intended)
There appears to be a difference between political activities and lobbying for organizations designated 501(c)(3).
I assume perpetuating the birther nonsense under God's name really counts more as lobbying than political activity, since there's no basis of evidence or no stone left unturned to require activity.
This is just a hate breakfast on Inauguration Day.
Insanity has its benefits , and while crime does not pay we pay for the comfortable disposition of the fire breathing sociopaths , which is a crime .
Regarding the priest in Springfield who was just "playing" with the handcuffs, here are more details: "As detailed in a Springfield Police Department report, when officers arrived at St. Aloysius Church at 4:45 AM on November 28, they found the priest wearing an orange jumpsuit and a “leather bondage type mask with bar in his mouth.” He was also handcuffed behind his back." -----Apparently he put on the handcuffs upside down, so he couldn't unlock them as he usually did. I was raised Catholic but I never imagined that the priests were so creative during their "off duty" hours.
Thus, the "medical emergency". You obviously weren't raised "Catholic"/Catholic! Another tale in the tome of the lonely hypocrite.
My wife worked as a hotel maid to get through college. She tells some really funny stories of the things she found under beds and between mattresses when religious groups stayed at the hotel. All kinds if interesting sex toys came out of preist and ministers' rooms.
Don't let them tell you they are pious. They are just more repressed at home than on the road.
It's a well known fact that when conservative organizations are having conventions in a hotel, the most-used channels are for porn (also for the shortest time each time).
So, how did he call 911, or give them any information?...
His 'playmate' left him in that state deliberately, then called 911 to make SURE that he would be found in that state, before his 'brethren' pastors could rescue him...
I don't know if it's been mentioned already, but "Faithful America" has an online petition, asking these gentlemen not to participate in this right-wing prayer breakfast. Faithful America appears to be a group of People of Faith who are trying to push back against the far right's attack on the separation of church and state. Check them out. I will, too.
Angela,
Thanks. I happen to be a firm believer in the separation of church and state. I do not even believe Obama should take his oath on the Bible but the constitution!
I am also a firm believer in God. This is not an exclusively Christian country, and the Bible shouldn't be brought into the political arena. It is offensive to non-Christians, and has no reason to be there in our government. Our country has evolved a great deal in many ways. This is 2013, not 1775.
I understand it is tradition. But so was slavery, for many years.
They need to change their GOD cos apparently the present one has either gone deaf or doesn't care 'bout them anymore! they freaking prayed & fasted for 4yrs and yet...Nothing! smh
I read about a study that concluded these APOCALYPTIC types only get MORE radical if their prophecies are not fulfilled in the timely fashion they predict they will , they just make up yet another excuse and become even more fevered about the matters
Considering the massive failure of their agenda this last election , I would imagine they will be getting even more radical ...... then maybe america will decide its time to put the extremists in their place finally ?
Um ... public prayer? I think some guy named Jesus said we should 'go to that secret place' to pray. I'm sure I read it in a Book.
And whenever you pray,do not be like the hypocrites; for they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and at the street corners, so that they may be seen by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward. But whenever you pray, go into your room and shut the door and pray to your Father who is in secret; and your Father who sees in secret will eward you. Matthew, Chapter 6, verses 5-6.
I think it proper to take note of the rare intersection of the holiday of Martin Luther King day and a Presidential Inauguration. And that this intersection comes after the re-election of America's first non white president. We have not erased racial division- not by any stretch of the imagination, but progressives did unite to show that 2008 was no fluke.
Proper recognition should be given to the role of faith in social action. The plantation owners had a sincere desire to spread their faith but had the ulterior motive of using religion as an opiate- that it would satisfy the desire for serenity and escape. The problem was that the First Great Awakening preachers who converted Blacks in the South were agents of the socially dangerous idea that there were God given rights. Converted black slaves in plantation congregations could rise to leadership positions, becoming pastors preaching their own interpretations of scripture. The implications of Moses story of leading enslaved peoples to a promised land was not missed, and soon after the slave revolts of the early 19th century, laws were passed in the south that only white pastors could preach to black congregations.
I realize many here regard religion as a kind of vestigial vein of superstition that is inexorably being stamped out by the steady march of the forces of the Enlightenment. Some, like my brother believe that if religion were wiped from the face of the earth, that it would be single greatest benefit to social progress in the world.
Martin Luther King Jr. and Mahatma Gandhi demonstrated that faith remains a powerful agent of positive change in the world.
Some people seek religion for an escape into a separate reality of serenity in a dark world. John Lennon started the song "Across the Universe" at first because he wanted some escape from the late night chatter of his first wife Cynthia. At first it was a negative song about wondering "Why are you always mouthing off at me?", but it changed to what it is. The Jai Guru Deva Om phrase is highly polysemous in the original sanskrit, but in the Transcendental Meditation context where he picked it up, it was tied to honoring of the guru- it this case the Maharishi Mahesh Yogi. There is danger there- an elevation of the spiritual leader that observes only the bounds of the leader's self control. So the refrain "Nothing's going to change my world" could very well be the sentiment uttered by the Plantation owner. For the those indulging in the cults of personality of the modern day evangelical churches, there are plenty of prayers raised to their leaders, hoping that somehow they will lead them like Moses back to a Ward Cleaver promised Land.
So Fiona Apple did a cover of Lennon's song for the movie Pleasantville. The hero is a proto republican seeking escape from the chaos of his personal world. He wants the serenity of the monotones of black and white, and this is what many seek in right wing churches. In Pleasantville, he comes to realize it is a false promise. His television father- played by actor in Fargo portraying a North Dakota Car salesman who unleashes a series of heinous murders- is troubled by the revolt of his wife. She no longer wants to be the one to always have a martini ready for him, with dinner on the table. She no longer wants to be emotionally shackled in a passionless marriage.
Those that connect with their deep passions unlock a fuller richer spiritual vision of the world, and their skin and clothes are now in color. The black and whiter's view this with confusion, then great alarm, and their monotonic world order is disestablished. The father is baffled about it. He could as well be the GOP baffled by 2008. The Dixiecrats baffled in Selma Alabama when the old order began to break up. A charismatic black man arrives on the scene as if out of no where promising Change. But the old order wanted just to get back to the surface serenity of Pleasantville. So they run Ward Cleaver for President, and are stunned when he does not win in 2012. Don Knotts, an old representative of that world , is the agent to show the hero "Bud" the error of that path. Bud is transported to Pleasantville, where his television father no longer knows what is best when the simplicity is disturbed. The father is profoundly confused by the new freedoms being expressed, and has a conversation with his son in his sort of Birmingham jail cell.
The old order will not have it, and there is a reactionary wave against the "coloreds" who are barred from entering businesses. There is a great riot at the fountain shop whose proprietor has taken up painting with the new found colors.
So here is the Fiona Apple video of the white riot. From a religious view, she could be taking refuge against the chaos of liberalism, or the intended meaning- achieving an inviolable serene distance from the chaos of right wing monochromatic order.
It is an admittedly flu delirium inspired recommendation, but try checking out Pleasantville from Netflix or your preferred vendor. Here's a trailer. It is a lot about Romney, MLK, Obama, faith, serenity, faith and social action.
Bud doesn't go colored until very late in the film. Only after defending his TV mom from the right wing nuts harassing her. He understood he had to help. The spiritual thing to do was to stand up, rather than escape, hoping to find serenity in the private world we barricade ourselves in after work.
I neglected to mention this prescient film was co-produced by Susan and Andy Borowitz. The multiple layers of irony, political, social, racial and religious satire is no accident.
I mostly left out the feminist side of it. Most is overt, but a lot of it is subtle. There was plenty of the nostalgia thing from Reagan to Happy days and a past that never was, but 2010-2012 was so much like a twilight zone resurgence of gender rhetoric we thought was dismissed in the 70s. Like debating the pill or contraception. I can't tell you how many times I have heard sermons about women's "proper" place in the home. In Pleasantville, they keep saying- we know where this all started. The Father, George isn't getting his dinner. Burt, his bowling buddy's shirt is burned. The Mayor stands up in front of the men at bowling night.
But by using the song Across the Universe at the close, it's a double ended knife. John Lennon's wife won't shut the F up. And Lennon wants some avenue of escape.
The reactionaries don't want change from their private paradise. And Lennon's refrain offers that:
It's the pitch the Birmingham preacher's made to King. You know, chill out. The clergymen in their Call for Unity disapproved of the immense tension created by the demonstrations. They wanted things to go back to being pleasant. MLK pointed out that the nonviolent actions were necessary, or social change that his faith required him to insist on would never come about.
Some other notes
As a born again believer, I am opposed to tax exempt status for clergy and churches. The Lord didn't get a break in his taxes. "Render unto Caesar the things that are Caesar's and render unto God the things that are God's." Also, Christians should give without deducting a portion of the giving from their taxes. David said that he would not worship God with that which cost him nothing.
When we take the tax breaks we invite government interference and criticism from the ungodly for whom Christ died, thereby putting the Lord to an open shame. The church in China pays it's taxes and it is flourishing. We should pay our taxes too.
Have you not witnessed the conservative propaganda machine?
If 501(c) were revoked, the taxes then paid would not come out of the cathedral upkeep, the sound system, the choir robes, or the air conditioning/heating budget.
It would come out of whatever was left of the collection plate which went to helping the community. And the churches would publicly bemoan and loudly bewail every penny they could no longer use to help the "little children and the homeless".
I once heard this, "while God paints stunning sunsets, children in Africa are dying of aids". US churches keep their exteriors pretty while their interiors rot.
The churches also have their hands in subsidized social programs , housing , WIC , schooling . The loss of those services would be felt .
All the postings about the inagural religious speakers just imprints the idea that religion and politics should not mix. No matter the religion/ the beliefs - there are priests, rabbis, ministers, etc. who have abused their position. The gov. is there to protect the citizens. Religion gives a person a moral belief - and a way to live their lives. We all can believe what teaching we wish - but do not tell me how to believe. I was raised Catholic and in some ways brainwashed fro several years. In a college ethics class - taught by the priest who wrote the book -we were not allowed to ask questions. Nor did the teacher explain why his teachings were the way it should be. If a teaching is unexplainable - how can someone be expected to just blindly accept it? I do not go to any church now - but I have a strong moral code that I live by. Religion is individual - not political.
Madison was right. Having paid chaplains in congress is state sponsored religion. Unconstitutional right off the bat.
The chaplains are fine as long as they're ecumenical. Once they take political sides they should be fired and shown the door.
I have no respect for them or their actions as their actions belie the purpose of their office.
They lead prayers that they obviously don't mean or feel. That pretty much is grounds for discharge on most performance evaluations.
Religion keeps the masses scared, the religious leaders in power, and rich people laughing all the way to the bank. We don't save ourselves because we're told some outside deity will do it.
A silent planet will finally prove the lie...
The public is responsible for keeping frauds and our dear corrupt leaders in fear . That is our job , and we could use a stronger invective .
One would think the planet heating up would provide the impetus...however, there seems to be more pressing issues currently, like wringing our hands over the debt ceiling every few months.
I wonder how much prayer it will take to lower the CO2 content of our atmosphere?
It is interesting to note that the Church started as a Conciliar goup. The apostles would gather and decide. As the apostles would die, their successors, the Bishops would gather. From Constantine through the promulgation of papal infallibility, power would be consolidated in the Patriarchate of Rome. The state of the Church in these times speaks of individuals who misuse their office. For men and women who speak of and declare prophecy or truth, it is especially disheartening. Any person who would by their presence proclaim a message for the radical right should be directly asked where they find those positions in the wisdom of the Gospels. If it doesn't quite fit in with forgiveness, turning the other cheek, or charity, then the message is a false one.
Go look at the Roman State Religion (Julius Caesar's most important elected office in his rise to power was Pontifex Maximus, head of the State Religion) and then look at the organization of the Catholic Church - almost a complete ripoff.
TC,
When Constantine the Great and his sons made Christianity the official state religion of the Empire, the Church adopted the paraphernalia of the State Religion of Rome. This helped spread the religion, for people accept change more readily if it is more familiar. On the part of the Christian leadership this was a means to save millions from pagan and heretical superstition, and on the part of the Imperial leadership it was a means to unite the Empire through a single faith. Both these goals were viewed as marked improvements over the violence and strife of the religiously fragmented Empire of the day.
So, it was not really a 'rip-off', for the Bishop of Rome was the Pontifex Maximus of the western Roman state for over 100 years (when there was a western Roman state -- late Imperial history was pretty chaotic).
Christanity lost me when they substituted Dogma for compassion. Am now a happy and compassionate Atheist.
It is true. Some have taken the Jesus right out of Christianity. The Son of Man is being held hostage as far as I'm concerned.
Jesus and our Founding Fathers wouldn't recognize a lot of what is going on in this country as either Christian or democracy or even civilized.
sandyh, #37.1
You said it. And you said it well!
I'm sorry, but my karma just ran over your dogma...
I'll be honest. Janice Reitman's Inside Scientology from a couple of years ago was better. Stick with Wright's long article in The New Yorker on Haggis for the best stuff ("The Apostate').
I suspect the problem arises when some begin to accept the truth of myths as actual literal fact. These myths share universal themes from one civilization to another thru the millennia. I don't think we should characterize all those millions as weak-minded just because we don't agree with their interpretations.
Ms. Joy, please excuse this long winded reply but I found your post interesting.
Civilizations share themes because the human experience is common from one civilization to another. It's the differences that are significant, what the layers of culture and environment do to individualize what should be a divine belief system.
Take the main point of the Bible, the promotion of a hell beyond death if we aren't saved. A great mind-manipulation, hell, and it prevents a rational acceptance of the natural event of death. Where could such information come from? God?
How about the rational explanation of early peoples trying to make sense of volcanic activity in the Sinai desert? I've read that interpretations of these events grew through oral history into a hellish underworld for those who sinned against Israel's god. Certainly, such an avenue of punishment had to be incorporated into the growing collection of actual and mythical desert stories passed down through the ages. Legends-turned-history solidified into a belief system Israel could use to save their people and lands; not unusual, stories depicting their god as stronger and more battle-savy than the gods of their enemies was the order of the day, and to a lesser extend, still is.
Even though we now know what a volcano actually is, and the creation of a god in the middle of early human history kinda refutes his existence, we can't be rid of the myth of hell and the masterpiece of brainwashing that centers on Israel's self-preservation because our society is saturated with it.
But then there is the Koran, and the Catholic Bible, and Buddhism/Hinduism/Taoism, etc all created for the same purposes, explanation of events, protection from enemies, answers to the big questions, divine intervention, etc. The lack of a universal god-inspired book to all people, not just Israel, should lead strong minded humans to obvious conclusions. Instead, humans choose to ignore the evidence to continue in this need for a daddy figure in the sky who'll take care of us. How else to label it?
Funny, isn't it, I find it so much harder, from both a philosophic and scientific perspective, to disbelieve in God.
I am not looking for a daddy in the sky, either, when I say that. I just came to believe that the evidence was stronger in favour of the existence of a God, (mainly from the Kalam argument for the existence). But, having heard them all, I came to believe they proved the existence, rather than the reverse.
Ex nihilo nihil says it for me.
How about this "goldilocks" planet we are on! Random chance? No way! So many things had to go exactly right for our being here that the zeros would overrun the computer if I presented the odds against it.
The apocalyptic theme running throughout the Abrahamic "faiths" is almost as absurd as it is central . It is hard to measure the sales value of poetic , and biblical suffering with the guess work involved in assessing accumulated wealth over the ages .
Triumphalism from the long suffering Jews at the collapse of the Roman and Byzantium period is probably well regarded as pitiful . With the more direct triumphalism of the ascendent Muslim Caliphate we have the , is , was , and should be entirely predictable collation of "prophetic" events indicating the coming of Muslim heaven , and non Muslim , i.e. , Roman government and Christian hell in their relative collapse . Absurd as it borrows a feature from the earlier original mysticism , without the clever updating they employ socially , politically , and economically . So we are stuck with a paternal nomadic tribal appreciation of wildly reported events that could clearly be understood , and indexed . Reflecting from a routinely prophylactic posture including a composure that takes the energy from the vehicle of Abrahamic success , fear . All that would necessarily be missing is the big "BOO !" at the incidental climaxes .
Of course I suppose the cheering crowds imagining their own troubles being eased with the commonplace exercise of brutality against the scapegraces du jour , with their colorful obscenities crowing over the writhing husks of innumerable victims will be sorely missed . So it goes ...
India,
Just to be clear, I personally neither believe or disbelieve in a supernatural creator of the universe. The rational arguments for improving our personal behavior are compelling enough that I do not see a need for a divine moral reward system. In other words, we should all follow the Law of the Prophets (aka the Golden Rule), and until we manage that the rest of theology is just so much fluff.
Just my opinion, but when it comes down to it that is all any of us has, isn't it? (And since we are all human, it is always wrong, but that is a different discussion.)
In reference to you argument concerning our 'goldilocks planet', the fact that biosphere of this planet (including the human race) is a intricate match for the conditions on the planet is a much stronger argument for biological evolution than for a supreme being. This is especially true when one considers how the biosphere has altered conditions on the planet over the eons to reach a stable equilibrium which is regulated by the very organisms benefiting from the conditions.
If the Earth had been somewhat hotter or colder, life would have adapted. If the Earth had been a bit bigger, life would have adapted to higher gravity. If we find life on another planet or moon of a gas giant (such as Europa), life there will be well adapted to the conditions there and any intelligence there view our world as a blue and green Hell.
I find it hard to disbelieve in God because I've been mind-washed with it since childhood.
Losing my religion has disturbed me greatly. I'm caught between the safety of faith and the honesty of acknowledging that the precious few years we each are given are all we're given. But honesty is always the better choice and it's consistently the harder choice. Leaving the co-dependency of religion behind is the road humanity has to travel if we're to continue advancing as a species.
I no longer feel enough of us can break those safe chains, thus, we trundle toward the needless self-fulfillment of a compiled book of superstitions called Revelations. I grieve at the loss of such potential as the human race might have had. I grieve that we don't have a god.
Respectfully...
I've found that the more I watch The Science Channel, the more convinced I am that there is no God. I am further convinced that magical fairy tales we tell ourselves is harmful to society and indeed the world.
If you're not sure of this, you may find the following 43 minute video the most illuminating thing you have ever seen.
How The Universe Works - The Birth of the Earth.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_kIb4Q_RPZc
Think how perfect the earth is, Alva, for the life on it to flourish! So it took a while, and came into being a certain scientific way. That says there's no creator? Not to me. I watch the science channel, too, and know what the earth looked like when it was a big snowball.
So? Perhaps you'd have done it differently? Bypassed a few billion essential years? Maybe that was the only way! Maybe "Poof, here's an Earth with life teeming on it" is impossible even for God.
Not even God can do the intrinsically impossible.
Perhaps, India. Or perhaps the only way for matter to transform into organic material capable of conscious thought, and pondering the likelihood of it's own existence is for it to happen on a planet that is rich with life.
The more I study this, the more I understand the scientific principles by which it happened. That means that I understand how the universe came to be naturally, meaning that it leaves little room for an outside causing agent.
There's a lot of cliche questions now when it comes to theological debates, but, if you use God as the causal agent, it I think that it's important to ask who or what created God. If God didn't have a creator, than why is it plausible that a deity exists?
It seems to me that life is incredibly rare in the universe. And if I were designing a universe, with the purpose of creating and harboring the conditions that permit life to exist, then I would have made it a lot more likely to happen than it does.
Neil DeGrasse Tyson said that the most beautiful scientific principle is E=MC2. That it means that essentially energy is matter, and matter is energy, and they can transform into each other under the right circumstances. I suspect that life is just something matter transforms into under the right circumstances. And if that's the case, then where's the room for God?
Alva, To ask "who created God?" is a "category fallacy" in logic. I will try, in my limited way, to explain why. You have a universe which exists and did not always exist. It had a beginning and a design. It is heading toward an end. The second law of thermodynamics says so.
It had to have been created by a Creator outside of time and space. That Creator does not live in the space-time continuum, and time began with the creation of the universe. Since we know that nothing comes from nothing, we know that something caused the universe to begin. We can extrapolate that the Creator had free will as He chose to create it. Since we cannot treat "nothing" as "something", we must assume that this Creator was a first, uncaused cause, having existence that came from nowhere else. It is existence, or being, and is the cause of other existence.
And with that, I am turning in. Goodnight.
India,
Yes, a creator of the universe (which includes both space and time) would have to exist outside the universe, meaning a creator would be above both space and time. This means a creator or creators must be beyond the scope of observation and rational thought, subject only to faith.
The problem for most comes when we contemplate the creator interacting with the creation. For example, a perfect moral code originating from a creator would (by our current understanding) forbid slavery, yet the Patriarch Abraham owned and apparently procreated with slaves.
Has a creator given us a perfect and therefore unchanging moral code? Or has our understanding of morality evolved over time, independent of any contact by supernatural beings?
John, #40.5
What an interesting question! I am on my way out the door, almost, but I am going to give that some thought. I will try to get back to you.
I want to say that both are true; we were given a universal moral code (The Absolute Moral Law) and when the historical Jesus entered creation, he did elaborate on the idea of "love your neighbour as yourself", the foundation for Christian belief about how to treat others. Clearly we must love others as ourselves, for we can be self critical and still "love"ourselves. That is an important point. (IMO).
Did the "historical" Jesus change or enhance the moral law? I think He made it clearer, and I think in the millenia since His life on earth, I could say we have evolved as a people into a more perfect understanding of what He taught.
Do we need further evolution? Uh huh. Do we need to practice what He taught us. Uh Huh. Oh yeah..
I will think about this. I am not satisfied with that answer.
RE: India #40.3
The problem here is that you're trying to use logic to explain the creation of the universe, when the science you should be focusing on is cosmology. There's a lot of aspects of quantum physics that seems to defy logic as well.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tu57B1v0SzI
You are right that the universe didn't always exist. You're right that some event would have to have happened in order to trigger the creation of the universe. However, I think you're discarding that the universe could have (and likely) came into existence via natural processes.
I have a book to recommend to you. It's called A Universe From Nothing by Lawerence Krauss.
http://www.amazon.com/dp/1451624468
This presentation Krauss did on the subject I found more enjoyable than reading the book.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-EilZ4VY5Vs
Going into this material a bit, after WW2, American scientists started doing a lot of experiments with vacuums. This was related to vacuum tubes used in electronics, which predated the transistor.
Regardless, one particular experiment used a box and the air was vacuumed out of it. The experiment then measured very accurately the electrical charge inside the box.
In theory, if you created a perfect vacuum, you would have zero particles left inside the box. So the electrical charge should remain at zero. However, they found that every once in a while the box would emit a very tiny discharge.
We now know why that happened. It seems that a perfect vacuum is unstable. That what was happening was that inside the box, particles were popping into existence from nothing. Why didn't the box quickly fill up with particles and cease to be a vacuum? Because a particle of matter would pop into existence, and a particle of anti-matter would also pop into existence, and then they would quickly cancel each other out, destroying one another and releasing a small charge.
In other words, the universe could have come into existence naturally. No deity required. And if no deity is required, then what is the likelihood that deity exists?
India,
The problem is that the historic record of God, as given to us by prophets from the dim dawn of history to the present day, is an ever-changing set of standards relating to slaves, women, children, and portions of our species that happen to be in another tribe. Even Jesus of Nazareth did not label slavery as the evil we know it to be today.
What is the evidence of an all-powerful, kind, and loving God, as opposed to God-the-child-with-an-ant-farm? The fact that the slavery loving (or at least tolerant) prophets tell us so?
Alva,
The basic conundrum is that whatever led to the beginning of the universe happened quite literally before the start of time. It is like asking "what is north of the North Pole?"
We cannot apply our rules of time and space to such events, or even use labels such as 'natural' (which implies the existence of nature, meaning the universe).
This is why I am not a theist, an agnostic, or an atheist. I am apathetic -- I do not know and do not care what happened before the dawn of time. It is unknowable.
Alva,
What natural processes could account for the beginning of time and the universe? "Natural" didn't even exist before the universe. Why would I rerad a book built on a fallacy? I like logic, Alva.
A universe from nothing is impossible. Ex nihil nihil. If something could come from nothing, we'd see some evidence of it. We'd see things springing up all over the place, out of nothing.
No one ever has.
No one ever has.
John seeking enlightenment,
Apathetic? Your avatar contradicts that claim. You're too educated for that. Your posts give you away. Apathetic people don't find out all these things you know.
Or...you weren't always apathetic.
Alva,
Particles just don't pop into existence that way. In order to have a "perfect vacuum", wouldn't you already need a space-time continuum for the vacuum to exist in? Also, isn't a vacuum something created by something else?
I'm no physicist, so help me out. I'm just guessing here. What I know about vacuums involves a Hoover.
Alva only God knows! Tee hee! But its way beyond our minute intelligence coming from one small speck of a planet in a universe that we don't even know how big it is. Seems one theory is considered fact one day and debunked the next.
India, I'm no physicist either. You know who is? Lawerence Krauss. Watch that youtube video I linked!
Yes, we have observed particles popping into existence from nothing. Ever heard of the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_fluctuation
You know that space is basically a vacuum, right? Most of space is just space. Nothingness. There's no air. No pressure. Nothing. Just a vacuum. This is why when stars explode and cool after the explosion, giant puff balls of dust trillions of miles wide is what's left over.
http://sb635.mystarband.net/m16_final_color_avg_2_3.jpg
John, the science on this will simply make your brain itch. Have you read what Steven Hawkings has said about black holes? Hawkings has predicted that given the size of the universe, there should be a LOT more black holes then there are. Therefore, blackholes must eventually disappear.
However, it should be noted that blackholes are a mass so dense that it has a gravity so strong that not even light can escape it. So everything in our galaxy will eventually get sucked into a black hole at our galactic center.
So if the conservation of energy means energy can't be destroyed, and since E=MC2 means that energy can turn into matter and vice versa, this means that Hawkings has come up with a contradiction. Black holes suck in all matter in the galaxy, and yet that matter also eventually disappears.
This gets even more complex once you realize that black holes create singularities. Once you reach the edge of a black hole, time itself stops, at least from the perspective of an outside observer. Therefore, mass drags negatively on time. The question isn't what started time. It's that time happens naturally, when the mass of an object is reduced.
So where are all the black holes? One theory suggests that just as black holes suck in matter, they also spit out matter into another dimension. If this is correct, it would explain how black holes can disappear and matter isn't destroyed. The other side of a black hole could be a big bang creating another universe is some other dimension.
India,
I am apathetic concerning the existence of an intelligent creator of the universe. I care about the here and now and how our actions influence the future.
Also, particles and photons do pop in and out of existence in a vacuum. Physicists call this vacuum fluctuations, and it is a consequence of the Uncertainty Principle.
(If you know the exact number of particles and photons in a chamber, you know identically the total energy of the chamber, which you cannot know. So, the number of particles and photons in the chamber must fluctuate about the value you know. If the known value is zero, they must pop into and out of existence, which has been observed.)
Alva,
Black holes are part of the universe and obey the laws of nature. Before the universe, no laws of nature...
John, That is interesting. I always learn something here, and today I have learned something interesting. I did not know that particles pop in and out of existence in a vacuum. Well! The Uncertainty Principle. I must read up on that.
I, too, am concerned about the here and now. I don't like the direction this country is taking.
Have you ever read, The Shock Doctrine, by Naomi Klein? You can pull up a video where she discusses this. I found that book to be very interesting. I actually do not know where you stand politically. She is a Canadian journalist.
The book is about disaster Capitalism and goes into quite a bit about the Bush years. She discusses Milton Friedman and Keynes. Like me, she is a Keynesian.
Now Alva will come on and tell me how wrong Keynes was. LOL
I have to go soon as my cat is trying to climb over me and the computer to tell me it is midnight. He seems to tell time better than most people; a regular alarm clock.
India,
I am familiar with Ms. Klein's work, but have not read The Shock Doctrine. Caring about the here and now, I found the Bush years to be depressing while I lived them and simply cannot bear to consciously relive them. So much of this nation's opportunity, talent and treasure was wasted by a fool and his minions.
India, I'm a Keynesian, but to a point. I'm a Keynesian if we're assuming we have to be a capitalist country. I'm convinced that if we are ever to solve most of our problems, then we have to abolish capitalism. Given what's happening with climate change, capitalism may end up being the most deadly thing mankind has ever invented, and I'm including the atom bomb in that list.
I love Naomi Klein's work. I particularly liked how to outed Milton Friedman for the fascist henchmen that he was. Have you ever seen the film she did called The Take? It was a documentary film about the occupied workplaces movement in Latin America. The largest textile factory south of the Rio Grande is a factory that is run and operated by the workers who vote on workplace decisions democratically!
http://www.amazon.com/The-Take-Naomi-Klein/dp/B000CCD1X4/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1358773069&sr=8-3&keywords=The+Take
Alva, No! I certainly will check that out. I am going to click on that link. Thanks.
Friedman was indeed a fascist henchman. So destructive!
Every time a right-winger gets on here and applauds Friedman, my hair bursts into flame.
Ranks right up there with two Supreme Court Justices attending Tea Party events planned by one of their wives.
wow of all the drug dealers in US he finds a Catholic Priest. Also only one catholic priest as a cross dresser..
No lawyers, Doctors, Rabbi's, Minister, deal drugs, or cross dressers
Interestuing contrast: in America separation of Church and State is practicaly in the Constitution. In practice the two are intermingled to the point of absurdity.
In Canada, separation Of Church and State is nowhere in our Constitution. In practice, we could care less what our polititians religion is or if they have one. They could beChristian (any denomination) Gay, Black, Muslim, , Hindu or Atheists, if they can do the job, we elect them.
Well, that's on two points we differ from you.
What do "Gay" and "Black" have to do with religion?
from TO . . . There are many ways in which I wish our country were more like yours. This is only one of them.
Maybe one of these days we will mature to the point where one adheres to a religion other than Christianity--or, even more importantly, where one does not believe in a supreme being--will no longer be an impediment to election.
Wow, a religious ceremony to vilify the President, how novel, and really really weird,,,???
Did the Obamas participate at all in the Day of Service today, or plan to, over the weekend? Just curious. My wife, I, and our kids (whom are younger than Obama's) all participated today and do every year.
Why is it the self righteous are always so concerned about others attendance to religious events.
Steve Benen (author of this particular blog),
You're right, there's probably no reason to be paying pastors to preside over prayer in the House and Senate. One would think that the tax-cutting Democrat hawks would have stopped this in 2009 or 2010 when they had absolute control over the House, Senate, and White House. What happened and how do they answer to these charges?
Still running that lie mike. Really that has been debunked more times in the last 2 years then you righties posted it.
Right wingers don't pay much attention to history. They like to make it up as they go along. And that's what you should do, Mike, until you're ready to do some research and debate using those little things we on this blog like to call FACTS. So go along. Go. Now.
The precious image of these burly citizen warriors clutching their teacups as a talisman against the hull they have torn apart is a difficult sequence of predictable stupidity and inevitable disaster to shift from ones unconscious gazing . Now bailing the foundering ship of state , or double talking furiously , the iconic teacuppa's , its brawny spine of vapor logic that "powers" the movement have a fundamental series of conundrums to either face , or tire the farce out of us . There should be little doubt how a formidable congregation of "exceptional" knuckleheads will continue their descent . The only argument could be over how or when a timely introduction of obscurity could stand improvement .
Led by a richly compensated lard of lying liars , and the fruit fly flocks of the loud and wrong , they have numbers of both the dumb greed , and its Ponzi acolytes to make a parade at the drop of a debunked lie .
Turning away from the founders of death panel hysterics to zero interest fiscal scolds is easy for a publicly schooled , or educated person . The interest in the drama of bringing humility to the chiding elite , and their perfect records of failure , is as easy to ignore for these icons of god for sale , as the endless rape of innocence both figuratively and literally for the old testament politics of our dear friends on the right and their stout allies in the pulpits .
Giving lip service to the letter of the law without living the spirituality of it...hummm, wasn't there a verse in the Bible about that?
Oh, yes. Matthew 23:23.
If the Priests are paid by us taxpayers then we should be given the right to hire or fire these Priests. How dare they go to a breakfast given by the extreme hard right wackos thereby giving this group credence for what they've been doing. This President is Catholic and by going to this breakfast these Priests should be thrown out of the Church for insulting their Religion and insulting the President. I'd like to know "why?"and what were they told to expect to get in return for going to the breakfast of this loathsome group? I thought the Church was supposed to be nonjudgemental and stay away from Politics to avoid choosing one side over the other. Evidently these Priests never learned this part and are going beyond what I think the Church dictates by siding with one party over another party. These Priests have evidently absorbed Congress's hatred for anything that smacks of President Obama by imbedding themselves in with the enemy. I doubt they were threatened if they didn't attend so "What's the real story behind their attendance at this Breakfast of Hate?". Maybe they were bribed because it's been known to happen, very,very rarely though but being around the dirty players in Congress who can say a definite yes or no. It can't be about taking the limelight away from President Obama because no loyal voter would turn their attention away from the President to watch the breakfast circus.
The Vatican has come out in support of gun control. That's terrific I'm sure they will be coming out in favor of gay marriage and a woman's right to choose any day after 2300 maybe the 2400 or so....
Does it bother anybody at the Maddow Show that you've blatantly ripped this feature off from Harry Shearer and Le Show?
Steve Benen has brought this feature from , The Washington Monthly , thank you .
What bothers me is counting up hallucinations as humiliations , rather than counting on understanding , and trying to find truth .
Thats just me ...
@Rob and FRP...Steve was already doing this feature before he moved to the Washington Monthly at his original site, The Carpetbagger Report
In his very first TWIG post, dated Jan 7, 2006, Steve begins "With a tip of the hat to one of my favorite features of The Daily Show, I thought I'd kick the ol' "God Machine" into gear and highlight some of the more provocative stories of the week from the world of religion."
In his second installment Steve starts by writing "Last week's edition of this idea blatantly stolen ["blatantly stolen" has a line through it] inspired by The Daily Show seemed to be fairly well received, so it's back for another installment. "
http://www.thecarpetbaggerreport.com/archives/6275.html
http://www.thecarpetbaggerreport.com/archives/6337.html
Ah , another adventure through yesteryear .
Nice !
When the history books are written about Barack Obama and his historical presidency, they will indict an enormous segment of our country. Racists and hypocrites all.