How true. Compared to your examples and hundreds of other carpet bombing missions which would kill thousands at a time, the drone strikes are essentially close to surgically accurate. Yes, some innocents die but as you mention tens of thousands died in one night/moment in those incidents you mention. The general public will never get the complete picture of almost all overt and covert operations in this very dangerous world we live in.

bdlrms,

Valid points but there are some major differences.

1) All these countries were legally at war with one another.

2) None of these countries bombed themselves.

3) We are supposed to be a legal society and, while the above are definitely atrocities, we are trying to move forward from these events.

4) As concerns American citizens, where is the due process? In our country, it does not matter how atrocious your crime or how obious your guilt, you are still entitled to due process. If we yield that then we are no better than the above mentioned atrocities and no better than vigilantes.

1) meaningless because today countries do not start wars rather extremists commit acts of terror.

2) no one made such a claim so why bring it up.

3) yet not one peep when GWB incorporated tortured 1,000s.

4) More bs as due process has been set aside a number of times starting with GWB imprisoning people after kidnapping them from their home countries. Not to mention the number of law's against US citizens enacted retro active. So don't try to play leave out facts to make a point you can't make by putting all the facts not just the facts you cherry picked.

whom- appreciate you equating GWB and Obama. Seems as if, as Big Ed mentioned tonight, they are one and the same in more ways than one.

Many liberals are defending Obama with the analogy that he isdoing the same thing as Bush. Just find it interesting.

bdirms, here's a good rule-of-thumb: if you feel the need to gratuitously insult the people who are trying to convince, you are either on the wrong side of the issue or you are simply unable to present a rational argument. Either way, it's a sign you need to shut up and at a minimum learn some manners.

whom,

1) Certainly countries declare war against each other. And if they don't, they should. Otherwise, we need to re-write international law (and our own laws).

2) The point was that, regarding all the bombing during WWII, Germany didn't bomb Germany, neither did Japan bomb Japan. But The US has attacked their own citizens.

3) Just because GWB got away with it doesn't make it right, or OK.

4) All these things you point out about the GWB administration are equally abuses of "Due Process". And it is a travesty that they got away with it. But again, that doesn't right, or OK. The only thing it does is establish precedent. But illegal precedent is still illegal.

So Eddie- do you defend Obama and his plan for targeted selection for assinations?

So I guess there shouldn't even be any kind of vetting for these very high and important postions. Just ask softball questions and rubber stamp their approval. Seriously, what do want these committees - like the Senate Intelligence commitee - to do when someone is being nominated for Director of the Central Intelligence Agency? This type of questioning is part of the committee's job description.

I really do not understand the "outrage" of asking serious questions to the people that may be in charge of these very important agencies/departments.

You know, Skip, it would be good if these Republicans would, indeed, ask serious questions that have something to do with the position. They seem to prefer "gotcha" questions, instead.

Yep- those right winger Code Pink tea baggers interrupting the process of government.

Funny the "Silence of the Lambs" from the Democrats and Liberals

Under President Bush 3 got water-boarded (of which none died) and the left raised the roof, but when 4700 of which over 150 are INNOCENT kids are KILLED the silence is deafening!!!

But certainly when the innocent are "collateral damage they just happened to be at the wrong place at the wrong time)

But of course its O.K. if its President Obama

And they ask why a new generation are hating America

No trials President Obama is the judge, jury and executioneer

So tell us all how you know someone is "innocent"? When a 5 to 10 year old walks up and drops a grenade in your pocket, is that "child" innocent? When a young girl tapes a few pounds of C-4 to their waist, is she innocent? I've seen it all happen. I've lost good friends to that kind of "innocence". Believe it of not, no war is civil, moral or humane. We have targeted "inocent" people in every war we've been in.

If we spent 1/2 as much on "defense" as we do on "offense" we could have a safe country. There is no need for us to stick our nose in other counties business. The middle east has been fighting since the beginning of time and will continue to do so. They are religious wars.

As long as we conitnue to interfere, "inocent" people will die. That's war.

This is a list of names of innocent children killed by America’s drones

But behind each name there is the face of a child with a family history in a village in a far away country, with a mom and a dad, with brothers and sisters and friends.

Among the list, are infants of 1, 2, 3 and 4 years old.

In some cases brothers and sisters of an entire family are killed.

Four sisters of the Ali Mohammed Nasser family in Yemen were killed. Afrah was 9 years old when she and her three younger sisters Zayda (7 years old) , Hoda (5 years old) and Sheika (4 years old) were struck by an American drone.

Ibrahim, a 13 year old boy of the Abdullah Mokbel Salem Louqye family in Yemen was struck by a US drone, together with his younger brother Asmaa (9 years old) and two younger sisters, Salma (4 years old) and Fatima (3 years old)

These children are innocent. They are not different from our own children.

Their lives were taken away at a very young age as part of a military agenda, which claims to be combating “international terrorism”

These drone attacks are extremely precise. We are not dealing with “collateral damage”.

Drone operators have the ability of viewing from a computer screen their targets well in advance of a strike.

A family home is referred to as a “structure” or a “building” rather than a house. When they target a home with family members, they kill children. And they know that in advance of the drone strike:

“Bryant saw a flash on the screen: the explosion. Parts of the building collapsed. The child had disappeared. Bryant had a sick feeling in his stomach.

“Did we just kill a kid?” he asked the man sitting next to him.

“Yeah, I guess that was a kid,” the pilot replied.

These children were killed on the orders of the US President and Commander in Chief Barack H. Obama.

The commander in chief sets the military agenda and authorizes these killings to proceed.

The killings were quite deliberate. They are categorized as “crimes against humanity” under international law.

Those who ordered these drone killings, including the president of the United States, are war criminals under international law and must be indicted and prosecuted

It should be noted that the drone attacks on civilians have increased dramatically during the Obama presidency

Larry- pretty simpleanswer to your question, at least here in the USA. Not surprised you don't know this- I've noticed you seem somewhat light between the ears many times- but to answer your question- They are innocent- only when they are proven guilty are they guilty. Obama will disagree- he is arguing they are guilty by association- and that is enough.

So- Larry- will you argue against the liberals and for Obama- or will you remain a "progressive" and argue against Obama? Big decision for a dude like you- but I predict you would follow Obama wherever he takes you- even if it is opposed to the Left's ideals.

I would have been more than happy to give you an answer if you could possibly make a comment without the insults. But you can't, never have so I won't.

And I also don't believe we have any business in any other country. It's not our war. It's none of our business how they run their country. But until we learn how to mind our own business, which will never happen, I prefer not having soldiers losing live and limbs. War is hell. It is not and will never be "humane". But for those that don't believe we have targeted innocent people. We are the only country that has ever used nukes. 2 of them. How many innocent people were killed? Who do you think our snipers are paid to take out? Who do you think ordered the Mai Lia massacre? (a village of innocent people).

People that have never been in combat feel smug setting in their cozy chair passing judgment. Once you've been there, you might have a change of mind. If you have a conscience.

Larry-I'll give it to you that you are makiing sense on this issue. That is a welcome change. Keep it up.

Larry 74, #8.6

Well said and I totally agree. We need to end these unnecessary wars which are bankrupting our country, morally and financially. These countries in the middle east have been fighting each other for centuries..millennia, and these tribes will be fighting long after we leave. We don't belong in these places. Democracy is not a concept these Muslims can grasp or embrace. Our differences are way too great to find common ground.

Hiroshima and Nagasaki certainly killed more innocent people than any drones ever could. We lost our moral high ground on "collateral damage" decades ago.

Time to put our resources toward building this country and helping our own people.

@nolaughingmatter: The list of those water-boarded was provided by the same people who lied about WMD, right? Yea, I thought so. Secondly, it is firmly established that war detainees have died while under detention for interrogation. At least 2 detainees were allowed to freeze to death in "cold rooms". The cold room treatment was frequently utilized as part of an unapproved CIA practice combining treatments to have a more severe effect on the detainee. Say for instance, start with forced nudity plus cold water blast, then cold room overnight or over the weekend. Wow, -hey what do you know, the next time we checked, the poor bastard was dead. This happened at least twice, and Obama refused to investigate anyone for these deaths.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

After watching the Senate hearings on Brennan's nomination, I got the distinct impression that the GOP is fully behind Obama's drone program and they pointedly want Brennan to withhold all information related to it. They reminded me of Archie Bunker shouting ixnay! at his talkative wife Edith, trying to stop her before she said too much.

But if republicans are behind Obama's secret drone program, then Obama is completing their unfinished agenda started under the Bush Administration. Obama is their man pursuing their agenda.

In regards to Rachel's question from the other day ~"How much evidence does Obama need before he decides to target an American Citizen for death?" The answer is exactly the same amount of evidence GW Bush needed to invade Iraq. Nothing. At least no real evidence. This much is already established by the aftermath of the war in Iraq, -a war which killed 5000 Americans and hundreds of thousands of Iraqis. As a substitute for real evidence, a couple of emphatically stated lies like Bush's claims of WMD, mushroom clouds, and Saddam's drones overflying America can be repeated as necessary.

In regards to Bush's allegation that Saddam could use drones against America, it turns out that WE are the country doing that. The neocon establishment behind Bush (and now Obama) knew Americans would not tolerate these drones. However, they fully expect us to remain silent while the same kind of drones -only in this case US drones that are REAL, -NOT IMAGINARY, -fly over the homes of people in other parts of the world. Are we such sheep that we can be herded and manipulated like this?

Lastly, by now it should be dawning even on the most stalwart Obama supporters here that he is not the man we thought we elected. When measured by his acts, -and not by his words and promises, the picture of this man changes.

ACTS: Obama twice acted at the UN to block lawful resolutions designed to advance the stalled peace process between Israel and the Palestinians. First, Obama used his veto (being the only vote against) to block a UNSC resolution designed to force Israel to stop all Settlement construction in occupied territory, which is something Israel agreed to do when it signed the Road Map. It is also something that MUST happen BEFORE negotiations begin for core issues and final status. This is a specification of the Road Map. It is what Israel agreed to do. Obama blocked that effort to move the peace process forward by enforcing Israel's Road Map obligations. Second, Obama used diplomatic pressure to lobby against a General Assembly resolution to recognize Palestine as a non-member state. This second resolution was attempted only after Obama blocked the first one. The GA resolution passed overwhelmingly. Still, Obama's vote was against it, on the wrong side of history.

In addition, Obama has used the US leadership position in the Quartet to cripple it and prevent advancement of the agenda for peace it was created to pursue. This is one reason why George Mitchell resigned. He saw Obama for what he really is: -a neocon puppet of Israel posing as a democrat.

Look around you: All the political and social horrors we have had to deal with here at home were entirely self-inflicted. Examples include the debt ceiling, the economic collapse, the home foreclosure crises, the fight over health care reform, etc. These things function as a distraction to keep us worried about our homes and our asses while Obama completes the unfinished neocon agenda of the prior administration to topple every Arab state in the mid east.

For me, the most disconcerting part of that thought is the possibility that Obama and Israel are conspiring to create "Arab democracies" in the region, -not for advancement of human rights, but specifically so that Palestinians will have places to relocate when Israel drives them out of Gaza, East Jerusalem, and the occupied West Bank. If this happens, it will be a war crime on a scope equivalent to Hitler's Final Solution. And our president will have sullied the public image of the USA permanently by involving us in it.

Going just a bit further, IF the public decides to vote against more wars, -as they did in 2007, -and continued overt war seems unlikely to gain public approval, the political forces behind the push for war can just tell the president to shift the war to the CIA, where there is no real oversight, no right for the public to be advised, and apparently no way to stop it, short of impeachment of the president and replacement of his cabinet and department heads. In this manner these political forces can do an end-run to circumvent the democratic will of the citizens of the United States of America to get what they want. In this case, that would be the toppling of every Arab state in the mid east, whether the public backs it or not. That effectively makes our military and the CIA the private army of these groups. But WHO do these groups serve? I bet you already know that answer.

Ezra Klein had a good article today. His bottom line was, "Just pass legislation to eliminate the sequester." Period. It is a bad idea, poorly implemented, and needless at this point. Everyone just put your guns back in their holsters and step back.

We have accomplished the goals. Spending is down, taxes are up, the economy is recovering, and the deficit is coming down. Stop messing with it. Give it a few more months (maybe even a year, OMG) and let it get better.

Where is the 'Due Process"?

Maybe they deserve to die, but they also deserve due process under the law. It is the way we do things here in the United States. What you are advocating is vigilanteism, pure and simple.

Pauly- the election is over- you lost- Obama won. He gets to do what he wants because he won the election. Get over it...

When an American citizen joins a terrorist group, that is due process. He is not longer an American citizen. He is a terrorist. He made his choice.

Larry,

Yes, but there should be some process independent of the Executive to determine who has joined a terrorist group. Otherwise, anyone traveling to Pakistan, Yemen, or such runs the risk of being labeled a terrorist and rubbed out. Kinda a high price for attending grandpa's funeral...

Right now, because of Congressional inaction, the Executive Branch serves as judge, jury, and executioner. Such situations are prone to excesses and mistakes -- such as putting Cat Stevens on the no-fly list.

If we are going to continue the drones, we must set up a "board" that each must go through. I agree, one person, regardless of who it is, shouldn't have that much power.

Rusty,

I know Obama won. I voted for him! It doesn't mean I like everything he does, or that he can get away with murder (literally) just because he is president.

I think you are reading me all wrong. I AM a dyed-in-the-wool liberal, but that actually means I demand more accountability of my government, not less!

Pauly- it just seems that most liberals would agree with Mr Obama regardless of the position he takes. If it was Bush who was the judge, jury and executioner- liberals would have screamed from every mountaintop- especially with this level of secrecy. You will be stripped of your liberal card if you get caught disagreeing. Heck, I've disagreed with Obama and have been called a traitor and Hitler on these blogs. As Larry, above, points out- that alone could get me on Obama's hit list.