Sen. Ron Wyden, (D) Oregon, member of the Senate Intelligence Committee
Steve Clemons, of the New America Foundation, editor-at-large at the Atlantic
Norm Ornstein, resident scholar, American Enterprise Institute
And here's executive producer Bill Wolff with a preview of tonight's show:
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Ron Wyden!!!
Excellent get!
I really really really want to know if the real memo will only be made available to the committee or if it will be made public- At least one sanitized of any footnotes that might give away operational details or capabilities which have no bearing on the legal argument made. As a followup- if it is only available to the committee, then will it be available to staffers with appropriate security clearance who are capable of rigorous research into all dimensions of the memo. If not, such superficial scrutiny would be a mockery of the intent of the Congressional oversight provision in the constitution.
Also- it would be nice to hear the perspective of the Senator on the media framing. The right is trying to frame this is that the left doing a Jane Fonda routine with the terrorists, when the issue is independent verification of the claims made. There is no such thing as science without independent verification, I don't see that justice is any different.
one thing i do better than anyone else - i can read people - better than anyone. i can also read a situation better than anyone. (*details at footnote)
President Barack Obama is in a fix and he knows it. He does NOT like the drone program. He wants it deleted. He has called for America's hope on many challenges - frequently. And our man and brother Barack wants out of this "killing the innocent" program. And he cannot get out of it by simply calling for it to be dismissed. So....
And he got half his wish. Your help in protesting the killing of innocent people (youi know, like the right ring right to life fraudsters do) is the other half. So if you are a repuber, you oughta be loud and clear about this about now.
*footnote... if you are going to play high stakes poker, NEVER LOOK AT YOUR HAND BEFORE THE DRAW and raise the max. Then, make your draw and do the same. Why? because what you are really playing is your opponent's fear of loss and nothing else. On the average, your hand is as good as any other on the average. And only if you play every hand will you get the average. Your edge is simply chasing out the runners.
I'm very liberal and I watch Rachel and Ed. If any American pulls a Benedict Arnold to kill Americans from overseas hideouts, then they deserve to die by a drone for the protection of our country. It's war and just plain common sense. Why Rachel doesn't Rachel & Ed understand that?
Chuck- at leat Ed and Rachel know enough to be critical of waterboarding. I mean- can't we all agree that waterboarding is a bad thing, and as you put it- just killing them outright is much more correct.
you are a fool. a huge fool. you are such a fool i dont know where to start except to tell you that Jesus fought for the preservation of innocent life. Go back to your neanderthal cave, fool.
Here is one more thing for your neanderbrain to ponder... what do good people live for.. to be the sacrifices of the bad deeds of others? to be the sacrifices of those who pretend to be there to set the example of protecting the good and the innocent? to live and grow up to be like the americans and declare their way right and drone others? or to take revenge against americans whom they blame for killing the good and innocent they know?
you are a predator.
U.S. Constitution - Amendment 5
Trial and Punishment, Compensation for Takings
No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.
*************************************
Absent a trial, or a declaration of war against a sovereign state, the US has no authority to take a person's life. The above exceptions for our military/militia apply only to those actually serving in the military/militia at the time they are executed. Drone attacks to kill extra-military actors is a violation of the 5th Amendment be they citizens or not.
'm very liberal and I watch Rachel and Ed. If any American pulls a Benedict Arnold to kill Americans from overseas hideouts, then they deserve to die by a drone for the protection of our country. It's war and just plain common sense. Why doesn't Rachel & Ed understand that?
as i previously stated, fool. the drone thing to exterminate others was not meant for him, it was meant for racist returds like mitt 'the@!$%#' romney.
Chuck, Raymax- Huh?
If Ed pointed out that you can't just lynch a person accused of murder without a judge looking over the evidence, you think Ed is for murder?
By the way, For those bewildered by the new Newsvine UI, the Ignore procedure is different:
Dear John, Oh crap that already sounds bad. Anyway, welcome to the club.
i am furious about the subject of killing americans who are fighting with the enemy.they are the enemy is that not clear?ask the soldiers who are in the battle zone if drones should be used,the enemy does not spend their time debating who they will kill.there are soldiers who are maimed for life by i.e.d's when they bring the caskets home these lily livered politicians and pundits dont see the pain and suffering of the families.if you do not like the drone strikes get your sons and daughters into the military and see if you still think the same way.
hello fool. ".if you do not like the drone strikes get your sons and daughters into the military and see if you still think the same way." i really hope you wise up and get a clue of the ultimatum you are issuing, and the game you are changing from "is it really worth it face to face skin in the game" scenario to "let's just do away with these people over there to clear the land and take it.
if you think that cannot and wont happen, then you are a bigger fool than i think.
The topic isn't about fighting against combatants in a declared war, citizen or not, the topic is about targeted assassination of ANYONE, especially outside of a war zone.
It pains me to write this. I am 83, a liberal, a lifelong Democrat and I consider myself progressve. I love your show and have always been in Ed's corner as well, and your combined views on almost every topic you choose to discuss. However, I have to agree with Chuck Swaim on this one. This "citizen" loses his citizenship when he flees to another country and joins a group whose only agenda is to kill Americans and to bring this country to it's knees. One more question, how many of our armed forces would you be willing to sacrafice to bring this dirtbag to trial?
that is NOT the issue, THAT IS THE RATIONALE.
Ray, I will play your strawman game; as many as it takes.
It is not unusual for humans to sacrifice lives to saves others. "3 DEAD SAVING HIKER" is a common enough headline and yet the teams still go out searching for and rescuing hikers.
You actually think sending 20 troops in to arrest people with suicide mentalities is going to bring them to trial ? Then were are you going to try them? you still will not get them a constitutional trial , they are all military trials
also , congress declared war on terror , so your claim that AMERICANS ARE BEING KILLED BY DRONES outside of the war zones , is wrong on multiple levels
I think it should be stopped at this point also , obama should offer these people a truce and try and start all over with them , if they refuse , then bomb the crap out of them , because they will be bombing you if they get a chance
I agree with you RayMax81. Treason is punishable by death and once you go to another country and start working against the U.S. to kill us you are no longer a citizen. And this crap about giving them a chance to surrender; let's be realistic, would any terrorist turn themselves in? I say they get what they deserve! Harsh, yes. Deserved, most definately!
Rachel, please read the 10/16/03 Frontline/NYT interview of Tom Ridge in Chasing the Sleeper Cell andmy my online comment regarding the drone killing of an American citizen in Yemen.
NARRATOR: And the CIA would not talk to us at all about Derwish or Lackawanna, or what happened on November 3, 2002. On that day, a CIA Predator drone was tracking a vehicle in a remote section of Yemen. The intended target, according to Yemeni government officials, was one of the al Qaeda planners of the Cole bombing. A Hellfire missile was fired from the Predator, destroying the vehicle. Six people died in the explosion. Kamal Derwish was one of them.
LOWELL BERGMAN: About two months after they were arrested, the ringleader of the group is identified, apparently, in the remains of a vehicle in Yemen that's blown up, we're told in press reports and by the Yemeni government, by a CIA Predator. It's the first time that we know of that an American citizen has died who is apparently a member of al Qaeda. Was that a subject of discussion?
TOM RIDGE, Secretary of Homeland Security: The death of this individual?
LOWELL BERGMAN: Well--
TOM RIDGE: Of course. Of course.
LOWELL BERGMAN: The fact that an American citizen has been killed in our counterterrorism war by us.
TOM RIDGE: Correct.
LOWELL BERGMAN: How are decisions like that made?
TOM RIDGE: Well, I think, for me, the decision to engage that vehicle or to engage militarily or using any military assets, that's-- those are decisions made by other individuals and other entities outside of Homeland Security. But make no mistake about it, I don't think anybody in the government, in terms of prosecuting the war, as horrible as these terrorists are and the tragedy that befell upon us on 9/11 and whatever we feel about them, still considers it an easy thing to-- to take somebody's life. But if that's what you have to do, under these circumstances of 9/11, to protect America, that's what we have to do.
To which I responded online
Dear FRONTLINE,
I intended to write about FBI director Mueller's satisfaction in breaking down the wall that protects US citizens from domestic spying.
Then I heard the director of Homeland Security admit that, to protect America, the United States government will kill US citizens that it suspects of being terrorists without due process of law. Mr. Ridge made this statement in the context of the CIA killing of a US citizen in Yemen suspected of being a terrorist.
It gives meaning to Mr. Bush's statement in his 2002 state of the union speech that we'll show them the "extent of American justice" as well as his presidential finding permitting the CIA to use all necessary means to get terrorists.
Did Frontline presume that its viewers would, without further probing, comprehend the significance of Mr. Ridge's statement? Or was the risk of embarrassing Mr. Ridge (or George Bush) too great?
I understand Rachel's frustration at the lack of discussion about the use of drones, standards, locations, strikes, need, rationales, specifics. She has been asking for an open discussion of the policies related to the use of drones for a while now. See her book. While I think the questions need answering, I don't agree with her approval of the Code Pink demonstrations DURING the hearing today for Mr. Brennan. If the media were to give coverage and voice to the concerns of Code Pink prior to or after a hearing, their demonstrations outside the chambers, then they would have a voice and ought to have one. I thought that was one reason we need to have the 1st Amendment. Corporate communications media seem not to recognize that. But, to disrupt the testimony in the midst of the hearing where answers were sought for the very policies they objected to, whether those would have be fully adequate or not, is a reflection of the lack of decorum and civility we saw two years ago when Joe from Carolina shouted "You lie!" at the President during speech before Congress and the American people. I don't see a difference in the two events; both speakers were totally disrespected as were the officers the Congress and the American people. So, no Rachel, I don't admire or defend what the Code Pink group did any more than the mouthy Congressman. Neither was the place for such words or actions.
LIAR. you are confusing a lack of respect for respect and a lack of respect for life. You never lived in hell. The real test of war is... "are you willing to give YOUR LIFE for the cause" and NOT! "will you kill these people over there with impunity because you can and get paid for it"?
take a look in that mirror and have a real good discussion with yourself. And while you are at it, remember this, "KILLING INNOCENTS ANYWHERE PUTS THE LIVES OF YOUR CHILDREN IN JEOPARDY WHEN THEY MEET"
Have a nice life, fool.
good debate. Well sort of.
Ever hear a song called Easy Money by ELO ? Well TRMS is singing a song called Easy Murder. 9 to 5 really. Say good day to the wife and kids, go to work and blow someone up from 10,000 miles away, and then on the way home pickup a pizza for tonights family time. Murder should never be that simple or routine. That is the message.
i always figured the rwnj right-to-lifers were double-talking fullasheet conjobbers.
I'm not sure I understand your first sentence. It's hard to think when one has been so rudely addressed.
So were there procedures and standards in place during WWII and Viet Nam for dropping bombs from 10,000 feet that took into account the lack of precision that sometimes occurred when a bomb would drop slightly off target? or if the target were misidentified? or there were innocents who were killed as a result? I'm sure if acknowledgement was done, someone offered words of condolence, but did those deaths of innocents put the lives of our children in jeopardy? Perhaps, but you weaken the impact of your view - which I think is, a real soldier puts his/her life on the line to accomplish the mission so going in to find one bad guy is why they are in the military, and if they lose it while trying to capture or kill that one, that is following the rules and the course of honor so sending in drones is dishonorable ?- when you insult those disagree.
Is it your purpose to shut off discussion here as those Code Pink folks were not allowed their voice in the public arena today? This site asks...invites us to enter our comments. We are not disrupting or being disrespectful by voicing our views, unsolicited. I'm not sure you want discussion and discourse of the ideas any of us express if they don't fully conform to yours. I simply stated that Congressman Joe's and the Code Pink group's views that they had a right to speak when and where they wanted didn't agree with my view that they ought to have made a different choice. People here don't usually call each other "LIAR" in case you didn't know.
It appeared to me that the code pink people were unwilling to extend him respect, and as far as I understand of what Brennan was willing to go along with, if not advocate in the Bush administration, I am not certain they are wrong, Judy.
Whether he was a proponent of the torture or tried to reduce its use or neither, do we judge a person by one time period in a life and not allow them to speak or be heard or refute or explain? Have they lost, if guilty as charged, any chance of redemption and so, our respect? And, if not, are our actions - the Code Pink actions - justified b/c of what we/they thought was true? I think, if I cede them right, does that mean Joe Wilson was right? I hate absolutes, John, but in this instance, I really can't take the John Kerry high ground...
Cold Hearted Profits v. common sense.
Civilization depends on trade. The worlds economy depends on there being customers. Of all the animals on this Earth, only humans want to be those buyers and sellers. This is why we do not see dogs with purses or horses with bank accounts. Only humans will buy our junk. Also, the more customers there are, the bigger the economy can be. The bigger the economy the better life is for everyone.
Our wars are killing our customers! For every dead human our economy shrinks. This is bad. Killing is not only evil, it is also stupid. Do you realize how big the economy could be if we stopped killing each other ?? Or .... what if murder is just wrong. And therefore, murdering the murder only brings you down to their level.
Therefore, I think all murders should have an extra two years added to their sentence for also killing a customer. Just kidding....
lmao! if one cannot be moral about this whole issue, thanks for offering them the simple as pie "arithmetic"!!
Thanks joe, at least some one noticed. My problem is I think the GOP believe it. Just say..
no, it is that the GOP should know this. But they act as if they are still in the middle ages. Winning a war once got you slaves. When slavery was banned, well war as had to take many new forms in order to be excepted.
Attention all you "wanna gotta be self right'eous the way you were treated people". This drone thing is a BIG TRAP. This isn't about saving the lives of soldiers as much as it is about "taking the lives of others anywhere anytime with impunity because you can". It's about those who want power over all others being attracted to the offices that are able to draw up kill lists. Think CENTRAL AMERICAN DEATH SQUADS. Think MOMAR GADAFI. Think BASHAR AL-ASSAD. Think MUBAREK. Think SADAM HUSSEIN. Think POL POT. Think ADOLF HITLER. Think JOSEPH STALIN.
Now you, being the fools you are, are going to say, "hey, we can do this kind of kill thing forever and a day. It will never get out of hand". And i will say to you, you are not just a fool, you are stupid as well.
Dear joseph common, wow. You are pissed-off. Are you going through a divorce? I have been there. The GOP is sharing our feelings today as well. America is no longer a sail boat. It is now a huge ship. It turns slowly. But be brave my friend. At least we Americans do not just shot each other just because we feel bad about ourselves!!!
Did I just prove the other side correct ? D- in debating ?? Ma is going to kill me !! ok not really....sorry ma......
The prolific use of capital letters (screaming in text), and the derogatory words "fool and stupid" that appears in every post, tells us all we need to know about joe common: things are not up for discussion. Might be in the wrong party.
DARN REPUBLICANS !! I am not helping am I ?
* Until humanity admits that we must stop killing each other, both global warming and humankinds long term existence will still be undiscovered-country *. …or….
* Darn ….I love Star Trek. Solving problems with your wit. What a novel idea. Yah, I would have cut it after only two seasons as well. I would not think tv land were ready for it. Also, the money was not coming in fast enough.
THANK YOU TRMS!!!!!
Just wish Wyden loved Oregon's public lands and forested areas as much as he does American public's lives and security against drone strikes. ...Little by little we are moving in the correct direction for humanity.
Thanks TRMS!!!!!
THANKS FRIENDS!!!!!
You (TRMS) think we (united states citizens) have the correct mechanisms to oversee the military?
What a horrible disgusting joke.
WE, Americans have lost control of The Army, decades ago. LETS FIX IT!!!
thank goodness for code pink!
Fellow Liberals: WAKE UP! CIA murder is anti-American. Drone Strikes hurt our country.