Interestingly a flat tax fulfills "'for unto whom much is given, much shall be required." And because it treats everyone equally, it's fair.

Shooter, by "fair", you mean regressive. Explain to me the moral reasoning that a poor person should be taxed with money he's using to try to put food on the table, when a rich person is taxed the same when he's using that money for his own luxuries?

Did I mention that the Bush administration's own Treasury Dept. estimated that the "Fair" tax could cost the Treasury some 3 trillion dollars in lost revenue?

Sure thing Shooter. Let's include all of the money that corporations have off-shored for the purposes of avoiding paying tax on it. Every dollar made, no matter it was made, is subject to the tax.

Speaking of reasoning.... Intelligence Study Links Low IQ to Conservative Ideology. Link is here: http://pss.sagepub.com/content/early/2012/01/04/0956797611421206.abstract

Flat Tax is not fair.

When you make 100,000/year a 10% flat tax means you can put your child thru pretty much any state supported school in the US for 2-4 years.

When you make 15,000 a year, a 10% flat tax means you have to move to a cheaper apartment.

Well let's see, if everyone is treated equally under the law, it's fair, yes? You all are in favor of treating people unequally, which is unfair, no?

You can argue for progressive taxation, just don't call it "fair." It isn't under any meaning of the word. Now, just to move things along, do you people think anyone making less than say $20,000 should be living tax free? No state, local, or Federal taxes?

Shooter, how exactly is progressive taxation unfair? What's unfair about the people who can most afford to pay taxes paying the most? Why should a poor person have to pay taxes when nearly 100% of their income is being used for necessities, and a rich person pay the same amount of taxes when nearly 100% of their income is being used for luxuries?

@Alva

Actually they would not

pay the same amount of taxes

The person who is making more is paying a higher amount as the percentage is based on their total income.

and why do you assume that 100% of a wealthy person's income is used for luxuries?

The problem is with conflicting definitions of "fair." One measure is, of course, a percentage. A far better measure of fair taxation is how much money people are left with, post-tax, to meet their needs. If we can agree than private jets, swimming pools, boarding schools, Armani, Gucci, etc., are luxuries and not needs, then the point makes itself. If we cannot agree on such an obvious distinction, there's no point in arguing because those who believe Gucci, e.g., is a need, simply do not have the inner capacity to see beyond their own greed.

Shooter, you are so full of crap it's no wonder your eyes are brown. Not to mention you're an ignorant little futhermucker in desperate need of a good slapping-around.

Ah yes, greed. Wis, greed isn't wanting to keep more of one's earnings, greed is coveting someone elses earnings for yourself.

There's an old saying in the tax game that "A fair tax is not a simple tax and a simple tax is not a fair tax."

Shooter, I'm going to give you the same opportunity I've given many others to answer a couple of very simple questions about your "fair" tax:

1. Are you going to tax gross or net business income? (Be careful how you answer!)

2. Are you saying that we should unite AICPA accounting rules about income and deductions with the Internal Revenue Code? (Again, be careful!)

3. Do you propose taxing social transfer payments (welfare, aid to dependent children, food stamps, all of social security)?

4. What do you plan to do with the mortgage interest, property tax, medical expense, and charitable contribution deductions on Schedule A?

5. How do you propose to account for capital gains that have not been taxed at the time of the taxpayer's death?

Yes, folks, I know. I'll be waiting ... and waiting ... and waiting ... for Shooter's well reasoned reply.

@Wiskoda

I agree, the problem is the conflicting definition of "fair". But it is a slippery slope...

So now we chose to judge whether, if a person has the means to buy designer brands and luxury items, etc., that they "should" give more of their money to the government.

But what about the other side of it? I understand that there are people out there that are truly poor. But also, how many people now consider "needs" items like cell phones with plans, electronics, expensive cable packages, name brand clothing...

I am solidly middle class. Graduated from college in the Carter era where everyone in the human service field started out not in the clinical positions that their education trained them for, but in entry level positions making minimum wages. Drove a used car for years, saved, and sacrificed in order to have more. I still have a pay as you go tracfone, don't eat out, have one flat screen tv, and drive a car that is 9 years old. But it's all paid for... by me... and that feels good.

You can argue for progressive taxation, just don't call it "fair." It isn't under any meaning of the word. Now, just to move things along, do you people think anyone making less than say $20,000 should be living tax free? No state, local, or Federal taxes?

One thing that is not considered is the contribution of the low wage earner to the overall economy v. the contribution of the wealthy to the overall economy. The low-wage earner generally spends every dime they make.. they have to. Rent, utilities, groceries, ect. Thus, their income is put into the local economy at almost 100% (there may be a few that opt for a small savings account here and there.) The high end earner also contributes to the economy, but at a much reduced percentage of their income. Generally, more of their money is "set aside" in savings accounts, IRA's, ect. .. Additionally, part of their income is spent outside the country with no benefit to the US economy at all.

Here's is an interesting chart that discusses the way money is spent amount the different income brackets. http://www.npr.org/blogs/money/2012/08/01/157664524/how-the-poor-the-middle-class-and-the-rich-spend-their-money

Also, some interesting comments related to the story.

#1.14 Excellent point, Just my two coppers,

I think it's safe to say that Walmart is not being kept going by the wealthiest shoppers! Nor are the ubiquitous Dollar Stores.

Let's not forget that Poppy Bush did not know what a bar code was.

It is the low wage earner that keeps the country afloat. The rich are hoarders and put their money where it MAKES money. A lot of their spending is not even in this country. Not to mention that every rich person I've known is as tight as a drum.

Copper, I hope you don't mind, I posted that link on my FACEBOOK page.

"You can argue for progressive taxation, just don't call it "fair." It isn't under any meaning of the word. Now, just to move things along, do you people think anyone making less than say $20,000 should be living tax free? No state, local, or Federal taxes?"

What do you call amounts withheld for Social Security and Medicare? Myself, I call them "taxes." Same goes for property taxes paid on a home (or that portion of rent that goes to compensate a landlord for the taxes on that property. What about those sales taxes paid on everyday purchases that are used to fund public goods and services? I guess those don't count in conservative world.

Even if you're only talking about income taxes, you're just plain wrong. At $20K, both single taxpayers and married couple without kids are paying federal income tax. Not huge amounts, but then they don't have much income.

Also, in most states with a state income tax, that taxpayer has been paying state income tax, too. In Oregon, for example, single taxpayers with as little as $5,600 are paying state income tax at a 5% rate. Married taxpayers without children, claiming the state's low ($2,025 for single taxpayers, $4,055 for married filing jointly) standard deduction, are paying at less than $9K.

At the $20K earnings mark, meaning $17,975 in taxable income before the $183 exemption credit ($15,945 taxable income, $366 exemption credit for a married couple), taxpayers have already progressed into the 9% bracket and are paying hundreds of dollars in state income taxes. Assuming that they pay no federal income tax, our single taxpayer pays $1,211 in Oregon income tax. The married couple pays $738 at that same household income level.

Shooter, I know it's a lot of trouble, but how about actually using some FACTS to back up some of the statements you make.

For those of you who aren't in the know, The "Fair" Tax is an actual proposal that's come out of the libertarian wing of the Republican party. Neal Boortz helped develop it.

Basically, it would make all taxes null and void, and replace it with a nation-wide sales tax at 23%. It is basically just a scheme to enact a flat tax.

LMFAO - repTards What a bunch Screwy Goofballs ; Oh , But , IOKIYAR to Lean-back on religion , but they only do it to Cover-There-Butts and Use religion as an Excuse for their Wants and Greed , They such a bunch of Weasels !

Speaking of reasoning.... Intelligence Study Links Low IQ to Conservative Ideology.

jrcricket: To be fair, we should clarify what the Canadian study means and doesn't mean. It found a statistical association between lower cognitive ability and bigotry when mediated through conservative ideology and right wing authoritarianism. These last two terms can overlap, but are not necessarily the same. The Right Wing Authoritarianism and the lack of contact outside a narrow social group explains the statistical association, but the study doesn't mean what you appear to be suggesting.

Right Wing Authoritarianism proposes simplified ideas in absolutist terms, and these simplified ideas often express racial and ethnic prejudice and unquestioning loyalty to one's country and/or racial, religious, or ethnic group. Simplified and absolutist ideologies are likely to attract less intelligent people precisely because they depict complex questions of right and wrong in simple, hierarchical, and self serving terms. The attraction of less intelligent people to Right Wing Authoritarianism is likely to be heightened if the less intelligent people have little contact with the kind of racially and ethnically different people they demonize.

The study does NOT mean that Conservatives are less intelligent than average, by virtue of their conservatism. It means that less intelligent people are often drawn to a particular kind of conservatism, Right Wing Authoritarianism, because Right Wing Authoritarianism is based on simplified, hierarchical,and self serving tenets that less intelligent people can understand and process.

#1.20 I am in agreement with your explanation. That makes perfect sense. Less intelligent people would like simplified tenets.

Now if only we could demand IQ tests for those running for congress. Seems a few of those less intelligent, right-wing conservatives have slipped through the cracks and are demanding to have their way. Are bullies likely to be of low intelligence as well?

Yes , the Amygdala when under-sized as it is within many people it has a selfish self-centered focus on ones-Self and does not allow or Limits for the concerns toward others - this brain abnormality is Most Prominent within people that are focused on Business and also within Serial-Killers ! Look it up and read and learn - They have Abnormal brain formations of this particular organ within the brain and is obviously prominent within gop/tp and groups of people that have a selfish and tribal group allegiance's !

The Undersized Amygdala brain malformation also actually makes the hosts feel that they are smarter and Above All others that are around them ! Thus THEY look down on others as being Lesser than themselves ! Also Narrows their focus Upon Themselves even Further !

Pure evil, #1.24

That explains it! I have wondered what creates a Paul Ryan or an Eric Cantor! Not to mention Adam West, Michele Bachmann, that blonde creature from Arizona (Oh yeah, Jan Brewer), Mitch McConnell.......I could go on and on but you get my drift.

Yes , it Does , it Also explains LISP (above) that believes that she is control of All others ! The Amygdala when Normal sized or Larger Allows people to be More forgiving / Outgoing and trusting towards others around them ! Also allows one to Care More Towards Others and Appreciate the events and situations that Others go through , to be more thoughtful toward them and to believe and realize that the host is NOT The Only one within this world , that there are Others that need assistance and help through Life , a More Realistic Vision of the World and All People Within It !

You guys are spending way too much time analyzing shooter and his feminine side (lisafp)!

It's simple really:

They spend so much their time worshiping the almighty dollar that they can't see that there are other things that are considerably more important in life, like charity, compassion, love.....

@pure evil

Wow, just wow.

Pat phrases that are rather simplistic and black and white. i.e. if someone does not embrace leftist dogma without question, one must be self centered and look down on others...

You can always tell a phony....that "righteous indignation" thing....

lisp , Your Amygdala must be smaller than a Pea or less ! Hehehehheeeeeeee......

Lisafp: The most privileged americans DO benefit from nooks and crannies in the tax code, and having them pay more, within reason, IS equitable. These nooks and crannies were enacted by politicians of both parties, driven by the need to raise money for their campaigns. The evil in this area isn't wealthy americans, but the role of money in our political system, which neither side seems willing to fix. I haven't heard "the republicans want to throw grandma off a cliff" repeated as a mantra by Democrats, though you apparently have heard some Democrats say it. Republicans do seem to want to reduce the deficit by defunding groups who tend to vote Democratic, while still funding groups who vote and/or fund Republicans. (Compelling the armed services to accept weapons systems they don't want, in order to fund corporate supporters, comes readily to mind.)

Catchy campaign slogans are not necessarily fundamental ideological tenets. However, some of the extreme wings of contemporary Republicanism (gun fanatics, homophobes who want their bigotry enacted into law, and the religiously righteous, who claim that forcing a woman to remain pregnant and give birth against her will is an act of compassion, do seem to have a simplified, hierarchical, and self serving belief system, the sine qua non of Right wing Authoritarianism.

You also leave out that the wealthy also enjoy more of the services government provide. That is the rights problem they can't grasp that government provides them more fire protection, more police protection in fact everything the government provides in services the wealthy takes the lions share.

Folks here should realize that when Blanksy talks about "fair" and we talk about "fair" two different concepts are being referred to.

Blanksy is only worried about he/she/it thinks is "fair" for him/her/it. We, on the other hand, are thinking about what is "fair" for the community as a whole. Because, you know, we are that community.

That's the difference and it's one that Blanksy and his/her/its ilk will, unfortunately, never understand.

How tiring ... that if one does not espouse the leftist agenda, one must be either an idiot or totally self absorbed. Also rather judgemental and prejudiced of you... You have already reached a conclusion about what I must be all about...

@ sofferlese

The most privileged Americans do pay more. According to IRS figures the top 1% pay an average tax rate of 24%, the top 10% an average of 18%, the top 50% an average of 12.5%, and the bottom 50% an average of 1.85%.

I think that the reality that entitlement programs are not sustainable into the future and that there is a need to revise them now(and not saddling our children with crushing debt) is something that both republicans and democrats recognize. However, not being addressed in a bipartisan fashion.

Once again, I find it rich that you jump down my case in a heart beat and when a frequent blogger to this site uses the derogatory term of tard... you are all silent...

I guess that charity only extends so far...

Shooter, you are confusing sameness with fairness. Everybody pays the same, but the burden isn't fair. It isn't fair to YOU. It's like you have to carry around a 50 lb. box and Larry Allen has to carry around a 50 lb. box. It's the same, right?

Ask and you shall receive. Thanks for waiting, my nap went overtime. In order...

1. Net.
2. I have no idea.
3. Nope. Standard deduction of say $15-20,000
4. By definition those go away.
5. Capital gains aren't taxed until the asset is sold.

Re: no taxes at all for certain people I meant all taxes. You all seem indignant that some people pay any taxes period. So should They have a tax free existence? No sales tax, no gas tax, no income tax, no SS or Medicare tax, no tax of any kind?

Lastly, you seem to not know that the AMT is a flat tax already in force.

Well head, isn't the idea of fairness about everyone being treated the same way? Or is fair whatever you decide it is?

Shooter,

All earned income up to a bit above $100k is already subject to a flat tax of more than 15% (employee plus employer FICA and Medicare taxes).

The Federal Income Tax has always been designed to hit the wealthy harder than everyone else, in recognition that the wealthy on average place greater demands on government and have more disposable income than everyone else. And before you go off in a huff over whether the wealthy place demands on government, go to a few meetings of a city council, county board of supervisors, state legislative hearing, or federal hearing and look at those asking for taxpayer subsidy of their projects or interests. Such as the owner of an electric utility in Texas getting permission to grossly violate the Clean Air Act more than thirty years after its passing so he and his share holders can maximize their profit margins.

Lisa- the libs on this site understand Eddie is a lightweight between he ears. But your point is correct in that they will jump all over any level of name abuse to Obama, yet accept names for any number of conservatives in silence.

Yeah, Jesus is for a flat-tax, and it's wonderfully fair- as long as you ignore passages like this:

Luke 21:1-4

New International Version (NIV)

The Widow’s Offering

21 As Jesus looked up, he saw the rich putting their gifts into the temple treasury. ² He also saw a poor widow put in two very small copper coins. ³ “Truly I tell you,” he said, “this poor widow has put in more than all the others. ⁴ All these people gave their gifts out of their wealth; but she out of her poverty put in all she had to live on.”

Taxes - Who Pays

Start with this article – mainly the graph on Total Tax Bill by Income Group (as a percentage of income)

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/ezra-klein/wp/2012/09/19/heres-why-the-47-percent-argument-is-an-abuse-of-tax-data/

Then, this one is important for understanding that only about 42% of Federal Revenues come from income - and payroll tax accounts for another 40%

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Federal_Receipts_by_Source,_2010.jpg

This one also shows sources of Federal Tax – but scroll down and you will see how they have changed since 1950.

http://www.taxpolicycenter.org/briefing-book/background/numbers/revenue.cfm

rusTard / lispTard - All repTards - STFU .......................

Shooter . . . Thank you for falling into the trap. The essence of the flat ("fair?") tax is that it eliminates deductions and simplifies the tax calculation. The more loopholes provided, the less "flat" or "fair" your proposal becomes.

There are many sections of the tax code--and shelves full of tax court cases and revenue rulings--pertaining to the lengthy journey from gross to net business income. That doesn't include litigating the distinction between deductions allowable to businesses and to those necessary (and similar) expenses that accrue to people who work as employees. More loopholes are found in this section of the federal income tax system than in any other. In fact, most items perceived as loopholes come under this heading. No small part is derived from differences between AICPA rules and those in the tax code (hence the second question).

You're not for means testing Social Security? We do now by beginning to tax payments when taxpayers have around $35,000 in other income. A tremendous boon for rich people here.

You also just killed the American housing industry and no small number of charities with your answer to Question #4. Your standard deduction--which isn't all that much greater than the current amount--wouldn't come close to covering mortgage interest and property taxes for many homeowners, let alone other items found on either Schedule A or in the "adjustments" section on the front of Form 1040.

It would appear that your proposal does not stack up well, given your answers. However, thank you for playing. Try again.

Kevin- never mistake giving to the Lord, or the charity of our notice, to forced taxation. I also find it interesting when the good Samaritan example is used for federal health care. Totally missing the point of caring for one another. Jesus asks YOU and ME to care or others, not to blindly Give to Ceasar so that Ceasar can do what we're supposed to do.

Eddie- your normal level of intelligence. You are an Obama voter, aren't you? Others must be proud to be associated with you.

The problem with "fairness"- what is it? Is it 25% for a millionaire? 35, 50, 75, 90%? Everyone has a different answer. Just how many would have said 39.6% was fair?

Let US Never forget the republican/teabagger MOTTO ; Why help Others , when We can help Ourself to OPM - Other Peoples Money ; This has always been their Motto and Always Will Be ! This also ties into their Tribal Allegiance Oath's amongst themselves and is Very closely tied to the Under-sized Amygdala that they All suffer from and Share , it also melds them All together with their Isolated and fraternal gang mentalities as they confuse and Justify this to religious beliefs that they themselves do Not even follow but rather Use as and for an Excuse for their own Selfish and Greedy Purpose's ! And they actually believe that many Americans are Fools and believe their rhetoric of False religious followings ! Heheheheheeeee ...... But Seriously , just Who are the Real Fools here ?

rusted-one , Yeah That's Correct , Many Are Proud of Me , Many are Very Disgusted with U and Your Kind and Tides Are Turning , Perhaps Someday U will come to realize that what U stand for is completely Bogus and Asinine ! But , I Doubt it ! You and Your kind are just Far too Ignorant to see the real Road that is in front of US and this Nation ! As for you and your kind and your Intelligence levels - well - you ALL Definitely NEED some Advancement ! U-bunch of Ignorant Goofballs !

rusted-one , Yeah Many are proud of Me and Respect Me , As I am Very Proud of them and Respect Them Very Much in return ! This is something that you Goofballs just cannot Grasp unless there is Money exchanged amongst your kind or Money that you can Steal from others to benefit Only yourselves , and after you-all get what you Want - You Dump each-other and everyone around you , you-all are just Pathetic and Anti-American to the Bone / Selfish,Greedy Spoiled-little Punks ! So STFU ......................Goofball ..............

Lisafp,

You know what is really tiring?

You come here purposely spouting garbage that you KNOW will piss posters on this blog off, and when they call you on it, you immediately go into "righteous indignation" mode.

You do it EVERY TIME, and quite frankly, it is BORING!!!

Is that why you come here? To get a "righteous indignation" high?

Get off your high horse. At least shooter doesn't play the "poor me" card when HE gets called out!!!

Highlights

John, it's always wonder inducing when the left equates "not paying tax" with "a demand on govt."

Kevin, believe it or not there is a large difference between gifts and forced taking of one's property.

Adam, I don't believe the lowest quintile pays 12% in state and local, and the Federal numbers don't include Federal free money they receive. OTOH you get major props for providing cites.

MP, no, you've fallen into my trap. I can now see you've never owned a business and have no clue about how they really work.

Once, you aren't getting it. People like Lisa are fascinated with seeing how low commenters here can go. What are supposedly smarter than average people really aren't very bright or emotionally stable.

In closing, it's obvious that the left believes "fair" is what it says, not equal treatment under the law. Sad.

No, Shooter, you come here to see how low YOU can go.

If Lisa wants to see how low people can go, she should go to Foxnation.

If Lisa wants to be a troll, fine, but she shouldn't "whine" every time someone tells her she is full of *#(^.

@Once

Why be so afraid of views that differ from yours? What is wrong with a little debate? If I consider that I have a reasonable alternative to something being said, I present it. I may be blunt and to the point, but I don't think that I am rude.

Actually... you seem to be the one that moves to the "righteous indignation" stance when someone presents another view point...

They spend so much of their time worshipping the almighty dollar that they can't see that there are other things that are considerably more important in life like charity, compassion, and love.

Your fall back argument is that you must be morally superior. Others resort to name calling. It is rather prejudicial and I was pointing that out. No poor me.

I enjoy a good political debate with individuals willing to engage in a manner that is respectful and I think that there are some people on this blog that enjoy that also.

Malicious misinformation does not and cannot constitute a "differing opinion" or "point of view". Hope this helps.

Eddie- you are doing a wonderful job of making my point. Name calling is the first level, and often the only level, of debate from people who are thought challenged.

Hey, folks, doncha just love it when the trolls wallow in totally unwarranted self-righteous indignation?

@entrophy

referring to IRS stats and discussing the need for entitlement reform is malicious misinformation... curious...

Lidsfp:

An anysis of your posts so far:

#1.8

The person who is making more is paying a higher amount as the percentage is based on their total income.

and why do you assume that 100% of a wealthy person's income is used for luxuries?

First of all, your first statement is incorrect. The person who is making more is NOT paying a higher amount as the percentage IS NOT based on their total income. It is based on their NET income and the person who is making more has MANY more opportunities to put part of his income in non-taxable entities. How many people making $20,000 can stash $4000 in an IRA or have access to other types of tax writeoffs, like 2 houses? The rich don't buy a house that has 1200 square feet, they buy houses with 3,000 +square feet - tell me that is not a luxury!! The poor don't buy steaks at Ruth Chris's, they get hamburgers at McDonalds. So a false equivalency - just "propaganda" . How do you "debate" with propaganda???

Second, Alva never said100%, she said "nearly 100%" - there is a difference, and quite frankly, a rich person buys a Mercedes or a Jaguar, they don't buy Honda Civics so yes, most of their money IS paid on "luxuries". So how do you "debate" a person who twists what you say?? Just a red herring - how do you "debate" red herrings?

#1.13

So now we chose to judge whether, if a person has the means to buy designer brands and luxury items, etc., that they "should" give more of their money to the government.

But what about the other side of it? I understand that there are people out there that are truly poor. But also, how many people now consider "needs" items like cell phones with plans, electronics, expensive cable packages, name brand clothing...

Needs like cell phones with plans, electronics..... OH, THAT's RIGHT, poor people shoud SUFFER!!! They don't deserve all the things the rest of take for granted and the things that they need these days just to survive. Tell me how do you "debate" that thinks that the poor don't "deserve" what the rest of us have?? Don't you think they need a computer to conduct their personal business? Or should they use the ones in the library? Don't you think they need cell phones? And believe it or not, poor people DON'T have the fancy plan you do.

I'm ignoring all that "self gratuitous stuff you said about "how you pay your bills, blah, blah, blah......like the rest of don't???? How do you debate a person who think all of people she's talking to are "losers"?

#1.23

Really?? What about left wing tenets such as "the rich need to pay their fair share"

You think that "the rich need to pay their fair share" is a "left wing tenant"? What do you believe - that the rich should NOT pay their fair share? Yep, that's guaranteed to get a good "debate" going.

All the rest was just more "blah, blah, blah". I can't see exactly what you think you are debating.

I stand by my original statement: You are here just to troll and garner some "self-righteous indignation"!

Enough said! But I am SURE you will come up with some whine......you just can't help yourself!!!

Once again,

IRS stats do confirm that the wealthier pay a higher average tax rate. The tax system is progressive.

The debate becomes... is it progressive enough... and how does one define the terms "fair" and "balanced".

With regards to your contention that I am stating that "poor people should suffer" if they cannot have cell phone plans, extensive cable packages, electronics, etc. and that all deserve what others have... once again, there is a difference between wants and needs. We need a safe and warm home, nutritional food, adequate clothing, and access to medical care and education. Wants are the extras that we work for... something that my parents taught me and that I have taught my children. And that fancy plan that you seem to think I have... I think that I noted. I have what I can afford. I have a pay as you go Tracfone, no plan.

Is the government safety net meant to assist those in need? Absolutely... but when we keep extending beyond what is a "need" into the "wants" that people consider that they "deserve", where does it stop? There aren't enough deep pockets in America to support this...

<gratuitous facepalm>

and I never said someone was a loser...

as one who started out in entry level positions, I never considered myself a loser...

Good Lord Once, Entropy, Eddie, and Evil,

You have been exposing these trolls for the ignorant @ssholes that they are and STILL they keep posting!

Stupid at its finest!

But they will keep b*tching about this, that and the other because they are too stupid to do anything else.

Here is a helpful translation of troll talk: BLAH BLAH BLATHER OBAMA IS BLACK BLAH BLAH BLAH!

Pure troll drivel....

*sigh*

Shooter . . . Actually, I DO own a business. And, yes, I know how they work. It also shows that you know little about the tax code--or else you're being deliberately obtuse. A large share of the tax loopholes that benefit business have to do with getting from gross to net (taxable) income. A flat tax of any kind is virtually useless, other than simply reducing tax rates and lowering taxes, if the goal is to simply the tax code and make it fairer.

Every day, the trolls here demonstrate the validity of the saying "There are three classes of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics."

Do not feed the obtuse trolls! It is a sin to waste food!

Food for thought counts!

Differences of opinions are important to understand. That's why I come to a ite like this one. It may make people uncomfortable. It's obvious that people like Donna, Eddie, entrophy, et l would rather declare anyone with an opposing opinion an enemy of the state- and bring the drones in. Sorry if others speaking opposing opinions make you uncomfortable. Maybe we need to toss out the first amendment along with the second...

Rust-for-brains: You making ME uncomfortable? LOL!!!! It seems as if trolls also have over inflated egos as well! LOL!!!!

Actually: I find trolls like you beneath contempt.

And you don't give a sh*t about expressing "differences of opinions." All you care about is trolling this site with your right wing bullsh*t.

Even after your troll lying posts are proven to be utter lies and nonsense, trolls like you insist on posting the same lie, over and over again, in the vain hope that if you repeat a lie enough times it magically turns into the truth.

And sure you can say what ever bullsh*t you want. But be prepared to be called out for it and to be exposed for the ignorant troll that you are.

When you are arguing about whether or not the poor are paying income tax, don't forget to mention that a family of four pays as much on its $20,000 total income as a family of four that makes $100,000 pays on their first $20,000. That's what a progressive income tax means. So for some fat cat plutocrat to weep and wail about someone not paying income tax, remind him that he isn't paying income tax on the same amount.

India, point taken.

I should always remember that truism about wrestling with pigs....

Oncearepublican

I used to fall in their trap, but now they're on ignore, so their hate isn't a contagion to me anymore.

Haven't wrestled with pigs.......well..maybe in high school... oh, yeah..

oh, yeah...

But when you put them on ignore, you miss the comedy of their lies.

Yeah.....LOL......who is that? Oh, I see it now, had to use my special lens!

I was actually expecting Eddie!

It can be hard to keep from posting something in reply, especially for comments that are over the top or outrageous.

You just have to learn to tell yourself "Well, bless their heart.", and leave them alone.

As much as you would like to think that this is about hate,ignorance, or bigotry... it is just the opposite. I believe that America is the land of opportunity and that anyone can achieve a better life for themselves and their children.

For me, it's mathematics and as a fiscal conservation, the belief that we are moving fiscally in a very bad direction for everyone. In 2011 we borrowed $.36 for every $1.00 that we spent and in 2012, it is estimated that we would have borrowed $.35 for every $1.00 we spent. (US Gov historical budget tables). (Just two years here... we've been doing this for a long time).

I don't consider that the answer will be to keep spending and spending and expect that we can tax our way out of it. I don't consider that the answer is to focus on the wealthy, analyze what they have, and demand that they should be supporting the spending in Washington as it keeps increasing without restraint. There are not enough wealthy people in America to sustain the spending and the promises that we keep making.

We need to reform spending and that requires honestly looking at all areas. Every area needs to be on the table.

I don't know how the Hemorrhoids justify their certainty with their ignorance of economics and arithmetic, but the medical literature tells you that if you scratch the Hemorrhoids, they get worse.

Preparation H for wingnut trolls: Ignore.

Once again, I refer to the US Gov tables... if they're wrong... complain to the US Government.

Another tidbit...

the top 1% pay 37% of all taxes

the top 5% pay 59% of all taxes

the top 10% pay 70% of all taxes

the top 25% pay 87% of all taxes

the top 50% pay 98% of all taxes

the bottom 50% pay 2% of all taxes

the bottom 47% pay no taxes

Doesn't it seem that we already do depend substantially on our wealthiest to sustain the current tax system?

I am not talking about reducing their tax burden. I am talking about recognizing that we can't keep spending and expecting that their pockets will always be deep enough to cover what we keep promising (as that list grows and grows).

This is ultimately about the size of government (and whether that size is sustainable over time) and the role of government in peoples lives. Like I said before... it can be a slippery slope.

lisp - Just Where do U come-up with these incredible numbers ? U-repTards are soo purposefully Blind and Ignorant - it is Ridiculous ! Lies-Lies-LIES ! U-repTards are Goofballs and your eyes are Brown as-well ! It STILL Amazes me that U-repTards Continue to Ignore the Years of 2000-2008 ! U-all always avoid any and every Facts about Our countries financial spending during those Years and ACT as-though All of this spending and depletion of America's finances Just Popped out of the woodwork when President Obama Took the Seat ! U-repTards Are INSANE !

Donna- would you give me an example of a lie I put on here? I hate to call you a liar without giving you a chance to prove otherwise.

Dkm- yes, the poor pay taxes, and lots of them. And, under democratic theory in place today, they will pay even more. If a poor family rents a house, the rent includes the property tax. If they make a purchase, not only do they pay sales tax, but they also pay the imbedded taxes in the product they buy. To the extent possible, corporations have to price products to include all the taxes they pay, from property taxes, sales taxes, income taxes, payroll taxes, etc. let the flood gates open on this... Implicit in liberal thought is corporate tax is a free lunch in regards to lower and middle class. It isn't.

U repTards will stop at Nothing to Dirty the Waters ..............................

I'm sure the trolls are just having "fun with numbers". I would always doubt their credibility - and their "sources". Here's a link that shows what is really going on in the US (and it has gotten much worse in the past 5 years).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:U.S._Distribution_of_Wealth,_2007.jpg

This link is also very interesting:

http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://farleftside.com/misc/2012/wealth-distribution-big.jpg&imgrefurl=http://farleftside.com/2012/6-27-2012-monsters-inc.html&h=540&w=720&sz=188&tbnid=TuNfZOoXTgG0kM:&tbnh=90&tbnw=120&zoom=1&usg=__vUqTX6vM_pP20IcpLXbFOrMWRmo=&docid=l1Uc3_8kCEV96M&hl=en&sa=X&ei=A2AYUaH5H5C10QHwhICgCg&sqi=2&ved=0CGAQ9QEwBw&dur=913

Sorry, I don't know how to make tinyurls work on this machine! I can't get the link to work.

Lisafp's numbers are in reference to the Federal Income Tax, which accounts for less than half of annual Federal tax revenue.

To represent these numbers as 'all tax' is simply a bald-faced lie.

the bottom 47% pay no taxes

I have been deliberately staying out of this until now but I would like to point out one thing about this statement. It's completely wrong.

The bottom 47% actually pay most of the taxes in this county. Sales Tax, deductions from paychecks, all of those fees on fuel and lord knows everything else...and just by virtue of the numbers and the necessity of their level of consumption they pay more.

The upper income brackets might pay more in actual "Income Tax" but they also statistically consume less and spend less than lower income people.

Whenever the wealthy start complaining that they have to pay to much of their money in Taxes, stop and ask them what they would do with it if they had it...odds are they aren't going to tell you they are going to spend it...

I stand corrected, I referenced that it was from the US gov tables but should have specified that it was federal income taxes. The discussion about raising taxes on the wealthy usually pertains to raising federal income taxes so that is what I referenced.

Dragoon- I might agree that the lower income people pay pay more of their disposable income to taxes, including implied taxes. Not for sure they pay more in real terms, though they undoubablty pay a much higher percent of disposable funds to taxes, both direct and indirectly. Rich people buy more, spend more, etc- so pay more in sales taxes. They live in more expensive houses, so pay much more in property taxes, have more expensive hobbies- boating, etc- so unless they are like Kerry and figure out a way to host the yatch in a lower tax area (sorry- had to point that on out- lol)- but I would suggest that rich people indeed pay much more in taxes, though maybe a lower percent of their disposable funds.

Eddie- I think I recognize your picture- weren't you the dude who played alongside Tom Hanks- Wilson?

Wasn't that cute!

yeah. actually, it was more his mentality that caused the resemblance...

Lisa...

You have to be very careful when speaking to the liberals on this blog. Since you disagree with them, they will call you on every single misstep you make, but yet give themselves a wide path to walk when discussing the same subject.

Want an example...take your comment about the bottom 47% not paying any taxes. Everyone out here knew what you were referring to, but since you werent extremely specific, they jumped all over you. However, go back and find similar posts where they have talked about how corporations don't pay taxes and they never take into consideration how much the corporations pay in the exact same taxes they give the bottom 47% credit for.

Everything you said was truthful and they know it, they just dont want to accept it and would prefer to live in denial...and that isnt a river in Egypt.

just saying...

Those on the right come to this blog (and others) for no other reason than to spread malicious misinformation. They know it, and so does everybody else, except perhaps for a few lickspittle liberals. There is no legitimate reason for treating these right-wing trolls with any respect whatsoever. And, considering that anyone to the left of Attila the Hun is kept out of right-wing blogs, the whining, narcissistic self-pity of the trolls here and on other sites is especially egregious. By all right, none of the trolls above should be allowed here at all.

Rust-for-brains:

All of your posts are lies. And you can call me what ever you want. I don't care.

And Stormfront,

You are one of the biggest idiot trolls on this site. No one takes you seriously. You are just another blanks like troll who is full of sh*t.

Just saying...

Once again Donna the offer stand to you and any other person on this blog...find one lie that I have told...just one and I am gone for good. If I am such an idiot, it must be easy for you to prove me to be the liar you have accused me of.

Obviously, you can't, but that doesnt stop you from your malicious attacks. It must suck to be you.

just saying...

One could give examples of right-wing malicious misinformation until the proverbial cows come home, but they would just double down on their malicious misinformation. It is a waste of one's time and an insult to the intelligence of any decent person to spend any time to rebut them. They will just spew more verbal vomit. They are incorrigible. Until such time as the staff might muster up the courage to ban them, the only sensible choices are to give them the rhetorical back of your hand and click on "No Value" and "Inflammatory".

Donna- lol, I didn't think you would find one. And, while you know it is true, I'm not going to call ou a liar. Oops, maybe I just did. But, the option is still there to legitimize your lie. I find you about as void of ideas as Eddie and Larry. Toss in TC in LA and quite a few others that come on this blog just to act like a duck eating popcorn, nodding your heads to each other's brilliance. By the way, that's my opinion, not a lie.

Just another worthless troll who desperately needs to get over himself.

Let me translate 1.94...what Entropy really said was..."Damn, this guy has told the truth in all of his posts. I am too damn lazy to do any research to even try to prove him wrong"

just saying...

Storm- actually, it was Donna who said that. Entropy just acted like one of those fake puppies in the back car window, nodding up and down, saying, "Yup, what she said"

And, as usual, the trolls prove my point. And these two need to get a room...ewww!

Easy yes or no question here, trolls...were the states that made up the Confederacy justified in seceding?

Here is an easier question back at yu, and just as relevant. Which was the better show- the Partridge Family or The Brady Bunch? I looked at topics above, and this seems just as pertinent as your question.

You know the relevance of my question, so you avoid it.

Entropy,

rustynail is too stupid to know that he is doing the same thing he is accusing you of: Entropy just acted like one of those fake puppies in the back car window, nodding up and down, saying, "Yup, what she said" with stormfront. LOL

rustynail will not respond to your question because he can't. He is nothing but a lying troll.

rustynail and stormfront are nothing but idiot trolls.

Now: they think because I am a woman they feel the need to try to respond to my posts in an effort to "bring me down," but in reality they are nothing but punk ass bitches and cowards as well.

And rustynails: you are a liar. and now add coward to the list.

Yes, Karl Rove found a way to get the wealthy an ally when he initiated the "faith" based initiative. Imagine all the those who have been encouraged with our tax dollars to take to the pulpit and preach the Rovian "anti" doctrines: anti-muslim, anti-contraception, anti-obamacare, etc. The faith based initiative pulpit has been a powerful ally in getting Republicans elected to carry out the Koch-Rove agenda.

No, Shooter, fairness is about treating people equitably, not the same way. It is what We The People agree it is, through our elected representatives.

Kevo,#2.1,

Yes, mother nature has a real ally in the T-Party wing of the GOP. The T-Party fight with Carl Rove reminds me of a passage out of C.S. Lewis's THE SCREWTAPE LETTERS, where he describes fighting for dominance amongst the devils in Hell.

You know what you get if you keep scratching the Hemorrhoid, folks.

Petition the Lord with prayer?

"You CANNOT PETITION THE LORD WITH PRAYER!"

- Jim Morrison, the Soft parade

"I am the lizard King I can do anything"

OOOooohhhhh, you guys are bringing me back to the 60s, at least I think so. What I think I "remember" from 1968-1973 may not really be a "memory" in the usual sense of the word. ;-\

"It's all in the mind"

George Harrison Yellow Submarine

Virtual reality. We are the observer of our consciousness. The watcher of our thinker...which is indefinable and only noticed in the present moment when we are not thinking(labeling good or bad, naming, judging etc...just observing), we get a sense of it...of our being and it is like knowing a dream but unable to define it in the world of forms.

btw...If I use the freeway 20 times/day running 20 cars and trucks for profit and Shooter uses it twice a day to the liquor store should we both pay the same amount for its upkeep? Would that be fair...especially since I'm making $2mil/yr and Shooter makes $20k/yr?

You should have taken the blue pill

http://www.simulation-argument.com/simulation.html

A million ways to spend your time

when we get back.

I'll drop a line.

"Crystal Ship"

Re: #4

...when a person is born, give them a birth certificate

Done already

an electronic medical record

Doesn't ACA encourage electronic medical records?

a health savings account.” Carson said. “Too which, money can be contributed pre-tax to the time you’re born to the time you die

That'll work ... except for people who don't have enough income after paying for the essentials - like food shelter. What happens with them?

...when you’re 85 years old and you have six diseases, you’re not trying to spend up everything.

Really? So if I'm old and sick, and I want medical treatment, I am just "trying to spend it all"?

You’re happy to send it on and there’s nobody talking about death panels.

Really? I should be" happy" to just DIE?

What is wrong with just having Health Insurance? Everybody contributes so we have Shared Responsibility. If I stay healthy, I enjoy the benefits of good health. (Kind of like Fire Insurance - I don't complain that my house has never burned down, so I never got money back).

Well we could begin with the fact that no one who actually is influencing policy is talking about "Death Panels" in the first place.

and as for the problem...what happens when you are unable to contribute to that fund?

what about a child who is born with a severe disability or someone who is seriously injured early in life? Say you are 25 and you fall off your roof while cleaning your gutters? Who pays for that then?

I would also ask where the money is sitting until people actually Need it? is it invested? who profits by it? can people draw against that account like savings? Who actually controls the money and decides when it can be accessed? Is this a private enterprise or a public trust?

Whats wrong with this plan? It's an overly simplistic and ill-conceived idea that has a massive and unprecedented capacity for misuse and abuse thats whats wrong with it.

You're putting too much thought into pooters un-thoughtout idea!

Shooter makes about as much sense as using "Fresh Mint" toilet paper.

Joca,

He probably uses extra-strength menthol TP. ;-)

Shooter,

So little kids, with little time and therefore little savings, with medical conditions requiring expensive treatment should be left on a rock to die?

Did it ever occur to you that you are proposing a system that would discourage caring for those with the most economic potential? If we have to triage medical care, I would think old retired guys with nothing better to do than blog all day would get cut off from the system before children.

"Did it ever occur to you that you are proposing a system that would discourage caring for those with the most economic potential?"

I have no doubt he knows that is exactly what he is proposing, and is proposing it quite deliberately.

if you think about it, by the odds there has to be a place where that has already happened...

Now all we really need are directions!

Thanks, Alva, from a fellow mutterer!

Alva, I think muttering is the key, also. If we all muttered together, do you think reason would begin to prevail somewhere in the universe? I'm thinking if a billion of us mutter at once, congress might actually find reason in its ranks.

It's worth a try. Everything else has failed.

This is true: I have a cat which walks up and down the hall in the morning muttering to itself! There are things we will never know...perhaps he is ahead of the curve.

India, you don't suppose that if we all did the Rain Dance long enough, that it would rain, do you?

Alva, I don't know. Are you in a drought situation where you live? If so, I guess we could try.

At the very least we'd be getting some good exercise.

Touché, India. Maybe we shouldn't dance. I'm just glad I'm not having to shovel snow today.

Alva, Ditto on shoveling snow. Those poor folks up in New England really got hit hard. I am not happy with the frequency of these storms, nor the severity. I saw a show on another network called The Coming Storms. We are in for it with this climate change. Congress does not have the political will or sense to act, but I fear they may have already waited too long. The planet is clearly heating up!

We lost our home in 2004 to Hurricane Francis, in FL. We had lived there nearly 20 years. I was glad to move north to PA. Summers down there were getting sci fi hot and there were four hurricanes in 04! Two hit us. I told my husband, enough already! We went through Andrew, also, years ago. This last one was one too many.

We packed up the cat and headed out of Dodge.

The idea, is that you shouldn't get taxed for what you believe. Of course, we made a deal that churches wouldn't be taxed if they agreed not to get involved in politics. I think they've broken that promise a long, long time ago.

Re: #6.1

Some churches have "broken that promise", but most have kept it.

one of these days someone is going to try and game the system by declaring the Stock Exchange a Cathedral and Capital Gains charity.

The government gives tax breaks to all non-profits because they are seen as helping the community, however the presence of religion gives you a leg up on the paperwork required. All you have to do is call yourself a church and you're in. And frankly I don't see much work done in the community from the churches. I know some do, but the majority are nothing more than country clubs who call their dues 'tithes'.

Dragoon21b . . . There are plenty of people on Wall Street who believe that money is a religion unto itself, and that the securities exchanges are places of worship. After all, they worship money above all else, and imbue its accumulation with all kinds of religious overtones.

From there, it's only a short step to eliminating taxes on the gains form the "church's" activities.

Religion is a big business. Look at how many evangelists are wearing expensive suits, driving big cars, have unlimited expense accounts, eat at the best restaurants, etc. None of them want to give up all these perks. I am sure that the IRS can come up with a number or percentage that should be allowed for these items with anything above that being taxed as income. We don't allow business to write a lot of these things off or if we do, they are limited in deduction. Once you take out the perks, it will no longer be attractive for people who want live like kings at the expense of their congregation. Taxation would leave just the lazy leeches who don't want to really work for a living.

mpguy,

"There are plenty of people on Wall Street who believe that money is a religion unto itself"

As far as I'm concerned, so-called "free market capitalism", with its "magic of the marketplace" is definitely a quasi-religion.

ER . . . Especially since so much of its benefit seems to have to be taken on faith.

The Mormon church does pay taxes and no I didn't vote for Romney.

Most churches are not big business. They are struggling financially. Yet they provide a service to the community as many other charitable, non-profits do. Instead of taxing churches, how about taxing the corporations who don't pay any taxes and are shipping jobs overseas. How 'bout going after the uber-rich who evade taxation. IRS stats indicate that over the last decade that would amount to $3 trillion, almost 1/5 of our national debt!

Churches are not taxed by tradition.

The Common Law is based upon medieval traditions. Back in the time of Chivalry and the Black Death, taxation was based upon the ownership of land and people. Church properties were not owned by the King but by the Pope, so the King could not tax them.

Today it would make much more sense for organizations to be taxed on actions, not affiliations. If a church runs a homeless shelter, the property and expenses of the shelter should not be taxed. If a church functions as a social club, where like minded people gather to agree with one another and disparage others, then the church should be taxed.

Amen, LOL!

THE REAL OLD TIME RELIGION
words by many, many people....
(tune: "Old Time Religion" )

(Chorus): Give me that real old time religion (3X)
It's good enough for me!

We will have a mighty orgy
in the honour of Astarte
it'll be a mighty party
and it's good enough for me!

We will all be saved by Mithras
We will all be saved by Mithras
slay the Bull and play the Zithras
on that Resurrection Day!

I hear Valkyries a-comin
In the air their song is comin
they forgot the words! They're hummin!
but they're good enough for me!

We will venerate Bubastis
We will venerate Bubastis
If you want in, then just ask us!
'cause that's good enough for me!

We will all bow down to Enlil
We will all bow down to Enlil
Pass your Cup and get a refill!
With bold Gilgamesh the Brave!

We will all see Aphrodite
Though she's pretty wild and flighty
She will meet us in her nightie
And she's good enough for me!

It was good enough for Loki
It was good enough for Loki
He thinks Thor's a little hokey
and that's good enough for me!

Here's to those who copy Conan
Here's to those who copy Conan
They're just Followers of Onan
and that's good enough for me!

We will have a mighty Party
In the honor of Astarte
Garb your chiton - don't be tardy
'Cause she's good enough for me!

Shall we sing a verse for Venus,
Of the Gods she is the meanest,
Cause she bit me on my...elbow
And it's good enough for me.

We will worship like the Druids,
Drinking strange fermented fluids,
Running naked through the woo-ids,
Coz that's good enough for me.

We will sing a verse for Loki
He's the old Norse god of Chaos
Which is why this verse don't
rhyme or scan or nothin'
But it's good enough for me...

It was good for Thor and Odin
It was good for Thor and Odin
Grab an axe and get your woad on!
and it's good enough for me!

Azahoth is in his Chaos
Azahoth is in his Chaos
Now if only he don't sway us
That is good enough for me!

If you think that you'll be sav-ed
If you think that you'll be sav-ed
If you follow Mogen David
Then that's good enough for me!

We will sing to Lady Isis
She'll stand by us in a crisis
And She hasn't raised Her prices
And She's good enough for me!

There are those who, when they've got e-
Normous problems that are knotty
They just take them to Hecate
And that's good enough for me!

Was a time, so I've heard tell, a
Fine and promising young fella
Gave his all to serve Cybele
But that's damn well not for me!

Well, she raised an awful flurry
When she made the scholars worry
Thank the Gods for Margaret Murray!
She is good enough for me!

We'll sing praises to Apollo
Where the Sun-God leads, I'll follow
From Ionia to Gaul-o
And that's good enough for me!

Let us sing the praise of Horus
As our fathers did before us
We're the New Egyptian Chorus
And we sing in harmony!

It was good enough for Granny
She could throw a double-whammy
That would knock you on your fanny
And she's good enough for me!

We will gather at our saunas
When the spirit comes upon us
To perform the Rites of Faunus
And that's good enough for me!

We will worship mighty Cthulhu
H. P. Lovecraft's big old hoodoo
(1930's fiction voodoo....)
But that's good enough for me!

Oh the Phillistines abound
Oh the Phillistines abound
They had the biggest Baals around
And that's good enough for me!

Oh, our Spirits will awaken
Oh, our Spirits will awaken
Watch the Universe a-quakin'
Which is Gurdijeff to me!

Let us raise a toast to Bacchus,
We will raise a royal ruckus,
Then we'll lay us down and...party
That's good enough for me.

It was good enough for Buddha,
As a god he's kinda cute-a,
And he comes in brass or pewta'
So he's good enough for me!

Uncle Crowley was a dreamer
At the Abbey of Thelema
But his magic is a screamer,
So it's good enough for me.

When the clouds they are a'rumbling
And the thunder is a'grumbling,
Then it's Crowley that you're mumbling,
And it's good enough for me!

There are some that call it folly
When we worship Mother Kali.
She may not be very jolly
But she's good enough for me.

Shall we sing in praise of Loki,
Though he left poor Midgard smokey?
Oh, his sense of humor's hokey,
But he's good enough for me.

Montezuma liked to start out
Rites by carrying a part out
That would really tear your heart out,
But it's good enough for me!

We will all bow down to Allah
For he gave his loyal follow
Ers the mighty petro-dollah
And that's good enough for me!

We will sacrifice to Yuggoth
we will sacrifice to Yuggoth
Burn a candle for Yog-Soggoth
and the Goat With a Thousand Young!

If your rising sign is Aries
You'll be taken by the Fairies
Meet the Buddah in Benares
where he'll hit you with a pie!

There are people into Voodoo
there are people into Voodoo
I know I do, I hope you do!
and it's good enough for me!

We will read from the Kabahlah
We will read from the Kabahlah
It won't get us to Valhalla
But it's good enough for me!

There are some who practice Shinto
there are some who practice Shinto
there's no telling what WE'RE into!
but that's good enough for me!

We will all sing Hare Krishna
We will all sing Hare Krishna
It's not mentioned in the Mishna
But it's good enough for me!

We will all go to Nirvana
We will all go to Nirvana
Make a left turn at Urbana
And you'll see the Promised Land!

There will be a lot of lovin
when we're meetin in our Coven
Quit yer pushin and yer shovin
So there's room enough for me!

It was good enough for Sappho
With her lady on her lap-o
She put Lesbos on the map-o
With her pagan poetry!

Well the Christians all are humming
Cause they say their God is coming,
Our God came three times this evening
And that's good enough for me.

Some guys have a circumcision
On account of their religion,
An embarrassing incision
Cut just ENOUGH from me!

It was good for old Jehovah
He had a son who was a nova!
Hey there, Mithras! Move on ova'!
Another resurrection Day!

It could be that you're a Parsi
It could be that you're a Parsi
Don't need a ticket; you get in free
And that's good enough for me!

Just like Carlos Castenada
Just like Carlos Castenada
It'll get you sooner or later
And that's good enough for me!

Jerry Falwell thinks he's sav-ed
In a lamb's blood he's been lav-ed
And HE thinks that I'M deprav-ed
But that's good enough for me...

We will all bow down to Dagon
We will all bow down to Dagon
He still votes for Ronald Reagan
And that's good enough for me!

Thanks to great Quetzacoatl
And his sacred axolotl
And his gift of chocolatl
And please pass some down to me!

When old Gerald got it goin'
When old Gerald got it goin'
All that hidin' turned to showin'
And that's good enough for me!

When we all bowed down to Nuit
There was really nothin' to it
(Alex Sanders made me do it...)
But that's good enough for me!

We went off to worship Venus
By the Gods! You should have seen us!
Now the Clinic has to screen us...
But that's good enough for me!

It's not good enough for Reagan
It's not good enough for Reagan
He's too square to be a Pagan!
And that's good enough for me!

Meeting at the Witching Hour
By the Bud, and Branch and Flower
Folks are raising up the Power
And that's where I want to be!

In the sky I hear a hummin'
It's the UFO's a-comin'
That's not banjos that they're strummin'
But it's good enough for me!

Oh we all will follow Buddah
Oh we all will follow Buddah
And we'll eat no food but Gouda
Which is Gouda-nuff for me

We'll sing praises to Apollo;
Where the Sun God leads we'll follow
('Though his head's a little hollow) -
He's good enough for me!

We will worship Great Cthulhu,
We will worship Great Cthulhu,
And we'll feed him Mr. Sulu
'Cause that's good enough for me

We all worshipped Dionysus
'Till we ran into a crisis -
The bar had raised its prices;
That's not good enough for me.

We will go and sing "Hosanna"
To our good ol' pal, Gautama,
He will never flim or flam ya',
And that's good enough for me!

Shall we sing a verse for Thor,
Though he leaves the maidens sore?
They always come back for more,
So he's good enough for me!

It was good enough for Odin
Though the tremblin' got forbodin'
Then the giants finally strode in,
But it's good enough for me.

There's that lusty old Priapus -
He's just itching to unwrap us.
(He'd do more to us than tap us
And that's good enough for me!)

It's the Opera written for us
We will all join in the chorus
it's the Opera about Boris
which is Godunov for me.....!

MORE REAL OLD TIME RELIGION VERSES

I was singing Hari Rama
With my friend the Dalai Lama
'Til they dumped us in the slamma
But that's good enough for me

One-eyed Odin we will follow
And in fighting we will wallow
Till we wind up in Valhallow
Which is good enough for me!

Hare Krishna gets a laugh on
When he sees me dressed in saffron
With my hair that's only half on
But that's good enough for me!

We will pray with those Egyptians
Build pyramids to put our crypts in
Cover subways with inscriptions,
which is good enough for me.....!

We will pray to Zarathustra
And we'll pray just like we usta
I'm a Zarathustra boosta!
And that's good enough for me!

I'll arise at early mornin'
When the Sun gives me the warnin'
That the Solar Age is dawnin'
And that's good enough for me!

We will venerate Bubastis
'Cause my cat walked up and ast us
(Now the cat box is DISASTROUS!)
But it's good enough for me!

Call Him God, or call him Allah
The priest will take your dollah
Easy living from -your- follah-
-wers, but sorry, -not- from me!

I'll sing some songs to Lilith,
Not so young, and not so girlish,
and She's always PMS-ish,
but She's good enough for me!

And what about this Bacchus,
Who lives just to raise a ruckus?
Loosens women so they'll **** us,
Well, that's good enough for me!

Now Danae was sweet as flowers,
She was into golden showers;
And that showed her Zeus' powers
And that's good enough for me!

Lilith wears a lacy nightie
And She is a little flighty
She will get you all excite-y
She's wet-dream enough for me!

Diana is a little spikey
And she is a little dyke-ey
You don't have to be a Psych-e
To know that's right for me!

OMG, David. Now I know what you've been doing for the past two months!

How does that, "Let the good times roll" go again?

India...

I didn't write those lyrics... A lot of filk singers over the decades did...

For example...

Let the good times roll? Laissez les bons temps rouler...

Filk singers - that is just too cool!! I love it!! Thanks for the link to that site!

On-Line Religion

Words: © 1995 by Tom Smith

Music: "Old Time Religion" (trad.)

This idea jelled January 4, 1995, after seeing that Cardinal John O'Connor of New York was on Prodigy, in a New York Times story which started, "Gimme that on-line religion." I recalled that earlier in the week I'd heard about a brand-new on-line confessor program. Well, shucks. You don't have to hit me on the head.

All you hacker types who whine
You spend too much time on-line
To connect with the Divine, well,
There's some software you should see.

It'll only function in those
Systems not in corporate limbos:
Pearly Gates for Stained-Glass Windows --
Boot up God on your P.C.

(Chorus)
Gimme that on-line religion,
Gimme that on-line religion,
Gimme that on-line religion,
It's God, Revision 3.

It was Cardinal O'Connor
Out defending Catholic honor,
But I wish that he'd been on our
Service, not on Prodigy.

(Chorus)

Those with sexual repression
Now can e-mail their confession,
Get absolved in that same session,
And do penance virtually.

(Chorus)

Every good and pious hacker
Goes to Heaven -- every slacker
Is an unarmored attacker
In the beta-test Doom 3.

(Chorus)

If you're an Amiga boaster,
Stick the Eucharist in the Toaster,
Pull it out, use as a coaster,
Or send in to Fish PD.

(Chorus)

Though they often try to hide us,
We all have Intel inside us,
But should Pentium divide us,
Well, that's close enough for them.

(Chorus)

There are lurkers in the Usenet
Who have not heard the Good News yet,
When I think of them, I do sweat,
Each one's a potential troll.

(Chorus)

There's a World Wide Web of pages,
That's grown up in several stages,
It may not be Rock of Ages,
But it's good ol' Rock and Roll.

(heavy-metal band)
Gimme that On-Line Religion,
Gimme that On-Line Religion,
Gimme that On-Line Religion,
It's God, and God is ME!

("What the heck was that?"
"I have not a clue....")

Point and click on your Mosaic,
Yes, it surely is prosaic,
Tour the Vatican or Passaic,
In the heart of New Jersey.

Phoning Down to New Jersey, me boys,
Phoning Down to New Jersey...

Keeping track of those addresses
Is the toughest of life's messes,
And one thing I must confess is,
URL-bound, wait and see.

(chorus)

Though the 'Net still coughs and wheezes,
There's so much out there to please us,
Give your mouse over to Jesus,
Get to Heaven -- FTP!

(chorus, twice with big finish)

Extra Verses

A lot of these refer to defunct technologies, and should bring a nostalgic tear to your eye,
except in the case of Microsoft's Bob, which should cross your eyes remembering it --
a system interface on top of the Windows interface, which runs on top of MS-DOS,
which runs on top of the actual machine code -- and the Packard-Bell Service Department,
which should induce nearly terminal heartburn.

If your eyes are getting starry
For the Jaguar from Atari,
It's just fast Nintendo -- sorry,
Do the math, you're number three.

The accountants all look stricken,
Microsoft has purchased Quicken,
Now the manual will thicken
By at least an inch or three.

Well, the Macintosh Performa
Makes disgruntled users warmer,
They bought first, and now they form a
Line to upgrade -- they're RISC-free.

Packard Bell does not deserve us,
All us owners are too nervous
To spend weeks on hold with Service
And invoke the warranty.

IBM will OS/Warp us,
But we'll need a habeas corpus
To find any need or purpose
For non-morons owning "Bob."

CompuServe has got in messes
With numerical addresses,
And my memory regresses --
Is that Sysop, Friend, or ME?

GEnie's front end is Aladdin,
As I couch my terms, a bad 'un,
Half the menu stuff is paddin'
And the rest, upholstery.
(I said I was couching my terms.)

A.O.L. is kinda spiffy,
But the interface is iffy,
And they don't have that much Sci-Fi (in this case, pronounced "skiffy"),
And they're nothing close to free.

Those with Beemers in their garages
Are the Prodigy old codgers,
It's an on-line Mister Rogers
For the average dense yuppie.

And the Infobahn is humming,
All our fingertips are drumming,
As new verses start a-coming,
Why not send 'em on to me?

Use computers (option: heaven);
Please post no more than eleven,
I'm T-dot-Smith One-Two-Seven
At GEnie Geis Com -- WHEEE!

This would require that the IRS show enough backbone and courage to go after well-heeled institutions with the same vigor it demonstrates against small, powerless, middle-income individual taxpayers.

Don't hold your breath.

I remember a time when the mere mention of an IRS audit caused great consternation...now...not so much...

They always forget that part of the bible.

On a separate note regarding the Rev Rob Morris:

No one should ever feel the need to apologize for acting out of compassion and generosity of spirit and particularly not to people who evidently have very little of either.

Is it me ...or did you just compare Republicans to the Romans and Hussein to Jesus?

Scott...

Maybe I was just pointing out that some people are behaving badly, and that based on the things they seem to insist they know better than everyone else...they should know better.

Dragoon,

I have no doubt that they do know better, but choose to "behave badly" (understatement!) because they enjoy doing so.

I was trying to be "charitable"...that's one of those...what are they called again...virtues? Something like that.

I like your thinking. But when has the church ever apologized for anything ? Whenever they are caught in a contradiction they cope-out and claim to be have been possessed by the devil. Wasn’t me. Not my bad. It was his fault. Mikey did it.

He's called Isa in Arabic - he's also praised by Mohamed in the Koran.

The Buddhist Saint Issa

Ironic, isn't it? A guy with a name like Mullet goes beard-and-hair-cutting! :D

It's also ironic that Mitt Romney got off scot-free for doing the very same thing.

Samuel Mullet Sr. got 15 years for cutting hair and beards. Hmm. I'm thinking about that awful hair cut I got from a beautician in PGH. I'd like to see him do three years at least. I figure he had to hate me to do that!

Does that qualify as a hate crime since I am not Amish? Maybe he hates Catholics?

Wow you have been busy this week!

I always wondered why exactly anyone would feel the need to carry a gun to Church...it would seem to contradict the purpose.

and good for the Phelps sisters...they will be needing therapy...lots and lots of therapy

Dear Russell, I think Dragoon21b is right. This is going to take me all day !! Also may I sit next to you so I can copy off you? I need to get my grade point average up.

* What if the only place you Could have a gun is in Church and no where else? We could have a combination Church and shooting range. Anyone really believe our murder rates would drop?

Thanks Russell. I looked at your profile and geezo;

There's a "here's someone who has though" link in everyone's profile,,, that kinda makes it look like that person loves rightys. The Newsvine page is full of it.

<3 Russell!

"Wow you have been busy this week!"

@Dragoon

well, as they say "idle hands are the devil's play ground."

at the very least, all this cut and paste keeps me out of the pool room....

Yes!

Thank YOU Mego-516015! ^5 Yes, indeed! There is another clip from that same episode of 'West Wing' in which 'President Bartlet' just excoriates the female (ahem) 'holy roller' and challenges her bona fides and Bible knowledge. If I can find that clip, I'll post it back here.

-bleuz00m

Not only that, but just think how embarrassing it is for our poor religious folk. I mean having to lessen to reason so early in the morning during breakfast? That must be nearly intolerable for them.

what makes you believe ANYTHING he has said has been well reasoned to begin with?

You would know if you hadn't been cutting class. Next time bring a note from your mother...and don't try to be tricky and think you can give me a fake one I know what Shooters handwriting looks like

More like pander breakfast.

Can I have a little maple syrup on my pander cakes please? I think what peeves them off most is Obama is just too nice. He respects that everyone has the right to be wrong. He must think he is president of all the people in America and that all must have a voice. I know religion does not think that way. Silly founding-fathers. What did they know?

Re pander cakes...

The crap the President has had to put up with would drive a man to either pray or drink.

I don't think he is drinking, therefore I don't think he is pandering.

Dear John, ( no pun intended )

The true job as President of America sucks. But somebody’s got to do it. Heck we put a traveling-salesman in there for eight years. The job sucks.

One more example of the oddly bigoted LCMS attitude -- and the major reason I'm ELCA instead of LCMS.

the biggest problem with virtually all organized religions is they they by definition must begin with the claim that they have cornered the market on universal truth...

I was very surprised to read Dr. Ben Carson gave a speech at the National Prayer Breakfast. He is a Seventh-Day Adventist, and Seventh-Day Adventists believe that those who worship on Sunday bear the mark of the beast, and that the Sunday worshipers will one day take over the US government and align with the Pope to create a world-wide government that will persecute and put to death all those who worship on the seventh-day Sabbath.

A man from the Seventh-Day Adventists, who lent his voice to support the evangelical Christians who are in the US government, gets no censure from his church but a Lutheran is forced to apologize for worshiping with those of other faiths?

What in the world is happening?

At last check...Women DO make their own reproductive choices...Churches BELIEVE Life to be sacred...you have the right to your view, but churches do not? And same sex couples can do whatever they wish to do...EXCEPT call their intended union "Marriage" as that IS a religious term, and WHY does the LGBT community feel it has some kind of right to infringe upon what is obviously a religious concept and term. Domestic unions can hold all the same benefits as what religious types term "Marriage". Why should the LGBT community look to force their views upon churches? And perhaps you could enlighten me as to what it is about choosing to have deviant sex that classifies the LGBT community as a "Minority"? I have yet to even get a response(much less a good one) to that question which is a serious one.

Monk

You know I love your posts...but I think you should have changed one word in it...

Instead of "Freedom" just say "Power" and you nailed it.

Liberty, freedom and rights aren't zero sum things...you don't gain them at the expense of other peoples but along with other peoples.

Power on the other hand...that my friend is always in limited supply

Not just power, but privilege. Sometimes it's about whose in charge, and sometimes it's about who is special. If women are empowered to make their own reproductive choices, then men and religious institutions lose the power to choose for them. If same-sex couples are allowed to marry, different-sex relationships cease to be uniquely privileged. Power and privilege are zero-sum games, and you are correct in pointing out that rights aren't. The other side may use words like 'rights' and 'liberty' and 'freedom' but they don't use them in the senses most people recognize. Someone should make a right-wing decoder ring.

I think I found mine at the bottom of a Box of Coco-puffs...

Christian economics? Really? I do not think these terms go together.

Ok angeleno213. very funny.

So Christianity looks exactly like 1930s communist USSR. Wait a minute, that should make the church super far-left. So why are they all on the, ( we-will-treat-you-to-get-ahead ) GOP far-far right if they are communist ? Or did I just answer my own question?

After you describe it in such detail...I'm disgusted too....*Hoo Boy*

You are disgusting, skkkottie, that's for sure.

I can't fault any atheist or agnostic for following a party line or just wanting to fit in. We're the new homosexuals. Forced into the closet. I would never tell an employer/potential employer my non beliefs and it sure isn't a good idea for a politician that might want to serve beyond the term they let it known. It's sad to be sure but it's true. Even the people that do know I'm atheist don't let up, thinking they have some goddamn right to try to preach the word and try to convert me through their dribble.

Hey, Steve Benen...yes, you. Don't you ever feel ashamed of yourself for allowing hatemongers like "scott" to spew verbal vomit all over your threads? Not even a little? It's all very well to post these articles, but you ought to stop and think about how badly you undercut your efforts by allowing numerous trolls to use these threads as a rhetorical toilet.

As much as I disagree with the Republicans like "Scott" but he has a right to express his opinion just as Steve Benen, you and I do.

There is a big difference between expressing an honest opinion and maliciously acting as a political/religious smut peddler, but evidently you choose to ignore that difference.

@Entropy

Steve almost certainly doesn't read the comments let alone monitor them. Someone at the MaddowBlog does, as I've seen comments deleted and commenters banned but I don't know who does that or how to contact them.

In the meantime, if you think a comment has no value or is inflammatory, click on the "!" box right next to the arrow.

Well, whoever reads the threads can and should relay what I said to Mr. Benen. And clicking on that silly "!" box is by no means a remedy for those who, as a matter of standard policy, go out of their way to spread malicious misinformation. "Free speech" absolutists are inordinately fond of pretending otherwise, but "freedom of speech" is not absolute.