Among the new revelations in tonight's documentary about how the Bush administration convinced the American people to go to war in Iraq are newly declassified talking points and handwritten notes from November, 2001 in which can be seen then-Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld's team trying to find the most compelling reason to justify war.
Hubris co-author Michael Isikoff explains:
By late November, Rumsfeld was meeting with Gen. Tommy Franks, Centcom commander, to plot the “decapitation” of the Iraqi government, according to the now declassified talking points agenda from the sessions (shown on television for the first time in the documentary). The talking points suggest that Rumsfeld and his team were grappling with a tricky issue: “How [to] start?” the war. In other words, what would the pretext be? Various scenarios were outlined: “US discovers Saddam connection to Sept. 11 attack or to anthrax attacks?” reads one of them. “Dispute over WMD inspections?” reads another. “Start now thinking about inspection demands.”
See the documents yourself after the jump.
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How cold-blooded! And when they decided to attack Afganistan, my first thought was that Afganistan has been the downfall of empires for many years, most recently the British Empire (19th century) and the Russian Empire (20th century), both of which looked very strong for a while. Is the American "Empire" next?
I also remember thinking that invading Iraq was a very stupid thing to do, especially since all of Saddam's rhetoric was bluffing his neighbors to keep them (especially Iran) from invading. All you needed to do was study the general politics of the area, no special intelligence required.
with all due respect--
The British Empire in no way fell because of Afghanistan. They retreated out of there pretty quick.
It almost went bankrupt in WWI and again in WWII. But, that is just a symptom of the real reason.
It "fell" because its share of world manufacturing did not grow as fast as Germany's, the US's and other's. It did not integrate the colonies into the whole fast enough. It allowed the British labor movement to slow growth.
I read once that in the UK, around 1900, when managemnet said, "let's work together to make this process work better." Labor said, "No." But, in the US, workers would make suggestions on how to improve things even if it meant in the short run, some would lose their jobs.
In WWII labor in the UK did not respond the way US labor did. In US, "Don't you know there is a war on," was a reason to get it done faster while in UK it was a reason why it would take longer.
I'm not saying that workers should be cooperative slaves. I'm saying that if the society can motivate all the people to work for the common good [here wartime productivity] that the nation will be stronger. The question is how to motivate them.
The current Repubs have the same disdain for the workers that the nobles in UK had, the UK fell from 1st place, draw your own conclusion.
I think the first commenter misspoke: Afghanistan didn't bring about the "downfall" of the entire British and Roman Empires; however, the battle-hardened tribal fighters of Afghanistan did ultimately defeat the armies of Britain and the Soviet Union due to their culture and Afghanistan's geography.
Has anyone stopped to ask why this is coming up in the conversation now? Let's don't get fooled again and let's look hard at why this subject matter has been raised and what it is covering up this time. Yes, we were fooled or at least some were fooled by the items indicated so why don't we ask why we are going over this subject again, at this very moment? Could it be the drone attacks? Could it be the physical cliff debate? Could be the immigration issue? This is a good example of why we can't trust these people and so you have to ask yourself why have they stirred his up now since they have been available since 2006
Nano Thermite is ? You know? It is a product NOT commercially available to anyone because it is a secret weapon developed by the U.S.
It was found in the dust from WTT's after they were demolished on 9/11/2001. How did it get there? What was the motive for the wars against Afghanistan and Iraq is the answer.
The greatest act of treason ever committed by leaders of a nation against its own people to start a war for profit, control of oil reserves, and power over foreign populations in U.S. history... If we just posit the possibility that the explosive that burns at more than 5000 degrees F. and is ONLY in the possession of the U.S. military and or CIA (who were housed in World Trade Tower # 7 that came down the same day World Trade Towers 1 & 2 came down) have, then can we feel secure with government corruption by special interests that made this all happen? Just presume the facts are true:
Google:
Architects & Engineers for 9/11 Truth
Just consider who benefits from what happened, and not what you were told to believe.
War is the most profitable industrial corporate business on the planet: materialism VS Humanism. The conservatives(Rich and Powerful individuals controlling corporate profits from war, energy, manufacturing, and intellectual property to broadcasting content control benefited from 9/11. Who else?
Corruption of government by corporate control is fascism, as defined by Mussolini.
The first THREE steel buildings to collapse from fire in the history of the world, and hundreds of steel buildings have burned in fires MUCH HOTTER than the World Trade Towers and not fallen down, collapsed on 9/11/2001.
Osama Bin Laden was used (as the US population was played and manipulated by the corporate media i.e. Fixed News) as a CIA pawn (Lee Harvey Oswald style) to blame the collapse on and direct the attention away from a REAL SCIENTIFIC examination of the steel and buildings. They were removed and the steel was sent to China for recycling. Steel melts at 2700 to 3200 degrees and burning jet fuel with black smoke or low oxygen burns at less than 1000 degrees F and probably didn't get over 650 degrees.
Check out the work of Dr. Steven Jones on the metallurgy and color of pouring liquid metal that shows iron flows from the towers before they fell. Impossible from a jet fuel fire. He also did the first work on the thermite chips found in the dust.
Architects & Engineers for 9/11 Truth
The theater of the bush regime and the players are war crimes. We must prosecute these criminals or international law and treason means nothing.
Put these cretons in jail. Bush and Cheney are war criminals with government pensions and protection. What irony.
To add to the comment...over 2 million soldiers trained and back in US with a substantial portion of those trained in IED's; tactics; and sniper training... ? Good luck Bush and Cheney when they find out you screwed them!
PS: Oh they won't let Cheney out of the country because he is wanted internationally for MURDER. Look it up Rednecks! I assume you can read as well as you fire a gun!
I remember reading about how Rumsfeld used Biblical passages to justify what the US forces would do to the Iraq forces.
Bush was emboldened by knowing that the Old Testament was for the war. God made it clear that we had to defend Israel. Right -Wing Christian Zionists led by Hagee were huge supporters of the invasion of Iraq.
I like Zakaria 12 verse 9: And it shall come to pass in that day that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.
We really shouldn' be wallowing in past History, we need to be able to adapt to all the changes, and rewrite History, maybe we need Herstory. The book is never finished, World without end, Amen.
President GW Bush should have studied Roman history instead.
The Roman Emperor Trajan conquered the Parthian Empire and occupied present day Iraq. Trajan is generally not considered to be the best emperor ever.
The best emperor ever is generally considered to be the one that followed Trajan, Emperor Hadrian. Why? Because Emperor Hadrian pulled the army out of Iraq.
Even then it was a snake pit.
That would be the same Hadrian who a built a wall- same as the Chinese did- to keep the heathens out of their civilized world. How's that work out, for both of 'em?
The sheer disgusting magnitude of this story as compared to the current so-called Benghazi scandal is pretty enlightening.
Day,
Yep, the same guy. Except his wall worked -- it kept the Picts out.
Civil war over 200 years later caused the provincial commander to pull all the professional soldiers off the wall and out of the province in order to march on Rome in an attempt to win the crown. The commander lost, he and his troops were killed, and the provincial native warlord Vortigern invited the Saxons to serve as mercenaries to keep order in Britain.
Vortigern apparently failed to pay the Saxons in a timely fashion, plunging Britain into a civil war which featured a heroic general named 'Arthur'.
But the wall still kept the Picts out.
Or that wall kept the English to the South... depending on your perspective. LOL
Well, since the English manned the wall after the Romans left...
(My ancestors fled every part of the British Isles in the 1600's, so I can envision the wall defending Roman Britain-England or helping prevent the peasants from fleeing their Roman or English or Norman overlords.)
For those unaware, the Picts were not the Scots. The Scots were originally from the Isle of Lesser Britain (Ireland) and invaded the island of Greater Britain north of the wall during the Dark Ages in cooperation with Anglo-Saxon England as part of a final campaign to get rid of the Picts.
Seems the Picts were considered a problem by everyone that came in contact with them. They gave red hair to the British Isles though.
All you needed to do was study the general politics of the area, no special intelligence required.
This wasn't about "intelligence" in either sense of the word. It was about a political agenda. From what I have heard, the intelligence community was in general against it with the general consensus being that it was going to be a win for Iran. They were right, it has been.
Reading this memo, it is hard to believe the war was not contrived by the Administration.
That would make it a War of Aggression on the part of the United States.
After the Second World War we hanged people as war criminals for 'Waging a War of Aggression'.
Bush used the term "preemptive strike" regarding Iraq. Can you imagine any other power getting away with launching a "preemptive strike"?
I know we have to put it behind us, but the architects of the war in Iraq are still influential. How can the main foreign policy strategist for Mitt Romney have anyone take him seriously? His job was to lie to the press. The cast of characters are all rogues.
Paul Wolfowitz, Douglas Feith, Richard Perle, David Wurmser, Eliot Abrams, Donald Rumsfeld, Dick Cheney, Paul Bremer, Kenneth Adelman, and more than anyone else Dan Senor.
The American people need to learn about the 1996 White paper called "Clean Break"
We cannot afford to put this behind us until it is crystal clear that those who would rewrite history are simply liars.
Provide a link. And many of us do understand and want justice. And while America tries to disarm us because as Obama states "does not want the powres that be "out gunned" maybe now you understand we "ain't gonna give up so easy"! Gingrich and crew had congress pass a law that any Fed employee lying before a Grand Jury would be guilty of "obstruction of justice" and grabbing Clinton. The DOD had scenarios on how to invade Iraq. So this started long before the war--the planning in the CIA and the AEI and I suspect AIPAC also.
What amazes me is how the US influences the UN and how well Clinton has regained our influence with them. The UN now has become a puppet in the world eyes and has no respect. And Obama did nothing to regian that:Guitmo; drones; rule of law; etc. Many political scientist rate him right of center?!
In reading "State of Denial" by Bob Woodward which was published during Bush's presidency, I remember noting a relayed conversation that outlined Bush's plan to wage war with Iraq even before he was actually president. I've got to pull that book out and reread it.
I'm really looking forward to tonight!
Me too, that was a great book.
You guys are going to laugh at me for saying this, but when Saddam put a mosaic of President Bush 41 on the floor of the hotel next to the airport in Baghdad that all foreign correspondents stayed at in the '90s when Clinton was president, that made getting back at him personal. There was also an assassination attempt.
Dubya came into the presidency with a mission that needed a pretext.
I have pointed out that here in the US if there were a legal dispute between Saddam and anyone, and GW Bush were in the jury pool; then he would be excused because he thought Saddam tried to kill his father.
GW should not have been allowed to be "the decider" about war with Iraq.
Steve there are reports that on day 1, W spoke about getting Saddam.
"Sadaam Hussein tried to kill my dad!" Yeah, he had an agenda.
"Dubya came into the presidency with a mission that needed a pretext"
This recalls one of the most prescient quotes from Rachel in the doc : "Motive awaits opportunity"
@ 7.2, 7.3, 7.4
Thank you, all.
My favorite pretext for war came from the Downing Street memos, which reported that Bush suggested to Blair that the US paint a U-2 spyplane in UN colors, then fly it into Iraq so that it could be shot down. The US would then claim that the attack on the bogus UN plane was an act of war. Of course the pilot would be dead, but that is small cost to pay for a really, really neato keano war, right?
You need to move to Hollywood. They are lost for good movie ideas. I may even pay to see a movie like that. A documentary ? Ok even a documentary.
I wish I was making that up, but I'm not. It came straight from the Downing Street memos. We like to think of our politicians as morons, but they are often just as devious as they are stupid.
As a veteran of the Iraq War, I am deeply disappointed in the presentation of this so-called documentary. Nothing about the resignation of a Bush cabinet member over the per-arranged invasion of Iraq, nothing about the Downing Street Memos that made huge news in Britain in 2002, nothing about the outing of CIA agent Plame as a result of her husband going public against the war because of the outright lies of the yellow cake that he, himself, found to be illegitimate. Richard Clark has written a book with far more damning information, but he is nowhere to be found for an interview today. I found the presentation very weak. Frontline could have (and have) done a better job. In my opinion, Most of the Bush Administration should be in jail for the cumulative crimes against humanity they have caused.
amen brother.
thank you for you service to all americans.
you dont have to love your government - - just love your country.
What is truly, deeply and genuinely sad and tragic to me as an American is that we like to think of our country as a beacon of liberty and justice in the world. This just demonstrates how much of a lie that actually is.
None of the people responsible for this will ever be so much as inconvenienced or react with anything beyond mild amusement by the idea that they could be brought to justice to stand trial for the death and destruction they are responsible for.
We condemn other nations around the globe as supporters of terrorism or as havens for the corrupt and the criminal but here we have world class monsters among us and we reward them by letting them be political contaminators and resident "Experts" while we fill gardens of stone and let grass covers the cost others paid for their fame.
Amen
I am really looking forward to seeing this documentary tonight. Thanks, Dr. Maddow, for putting this on. I remember very well that March night when we all saw what they meant by "shock and awe". It was truly chilling. I remember exactly where I was sitting and everything when I watched that.
Dragoon, #9 IMO,
The United States lost that particular moral high ground on August 6th, 1945.
If we really want to see the problem, the occasional look in the mirror would help America a great deal.
I don't think it's the mirror we need to look into because in all honesty it's the people of this country that have the problem. It's the way we are sold bills of goods and who we allow to wag the dog. Most people would if they knew the truth be after these people with torches and pitchforks but unfortunately before we can get to that point someone somewhere throws out another shiny object to grab our attention.
The other thing is that the people who live in the either of this level of power are so insulated from anything approaching justice that they are effectively immune from real life...Dick Cheney could pull out a gun and shoot Bob Schieffer in front of Sunday morning America and he would get off scot-free. I don't mean that as any sort of disrespect to Bob Schieffer but just as a simple truth and current reality.
Some people are simply beyond the rule of law or even those of common human decency
Too many Americans are xenophobes who wrap themselves in the flag and their religion, crying that this is the greatest country in the world and other countries are second rate. I even had a relative, when I questioned going into Iraq, who said that it's just as well, because we need their oil. I was disgusted, more so because so many other people think the same thing.
Dragoon,#9.4 Those people have a name: The elite.
I have this book called, With Liberty And Justice For Some. That's pretty much the story.
August 6th 1945. And then the Second Bomb.
Yes, American moral values fell below the floor that day. Yes we had burned millions to death in any night of our fire bombings of Japanese cities. But that cost alot of money and people. But now we had a way to kill you with money alone. There is a rumor that the second nuke may have been intentionally dropped off of target a bit. So only 50,000 died instantly, rather then the maximum of millions possible.
A friend of mind married a Japanese girl and they came to visit me one day. I had just finished a book of building designer Frank Loyd Wright. I tryed to impress her with the fact that Wright had build an earth quake prouf building in Japan and if she had ever seen it? She gently informed me that Amerca bombed it flat in WWII. ....ouch....
I am not going to debate the morality or ethics of bombing Japan during WWII not because I don't think they are worth discussing but because in this case I think they are under completely and radically different circumstances.
In the case of using atomic weapons against Japan, we were at the time and for several years had already been in a state of formally declared war against a country that had attacked us.
In the case of Iraq none of those things were true.
War is never genuinely "moral" and is only rarely even modestly "Ethical" but once you are there you have to deal with that reality...in this case we weren't and we shouldn't have been taken there.
In other words, once the baseball game has started, you can not just walk off the playing field and go home ?
Unless we want to bring back slavery, all modern wars will produce only losers, there will be no winners. America loves winners. Why keep playing this hopeless game ??
pondering,
I did a paper on those bombings when I was in school. I have always believed we dropped those bombs on an already defeated country. Our incendiary bombs had already wiped out Tokyo, and their forces were reduced to Kami Kazi squads. A lot of people blame the Emperor for his refusal to surrender, but I believe we should have waited a bit before dropping that first A-bomb.
As Oppenheimer stated so well, when he quoted the Bagavadghita, "Now I am become Death, destroyer of worlds."
It's not that you can't quit but it's a whole different set of rules...literally a whole different ball game
Dear India LeCarre, I like your thinking. but you mean second bomb , right ?
For if you believe we could have done without the first bomb then you do not believe war has any real value!? America, we love our wars !! just saying...
Pondering 2
well the ones we think we won any way.
No, I do not believe we should have dropped either bomb.
I am not much of an American then, I hate war. Who are the winners in war?
What instrument do you play in your band?
India LeCarre #9.3
When you talk of August 6, 1945, you must remember that the Bomb was just a piece of ordinance with a bigger bang until it was used. The full extent of the Bomb's horror was not known until after Japan's surrender and Americans could get on the ground in Hiroshima and Nagasaki. The world owes the people of Hiroshima and Nagasaki an immense debt of gratitude for enduring this ordeal because we found out before the Bomb was in mass production just how horrific these weapons are and they have not been used since.
India,
You might want to read about the planning for Operation Downfall. Truman would have been impeached or more likely shot if the American public found out we had a weapon that could end the war and he allowed as many as 1,000,000 US casualties to occur. I would hope that you would have researched a bit more before presenting a college paper. The Japanese had 10,000 planes, 350 midget submarines, 400 manned torpedo's and 800 suicide boats.
They had a total of 60 divisions 14 on Kyushu where the initial invasion would take place that is 400,000 combat troops plus 4 armored brigades. The Japanese plan was to make the invasion so costly that they could force an armistice. If you double the accepted casualty figures for Hiroshima and Nagasaki they do not equal the estimated casualties for US troops alone. The low estimates for Japanese deaths alone are 5,000,000 with double that in casualties. None of this even touches on the possibility of the Red Army attacking from the more lightly defended North an a partition of Japan.
Nuclear warfare is a horror but the bombing of Japan probably limited casualties 20 fold and kept the country as one nation.
jkh
My research does not seem to be in concert with yours, but I no longer have all those old papers. Appreciate the response. It was thoughtful and clear. Thanks.
Jim,
Your points are valid, but one must keep in mind that the US could have embargoed the home islands of Japan to force surrender. Japan was not and could not be food self-sufficient AND produce munitions for the war. They had to import food or starve.
(Chemical fertilizer and high explosives are dependent upon the same chemical feedstock -- ammonia. For this reason ammonia factories were prime bombing targets.)
One must also keep in mind that the US had a very real interest in demonstrating the ability to destroy cities. Not to the Emperor of Japan, but to Stalin.
As the Red Army was poised to enter the German homeland the USSR let us know that the provisional government for the Soviet zone would be in Dresden. Shortly before the Red Army could take the city the US army air-corp expended considerable effort and resources to erase Dresden, a city of negligible importance to the German war effort, from the face of the Earth.
Dresden, Hiroshima, and Nagasaki seemed to have left an impression on Stalin. Uncharacteristically, he honored his agreements on the partition of Germany, even ordering the Red Army to retreat from territory beyond the previously agreed upon stop line.
Well the fact that he was looking into the teeth of Patton's army and that they had already made raids into Czechoslovakia might have had a little something to do with his decision making process too...
Except - Japan was actively TRYING to surrender. Unfortunately for it, it had a condition - it wanted to keep its Emperor. The US refused to accept the surrender unless it was an (unprecedented in history) unconditional surrender.
Japan refused to do that.
The US dropped the bombs.
Japan unconditionally surrendered.
Japan was allowed to keep its Emperor.
The war would not have continued with a million more US casualties had the US been willing to accept Japan's surrender the first time. Instead, we "had" to drop two A-bombs and destroy two Japanese cities and kills 10s of thousands of Japanese people before we were willing to accept their surrender.
That had nothing whatsoever to do with "Japan would have kept fighting and hurt us a whole lot if we had not used the A-bombs". We voluntarily, unnecessarily CHOSE to use them - for reasons that have never been publicly admitted.
Wait a minute... Do you think some Talking Points were changed? To START A WAR? OH MY! Where is Lindsey Graham when you (really!) need him?
(clutches pearls; heads for the fainting couch)
Marko, I had a feeling Lindsay Graham wore pearls.
Oh, you mean you! LOL
Yes, that was actually me. In my best imitation of the gentleman from South Carolina ;-)
LOL,
Isn't that called "the vapors"? :)
You get the "vapors" when you're my age and have no estrogen.
What Lindsay's having is the "spells."
That boyfriend needs to come out, yo.
knobson,
Yes, I see. It does seem that Graham has enough estrogen. I am not as certain about testosterone.
I really believed that the American people and ESPECIALLY CONGRESS wouldn't be tricked by the vague, baseless justification for going into Iraq. Imagine my shock when they bit like a big ol' fish. I was gobsmacked and remain so today.
None of it could have happened without a compliant and neutered media. I can't recall a single MSM "journalist" who questioned the "information" that came out of the White House. Perhaps it was because the media is really just an arm of the entertainment division of most networks now, and their main function is to bring in advertising bucks to be profitable. As we see even now, the media is quick to pounce on so many dem ideas by filling the airwaves with repubs like McCain and Graham and Ryan. We certainly didn't see the same in the runup to the war in Iraq. All we got was endless interviews with Rumsfeld, Rice, Cheney and the rest of the war machine, stoking the flames by repeating the same old lies, over and over...."Iraq was involved in 9-11", "Iraq has WMD", "Iraq has drones that can hit the US"....the littany of lies would make Goebbels swell with pride. This can happen again, folks. Fortunately, the odds of a repub residing in the White House ever again fade with every bit of lunacy that pours out of their mouths.
#11,a60Texasgirl,
The right wing of this country has been in love with war for a very long time. I was not surprised that they persuaded the country to endorse it. The Republicans are excellent in the art of propaganda.
And they have Fox and Rush to help things along.
gobsmacked?
me too.
I am from Massachusetts. I've never been a big fan of Ted Kennedy, but I'll give him credit. He was one of the few in Congress who voted NOT to go to war in Iraq. Kerry (our next sec of state) of course followed the lemmings and voted for war. Idiot.
Kathy,
I don't know how the GOP has managed to rewrite history so well. A majority of democratic legislators including Senator Kennedy who is by the way one of my favorites. The vote in the House on the Democratic side was 82 yes 126 Nay 1 no vote. In the Senate it was 29 yes 21 nay even while being completely lied to. The GOP legislators voted 263 yes 3 nay. No matter what tripe the GOP trots out they own the debacle that is Iraq if it was up to democrats it would have had no chance of getting out of the House.
jkh
So now we are looking down the rabbit hole, and we don't like what we see. How far down that rabbit hole do we want to look? What might we find?
I AM LOST FOR WORDS!! And my one regret today is that I am out of the country and will miss The Rachel Maddow Show tonight! But I will be "tuned in" online to the extent possible....Rachel is a journalist that truly does amazingly important work and reporting to the American people. She is fearless and the research behind her stories meticulous. I congratulate her and her staff! Thank you, Rachel, for reporting on this story and for the work you do on critical issues that are often ignored by other journalists.
David Corn and Micheal Issikoff deserve the lion's share of our thanks as well since they are the ones who wrote the book that leads to tonight's doc. Both men are rapidly becoming my heroes for not only only breaking the most important stories but having the most in depth analysis as well.
You got it bad ? I have band practice tonight. I have the DVR set to begin recording one hour ahead and two after.
A good friend of mine was the assistant to the General at Camp Pendleton, San Diego. He given prior notice to prepare "we are going to war", per order of George Bush. The General knows the truth about the Iraq war.
I like watching debates on Youtube. Intelligence squared, C Span, WINEP debates, Doha debates, well you get the idea. We need a debate about the surge in Iraq. I say that being against the surge is not way outside mainstream US opinion.
I want to see Rachel and an ally debate a hard core Neocon about that failed policy.
Anyone know if this documentary will be made available online?
I served in Vietnam and was outraged over the Gulf of Tonkin information that eventually came out. I thought, well at least it can never happen again. Congress will stop it before it begins.
So what happens? Congress AGAIN gives up their duty to oversee the President when it comes to going to war. That's WHY the Constitution was written the way it was. So one person wouldn't be making the decision to go to war.
If the GOP keeps being @!$%#s about various things, Obama should simply bring W/Cheney/Rumsfeld to trial.
#16, My husband was in the Air Force during the Vietnam war. Thanks for your service.
IMO, Cheney, Bush and Rummy are war criminals.
There is an old saying that "Soldiers are the tools of foreign policy not the makers of it"
The problem with that is that particularly over the last 40 years or so it's not even foreign policy that they are used for.
I have long been of the opinion that the big push by the Bush administration for going into Iraq was predicated on a belief that it (the war) would be "Cheep and Easy" meaning that they essentially thought they were going to pick up where they left off in 1992 and that while there were certainly going to be some casualties (200-400) it was going to be seen as a major political "Victory" here in the US that would help them consolidate the "Permanent Republican Majority" they had talked themselves into believing they could create.
In the grand scale of things as bad as the war became and as bad as things got I still think the most morally repugnant part of the whole decision making process is that they were willing to sacrifice the lives of 200-400 people just to make themselves look good to voters
In Clintons last year in office the stock market dropped and lay-offs started. Only Catapilter held its value. Then I hear they had military orders to fill as Join-the-Army TV adds were everywhere. A war was a foot. Did not know where. But……
Not very enthusiastic work there from Chuck Todd. Checking his Blackberry during this segment.
Would willful ignorance or even participation by these people in 9/11 really be a surprise ? I think not.....
Johnny you are indeed free to conclude whatever you like. But we are also free to opine that you are someone who does not read much work from reputable sources.
The administration simply did not read or understand the intelligence reports. A terrible oversight.
Actually the 9/11 conspiracy people do raise some interesting points. I don't know that I go that far, but I've always thought it was allowed to happen, just as Pearl Harbor was allowed to happen to 'unite the country.' It certainly did do that.
I don't believe the administration knew exactly what day it would happen, and I don't think they anticipated how bad it would be, but Bush did spend the month of August in Texas, then went to Florida. Coincidence? Lucky? Maybe, but it certainly did provide a good reason for the war in Iraq.
Was it Rove that made the statement about not wasting a good catastrophe?
Remember what it was like after 9/11? We lived in terror for years afterward, and the administration and the Republicans did everything possible to inflate and prolong that terror.
Haddie nuff #18.3
Read The Shock Doctrine by Naomi Klein. Bush and the rest were, and may still be, heavily into crisis or disaster Capitalism. She goes into that, including the aftermath of even hurricane Katrina, where they used that disaster as well, to further their agendas.
No doubt they were ruthless enough to "let it happen", esp. Cheney and Rummy. Bush............maybe a puppet who did not fully get it? I am puzzled by his personality, always was. Still am.
Good thing we aren't paying you to be in Congress then. Keep thinking those deep thoughts dud.
As excited as I am to see this documentary and Rachel and Staff get a Emmy Nomination. I am also bothered that in a way it may be moot because no matter what is revealed if there were crimes President Bush and Gang will never be prosecuted for anything.
You aren't the only one deeply bothered by this. As much as I adore our Pres and worked hard on both campaigns, one of my biggest disappointments will always be that he didn't do anything to prosecute the Bush Admin for war crimes. I understand trying to move on after an extremely difficult time for the country, but we needed some sort of accountability, for Iraq and Wall street. I think he would have been more respected by the righties as well if he had taken a more disciplinary tone towards those scandals.
Anyone with half a brain knew we were being lied to by the Bush/Cheney administration about why we needed to invade Iraq.
To understand why the Bush /Cheney administration really wanted to invade Iraq one only needed to look at the "conditions" Iraq had to agree to after the invasion was complete and we had installed an "interim government". These conditions were drawn up by Bush/Cheney before the invasion and the key of those conditions was that of requireing the Iraq government to sign a "production sharing agreement" which would in effect have turned most all Iraq's oils developement revenues over to the American oil companies who would be coming in to "help" iraq develope those oil reserves. Fortunately for Iraq, the interim government put in place after the invasion refused to sign this production sharing agreement.
Here is a link that tells a little more about that production sharing agreement.
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:r9zC6yXNlIIJ:www.somaliawatch.org/archivenov05/051125602.htm+production+sharing+conditions+placed+on+Iraq+by+the+United+States+after+the+2003+invasion&cd=14&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&source=www.google.com
The realization that thousands of lives were lost because of lies from the Bush/Cheney adminstration in order to secure profits for the oil industry through the mandate that Iraq sign this production sharing agreement has to go down in the history books as the lowest and most discracefull point in our history and justice has yet to be served against those who perpretated it.
It's just sickening.
So you are saying Hillary Clinton has less than "half a brain"? Real easy to be an armchair quarterback on Iraq, IMHO we should not be making such superlative statements. I feel we should instead look to the Barbara Boxers who had the courage to push back for praise. Iraq was a lesson to be learned from about alot including trust, but I'm afraid we will be a barren room if we exclude all who were hoodwinked...
Invading a nation to steel its oil is stupid. It only makes sense if you are the ones getting someone else to pay the costs while you get the oil cheap.
A few IED in the right places and you get a lot of big fires and no oil production. The cost of protecting the oil production system will always be more than the oil is worth. Just buy it you idiots.
Unless you are willing to kill them all. But, the UN would frown on that, and even our staunchest friends would abandon us if we set out to do that.
And the 911 Commission Report, run and controlled by the same people who gave us the Iraq invasion is an unbiased, clear and concise document which leaves no stone unturned, gives us a clear picture of the guilty and is in fact a closed book, Dude? And you worry about what I read?
Nice try on the ole strawman there Johnny... like people actually clammor for government reports about any subject. Tell you what... produce one single "Commission Report" that is widely accepted as factual on a bipartisan basis on any subject whatsoever... then I might entertain the idea that you are a serious person... Short of that you are just another disengenuous person on an internet comment board...
I would like to point out that the date 9/11 is a date which history hinges on, Mass Murder, Wars with hundreds of thousands if not millions of deaths can be directly attributed to that day. And to equate that investigation with others is intellectually lazy and down rite cowardly. On top of that, any one who obscures inquiry into this event should be considered morally bankrupt...If you really believe there is nothing more to be learned from digging further into this, you should have the decency to shut up....
See Johhny, thats why nobody takes you government haters seriously on an intellectual basis. You don't have a foundation to complain about the 9/11 Commission when you distrust all government. What would you nuts do if they agreed with you, start loving the now-honest-in-your-eyes government? Of course you wouldn't...
There is a saying you get the government you deserve.... well Dude, you got it! If a more would hold their elected officials accountable, and not let it be run by special interests, and where the mainstream media can actually expose events,(not ten years later) we might have a decent government. What amazes me is how can Americans actually believe they have good government? Dude, lala land is where you belong, I just want to fight the good fight, for my planet, and all my people, at least that freedom is not completely extinguished, yet....
Odd? Hagel had been proved correct on all accounts and McCain has been proven wrong on all accounts. Why isn't McCain put up before a board and asked question why did his support all the lies he knew to be lies e when it comes to two wars? Most of all if McCain knew were Osama was hiding why didn't he tell us where?
McCain's credibility is nil! He should be putting as much effort into investigating 911 and the war of lies (Iraq) instead of Bengazi. I thank McCain for being a hero in Viet Nam, however, he is now a non-credible disgrace. And that is coming from a vet!!!
But will these people be held accoutable? Will they be prosecuted? Will they go to prison as MURDERERS?
Probably not. They will continue--at least Cheney will continue--to spread their lies. He does it every time he appears on a TV show.
It would be fascinating to see this rogues gallery actually tried at The Hague, considering the evidence, whats the odds on them getting off?
Every time I see the faces of Chenney, Rumsfeld, Bush, and Rice, I see an "AXIS OF EVIL". This is the equivilent of Germany not holding Adolf and the Nazi party responsible for what they did to humanity. I wonder how Americans would feel if someone did this to us? And no, Iraq had nothing to do with 911, so no come backs on that because that will destroy your credibility. They should be prosecuted with the same ferocity that they use on harmless MJ smokers in Idaho!!
Does anybody here realize BARACK OBAMA and ERIC HOLDER also bear some resposibility for letting these War Criminals essentailly walk free ?..
Torture , illegal spying of the American people , secret prison camps across the world , Indefinite detention , suspension of Habeas Corpus !...
Just ask ERIC HOLDER !...
The list goes on and on !... And NOT one of them is locked up ?....
I mean, these guys in any other Western country would have been charged with treason and sent to the Hague or would have been given life imprisonment !...
But here in the United States only the "Little people" are required to abied by the "Rule of Law"..
The 1% or the 2% or those with salaries above $400,000 a year are considered ABOVE THE LAW !...
I respectfully disagree with your statement "these guys in any other Western country would have been charged with treason and sent to the Hague or would have been given life imprisonment" because it is not true, not since WW2. Keep in mind that the white, southern conservative segement of the US was already freaked out because a somewhat black man had been elected to the highest office in the land. If he had actually tried to do as you suggest, I cannot imagine how this country would have been torn even further apart. None of this stuff is simple, so many were involved in the lies, many of whom are no doubt in office and in very powerful positions. One does not upset an entire cart to get rid of the bad eggs at the bottom...I am not agreeing they should be let off scot free, but I do get that it is much more complicated than any of us will ever know in full detail. Besides, Obama is almost as Center as Reagan was...
well almost, except that Reagan also killed unions. Obama is not that cold hearted.
Unfortunately, those "bad eggs" were at the top of the cart and driving it, too. They should have been prosecuted, and it's not too late.
You are right!! Holders a guy who would rather take your guns away and give them to drug cartel though. In my book he is no better. Especially for not holding our American "Axis of Evil" responsible for crimes against humanity. It is what we would demand if someone did this to us!!!
Imagine if you will that Bush, Chaney, Rumsfield and Rice were all Democrats and this surfaced.
I wonder if any of them would be tried for something.
Meanwhile we hear nothing but B.S. about the Benghazi attack. That's a needle in the haystack compared to this fiasco.
Dear Democrats,
Please promise me one thing. You love life, and except that even loving an idiot is ok. Now my problem is, not all democarts are women!! All women think this way. But not all democrats are women. So that must mean that a few men must really do love their women !? That is impossible. Women are ...are....well they bore me with having to think about the future. Girl ... that is a long ways off ! So lets just think of the next five minutes ok?? girls ...what do they know?
OK I will now try the Bush Crew for @!$%#ty salesmanship !! For a non-politico this may sound like a small crime. Not so. @!$%#ty salesmanship is a crime of honor. You really believed that ??, oh my... they bought that crap, now what ?? Bush was cutting wood with a chain saw. Our president. Was he waiting for orders ? Well yeah.......hello america......Our problem is we now have a real american acting as president. One that asks questions as must about lives as dollars. No wonder Hagel is feared. He is not afraid of an open debate. An honorable man.
@chuck1936
If it was the other way around and it had been Barack Obama who had commited all these war crimes and had sanction all these unconstitutional events that took place , I guarantee you right now Michele Obama would be visiting him at the Hague !.. No doubt about it !..
Dear TRMS thank you for editing over my cuss words….my bad. However your version looks worse than my cussing…just saying …or maybe I should thank you. ...still not sure....
Well, If you can make believe Barack Obama could walk up to Michele and say I want to start a new war and she not slap him. Then your argument could almost made sense. Michele is no one to toy with. She may be only armed with hope and caring and a law degree, but she is also a woman. And you know how they can be