Not only is tonight your chance to see the most-viewed documentary in MSNBC history if you missed it the first time, but if you were among those who were left wanting more, tonight's broadcast is followed in the 10 p.m. ET hour by "Talking Hubris," a roundtable discussion of how the Bush administration convinced the country to go to war in Iraq. Chris Hayes hosts Chris Matthews, Alex Wagner, David Corn and Michael Isikoff for that.
In addition to the Hubris material on this blog, the folks at MSNBC Documentaries have put together this page, that includes some video material that wasn't included in the final cut of Hubris, as well as recent essays from Michael Isikoff. I understand the clips for "Talking Hubris" will be posted there after it airs as well.
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I wish they could have made it at least a two hour show. I would still like to hear more about the reasons "why" the neocons wanted Iraq. I'd love to see this on NBC but I am delighted just to have this.
war profiteers want war because of war profits.
heatherzinha,
Money and power is surely behind it all. They went in with no exit stratedgy, because an exit was not in the plan. They planned on staying and controlling the country through some sort of fake democracy.
It bears repeating that much of the US public including liberals were not enthusiastic about information that contradicted the "circle the wagons" in time of crisis reflexive reaction to 9/11. From credible sources like Colin Powell, we heard scare stories of Yellow Cake, biotoxins, and reports of tubes that could only be used for generating weapons grade uranium. Dems on the intelligence committee did not contradict these reports. There was commentary, but it was not popular. We weren't enlightened fact based liberals and preferred our preconceptions to be confirmed just as we do now. Nowadays, it is not comfortable to hear fair criticism of the President from the left- regarding drones, coddling wall street, or the XL pipeline.
Donahue for example had people like Harry Belafonte on his show, at one point comparing Colin Powell to a "House Slave" who was permitted to serve with many privileges in the plantation mansion so long as he did exactly what was expected of him.
Yet the US establishment did not want to hear it. Although he had the strongest rated show at the time, MSNBC fired Donahue and began hiring right wing commentators so they could go to the right of Fox in order to cash in on the high ratings they were achieving. The "marketing" call being made at the time was that the anti-war message was unpopular, and viewers were tuning out.
More on this sordid tale at NY Magazine: "Chasing Fox" (The loud, cartoonish blood sport that's engorged MSNBC, exhausted CNN—and is making our body politic delirious.)
Just curious, but why is it still the case that FOX is on Comcast basic cable, but not MSNBC? After buying out GE, Comcast does own NBC/Universal completely, so they could maximize the revenue from advertising on MSNBC by opening them to a wider audience right?
I don't get it. Why FOX but not MSNBC? How about giving people a choice- because most often the only all news channel for low income folks is FOX.
And that is generating serious social and political dysfunction.
Disgusting KockSuckers - Why arent they in prison Yet ? GoofBalls !
All of these slimey basturds Suckered All of America and other parts of the World into this Bogus War for their own personal benefits and little Georgie kept his promise to his father to Kill S.H. ! These Punk-a$$-Idiots need to be charged with War-Crimes and the death of Many American lives and also Iraqi Lives ! They should be charged for their Crimes in BOTH Countries !
Dr. Rachel Maddow,
Thank you so much for this wonderful expose of these war criminals. I am watching it for the second time. It is so excellent.
Thanks to all involved in the production.
Great discussion, though guys- really, please- turn off the afterburners- this was not Crossfire.
Wagner nailed the psychology of the little man with a gun in his hand. We have proceeded from republicans who played cowboys in movies to politicians who play cowboys in geo politics. It took just the passage of two presidents to generate a dunderhead who walks in the Hubris commercial, in a studied manner thrusting his knees out to the sides as if his knees were so accustomed to having a horse betweeen them that they naturally went that direction.
Hands out to the side. Ready to draw.
"Bring it."
"Heh heh heh." (in Jon Stewart's satirical pronunciation)
I think it bears saying that not EVERYONE was fooled. There were protest marches against the war before and after the war. Those were dark times in US history. It was like you were a criminal and against America if you didn't agree with the war. Remember the Dixie Chicks. I have seen our country bound by fear and I hope I never see it again. Geo. Bush I hope you and your whole family stay under your rock.
One thing to MSNBC, please don't have staff walk pass the studio during filmings/tapings. I saw two staff people walk passed the studio and look in to see what was going on. Not sure if they were coming in or going out. It just looked tacky for a 1st rate news channel such as MSNBC. Thanks for hearing me.
29 Dem Senators voted for the authorization of force, and 21 against. Is it really so surprising that the supposedly wiser and more deliberative upper body was the one rushing to war? Can we at long last recognize that Dem Senators demonstrate stupidity more frequently than their Dem peers in the House? It was the House where the Dem strength of opposition showed strong. 126 voted against, and only 82 voted for.
But it's like Murphy said. Most people don't have time to give Cheney or Wolfowitz's fate much thought. Most of America has more immediate concerns and has moved on. It's like talking about how Polk stole the southwestern states of the US from Mexico in a war of choice- How the US repeatedly stole Indian lands. No one cares any more- it's water under the bridge. Somehow we flatter ourselves that our former "great" leaders who led us in these wars were of a different breed than the weaselly Bush and his spineless prevaricators.
They are cut from the same cloth.
For initiation of wars, Jackson and Polk will number among our most evil Presidents. I don't think Cheney or the other weasels will "win" because unlike Jackson and Polk, there will be a rich set of recordings of their very words. Cheney will be reviled for his perversion of executive authority, and Bush for the simple mindedness of his vainglorious posturing.
I'm so glad that you were able to move on and not care anymore about the Iraq war. However, those among us who deal with permanent injury, each and every day, or loss of a loved one via this war, are not so lucky. Neither are the rest of us who love and care about them and want to see justice served to those who caused this useless suffering. We still have to live with the Iraq war every single day.
That doesn't even address the cost of this war that we haven't even begun to pay for. That is another current reality, relating to the Iraq War, that isn't going away anytime soon.
I just don't see how one can think the Iraq War is so far in the past when we are still living the consequences.
Mark VanGelder: One of the things that bugs me the most about the current right wing obsession with cutting spending and cutting taxes for the rich is that they refuse to pay for veterans' benefits. Especially those who came home minus limbs need to be fully compensated: all their medical bills paid, rehabilitation, lifetime benefits. Widows and children supported. We, the American people, whether we supported the war or not are responsible for the injuries to those who fought in our name.
Not all of us were fooled by the propaganda. I, like Chris Mathews, had my doubts about the war, and like Chris I never wanted to be wrong more in my life. Unfortunately, we were not wrong.
One of the main weaknesses I see is that Americans are not very healthy eaters. They consume information that makes them feel good, even though the distorted perspectives they are internalizing may be junk information.
63% of republicans believe that Iraq had WMD. This is despite the fact that 79.3% of these republicans polled state that they "follow news about world affairs and foreign policy issues" either "very closely" or "somewhat closely" (Dartmouth 2012 poll)
Understand what this means. Today, knowing all we know, if republicans controlled both the House and Senate as they did in the 107th Congress, the GOP electorate would be urging their representatives to vote to give Bush the power to go to war. Let that sink in. We cannot say this is primarily a media problem of failure to get out proper information. Something is seriously wrong about how US viewers are processing information.
Education is confused with knowing information like what particular fancy words, formulas and other conceptual constructs mean. 56.7% of those republicans either had degrees or some university education. So it is not "Education". Knowing "stuff" is not enough, because if are unable to discern junk information from truth, then really, your cognitive functions have failed. Our brains got big so that we could discern where the hidden food was, and had to get good at separating camouflage- junk information- from that which was true.
David Corn made the point that it was getting out that the Bush administration was distorting facts, but that these stories published in the back pages of the newspaper. What is interesting was that even in a front page story with a headline that supported Bush messaging, there could be information in the story that indicated the dubious nature of the intelligence data. Consider the following picture captioned Old Woman, versus Young Woman: (oldwomanyoungwoman picture). Like Woodward investigating John Belushi, you can empirically capture the same data and walk with a completely different picture of reality. (Slate)
It may have been true that the purpose of the fear campaign was to make it politically impossible to vote against authorization of force, but let's confront the reality of this study. FOX News is all that is sufficient to convince republicans of information that not even 10 years of hindsight, admissions and truth telling can overcome.
If the GOP ever gets control of Congress and the Presidency again, they are well positioned to undertake any level of insane policies.
How can we correct that 63% problem? It is not sufficient for media outlets to present information. Cognition- the ability to detect the camouflage and see the quarry of truth is at a low level in the United States. Skills of cognition are not being taught in the schools. We instead focus and measure information acquisition.
And that has severe social and political consequences.
Is that hyperbole? Just talk to some of those 63%.
Part of our problem is too much emphasis in our education system on science and math and not enough on such disciplines as writing and critical reading, the sort of things that used to be taught in English classes. When I went to College in the early 60s and taught college English in the late 60s and early 70s, a standard text in second semester English was A Preface to Critical Reading by Richard Altick. This book was originally written in the 50s to counter Communist propaganda.
We put too much emphasis in our schools on passing on information and not enough on how to evaluate that information. We should be teaching students how to think; not what to think. They need to learn how to get information and evaluate it and not just have them learn certain pieces of information.
"With all thy knowing, get thee understanding."
"Fancy words"?
Really?
What exactly does that mean?
Greed is a very blinding intoxicant. Education is irrelevant.
I'll be watching. Can't wait to hear the discussion afterwards.
I'm recording both of them
Larry 74,
Good idea. I wish I had thought to do that.
I believe this is the URL to the Hubris Podcast:
http://msnbcpod.vo.llnwd.net/l1/video/podcast/pdv_maddow_netcast_m4v-02-19-2013-202100.m4v
same LINK
OOPS!! SORRY >THIS IS THE CORRECT LINK TO HUBRIS< THE ABOVE LINK IS TO THE FOLLOWING NIGHTS SHOW:
http://msnbcpod.vo.llnwd.net/l1/video/podcast/pdv_maddow_netcast_m4v-02-18-2013-200917.m4v
The way dates are displayed in Zune is a bit confusing, still I should pay closer attention. And play the episode to verify before posting the link.
ALSO
THIS LINK should get you to the first part of the follow up show. The segments following the first should auto stream (maybe with ads between).
http://www.nbcnews.com/id/49263362#51295096
.
During Viet Nam, crys of daddy-war-bucks rang out. It was profit-by-killing. It could never happen again...they said.....good luck on that one.
“…the Republican Party committed suicide…” Randi Rhodes 3-19-13
10 years since the Bush Crime Family #*@`ed over the American PEOPLE:
“10th Anniversary of the WAR in Iraq, oh oh, here we go again… the Bush/Cheney politicHo’s & war profiteers are coming up from their private bomb shelters and gated communities to revise history, trying to save their legacies, right? HOW SAD!
Now, Al Gore was right about Iraq… But the so-called news people are reporting on what Jeb Bush said, “George W. kept Americans safe” …yea, except for 9/11, anthrax attacks, DC sniper, journalists/contractors getting decapitated, Corporate Crime Wave, job outsourcing, economic collapse, financial terrorism, environmental degradation, gutting regulatory agencies, etc…
I know it’s a stretch… but for arguments sake lets say Americans can conveniently forget about the 6590+ dead, 32,000+ wounded US soldiers and only GOD knows how many Iraqis and Afghanis. Forget that Bush/Cheney/Rumsfeld/Rove took the good will of the world after 9/11 and turned it to HATE and mistrust.
How these chicken hawks sent our troops into battle WITHOUT PROPER ARMOR or any clear cut plan beyond George W. declaring “Mission Accomplished”. Never mind military strategists didn’t think it was a good idea to get rid of the ONE dictator (Saddam Hussein) in the Middle East that had an IRON BOOT on the throat of fanatical Islam. Remember… the terrorist, Osama bin Lunatic, degenerates that caused 9/11?
Forget IRAN? Bush/Cheney/Rumsfeld/Rove and Fox News can have victory in Iraq when they can stroll through Iraq WITHOUT an armored division and air support to keep them from harm… y’know, like Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad has done several times since the USA got rid of his mortal enemy Saddam Hussein.
FORGET the 5 TRILLION dollars wasted or the 17 BILLION dollars missing or the 175,000 weapons misplaced or all the arms dealers and WAR profiteers that milked our national treasury. FORGET about all the Constitutional VIOLATIONS, domestic spying, bold lying, Justice Dept. bias, depleted uranium, Walter Reed, Abu Ghraib, soldiers getting electrocuted in showers due to shoddy military contractor work…
YEAaaaaa… once again, imagine we live in a country where almost half the population is dumber than a tree full of monkeys. These citizens are so damn ignorant they allowed some of the worst criminals in history bend them over and #*~/ them in the *** for 8 years. Even worse these numbskulls LIKED IT so much they want MORE!
MORE of the waste, fraud, abuse, lies, incompetence, scandal, fear mongering, sexual deviancy, corruption, off-shore tax evasion, media consolidation, arms dealing, reckless economics, deregulation, war profiteering, deregulation, Bush/Paulson corporate welfare, Constitutional violations and a Corporate Crime Wave of EPIC proportions. THE GREATEST LOOTING OF A NATION’S WEALTH AND RESOURCES IN THE HISTORY OF MANKIND!
IF THE READER CAN POSSIBLY FORGET ALL THAT… then the WORST thing the Bush Administration DID was NOT raise taxes to pay for the WARS, tax cuts for the rich and Medicare Part iDiot. You want to hear about Fiscal Irresponsibility GRANDE?
Instead, Bush/Cheney borrowed from COMMUNIST China and Saudi Arabia (at outrageous interest rates) AND put OUR CHILDREN AND GRANDCHILDREN under the thumb of MASSIVE FOREIGN DEBT! They ruined your children’s future but a majority of pussies haven’t done a damn thing to demand accountability.
If there’s ANYONE out there who can explain away Bush/Cheney Administration CRIMES please reply because I’m NOT GETTING IT! Funny how we never heard any complaints from the so-called Tea Party crowd while Bush/Cheney were spending our national wealth like a crack HO with a credit card.
These Rove arch-criminals are free and the innocent Don Siegelman is in jail? EQUAL JUSTICE UNDER THE LAW my @$$! I am somebody who fights back against the true enemies of FREEDOM”
spoact.blogspot.com
©2012 by SPQR
Right On! But the American people are not the enemy. They are guilty of laziness and maybe lack of citizenship but I still believe that when the truth becomes obvious they will do the right thing and demand prosecution of the real guilty parties, whether it's the war or the banksters. We just have to keep pushing to get the truth out to everyone who will listen and you just did your part. Thanks for your patriotism!
They are war criminals, and should have been tried. What a heartless, ruthless bunch of warmongers, with no concern for the terrible loss of life, the terrible cost to our country.
We must learn from this never to trust any neo-con again, or anyone else who tries to take us to war.
Sorry you're dreaming the prior poster tagged most Americans - they are dumber than rocks.
Do not forget that they also borrowed from the SS Trust Fund. Now they want to cut benefits so they will not have to pay it back.
Eric Cantor said, "promises may have to be broken".
Great post, SpoAct...
So true! How else could so many people be persuaded, via propaganda, to vote against their own interests, deny scientific facts, impose religious dogma, and usurp civil rights.
"YEAaaaaa… once again, imagine we live in a country where almost half the population is dumber than a tree full of monkeys. These citizens are so damn ignorant they allowed some of the worst criminals in history bend them over and #*~/ them in the *** for 8 years. Even worse these numbskulls LIKED IT so much they want MORE!"
Amen to that.
lol, AMEN!
have you seen the leaked watercolor paintings that George W. bush has painted?? Those ones in the bathroom?
lets have a discussion of what those pictures mean...I want to know what it reveals about is psyche. I have my theories but it would make an interesting little segment. don't you think?
"Things not looking good for President Bush. His approval rating has dropped so low the only thing he's above now is the law." --Jay Leno
These people are traitors, pure and simple.
Documentaries like this make me wish I still had Cable or Dish TV.
But then I get over it, in like a minute.
"KUALA LUMPUR: The War Crimes Tribunal has convicted former US President George W. Bush and seven of his associates as war criminals for torture and inhumane treatment of war crime victims at US military facilities."
"However, being a tribunal of conscience, the five-member panel chaired by tribunal president judge Lamin Mohd Yunus had no power to enforce or impose custodial sentence on the convicted eight."
commondreams.org/headline/2012/05/13
Liberty and Justice for some,,,,
Malaysia, you are bold and courageous as well as consistent with the precedents sent in both the Nuremberg and Tokyo Tribunals where powlitical leaders were hung for "crimes against humanity". I seem to remember that the United States took a rather hard line position that the punishment should make it clear the the world community would make acts of aggression a sever crime. Where is that country now? Where a President having sex is impeached and a President taking the country to WAR under false pretenses gets off scot free even after fumbling on 9/11 and taking the country to the brink of financial ruin and the deaths of tens of thousands of Afghanis and Iraqis in addition to thousands of American troops and contractors!
Where a President having sex is impeached
No A president that lied under oath got impeached. Having sex with a dog is acceptable.
Hunkering down, first viewing... but I wish we could have a do-over. I remember all this like it was yesterday... scaring people in shock- ugh.
when is the Bush administration going to be charged for war crimes? If they were to travel to many countries, they would be arrested.
I didn't believe the Bush Administration at the time and now, especially after hearing about Nixon's actions relating to Vietnam, firmly believe the Bush administration had a hand in 9-11. Why, to create the opportunity to set this Wag-the-Dog war into motion. I don't even believe their war had anything to do with politics - I believe it was all about the money, to hand over trillions in taxpayer money to their friends in the private military industrial complex.
And still no mention of Tomas Young and Phil Donahue. http://www.democracynow.org/2013/3/21/exclusive_dying_iraq_war_veteran_tomas
http://www.democracynow.org/2013/3/21/phil_donahue_on_his_2003_firing
Come on Steve and Rachel. Stand up to your NBC bosses.
I agree with previous posters Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz, and Condolezza Rice all should be charged with war crimes. How many Americans died because of the lies these people fed the American people. I didn't believe them back then, but people looked at you as if you were crazy when you voiced your thoughts. Most of the people interviewed that are all speaking out now, why did they not speak up more publicly back then? Too I now believe that these 5 individuals were capable of anything, including having a hand in 9-11. It gave them the excuse to proceed with their plot. And I don't believe there war had anything to do with politics but was all about money. The transfer of trillions of dollars to their friends in the private for-profit military industrial complex.
All congressmen and senators who voted yes to go to war against Iraq should also have to meet with the thousands of parents, spouses, etc. who lost family members because they didn't have the intestinal fortitude to do what was right. To all of these people, and let's not forget Tenet and Powell, the loss of all these American lives is nothing more than collateral damage.
Congress does not have the same info the WH does. Not even close.
HUBRIS
If you had asked an electrical engineer about aluminum tubes I would have said.
YES they are for the construction of a high-voltage substation. We use such tubes to connect high voltage transformers to high voltage circuit breakers. The voltages are 220,000 volts to 400,000 volts. These tubes would have to have a SMOOTH external surface without any nicks or scratches. I noticed that the tubes were covered with protective material to prevent such defects during shipment and handling.
We could use the help of an electrical engineer. Victims' holmes are rewired to create an high voltage atmosphere to facilitate further discomfort. They and their children are intentionally place in risky situations with local codes and safety requirement not observed due to the power of those involved. We could let you see these environments.
I bet you are correct on the purpose for those tubes.
They wanted to find information that supported their narrative, though. So, they would not have been asking for answers different from the scary one they wanted us to feel.
For Steven Richetts below and others:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8trm0Fo2EQE
This is 31 minutes, so I imagine that is it without ads.
amazing program. Treason is the word that kept coming to mind. Thank you for giving this book life and giving this information to many more people.
Rachel,
Your analogy is wrong. This is not a Vietnam example. This is a Mexican War example. Please read the A Wicked War. The Iraq War is exactly a duplicate of Polk and the slave owning south pushing for a war with Mexico so they could expand slavery. The sales pitch was more sophisticated, but basically the same guilt trip method: will you support the nation or our enemies. Even today most Americans believe Mexico sparked the war instead of vice versa.
Steve O'Donoghue, Sacramento
Who is Alex Wagner, and why is she defending the Bush Administration? Obviously she didn't have any relatives who went to war and died because of their lies.
Alex was not defending them. I am positive that you mis-understood what ever you think she said, listen again on your computer and then explain what you think she said.
My 1st viewing. WOW.
Rachel you and the film makers did the world a favor. This should be put into the national archives. Where can I buy it?
Hey panelists -- don't forget the Downing Street memo -- the Brits said we were fixing the facts around the policy, not vice-versa.
I've been trying to get Rachel et. al. to do exactly this. I heard the Brit press the DAY the Dossier came out. I was in England at the time. http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2003/feb/08/politics.iraq
Downing St admits blunder on Iraq dossier
The is the dossier that Powell referred to in UN speech.
Get used to it people, politicians lie! It's what they do. I bet none of you calling for Bush to be tried & convicted of war crimes remember the Clinton Administration swearing up & down that Iraq had WMDs, do ya......
Just like a bunch of liberals to look past a democrats actions, but trying to crucify a republican for the same thing.
Iraq did have wmd but destroyed them in the 90's.
As a war supporter how do you feel about all the deaths and destroyed lives that you voted for. Casting blame on Clinton will not wash your bloody vote away, will it.
Which 'none of you' are you referring to?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=yJYbgouqlMw
...and it should be pursued relentlessly.
Rich... Did Clinton lead the nation into war?
Is there a way to watch this on the website?
The truth about this war is not shocking to us. The ongoing use of US women and children as forced human research objects has been going on for over 17 years. The CIA agents, Military officers (assisting with this being done as Special operations), other government agencies such as the National Lab, leaders of CIA and DOD, and US Universities, are all left over torture supporters. We have supporting documents that this has been going on for over 17 years. The torture techniques are based on Nazi Germany POW "medical" experimentation. The cover-up is carried out in "MOB" like stratedgies. The only organization that has actually tried to help victims was George Town University, who tried until the CIA took over and stopped them. The anger of their medical professionals are reflected in their medical documentation of victims' abuse. Like victims of the Tuskegee Experiments, these victims are not allowed to receive therapeutic medical treatment. When victims were at George Town they even tried to warn them by putting up the CIA seal in several places in their parking garage. We have documentation of the involvement of ETSU, UT, and UVA.
If you are going to make extra ordinary claims, provide extraordinary proof to back them. You provided nothing except assertions.